Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 02 November 2014, 15:40:21
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Doin the stat today. All done. B bolt in first time. New stat,new transfer pipe o rings, everything done up nice n tight................... massive fekkin leak from front of the engine at the front on to the tray and a stream just behind the a/c pump.
Tightened b bolt to even tighter.nope still pissing.
undid b bolt to see if everythin was in right order as engine mount looked slightly to the right....now the b bolt is just spinning and not tightening.
FFS
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What is the condition of the radiator hose onto the transfer pipe? Rubber hoses don't like the leaky cam-covers that are an Omega flaw. I suspect all the manipulation needed to remove and replace it has finished it off. The good news is that a new one is about £25.
My Omega hates me too; after replacing the suspension bushes yesterday I now have the ABS/TC warning lights on. No fault codes listed, and good, matching signals from the wheel sensors. I'm going to have a proper look at it next week, as I've had enough of the bloody thing for now.
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Thanks nick. nice to see someone else can relate to me lol
Well the first thing I noticed was the cam belt making an awful noise and I thought ''hold on a sec''......... so clearly the belt was getting coolant on it :'( I then noticed a steady stream straight down from back of a/c pump and then a load on the tray.... also dripping
it doesn't start dripping immediately from switch on which makes me think the stat is leaking....needing time for the coolantto get to that channel.
I was dubious of the gasket for the stat. very thin. what are others stat gaskets like? :-\
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pstop hose did have to come off for me to get the transfer pipe out but it looks in good condition
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When I did my stat Andy C gave me several O ring seals as it depends on the housing supplied as to which one will fit. :(
As to the B bolt.. has the thread in the head stripped, preventing it tightening?
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Thanks Kev,
Sad to say it's a pattern stat. So I only have myself to blame if it's that. However, it is genuine part as ''GM'' has been ground off and the housing and stat is identical to what I pulled off. It's just the o ring was a lot thinner than the OE one that was on there.
Re the b bolt.... I honestly don't know. I swear on my ma's life it went in real nice at first and tightened nicely. I only then took it out, refitted it and now it's just spinning....however I put no undue force on it at any time so I'm wondering if it's not even in!! bearing inmind the engine mount stillmoves about.
if I have stripped it.... reckon ill get a tap in there? i cant believe this has even happened. went soooo well :'(
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Can i just clarify something guys.
The exact order of things held on by the b bolt is as follows...
From cylinder head to the right...
cylinder head, lifting eye, dip stick bracket and transfer pipe.
if these are around wrong (i dont think its the case but just checking) will the transfer pipe not tighten enough?
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My money is on the top hose where it connects to the end of the transfer pipe.As said they dont like being pulled around too much and chances are it is secured with a jubilee clip as access for the GM spring clip is allbut impossible so the jubilee might of left a split in the rubber which wasnt noticed on refit.
Sounds like it needs pulling apart again to have a proper look but if the B bolt is not tightening it sounds like the thread is damaged .You might be wise running a tap through it just to clean it up and see if it is bitting ,if not options are an insert to repair thread or you might be able to get a slightly thicker bolt to take, but either way the bolt needs to be secure as otherwise the transfer pipe will pull seals away.
Stat housing to head gasket seemed very thin to me when I replaced mine but it does seal..might be worth running a small sealant bead around..the grey oil cooler sealant would be favourite.Both rubber 0 transfer pipe only require a bit of moisure to seal so universal spit etc is good enough and pushed home tight.
Fingers crossed you get it sorted especially that thread in the head
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Amba, thanks so much for that info! That really helps.
I've got no problem re-tapping the hole and running a die over the bolt / replacing the bolt. It's just access as to whether i'll get a tap in there at all :(
Got visions of having to remove the head to repair........ :(:(:(:(:(:(
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There is a thinner thermostat housing that needs a thinner rubber seal, IIRC. Sounds like you didn't get the right seal for the housing you have. No problem on it being a pattern part, though.
All you can do is take it apart again, trying not to spill water anywhere, and hope that you can see where the leak was. If you struggle, then pressurise the system a little through one of the throttle body coolant pipes (block the other one) and see if that helps.
I think you'd have to try some to strip the 'stard bolt, so guessing you just need to wiggle it a bit more to get everything lined up behind it.
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Thanks Kev! Yeah, the stat housing is exactly the same as the old one.... but new seal very thin and old one quite thick. wiould that be a leak right there???
i'll try and pressurise it as you say and see where we are from there. i may remove the b bolt tonight though to see if its in a state or not. if not then i can reasonably conclude the hole in the cylinder head is good and concentrate on the actual problem which is prob the stat seal.
im going to get some clear RTV to put on the stat housing and also got my dear old mum popping to vauxhall to pick up correct seals.
whats the thoughts on sealer on the transfer pipe o rings? i really dont want this to come apart again so seriously considering it
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When its all apart again >:( you can try the B bolt without anything obstructing it and see if it does do up properly as its not very tight anyway and more aids as a support so agree you would of needed alot of force to damage threads.
Wise putting extra sealant around stat housing although the correct seal ring should be adequate though,however it wont hurt.
Wouldnt really think sealant onto the transfer pipe is wise though as its a push seal and being 2 seal rings you would end up with sealant getting pushed everywhere then falling into the coolant when it has cured and possibly blocking small water ways so best advise is leave that as just the 2 0 rings as designed but a bit of universal sealant ( good old spit ) to aid pushing together wont hurt.
Sure you will sort it but do have a good look at the top hose where it joints the transfer pipe as if it has been secured with a jubilee clip it may of started chewing up the rubber and being a bit of a sod to put back on better getting it correct this time
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Thanks Ambe, really appreciate the info. :)
One final question......
I did do the 'B' bolt up real tight (as i thought it was this that was loose) and in my haste ive possibly overtightened it. if this is the case will i definitely see damage on the bolt?
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Sorry to say mate, you will probably have a little swarf on the bolt thread when you remove it :(
Any threads tapped into the heads are pretty soft and don't like too much abuse.
How do I know ?
One side of my plenum is held down with 13mm nuts and bolts because a certain hamfisted tosser (with large gonads) stripped the thread ::) :-[
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Oh dear :(:(:(
If i can get a tap in there though it will clean up right?????
if i cant get a tap in there and i cant get another bolt to fit............... anything else i can do other than head off, repair, refit? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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My money is that you just aren't in the hole right - as suggested already it's easy to feel like the bolt is winding in when in reality it's only caught in the various brackets it holds on.. then it just goes round and round and round and ..
I remember mine being a pain in the backside to get back in until a miracle happened and it just popped right in at the right angle, through all the right things and wound straight back in.
If you'd stripped it when tightening it I'd have expected you to notice at that point or at the very least when you tried to remove it, not on subsequently reinstalling it..
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Thanks Aaron. Yeah it tightened nicely.... then i removed it. and then it started to spin so you could wel be right.
I'll remove the bolt tonight and see what state its in. if its pristine can i guarantee ive not mashed up the thread in the cylinder head? :)
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I've never used any sealant on O Rings, although as said, a bit of spit helps to slide them in if it's a push fit condition.
I'd be looking at narrowing it down to a specific area, although if coolant is getting on the cambelt I'd expect the leak to be more inboard than outboard. Although in saying that, a poor fitting top hose would spray inboard due to the way it fits. :-\
Transfer pipe to top hose, check it's fully home/sealing ok?
Transfer pipe to stat, is it a good fit?
Thermostat itself, is there a chance that the seal moved out the groove on fitment, is it the correct seal, if new bolts were used are they the same length or have they bottomed out, were the faces of fitment clean, are the stat bodies the same thickness requiring different bolts etc etc.
It's got to come apart by the sound of it so all easily checkable and will hopefully become more apparent when it is apart. As for the B bolt, try it on its own first as already suggested. You'll know for sure then. :y
I'm sure you'll sort it. :y
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Thanks YZ :)
Stat houses are exactly the same as i compared them. So reusing bolts shouldnt have caused an issue.
Thin seal ring DID initially fall out and i noticed it put a bit of silicone grease (not sealer) to hold it in place so its certainly quite possible this moved again especially as it sounds like i got the wrong one :(
thanks for the info.... hopefully its just that seal ring :) if not i got a busy couple of weekends :o :o :o ::)
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Hi Webby, sorry to hear of your troubles.
Was it you in an earlier enquring thread about the the O rings being a loose fit? I have found that in the past, and have preferred to use O rings from an assortment of of O rings I have and seemed to fit better. I have changed three thermostats and never had a leak.
As to the B bolt, I have twice left off the lifting hook in despair. I have never removed an engine in my life. Who needs lifting hooks?
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Thanks for your input Terry :)
Are you saying that it will bolt up nicely even if i remove the engine lift eye? if so im going to get rid of it too!!!
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Stupid suggestion? If your bo;t proves to be ok, couldn't you put a chamfer on the end of the thread and clean it afterwards (put a nut on first, taper the end and then remove the nut), so that when you offer the bolt up for fitting it finds its own way home?
Ron.
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bo;t = bolt
I'm a bloke, so I can;t type!
Ron.
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Must be my keyboard that can't spell?
Ron.
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;D
Thanks BR :)
When you say chamfer..... you mean taper it? (sorry not up with the lingo :()
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The best way of doing it is to turn a short,straight length on the end of the bolt down to the thread minor diameter. This makes it easy to get the bolt straight in the hole before the threads engage. It does require a reasonably long female thread, and that might not be long enough in this case.
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The best way of doing it is to turn a short,straight length on the end of the bolt down to the thread minor diameter. This makes it easy to get the bolt straight in the hole before the threads engage. It does require a reasonably long female thread, and that might not be long enough in this case.
Ok, i apologise for being a reet dummy :( but i dont know what that means lol :( soz nick
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Try this: get an M8 bolt, and stand it on its head with the threads facing up. Now stack a short piece of 6mm rod on the end. That rod will hold the bolt straight in the hole, and enable you to start the thread easily. Please note, the 6mm is approximate, the actual diameter should be calculated/looked up, and actually be part of the bolt. Easy job for a lathe.
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PS will this stuff be ok to smear on the stat housing.....
http://www.halfords.com/motoring/paints-body-repairs/car-tape-glue-velcro/granville-silicone-sealant-clear-40g#tab3
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I found the biggest problem getting all the bits lined up was the thickness of the lifting eye as the hole was almost dead bolt diameter and left no room for error.
Quick simple solution was to run a 10mm drill through the lifting eye making that hole have much more tolerance to getting things lined up.It then took only a few minutes to put all back and tightened up nicely.Not sure what effect leaving the lifting eye out of the puzzle would have as it in effect increases the bolts length of travel into the head,but doudt very few of us will ever be relying on engine lifting eyes to remove 12 + year old engines out of 12 + year old cars
I used GM oil cooler plate grey sealant on my old 2.5,s thermostat housing and that never leaked,although only the correct 0 ring was fitted on my current 3.2 and that is bone dry also.
Pull it apart and see if the bolt tightens up without anything in place first then go from there.As for the leak it just needs a methodical strip down to investigate which bit isn,t sealing correctly.
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Thanks for your input Terry :)
Are you saying that it will bolt up nicely even if i remove the engine lift eye? if so im going to get rid of it too!!!
Yes. I have one so twice, once on a 3.0, once on a 3.2.
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Thanks for your input Terry :)
Are you saying that it will bolt up nicely even if i remove the engine lift eye? if so im going to get rid of it too!!!
Personally, I would refit it as intended... if the tube isn't mounted correctly it will leak. Alot.
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UPDATE:
So. Got the b bolt out. Inspected it. Threads not damaged but small pieces of swarf between the threads...presumably from where I'd cross threaded it :(
Decided ''oh well, ive fekked it now anyway'' so removed the lifting eye. This had a shit load of swarf around the bolt hole, also presumably from the head.
So, refitted b bolt. wouldn't go in and it was just spinning. so I tried something.... instead of fitting bolt, tightening and letting the dipstick/transfer pipe bracket be drawn up....I pushed on the dipstick tube so it and the t-pipe were flush with the head and then wound the bolt in.
it did get quite tight and I was thinking any moment that it was going to ''go limp'' and start getting looser (id fekked the threads anyway remember)..... but it wound right up to secure the pipe. ran the car, got it up to temp. felt the top hose and it got hot. and no leaks and no cambelt squeal.
took it for a drive and got back.... no leaks.
I count myself very very lucky. this was 100% luck compared to judgement in my opinion.
will of course keep my eye on it too.
am well aware that if it ever has to come out again I might not be so lucky.
thanks for all the help boys. really appreciated. :y
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Phew! Happy result, Webby. Well done.
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Glad your sorted Mr Bear and remember, even the best spanner man f**ks up ::) ;D
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Do you think therefore that the leak was from the transfer pipe?
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Thanks lads. Hopefully I haven't jinxed it and wake up to a pool of piss tomorrow ;D Touch wood
I would say it had to be from the T pipe...... either it wasn't seated in the stat housing properly or the engine lift eye was causing it to be off at an angle thus not sealing also. All I know is that with lift eye removed the bugger isn't leaking...again touch wood
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I'd say you got lucky there - likely only the first portion of thread is damaged and so you found good thread further down with more bolt engagement..
Just don't monkey it up to FT next time ;)
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Believe me Aaron, i know i'm a lucky bear! lol
drove to work this morning again no leaks and sounds, touch wood, real nice. :)
i dont anticipate it.... but if it starts leaking in the not too distant future.... i can get a tap in to the thread on the head no problem but im sure id have no way of turning it. anyone ever done this?
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Believe me Aaron, i know i'm a lucky bear! lol
drove to work this morning again no leaks and sounds, touch wood, real nice. :)
i dont anticipate it.... but if it starts leaking in the not too distant future.... i can get a tap in to the thread on the head no problem but im sure id have no way of turning it. anyone ever done this?
A tap won't fix a fubar thread Webby,it may clean up a slightly damaged thread to help start a bolt but anything more than that becomes a helicoil or similar job
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Mr The Bear, please be aware that there's a 2.5 V6 Elite in my local scrappy with 37k on the clock. It's an excellent sourse for parts that are in almost 'as new' condition. Stuff like hoses etc and other perishables I'm getting while I have the chance. If you want to take a drive up here, and get digging, feel free. Alternatively I can get you various bits and we can work out a price. :)
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Thanks DBG. I may just take you up on that.... can you PM me a price inc. delivery for the plenum? :)
Just gne for an hours' drive on my lunch. Coolant's dropped about 2cm but no signs of drippage. I hope this is just coolant finding its way round the engine as opposed to a 2cm an hour leak ::)
Henry...... so i cant use the tap to re-thread the threads in the head. if i find out that actually its weeping (at least its not pishing out lol) what do i need to do? :-\
cheers lads
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I'll be going in this weekend, keep you posted :y
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Thanks mate, as said just let me know the price so i can think about it... if its too much i may not be able to buy it as pretty broke til pay day :(
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Sounds like with the lifting eye thickness removed from the puzzle the thread has more to grip on so may be the saving grace there.
Would be an impossible task getting a heliciol in there without removing the head,so fingers crossed it all holds tight .
Slight drop in coolant is probaly to be expected as it finds its level and all air is removed.
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Hoping so Amba :)
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Yep, leave it alone now it's working. ;D
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Hasnt anybody got the space to store that car at the scrappy.It would be terrible if it was crushed and a lot of good stuff destroyed.
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I should add that I would make a contribution to save the car.
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Well as a shell it was perfectly good until the forklift picked it up, but as you say, there's lots of good stuff there. 'Disposables' like wishbones etc.. are pretty crusty, but the panels, as far as I can tell, are lovely. Lots and lots of the engine bits will be ending up in my boot by Sat afternoon :y so at least some of the car will be going on to 'save' another.
Shame the non-leather Elite interiors are so unwanted.. it's a velour interior, with memory seats, elec adjustable, heated etc.. sad no-one with a GLS/CD etc wouldn't want them. I suppose if you're so inclined to change your interior, you go for leather. If not, you don't care what seats you have, maybe?
The other problem is I can't post in the 'For Sale' Section, due to the parts not being mine for sale, and I can't name a price. How long to Elite self-levelling shocks tend to last? I'd have thought at 37k they've have at least another 20k left in them? There's Xenon bulbs in there, too. I know they're a ruddy fortune from Vx. Even 2nd hand they've got to be worth someone having them?
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Also I'd love to see it put aside somewhere safe, but.... rules. For green reasons, to save the planet we have to crush scrap cars after 3 months (sure that was the time limit one guy told me, but open to be corrected here) that way, instead of them leaking oil into the soil, and being smelly, we can destroy them. This meaning that none of them naughty second-hand parts should be fitted to a car and kill a fox or a whale. And that means we can manufacture new parts in factories across the world, then ship them in oil-burning supertankers here. Then, if they're been on the Dealer's shelf for 18 months unsold, then we can bin them! More landfill! :D
Hurray!! The world is saved doomed!
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Thanks DBG. I may just take you up on that.... can you PM me a price inc. delivery for the plenum? :)
Just gne for an hours' drive on my lunch. Coolant's dropped about 2cm but no signs of drippage. I hope this is just coolant finding its way round the engine as opposed to a 2cm an hour leak ::)
Henry...... so i cant use the tap to re-thread the threads in the head. if i find out that actually its weeping (at least its not pishing out lol) what do i need to do? :-\
cheers lads
You can use a tap to clean up a slightly damaged thread but if you've stripped it theres nothing left to repair,the only way then is a helicoil or go up a size and re tap for a bigger bolt :y
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Thanks DBG. I may just take you up on that.... can you PM me a price inc. delivery for the plenum? :)
Just gne for an hours' drive on my lunch. Coolant's dropped about 2cm but no signs of drippage. I hope this is just coolant finding its way round the engine as opposed to a 2cm an hour leak ::)
Henry...... so i cant use the tap to re-thread the threads in the head. if i find out that actually its weeping (at least its not pishing out lol) what do i need to do? :-\
cheers lads
You can use a tap to clean up a slightly damaged thread but if you've stripped it theres nothing left to repair,the only way then is a helicoil or go up a size and re tap for a bigger bolt :y
Thanks mate :y
If I find it's still pishing out (touch wood it held all the way home tonight as doesn't appear to have dropped any more) then I may as well attempt the tap.... If that doesn't work out then at least I tried. . . . Then head off ::) at least if it came to that it should go quicker than last time as it's only one head and I now know what I'm doing ::) :y
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Thanks nick. nice to see someone else can relate to me lol
Well the first thing I noticed was the cam belt making an awful noise and I thought ''hold on a sec''......... so clearly the belt was getting coolant on it :'( I then noticed a steady stream straight down from back of a/c pump and then a load on the tray.... also dripping
it doesn't start dripping immediately from switch on which makes me think the stat is leaking....needing time for the coolantto get to that channel.
I was dubious of the gasket for the stat. very thin. what are others stat gaskets like? :-\
I wonder how the water got on to the cam belt. Please enlighten me.
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Thanks nick. nice to see someone else can relate to me lol
Well the first thing I noticed was the cam belt making an awful noise and I thought ''hold on a sec''......... so clearly the belt was getting coolant on it :'( I then noticed a steady stream straight down from back of a/c pump and then a load on the tray.... also dripping
it doesn't start dripping immediately from switch on which makes me think the stat is leaking....needing time for the coolantto get to that channel.
I was dubious of the gasket for the stat. very thin. what are others stat gaskets like? :-\
I wonder how the water got on to the cam belt. Please enlighten me.
I assume through one of the cut outs in the rear cambelt cover for the idler assemblies. :-\