Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Petter on 16 May 2014, 20:27:02
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Hi guys.
Yesterday when I wanted to go home from work my Omega didn't want to start... ??? It startet for two secunds then died, and did not start again.
So I walked home to get some tools, and my other Omega. When I came back I tryed to start the engine again... and wonders of all wonders, it started perfectly.. so I drove it home and walked back to get my other omega. Then this morning when I tried to start the V6 it would not start... I can't figure out what is wrong with it. There are no fault codes... It seems like the immobilizer is active... ??? I tested the fuelpump reley and it is ok, but do not click in when I try to start the engine...I have new bateries in the key. And there are plenty of fuel in the tank. Does anybody have any idea of what can cause this symptoms.... :(
Petter from Norway
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Classic symptoms of failing crank sensor
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without a doubt it will be the crankshaft sensor
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yup, crank sensor, genuine GM only for these :y
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Seems like you all agree that it is the crank sensor..
Are there any way I can test the sensor before buying a new one?
Petter
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You can't test them, your description is exactly right symptoms of one failing :y
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I got a new camshaftsensor.
Full of hope I installed it
Then I tryed to start the engine.... nothing.. it would't start at all... :(
What is wrong whit my dear Omega????
Still no fault codes...
The sensor is geunuine GM made by BOCH, exactly same itemnumber as the old one..
Petter frm Norway
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Seems like you all agree that it is the crank sensor..
Are there any way I can test the sensor before buying a new one?
Petter
I got a new camshaftsensor.
Full of hope I installed it
Then I tryed to start the engine.... nothing.. it would't start at all... :(
What is wrong whit my dear Omega????
Still no fault codes...
The sensor is geunuine GM made by BOCH, exactly same itemnumber as the old one..
Petter frm Norway
Crank sensor (CPS). Sits low down at the back of the engine behind the oil filter.
Cam sensor - fits high up at the front of the engine.
Which did you change? it is the crank sensor (CPS) that needed changing :-\
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Seems like you all agree that it is the crank sensor..
Are there any way I can test the sensor before buying a new one?
Petter
I got a new camshaftsensor.
Full of hope I installed it
Then I tryed to start the engine.... nothing.. it would't start at all... :(
What is wrong whit my dear Omega????
Still no fault codes...
The sensor is geunuine GM made by BOCH, exactly same itemnumber as the old one..
Petter frm Norway
Crank sensor (CPS). Sits low down at the back of the engine behind the oil filter.
Cam sensor - fits high up at the front of the engine.
Which did you change? it is the crank sensor (CPS) that needed changing :-\
oh.. sorry my mistake
Crank Sensor.. the one next to oilfilter.
Also talked to the opel garage and they also said it is the Crank Sensor
So I was quite disapointed when the car didn't start after changing it.
Petter from Norway
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Had one last year ob a 2.6 brand new Crank Sensor fittec, but wouldn't start untill the ECU Codes where cleared. :-\
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Had one last year ob a 2.6 brand new Crank Sensor fittec, but wouldn't start untill the ECU Codes where cleared. :-\
Ok thanks!
so I will try to diskonect the batery over night and have a try again tomorrow.. ???
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Always remember just because a part is new. Does not guarantee it is not faulty
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Can you hear the fuel pump prime when turning on the ignition?
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Can you hear the fuel pump prime when turning on the ignition?
No nothing, and the fuel relee doesn't clikk inn, so no power to the fuelpump. :'(
By the way...I disconected the battery last evening and left it over night to reset ECU, but still the engine would not start..
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Can you hear the fuel pump prime when turning on the ignition?
No nothing, and the fuel relee doesn't clikk inn, so no power to the fuelpump. :'(
By the way...I disconected the battery last evening and left it over night to reset ECU, but still the engine would not start..
Should hear (or feel) the Fuel Relay (one of the Purple ones) and the Throttle Body click on, with the first time with Ing key on. This is controled from the ECU from memory.
I had issues in the past with 2.6 and 3.2 refusing to start, especially when they have been stood for a while.
Check the following -
Good Battery Volts, specially when turning the engine over.
Good battery volts at the Purple relays.
Check the Earth strap on the ECU housing, if poss check any voltage difference between the ECU Earth point and the Battery Neg (0v), with a voltmeter, or use a jump lead between the ECU Earth and or Ov Chassis and Battery Neg.
Transponder Issues?, Cheek the chips are present in the Keys, another Key?, pull off, check and reconnect the blue Connecter of the Transponder module under the Ing Barrel.
Sometimes with Transponder issues, or when you have pulled things apart, you have to go though a recycle, so try this a couple of time in between attempted starting. Key out Ing., open drivers Door, close Door, lock, unlock, open door, close door, Key back in Ing to start.
Chris.
Edit, forgot to ask, any codes present, with a reader or peddle trick, any flashing EML or Spanner light with just the Ing on, any unusual clicking with the Ing on?
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Edit, forgot to ask, any codes present, with a reader or peddle trick, any flashing EML or Spanner light with just the Ing on, any unusual clicking with the Ing on?
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No vises whit pedaltrick. There is one clikk when ignition is turned on.
Bateryvoltage only 11,6V. So put on charge noe. Exactly where is the transpondermodule lokated?
Petter from Norway
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Edit, forgot to ask, any codes present, with a reader or peddle trick, any flashing EML or Spanner light with just the Ing on, any unusual clicking with the Ing on?
No vises whit pedaltrick. There is one clikk when ignition is turned on.
Bateryvoltage only 11,6V. So put on charge noe. Exactly where is the transpondermodule lokated?
Petter from Norway
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Cant remember if theres one or two clicks, Ing on, 1 x Purple relay goes on for Ing Voltage, 2nd Furple relay should then click on for Fuel pump and and Click for the Throttle Body, although Ive had a 3.2 where the later would only click on when the Engine is being cranked over.
Transponder Module is under the Ing. Barrel, plastic covers off, your see it Black Box with a blue connecter going in the back of it.
Whats your other Omega? 2.6 or 3.2?
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Edit, forgot to ask, any codes present, with a reader or peddle trick, any flashing EML or Spanner light with just the Ing on, any unusual clicking with the Ing on?
No vises whit pedaltrick. There is one clikk when ignition is turned on.
Bateryvoltage only 11,6V. So put on charge noe. Exactly where is the transpondermodule lokated?
Petter from Norway
Cant remember if theres one or two clicks, Ing on, 1 x Purple relay goes on for Ing Voltage, 2nd Furple relay should then click on for Fuel pump and and Click for the Throttle Body, although Ive had a 3.2 where the later would only click on when the Engine is being cranked over.
Transponder Module is under the Ing. Barrel, plastic covers off, your see it Black Box with a blue connecter going in the back of it.
Whats your other Omega? 2.6 or 3.2?
[/quote]
My otheromega is minifacelift 2.0 .. the X20XEV engine..
if the relay clikk in shuldn't there be 12V on fuse 18? because there are 0V .
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Edit, forgot to ask, any codes present, with a reader or peddle trick, any flashing EML or Spanner light with just the Ing on, any unusual clicking with the Ing on?
No vises whit pedaltrick. There is one clikk when ignition is turned on.
Bateryvoltage only 11,6V. So put on charge noe. Exactly where is the transpondermodule lokated?
Petter from Norway
Cant remember if theres one or two clicks, Ing on, 1 x Purple relay goes on for Ing Voltage, 2nd Furple relay should then click on for Fuel pump and and Click for the Throttle Body, although Ive had a 3.2 where the later would only click on when the Engine is being cranked over.
Transponder Module is under the Ing. Barrel, plastic covers off, your see it Black Box with a blue connecter going in the back of it.
Whats your other Omega? 2.6 or 3.2?
My otheromega is minifacelift 2.0 .. the X20XEV engine..
if the relay clikk in shuldn't there be 12V on fuse 18? because there are 0V .
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2.0, ok, forget that one, was thinking of an ECU swop, but no good.
Fuse 18, no idea what that is (thinking Fuel Pump possible), if your going to check volts, check them on the relay pins, ie 12v feeding the Relays contacts either side, but I cant remember if the relay(s) are +12v driven or 0v grounded when activated.
By all means check your Fuses and Fuel pump voltage feeds, but from experience I would say problem could be -,
Crank Sensor (which you have changed) or a associated code that needs clearing.
Transponder Issue.
ECU or Loom Wirring issue, Purple Relays etc.
If Auto, also try moving Shift lever slightly around in P and N, whilst trying to start.
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I have charged the battery, checked the transponderconektion, ECU ground to battery negative pole (0 ohm), changed battery in both my keys, changed Cranck Sensor, tested the fuel reley, moved the Shift lever while trying to start the engine.. still it would not start.. it turns over and all the lights in the dashboard turn off.. only motorlamp stay on when I try to start..And no codes when I do the pedaltrick.... mabye the crankshaftsensor I got is defect?
Petter from Norway
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I have charged the battery, checked the transponderconektion, ECU ground to battery negative pole (0 ohm), changed battery in both my keys, changed Cranck Sensor, tested the fuel reley, moved the Shift lever while trying to start the engine.. still it would not start.. it turns over and all the lights in the dashboard turn off.. only motorlamp stay on when I try to start..And no codes when I do the pedaltrick.... mabye the crankshaftsensor I got is defect?
Petter from Norway
Does the tachometer/revcounter needle move when the engine is cranking?
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I have charged the battery, checked the transponderconektion, ECU ground to battery negative pole (0 ohm), changed battery in both my keys, changed Cranck Sensor, tested the fuel reley, moved the Shift lever while trying to start the engine.. still it would not start.. it turns over and all the lights in the dashboard turn off.. only motorlamp stay on when I try to start..And no codes when I do the pedaltrick.... mabye the crankshaftsensor I got is defect?
Petter from Norway
Does the tachometer/revcounter needle move when the engine is cranking?
not much ..only sligthly.. like a few millimeter..
Petter From Norway
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??? this fault is a mystery to me.. Could the sensor I got be faulty? In that case... it's a pity because I got it from Berlin and it will take ages to get a new one.. :(
Petter
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I have charged the battery, checked the transponderconektion, ECU ground to battery negative pole (0 ohm), changed battery in both my keys, changed Cranck Sensor, tested the fuel reley, moved the Shift lever while trying to start the engine.. still it would not start.. it turns over and all the lights in the dashboard turn off.. only motorlamp stay on when I try to start..And no codes when I do the pedaltrick.... mabye the crankshaftsensor I got is defect?
Petter from Norway
Does the tachometer/revcounter needle move when the engine is cranking?
not much ..only sligthly.. like a few millimeter..
Petter From Norway
Cranking speed is very slow so the needle wouldn't move much. - When I have had crank sensors fail the needle didn't move at all.
I think you need to check everything you have done already,
- check that you didn't forget to plug everything back together when you fitted the sensor,
- check that there is at least 10 litres of fuel in the tank,
- check that the big round connector between the engine and battery is securely plugged in and the locking ring is tight
- check that all the fuse links in the box on top of the battery are good
- check that the crimped electrical connections on the big fat cables are good (including earth [masse] straps)
finally - the Omega chucks in lots of fuel for a cold start - might be worth pulling some spark plugs to see if the engine is flooded.
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??? this fault is a mystery to me.. Could the sensor I got be faulty? In that case... it's a pity because I got it from Berlin and it will take ages to get a new one.. :(
Petter
It can happen but it is unusual for a genuine sensor to be DOA
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Can you hear the fuel pump prime when turning on the ignition?
No nothing, and the fuel relee doesn't clikk inn, so no power to the fuelpump. :'(
By the way...I disconected the battery last evening and left it over night to reset ECU, but still the engine would not start..
Disconnecting the battery doesn't clear the codes, you need a good code reader to do that.
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As I see it now, after triplecheking everything inkluding cheking the sparkplugs, it is only one thing that can cause this problem... the ECU needs to be reset and all faultcodes removed (even though the pedal trick showes no faultcodes.)
???
Petter
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As I see it now, after triplecheking everything inkluding cheking the sparkplugs, it is only one thing that can cause this problem... the ECU needs to be reset and all faultcodes removed (even though the pedal trick showes no faultcodes.)
???
Petter
You kind of can check the Crank Sensor operation but you need an Oscilloscope,what you could try is with the CS disconnected measure 2 of the pins, its the middle one and one of the outer pins, cant remember which one now, your need a DVM though, measure between the 2 pins, it should read around 1K, so anything reading around 800 to 1200 Ohms, with the DVM still connected wave a Steel Screwdriver or something over the Crank Sensor, about 1mm away, it will try and stick to the Sensor so put a few sheets of paper over the Sensor Tip, you should see a very slight change in reading about 50 Ohms or so as the steel passes over the sensor.
I have measured a couple of failed Sensors and the ones I had read about 4 Mohms so almost open circuit, problem is the Sensors normally go intermittent rather than just fail.
From the ECU side of the of the CS, Im guessing (and I am guessing here), that you should see +v and 0v on 2 of the 3 pins with Ing on, the 3rd pin being the Sensor Signal.
You could try the above with your new and old sensor, might give some clue.
Out of interest, and I dont know the answer to this, is the CS in your 2.0 the same type?, if yes could that not be swapped?
If you could prove your CS is ok, then guessing you could move on.
By the way did you do the Key Transponder recycle thing I mentioned a few post up.
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As I see it now, after triplecheking everything inkluding cheking the sparkplugs, it is only one thing that can cause this problem... the ECU needs to be reset and all faultcodes removed (even though the pedal trick showes no faultcodes.)
???
Petter
You kind of can check the Crank Sensor operation but you need an Oscilloscope,what you could try is with the CS disconnected measure 2 of the pins, its the middle one and one of the outer pins, cant remember which one now, your need a DVM though, measure between the 2 pins, it should read around 1K, so anything reading around 800 to 1200 Ohms, with the DVM still connected wave a Steel Screwdriver or something over the Crank Sensor, about 1mm away, it will try and stick to the Sensor so put a few sheets of paper over the Sensor Tip, you should see a very slight change in reading about 50 Ohms or so as the steel passes over the sensor.
I have measured a couple of failed Sensors and the ones I had read about 4 Mohms so almost open circuit, problem is the Sensors normally go intermittent rather than just fail.
From the ECU side of the of the CS, Im guessing (and I am guessing here), that you should see +v and 0v on 2 of the 3 pins with Ing on, the 3rd pin being the Sensor Signal.
You could try the above with your new and old sensor, might give some clue.
Out of interest, and I dont know the answer to this, is the CS in your 2.0 the same type?, if yes could that not be swapped?
If you could prove your CS is ok, then guessing you could move on.
By the way did you do the Key Transponder recycle thing I mentioned a few post up.
Yes I did try the key Transponder recycle.. no luck
Today I had a look at the spark plugs they were ok..
I measured the old CS 921ohm
I don't think the CS from 2.0 liter will fit :-\
I don't have any tehc2 nearby so I have decided to ask the opelgarage to repair the car.. I need this car to bring my kids to kindergarden and school and to get my self to work. :-\
Petter
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About to send you a PM Peter.
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I have now tried to connect an OBD2 to the car, and it communicates with the ECU.
However it didn't find any fault codes, but I did run the erase sequence anyway. And disconnected the battery from the car.
I thougth I will leave it like this for at least 24 hours.
One question.. will there be any voltage on the fuelpump when the ignition is turned on, or will this voltage come when the ECU gets signal form Crank Sensor?
Petter
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Have you tried both keys?
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yepp all 3 of them...
Petter
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Thats a strange problem you have there. Good luck with it.
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Hi Petter, sorry about your dead Omega. 12 days and still no life. Do not despair. there is much wisdom on this forum.
Have you checked for fuel supply and spark at plug when cranking engine? If either is absent, fault is either dead crank sensor (most likely), dead ECU of wiring loom fault. Or possibly water in fuel.
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A long shot, but when my ecu temperature sensor failed, the car wouldn't start unless you removed fuse 18.
This was because the temperature sensor was telling the ecu that it was -30°C, so it was flooding the engine. Without the fuse, the engine was able to start and run, but only briefly.
The other thing is fuel level vs the exact position of the car. If on any kind of slope, you'll need at least a quarter tank on the gauge :y
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Fuel pressure check via schrader valve??????
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status tonight: I put on some more fuel so now there are at least 40 liters. ::)
I measured the voltage at fuse 18 (fuelpump) while turning ignition and it is 12V , so the fuelpump should get power. :y
When I checked the sparkplugs I noticed that there were no pressure in the fuel line and the sparkplugs were all dry and clean.
thinking of it I just remembered that when I parked the car there were some clonking sound from the rear end of the car, ???could there be something wrong with the fuelpump? how do I check that? ???
Petter from Norway
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Fuel pump test is easy :y
Give the tank a couple of thumps from underneath whilst an assistant tries to start the car... if it fires then you need a new pump...
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Take off the fuel feed pipe at the engine end, point it into a cup, and have someone turn the ignition key. Cup should fill with fuel.
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That's messy... and confirms nothing other than that the pump is capable of pumping :-\
Had a 2.0 efi Granada which had a weak pump, fuel was getting to the fuel fail, but at about half the required pressure...
That Petter has power to the pump and dry plugs suggests that the pump may indeed be dead :y
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To the best of my Knowledge, on a 2.6 and 3.2 fuel pump relay is fed from the ECU while cranking, unlike the non DBW through Ing. switch on.
Im 90% convinced if its not a faulty replacement Crank Sensor, which is fitted, then Petter has a faulty over night ECU problem. :-\
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I think the 2.6/3.2 also prime the fuel pump for a couple of seconds when the ignition is switched on whereas the 2.5/3.0 only start the pump when they see input from the crank sensor.
Also, with input from the crank sensor, the gauges on the dashboard "bounce" when you start cranking the engine. If there is no input from the crank sensor this doesn't happen.
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I had a similar problem and found out it was the fuel filter. Over time it blocked and was starving the engine of fuel. I would check the fuel pump first and then the fuel filter Petter.
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After several hours in aquard positions I managed to change the fuelfilter.
Then I tried to start the engine. It startes but runs very porly, so I gues the fuelpump is gone. I ordered a new one from autodeler.co.no .I got 77% discount. :y
Will keep you updated...
Petter from Norway
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Hopefully that will see it sorted :y
iirc, my cranksensor failed at around the same time as my fuel pump, so might be possible that when one starts to fail, it strains the other :-\ could just be coincidence though...
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Did you get it sorted Petter?
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After almost a month I finaly got good news. After changing fuelpump the car started but run porly, and I got faultcode , P0305. So I changed the sparkplugs . Started the engine and problem solved :y
Thank you all in here for your help in sorting this problem.
Petter . ;D
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Glade you got it sorted Petter. Well done. :y
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Glade you got it sorted Petter. Well done. :y
Indeed :y I bet that was starting to do your bonce in ::)
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Yes, glad its sorted Peter. :y
Until the next time then. :)
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Well done, Petter. Sorry it took so long.
As said in message 34, with a dead engine checking fuel supply and spark is always helpful. If both absent - quite likely on modern car - suspect the electronics. If no fuel supply, a long lead from battery terminal to pump will test pump.