Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Broomies Mate on 15 November 2014, 21:22:49
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The 9-5 (thats a ScAAB to you) is LPG converted. It runs sweet on either Petrol or Gas.......... but;
On WOT through 3rd, the LPG decides to throw a fit and start beeping at me. At the same time, I get the EML light. Switch back to Petrol, and all is well in the world.
Drive it on LPG all day long without giving it a massive quantity of beans, and no troubles.
Stag300 kit.
Am I right in thinking it needs a tweak from the people in the know, or is there something seriously wrong?
I cant imagine this 2.3 Turbo will use any more fuel on WOT than a 3.0/3.2 Omega..... so surely this LPG kit should be able to keep up?
It has been serviced annually by Avon Autogas, and I will be taking it there for their advice, but I wanted to hear the opinions of those on here who really know their stuff.
Thankies! :y
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WOT? ::) :-\ ;D
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Probably the evapourator or the multivalve (if fitted) isn't up to the job - you need to check it isn't going lean, as that will quickly wreck the pistons...
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Probably the evapourator or the multivalve (if fitted) isn't up to the job - you need to check it isn't going lean, as that will quickly wreck the pistons...
I'm a complete LPG novice, but if anything, I'd say it was rich. I can definitely smell gas when sat in traffic, even though idle is bang on and very consistent.
I'll need a pro to look at it, and soon. :y
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Probably the evapourator or the multivalve (if fitted) isn't up to the job - you need to check it isn't going lean, as that will quickly wreck the pistons...
I'm a complete LPG novice, but if anything, I'd say it was rich. I can definitely smell gas when sat in traffic, even though idle is bang on and very consistent.
I'll need a pro to look at it, and soon. :y
I suspect its lean at WOT at high RPM ;)
If you have a Stag lead, you can plug a laptop in to see why its errored... ...and watch the lamdas ;)
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If you can smell gas you have a leak. Which might be your problem at wot.
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Now then! :D
I can watch the lambda's with my ELM327.
I can get STFT and LTFT readings..... I don't know enough about it to know what is 'in spec' and what would be wrong. I appreciate on Gas the FT's are not going to be 'true' but what would be acceptable?
Bear in mind this is quite a highly strung 4 pot with a decent sized Mitsubishi blower on it. :-\
None of the Saab forums I frequent have known of one of these being Gassed. It's a shame, because it runs sweet when not being hammered. Unfortunately, I have a digital foot.
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If you can smell gas you have a leak. Which might be your problem at wot.
This very much crossed my mind. There is a warranty with the car, but the garage I bought it from admitted they have no experience with LPG...... :-[
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Fuel trims, long term, anything beyond +/- 10 needs adjustment via the lpg Ecu multipliers. Imo. They might vary within thar range generally.
Short terms are of little help.
There is a guide by Kevin Wood re set up and commissioning etc, iirc.
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If you have a diags lead that would help greatly. The stag software is available from the polish web site. Don't download it from anywhere else.
With said lead, you could set it to switch back to petrol in the affected Rev range to get round any top end issues, but you need to investigate the smell, with some urgency. A squirty bottle with water and washing up liquid sprayed on the plumbing (sensibly) will give bubbles.
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If you have a diags lead that would help greatly. The stag software is available from the polish web site. Don't download it from anywhere else.
With said lead, you could set it to switch back to petrol in the affected Rev range to get round any top end issues, but you need to investigate the smell, with some urgency. A squirty bottle with water and washing up liquid sprayed on the plumbing (sensibly) will give bubbles.
Thanks Chris, I appreciate your knowledge and your concern.
I don;t currently have a lead, but I will have a look on the bay and buy one ASAP. If you wouldn't mind, could you possibly point me in the right direction for the S/W...... PM would be the best bet, I should imagine?
Thanks again.
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...and obviously, if you undo any gas pipes, which you will need to to repair any leaks, where gloves to avoid cold burns.
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If you have a diags lead that would help greatly. The stag software is available from the polish web site. Don't download it from anywhere else.
With said lead, you could set it to switch back to petrol in the affected Rev range to get round any top end issues, but you need to investigate the smell, with some urgency. A squirty bottle with water and washing up liquid sprayed on the plumbing (sensibly) will give bubbles.
Thanks Chris, I appreciate your knowledge and your concern.
I don;t currently have a lead, but I will have a look on the bay and buy one ASAP. If you wouldn't mind, could you possibly point me in the right direction for the S/W...... PM would be the best bet, I should imagine?
Thanks again.
You need to check exactly which Ecu is fitted to the car. There are several produced by stag...?
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All I can see in the paperwork is Stag300Premium.
The ECU is conveniently mounted just beneath the bonnet, so getting a serial number will be nice and easy.
Thanks.
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http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/297/stag-300-plus
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If the stag switched back to petrol it will have stored a code, so get hold of the software and see what's going on.
My guess is that the vapour pressure is dropping because, for some reason, it can't keep up with the demand from the engine. Being turbocharged, you don't want it to run lean, so don't give it the beans on gas until you've sorted it for now.
Smell of gas=leak, as said. :y
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If the stag switched back to petrol it will have stored a code, so get hold of the software and see what's going on.
My guess is that the vapour pressure is dropping because, for some reason, it can't keep up with the demand from the engine. Being turbocharged, you don't want it to run lean, so don't give it the beans on gas until you've sorted it for now.
Smell of gas=leak, as said. :y
Thanks Kevin - I'll leave the gas off until I can get a lead and find out what's going on.
http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/297/stag-300-plus
I think I love you a little bit.
I just need to learn how to use it now! ;D
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Just ordered this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAG-AUTOGAS-USB-Interface-Cable-for-STAG-4-200-300-LPG-Diagnostic-Cable-/321528068236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4adc90f88c
Hope it's ok for my kit.
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WOT? ::) :-\ ;D
Wide Open Throttle....... ::) Sigh! :-[ :D ;D
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WOT? ::) :-\ ;D
Wide Open Throttle....... ::) Sigh! :-[ :D ;D
I prefer 'Welly Of Throttle' ;D
Got to stick your boot in at times, eh? ;D ;D
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Yes it was a serious query, but I was laughing at the irony! ::) Love a bit of irony!! :y
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Just ordered this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAG-AUTOGAS-USB-Interface-Cable-for-STAG-4-200-300-LPG-Diagnostic-Cable-/321528068236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4adc90f88c
Hope it's ok for my kit.
Big black plug near the cable tie is the diagnostic port on the loom on the car. You'll need to trace the loom round and fund the corresponding plug. Might have a blue or yellow cap on it.
Most likely the same, but worth checking. That's the same as mine anyway.
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Just ordered this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAG-AUTOGAS-USB-Interface-Cable-for-STAG-4-200-300-LPG-Diagnostic-Cable-/321528068236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4adc90f88c
Hope it's ok for my kit.
Big black plug near the cable tie is the diagnostic port on the loom on the car. You'll need to trace the loom round and fund the corresponding plug. Might have a blue or yellow cap on it.
Most likely the same, but worth checking. That's the same as mine anyway.
Cheers Chris.
Reading isn't that far down the M4, so if I get stuck, I'll tap on your door! :-* :-* :-*
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Just ordered this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAG-AUTOGAS-USB-Interface-Cable-for-STAG-4-200-300-LPG-Diagnostic-Cable-/321528068236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4adc90f88c
Hope it's ok for my kit.
Big black plug near the cable tie is the diagnostic port on the loom on the car. You'll need to trace the loom round and fund the corresponding plug. Might have a blue or yellow cap on it.
Most likely the same, but worth checking. That's the same as mine anyway.
Cheers Chris.
Reading isn't that far down the M4, so if I get stuck, I'll tap on your door! :-* :-* :-*
Not with that approach you won't ;D
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Just ordered this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAG-AUTOGAS-USB-Interface-Cable-for-STAG-4-200-300-LPG-Diagnostic-Cable-/321528068236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4adc90f88c
Hope it's ok for my kit.
Big black plug near the cable tie is the diagnostic port on the loom on the car. You'll need to trace the loom round and fund the corresponding plug. Might have a blue or yellow cap on it.
Most likely the same, but worth checking. That's the same as mine anyway.
Cheers Chris.
Reading isn't that far down the M4, so if I get stuck, I'll tap on your door! :-* :-* :-*
Not with that approach you won't ;D
Love you! :-* :-* :-*
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...getting colder...
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...getting colder...
I'm first to put my hand in my pocket when going for a beer? :-\
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Seriously, you'd be better visiting Kevin in Alton. Much more experience in tuning generally anyway. ;)
....and he has a lead.
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All joking aside, I've bought the lead and I now (thanks to you) have the software.
I'll take it to the local specialists and get them to give it a good going over. It was serviced in May, with a new 'reg stem solenoid' whatever that may be.
They know the car, they have serviced it for the last 6 years, so hopefully, they can solve the problem and it won't cost a penny (the dealer will be paying).
I ordered the cable because I like to be able to see whats going on.
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...even so.
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The 9-5 (thats a ScAAB to you) is LPG converted. It runs sweet on either Petrol or Gas.......... but;
On WOT through 3rd, the LPG decides to throw a fit and start beeping at me. At the same time, I get the EML light. Switch back to Petrol, and all is well in the world.
Drive it on LPG all day long without giving it a massive quantity of beans, and no troubles.
Stag300 kit.
Am I right in thinking it needs a tweak from the people in the know, or is there something seriously wrong?
I cant imagine this 2.3 Turbo will use any more fuel on WOT than a 3.0/3.2 Omega..... so surely this LPG kit should be able to keep up?
It has been serviced annually by Avon Autogas, and I will be taking it there for their advice, but I wanted to hear the opinions of those on here who really know their stuff.
Thankies! :y
A 3.0/3.2 Omega is around 215 BHP - your SAAB around 250 BHP IIRC? so it will need more gas at WOT.
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The 9-5 (thats a ScAAB to you) is LPG converted. It runs sweet on either Petrol or Gas.......... but;
On WOT through 3rd, the LPG decides to throw a fit and start beeping at me. At the same time, I get the EML light. Switch back to Petrol, and all is well in the world.
Drive it on LPG all day long without giving it a massive quantity of beans, and no troubles.
Stag300 kit.
Am I right in thinking it needs a tweak from the people in the know, or is there something seriously wrong?
I cant imagine this 2.3 Turbo will use any more fuel on WOT than a 3.0/3.2 Omega..... so surely this LPG kit should be able to keep up?
It has been serviced annually by Avon Autogas, and I will be taking it there for their advice, but I wanted to hear the opinions of those on here who really know their stuff.
Thankies! :y
A 3.0/3.2 Omega is around 215 BHP - your SAAB around 250 BHP IIRC? so it will need more gas at WOT.
I was basing my assumption on the ScAAB being a far more efficient engine needing less fuelling for more output. I could be completely wrong though.
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.. and turbocharged engines need to run richer in the first place. ;)
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A 3.0/3.2 Omega is around 215 BHP - your SAAB around 250 BHP IIRC? so it will need more gas at WOT.
The critical figure is usually bhp per cylinder. The Saab is a 4 pot? So 63 vs 37 bhp per cylinder on the Omega. What sort of vap has it got? Is it rated for a demanding engine?
Then factor in the turbo as well. More than likely the vap has been compromised due to cost.
Smell as others have said is a leak. Check the multivalve, pressure relief and tubing. Often metal clamps come loose causing gas to leak into the cabin. Old multivalves and wonky joints leak. Use a soapy solution to identify leaks. Alternatively pay for a leak finding spray from Ebay. They are not usually worth the cost however.
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Fantastic advice as always from the OOF lot.
The problem I'm faced with is that nothing seems to be a problem until WOT at high speeds (literally, when it locks up in 3rd).
I'm going to be chasing my tail looking for a leak at idle, or even at high RPM when there is no load. Or am I being silly?
I know next to naff all when it comes to Gas. :'(
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The 9-5 (thats a ScAAB to you) is LPG converted. It runs sweet on either Petrol or Gas.......... but;
On WOT through 3rd, the LPG decides to throw a fit and start beeping at me. At the same time, I get the EML light. Switch back to Petrol, and all is well in the world.
Drive it on LPG all day long without giving it a massive quantity of beans, and no troubles.
Stag300 kit.
Am I right in thinking it needs a tweak from the people in the know, or is there something seriously wrong?
I cant imagine this 2.3 Turbo will use any more fuel on WOT than a 3.0/3.2 Omega..... so surely this LPG kit should be able to keep up?
It has been serviced annually by Avon Autogas, and I will be taking it there for their advice, but I wanted to hear the opinions of those on here who really know their stuff.
Thankies! :y
A 3.0/3.2 Omega is around 215 BHP - your SAAB around 250 BHP IIRC? so it will need more gas at WOT.
yep.. pretty sure stag injectors or ecu dont have the answer for this fuel demand.. common problem on turbo cars.. :-\
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If there's a jubilee clip involved, start there. They always leak by the worm housing.
...and that leak spray is hopeles ime. It's supposed to be prefered over water/soap due to corrosion issues, but if it doesn't work....
If you use water and detergent, follow round with some wd 40 after.
I'd guess the leak is going to be quite obvious if you can smell it in the car though.
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yep.. pretty sure stag injectors or ecu dont have the answer for this fuel demand.. common problem on turbo cars.. :-\
As far as I know (not much) these Stag 300 kits are the best from that era (2006).
Also, they are used on engines with far greater output than the 250BHP of mine.
I think the leak (under full boost and full torque) is causing the problem. Finding the leak it going to be easy or impossible. I'll just replace every fitting back from the inlet and see how that goes.
Or, and I hate to say it, hand the keys to a specialist and let them sort it. :'(
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I hate to say it, hand the keys to a specialist and let them sort it. :'(
If the dealer is paying, why not? ;)
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I hate to say it, hand the keys to a specialist and let them sort it. :'(
If the dealer is paying, why not? ;)
You have a good point, but I hate anyone else working on my cars. I'd love for the dealer to say "Yes, go and get it fixed and give me the bill".... that's never going to happen. I'd rather spend £80 myself for someone I trust (or at least a company I trust) to look over it than the dealer to pretend they have fixed it, do up every joint to FT ft-lb and leave me with a wreck at the end of it.
Arghhh - I should just leave it to them to fix, but I'm an asshole and I want to make sure it's right.
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Probably the evapourator or the multivalve (if fitted) isn't up to the job - you need to check it isn't going lean, as that will quickly wreck the pistons...
I'm a complete LPG novice, but if anything, I'd say it was rich. I can definitely smell gas when sat in traffic, even though idle is bang on and very consistent.
I'll need a pro to look at it, and soon. :y
The smell of the flue gas after combustion is quite pungent - are you sure that you are not smelling your own exhaust ? :-\
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looking at the figures stag 300 come with different reducers.. one 140 hp(alaska) and other 250 hp (magic jet) claimed..
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looking at the figures stag 300 come with different reducers.. one 140 hp(alaska) and other 250 hp (magic jet) claimed..
There is no reason why the one particular set of injectors must be used with one particilar reducer. It is not a set of components all made together. Far from it in fact. Although a kit would have to include one or other obviously. There is a list of possible injectors in the software as long as your arm. From kahin as used on the Prins kits to the basic moto gas type or whatever....
These are chosen primarily from the Max bhp from the engine as said. The rest is down to budget. One might think that one lpg kit is much the same as another given the bhp, but things like lag and poor set up creep in the cheaper you go.
Achieving a decent idle and still keeping up at wot becomes harder with cheaper kits.
For instance the Kahin and Hanna injectors do ALL their work on duration to achieve correct fuelling. Where as the cheaper motogas ones rely on the use of nozzels to hold an amount of back pressure in the line. These have to be drilled to the correct diameter fir each particular engine.
This can only be done by trial and error, although once done can be used on for all as on the 3.2 omegas here for example. They will all prety much run on a 1.2mm nozzel size iirc. As TB found out as his are too big, the idle and multipliers are quite differant to achieve a decent set over all.
Obviously initial drilling of nozzels to find the right size means whipping the inlet out each time. None of this malarky is necessary with the Hanna and Kahin (prinz) injectors.
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the main problem with turbo engines is that they dont demand fuel in a linear curve like the na .. instead when the turbo kicks in there is a very rapid (non linear ) fuel demand curve within a short range of rpm change.. and I dont think stag ecu maps are tested or developed against most turbo cars one by one.. thats practically impossible.. :-\
and thats valid if we assume all components functioning properly!
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The ecu will demand as much fuel as required. Flow rate of the fuel system is then very much a quality v cost issue, and hence experience of the installer is important. Luckily we have Kevin Wood for that type of thing. ;)
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I hate to say it, hand the keys to a specialist and let them sort it. :'(
If the dealer is paying, why not? ;)
When it comes to LPG garages, the word specialist is used a little too liberally. Even the LPGA qualified certifiers are pretty rubbish.
I can vouch for Kev, not just a gent but he really knows his onions with the LPG. Just be sure to cross his hand with a few Hobgoblins :y
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In terms of what I have;
Reducing Valve: Zavoli Zeta
Tank: Bormech 48Ltr
Control System: Stag 300 Premium
Injection Strip: Valtek
Looking at the service history, the main and vapour filters have been replaced every 2 years since install.
I know nothing about what I just typed! ;D
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looking at the figures stag 300 come with different reducers.. one 140 hp(alaska) and other 250 hp (magic jet) claimed..
There is no reason why the one particular set of injectors must be used with one particilar reducer. It is not a set of components all made together. Far from it in fact. Although a kit would have to include one or other obviously. There is a list of possible injectors in the software as long as your arm. From kahin as used on the Prins kits to the basic moto gas type or whatever....
These are chosen primarily from the Max bhp from the engine as said. The rest is down to budget. One might think that one lpg kit is much the same as another given the bhp, but things like lag and poor set up creep in the cheaper you go.
Achieving a decent idle and still keeping up at wot becomes harder with cheaper kits.
For instance the Kahin and Hanna injectors do ALL their work on duration to achieve correct fuelling. Where as the cheaper motogas ones rely on the use of nozzels to hold an amount of back pressure in the line. These have to be drilled to the correct diameter fir each particular engine.
This can only be done by trial and error, although once done can be used on for all as on the 3.2 omegas here for example. They will all prety much run on a 1.2mm nozzel size iirc. As TB found out as his are too big, the idle and multipliers are quite differant to achieve a decent set over all.
Obviously initial drilling of nozzels to find the right size means whipping the inlet out each time. None of this malarky is necessary with the Hanna and Kahin (prinz) injectors.
Please correct me if i'm wrong Chris but I thought the Inlet Manifold stubs were fitted 'full bore' as supplied & the nozzles that need drilling to size are fitted directly to the Injectors? Also, the instructions with my Stag 400 kit gave 2.4mm as optimal injector orifice up to 150Bhp so your stated 1.2mm seems way too small ??? :-\ ;)
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looking at the figures stag 300 come with different reducers.. one 140 hp(alaska) and other 250 hp (magic jet) claimed..
There is no reason why the one particular set of injectors must be used with one particilar reducer. It is not a set of components all made together. Far from it in fact. Although a kit would have to include one or other obviously. There is a list of possible injectors in the software as long as your arm. From kahin as used on the Prins kits to the basic moto gas type or whatever....
These are chosen primarily from the Max bhp from the engine as said. The rest is down to budget. One might think that one lpg kit is much the same as another given the bhp, but things like lag and poor set up creep in the cheaper you go.
Achieving a decent idle and still keeping up at wot becomes harder with cheaper kits.
For instance the Kahin and Hanna injectors do ALL their work on duration to achieve correct fuelling. Where as the cheaper motogas ones rely on the use of nozzels to hold an amount of back pressure in the line. These have to be drilled to the correct diameter fir each particular engine.
This can only be done by trial and error, although once done can be used on for all as on the 3.2 omegas here for example. They will all prety much run on a 1.2mm nozzel size iirc. As TB found out as his are too big, the idle and multipliers are quite differant to achieve a decent set over all.
Obviously initial drilling of nozzels to find the right size means whipping the inlet out each time. None of this malarky is necessary with the Hanna and Kahin (prinz) injectors.
Please correct me if i'm wrong Chris but I thought the Inlet Manifold stubs were fitted 'full bore' as supplied & the nozzles that need drilling to size are fitted directly to the Injectors? Also, the instructions with my Stag 400 kit gave 2.4mm as optimal injector orifice up to 150Bhp so your stated 1.2mm seems way too small ??? :-\ ;)
You are correct :y
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....or was as it 2.1mm? And the Hannas need differant bore pipes than the valtecs? Meaning the manifold needs to come out....
I did say iirc. ....iirc ;D
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I did say iirc. ....iirc ;D
Clearly you didn't (remember correctly) ;D ;D :y
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I did say iirc. ....iirc ;D
Clearly you didn't (remember correctly) ;D ;D :y
...what day is it? Not Friday that much I'm sure of. ;D
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I did say iirc. ....iirc ;D
Clearly you didn't (remember correctly) ;D ;D :y
...what day is it? Not Friday that much I'm sure of. ;D
Its most definitely Sunday. *sigh*, back to dealing with idiots tomorrow.
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A couple of points:
The exhaust goes through a cat, which will burn off any excess gas. I've never smelt gas through the exhaust of an LPG car. I think with the engine at full chat you'd leave it behind pretty quick too.
On a turbo car the LPG pressure follows the boost pressure, so the pipework is subject to much more pressure when the engine is on boost. So, if it's going to leak, that's when it'll be.
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A couple of points:
The exhaust goes through a cat, which will burn off any excess gas. I've never smelt gas through the exhaust of an LPG car. I think with the engine at full chat you'd leave it behind pretty quick too.
On a turbo car the LPG pressure follows the boost pressure, so the pipework is subject to much more pressure when the engine is on boost. So, if it's going to leak, that's when it'll be.
Thanks Kevin. All pointers are greatly appreciated.
The car goes like a scolded cat, so I'm quite sure there are no boost leaks. The Gauge (albeit not a true boost gauge) hits the red, which is where it should be (until the re-map, anyway).
There is definitely a smell of LPG when running on LPG. Alton is a fair old distance from Bristol, and whilst I would much, much prefer your expertise and (probably) lower cost diagnostics, I feel I have no other choice than to take it to the company who have been looking after the car for the last 8 years. :-\
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A couple of points:
The exhaust goes through a cat, which will burn off any excess gas. I've never smelt gas through the exhaust of an LPG car. I think with the engine at full chat you'd leave it behind pretty quick too. I was thinking of the smell I get when my central heating boiler is running and the wind blows the flue gas down to face level - not sure if the cat would change the nature of those gases :-\
On a turbo car the LPG pressure follows the boost pressure, so the pipework is subject to much more pressure when the engine is on boost. So, if it's going to leak, that's when it'll be. That makes sense - leak testing may be difficult if the pipes only leak at full boost though. Might be necessary to find another way to pressurise the gas pipes?
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In terms of what I have;
Reducing Valve: Zavoli Zeta
Tank: Bormech 48Ltr
Control System: Stag 300 Premium
Injection Strip: Valtek
Looking at the service history, the main and vapour filters have been replaced every 2 years since install.
I know nothing about what I just typed! ;D
http://www.zavoli.com/en/product/40-riduttori-zeta?lang=en
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In terms of what I have;
Reducing Valve: Zavoli Zeta
Tank: Bormech 48Ltr
Control System: Stag 300 Premium
Injection Strip: Valtek
Looking at the service history, the main and vapour filters have been replaced every 2 years since install.
I know nothing about what I just typed! ;D
http://www.zavoli.com/en/product/40-riduttori-zeta?lang=en
Thanks Cem. So we can safely say the Reducer is fit for 340BHP (1.4Bar). Even after the planned re-map, I'm looking at 280BHP / 350Nm. There must be a leak somewhere or the ECU has lost configuration for some reason?
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The older one was a Zeta S, the newer one is called Zeta N. I think the older S was rated for around 200bhp. What exactly have you got? I suspect it is a S and hence not capable of supplying the demands of your engine.
Re: the leak. Check the multivalve with some soapy liquid. Most common site of leak that lets you smell gas within the cabin.
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In my experience, tiny leaks produce a lot of smell. These sort of leaks would barely impact running (on a non turbo car, not sure what sort of gas pressures a turbo would need).
In my experience, this does sound like insuffucient (gas) fuelling at high RPM, which would point to underrated components, esp the evapourator/vapouriser/reducer or whatever else you want to call it, injectors or nozzle size. Its possible the pressure from evap has dropped (split diaphram?).
Get the lead on in whne it arrives, and see whats what. If it is underrated components, you have the option to get it to switch back to petrol at high RPM - you'll see in the software :y
I doubt the ECU has lost all its settings, as its unlikely the thing would run.
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Many thanks Gentlemen.
It's been in the car for 8 years, and has covered 60k Miles. It's obviously been used as the service history shows replacement filters etc.
I can only assume that it has been running well up until the owner had problems (2014), spent a shit load of money on replacing the TB, DIC, etc to find nothing fixed it and traded it in for something newer.
I'm in the fortunate position where all things which go wrong with this model of car have erroneously been replaced due to either bad information from the owner, or lack of research from the Indy.
From the above, I can deduce that the LPG components fitted are more than capable of handling the fuel delivery the engine needs. Interestingly, I've taken it for a 80mile blast tonight on Petrol. When I say blast, it was obviously on a private test track and in no way shape or form was a Civic Type R involved. Anyway, I digress.....
On Petrol, it runs bloody well, perfect in fact. On Gas it runs perfect, until you give it maximum beans..... Seems to fuel it ok until lock-up in 3rd, and then it all throws a wobbly, and back onto Petrol.
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As TB says, until I get my Diag lead, I don't know quite whats going wrong. The fault codes themselves will shed a lot of light on a completely unknown problem. :y
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Many thanks Gentlemen.
It's been in the car for 8 years, and has covered 60k Miles. It's obviously been used as the service history shows replacement filters etc.
I can only assume that it has been running well up until the owner had problems (2014), spent a shit load of money on replacing the TB, DIC, etc to find nothing fixed it and traded it in for something newer.
I'm in the fortunate position where all things which go wrong with this model of car have erroneously been replaced due to either bad information from the owner, or lack of research from the Indy.
From the above, I can deduce that the LPG components fitted are more than capable of handling the fuel delivery the engine needs. Interestingly, I've taken it for a 80mile blast tonight on Petrol. When I say blast, it was obviously on a private test track and in no way shape or form was a Civic Type R involved. Anyway, I digress.....
On Petrol, it runs bloody well, perfect in fact. On Gas it runs perfect, until you give it maximum beans..... Seems to fuel it ok until lock-up in 3rd, and then it all throws a wobbly, and back onto Petrol.
You may well find that the kit IS underspecced, and the owner was happy to use petrol when playing.
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Many thanks Gentlemen.
It's been in the car for 8 years, and has covered 60k Miles. It's obviously been used as the service history shows replacement filters etc.
I can only assume that it has been running well up until the owner had problems (2014), spent a shit load of money on replacing the TB, DIC, etc to find nothing fixed it and traded it in for something newer.
I'm in the fortunate position where all things which go wrong with this model of car have erroneously been replaced due to either bad information from the owner, or lack of research from the Indy.
From the above, I can deduce that the LPG components fitted are more than capable of handling the fuel delivery the engine needs. Interestingly, I've taken it for a 80mile blast tonight on Petrol. When I say blast, it was obviously on a private test track and in no way shape or form was a Civic Type R involved. Anyway, I digress.....
On Petrol, it runs bloody well, perfect in fact. On Gas it runs perfect, until you give it maximum beans..... Seems to fuel it ok until lock-up in 3rd, and then it all throws a wobbly, and back onto Petrol.
I have to disagree. I have seem some expensive installs with poor quality vaps/injectors/undersized tubing. Money doesnt always buy you a good LPG install.
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When you first connect diagnostics,save the current map on to your laptop,you might find the firmware hasnt been updated either.
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I have found the leak. It's quite audible (for anyone but me).
Here is a snap; The leak is from the Jubilee clip at the same place the Cable Tie is. I spent this afternoon looking for the leak, and when I found it, I just cable tied the pipes as a temporary measure until I get it sorted.
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/rossinbristol22/Saab/IMG_1858_zps2865912c.jpg)
Now, how do I fix it? I take it the system is under pressure. I can't just undo the hose and replace it, can I? I have a full tank of gas.
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cant see why not as gas should just stay put as solenoid wont open unless up to temp and engine running-will pop like a cork though--mine did when removed injectors to get to f""""""" coil pack
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Shouldn't be any problems just replacing the pipe, as Symes says.
There is a solaenoid at the tank that shuts off the gas from the tank when gas isn't running, so you should just get a minor escape when you pull the pipe off :y
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Mine has an automatic cut off valve that shuts when it loses power. So disconnect the battery or pull the fuse. :y or it might have a valve on the tank so that you can manually cut off the gas. ;)
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Thanks chaps.
I'm thinking that if I lift the bonnet in the morning and the 'hissing' has gone, then the pressure in the pipe has diminished. I just didn't know if there was a valve in the outlet of the tank or not.
Any special pipe for Gas, or is it normal hose?
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Thanks chaps.
I'm thinking that if I lift the bonnet in the morning and the 'hissing' has gone, then the pressure in the pipe has diminished. I just didn't know if there was a valve in the outlet of the tank or not.
Any special pipe for Gas, or is it normal hose?
I think the pipe has to meet a certain spec, can't remember what though! Have a browse round tinleytech to see if its mentioned there ;)
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Thanks chaps.
I'm thinking that if I lift the bonnet in the morning and the 'hissing' has gone, then the pressure in the pipe has diminished. I just didn't know if there was a valve in the outlet of the tank or not.
Any special pipe for Gas, or is it normal hose?
I think the pipe has to meet a certain spec, can't remember what though! Have a browse round tinleytech to see if its mentioned there ;)
Thank you TB. I'll replace it with some standard hose tomorrow and get some proper hose in the week.
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Hopefully solve your problem. :y
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Hopefully solve your problem. :y
Thanks, I hope so too. Looking at everything which has been installed, we are looking at 12mm pipe, not 8 or 10, massive injectors and a decent Reducer. I strongly believe this system was installed to cope with the engine. The leak is quite evident (if you can hear, which I struggle with).
It was only because I couldn't re-fit the new LED sidelight bulbs that I asked the Missus to come out and help (smaller hands). She said, "What's that sizzling noise?"..... Of course, I couldn't hear it.
When I placed my nose near where she said the 'sizzling' was, I could smell the gas. That smell is evident in the cabin under WOT, so I'm thinking (hoping) when the leak is sorted, the WOT problems will be sorted too.
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If it's leaking at the clip, simply cut the pipe end off, about 3/4" should do it, then wrap the pipe with a turn of insulation tape and refit the clip :y
ISO7480 is marine fuel hose standard, expect it's not too far removed from that, but Tinley Tech will put you straight in no time at all :y
They're a little pricey, but they know their onions and the service is, in my experience, beyond reproach :y
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Cheers Al. I don't think I've got enough length (story of my life) to 'make good' the hose. :-[
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It should stretch when warmed and manipulated :D
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Bloody jubilees. Oppsing useless bloody things. If they aren't leaking, they seize then leak.
I always remember a thread on here with Marks Dtm saying the gm water pipe clips where superior. I thought he was mad at the time, but was absolutely right, as usual.
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as TB said I dont think the amount of leak will cause this sharp power loss.. :-\
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Bloody jubilees. Oppsing useless bloody things. If they aren't leaking, they seize then leak.
I always remember a thread on here with Marks Dtm saying the gm water pipe clips where superior. I thought he was mad at the time, but was absolutely right, as usual.
I do use Junbilee clips and replace those bloody stupid hose clips wherever possible, but I do place a thin rubbed beneath them (such as a section of bicycle innter tube). As long as they are not over tightened, they work perfectly well. If ham fisted spanner monkeys who tighten them up to "FT when some" which causes the damage.
as TB said I dont think the amount of leak will cause this sharp power loss.. :-\
I'm optimistic. I have seen the receipt for the installation, and it wasn't done on the cheap. ;)
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Bloody jubilees. Oppsing useless bloody things. If they aren't leaking, they seize then leak.
I always remember a thread on here with Marks Dtm saying the gm water pipe clips where superior. I thought he was mad at the time, but was absolutely right, as usual.
I do use Junbilee clips and replace those bloody stupid hose clips wherever possible, but I do place a thin rubbed beneath them (such as a section of bicycle innter tube). As long as they are not over tightened, they work perfectly well. If ham fisted spanner monkeys who tighten them up to "FT when some" which causes the damage.
...;D yes your new to this lpg business, clearly ;D
Give it time. ;)
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Bloody jubilees. Oppsing useless bloody things. If they aren't leaking, they seize then leak.
I always remember a thread on here with Marks Dtm saying the gm water pipe clips where superior. I thought he was mad at the time, but was absolutely right, as usual.
I do use Junbilee clips and replace those bloody stupid hose clips wherever possible, but I do place a thin rubbed beneath them (such as a section of bicycle innter tube). As long as they are not over tightened, they work perfectly well. If ham fisted spanner monkeys who tighten them up to "FT when some" which causes the damage.
...;D yes your new to this lpg business, clearly ;D
Give it time. ;)
I am. Very new! But all the LPG companies use Jubilee Clips. In an ideal world, everything would be crimped (much like A/C or HP PAS) but that's not really possible, so the next best thing, a Jubilee.
Nothing aftermarket comes with those silly Hose Clips. ::) :P
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Bloody jubilees. Oppsing useless bloody things. If they aren't leaking, they seize then leak.
I always remember a thread on here with Marks Dtm saying the gm water pipe clips where superior. I thought he was mad at the time, but was absolutely right, as usual.
I do use Junbilee clips and replace those bloody stupid hose clips wherever possible, but I do place a thin rubbed beneath them (such as a section of bicycle innter tube). As long as they are not over tightened, they work perfectly well. If ham fisted spanner monkeys who tighten them up to "FT when some" which causes the damage.
...;D yes your new to this lpg business, clearly ;D
Give it time. ;)
I am. Very new! But all the LPG companies use Jubilee Clips. In an ideal world, everything would be crimped (much like A/C or HP PAS) but that's not really possible, so the next best thing, a Jubilee.
Nothing aftermarket comes with those silly Hose Clips. ::) :P
Rubber compresses. Obviously. But over time it stays compressed. This means jubilees need constant tightening to keep the same pressure on the circumference of the hose. The spring clips, effectively, automatically adjust. Insuring constant and equal pressure around the hose, regardless of how old or compressed the rubber becomes over time. The spring clips also don't have a flat or uneven pressure that the worm housing gives.
From experience, you WILL find that the jubilees will leak periodically, and need a tweak.
But hay. You know best :y ...not my oppsin car anyway. ;D :P
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Rubber compresses. Obviously. But over time it stays compressed. This means jubilees need constant tightening to keep the same pressure on the circumference of the hose. The spring clips, effectively, automatically adjust. Insuring constant and equal pressure around the hose, regardless of how old or compressed the rubber becomes over time. The spring clips also don't have a flat or uneven pressure that the worm housing gives.
From experience, you WILL find that the jubilees will leak periodically, and need a tweak.
But hay. You know best :y ...not my oppsin car anyway. ;D :P
Want to buy it? ;D
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Rubber compresses. Obviously. But over time it stays compressed. This means jubilees need constant tightening to keep the same pressure on the circumference of the hose. The spring clips, effectively, automatically adjust. Insuring constant and equal pressure around the hose, regardless of how old or compressed the rubber becomes over time. The spring clips also don't have a flat or uneven pressure that the worm housing gives.
From experience, you WILL find that the jubilees will leak periodically, and need a tweak.
But hay. You know best :y ...not my oppsin car anyway. ;D :P
Want to buy it? ;D
...I'll give you a box of matches for it, certainly. ;D
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Rubber compresses. Obviously. But over time it stays compressed. This means jubilees need constant tightening to keep the same pressure on the circumference of the hose. The spring clips, effectively, automatically adjust. Insuring constant and equal pressure around the hose, regardless of how old or compressed the rubber becomes over time. The spring clips also don't have a flat or uneven pressure that the worm housing gives.
From experience, you WILL find that the jubilees will leak periodically, and need a tweak.
But hay. You know best :y ...not my oppsin car anyway. ;D :P
Want to buy it? ;D
...I'll give you a box of matches for it, certainly. ;D
;D ;D I did have a fag on when she said she heard the 'sizzling' noise. The Gas line comes in just next to the Header tank...... I thought it was just the venting into the header tank she could hear (I am partially deaf).
I had the fag behind my back, and thankfully so!
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I do hope your joking. Or has whatever is in the Huntingdon water spread to Bristol?
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I do hope your joking. Or has whatever is in the Huntingdon water spread to Bristol?
'Tis a true story. I've been drinking bottled water from Reading recently. Same as you, I believe? ;D
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I do hope your joking. Or has whatever is in the Huntingdon water spread to Bristol?
'Tis a true story. I've been drinking bottled water from Reading recently. Same as you, I believe? ;D
Bottled water from Reading? Bottled fosters might still be floating about.
Too many carrots maybe? ;D
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Too many carrots maybe? ;D
Get orf maii laaand! >:(
:D
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Thank you TB. I'll replace it with some standard hose tomorrow and get some proper hose in the week.
No, No, No! LPG is a potent solvent and the liquid is under significant pressure. Do not use standard hosing, use the correct automotive LPG certified tubing please. Unless you want things to explode.
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Thank you TB. I'll replace it with some standard hose tomorrow and get some proper hose in the week.
No, No, No! LPG is a potent solvent and the liquid is under significant pressure. Do not use standard hosing, use the correct automotive LPG certified tubing please. Unless you want things to explode.
D. I was going to use a bit of coolant pipe I have in the garage. Just a temporary measure for a few days...... Is that a definite no no? :-\
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I think what D was trying to say was...
Are you completely mental?
Best, ie safest ::), bet is to run it on petrol until you have ordered the replacement hose from Tinley Tech on Monday :y
Might also be worth acquiring a selection of spring clips at the same time :y
The page you need for the parts you need :y (http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Hoses__Clips_and_Fittings_84.html)
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Alternatively you could pop into Avon Autogas tomorrow for a friendly chat and see if they will sell you a bit of hose. ;)
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Thank you TB. I'll replace it with some standard hose tomorrow and get some proper hose in the week.
No, No, No! LPG is a potent solvent and the liquid is under significant pressure. Do not use standard hosing, use the correct automotive LPG certified tubing please. Unless you want things to explode.
D. I was going to use a bit of coolant pipe I have in the garage. Just a temporary measure for a few days...... Is that a definite no no? :-\
Please don't use coolant hose or even the standard orange household/caravan LPG tubing. They are meant to handle vapour, not liquid lpg under pressure.
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Please don't use coolant hose or even the standard orange household/caravan LPG tubing. They are meant to handle vapour, not liquid lpg under pressure.
Noted! Thanks.
I'll go to Avon Autogas in the morning and borrow some proper hose :y
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Ah good. Sounds like he's sobered up.
That carrot cider must be prety lethal. ;D
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Ah good. Sounds like he's sobered up.
That carrot cider must be prety lethal. ;D
;D
Been out to have a proper look to see if I could indeed shorten the pipe and found the pipe to be in-tact and all is well. What isn't quite so good is one of the vac? lines has snapped off of the MAF, this is where the leak is.
Anyone got a spare Stag PS-02 MAF? They look to be around £45 new, so not a major headache. ;D
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Stag doesn't use a MAF :-\
Do you mean pressure sensor?
And jubilees are complete, utter shite, without exception
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Stag doesn't use a MAF :-\
Do you mean pressure sensor?
That's the kiddy! :y
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isnt that the gas temp sensor?
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MAP "manifold air/atmosphere/altitude :-\ pressure"