Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 23 December 2014, 21:07:26
-
Back in September I bought an extremely tidy low mileage CDX with a few issues, including (very) early oil cooler failure and a couple of engine management issues which I traced to the cam sensor
Because it was a project on the drive I've taken my time over it, stripped the top end completely, removed the heads etc to properly clean everything up and sort out a slight manifold blow.
I've slowly and carefully rebuild it, doing just a couple of hours at a time. It's been done meticulously, everything clean and assembled correctly.
Timing belt kit new, cam cover gaskets new, all seals, stat, water pump, hbv, all genuine parts too
Absolutely everything has been torqued correctly and fitted as it should be (hell I've done enough V6 engines) with no corners cut
Today I fired her up having finally finished her.
She ran fine at idle for about 10/15 minutes, there was a loud lifter or two, but I figured they'll need to recharge after major surgery, so just let it run to settle
I gave her a rev once she was fully up to temperature, and, as the rev counter went up, there was an absolutely stomach wrenching noise and the engine died instantly.
Upon examination, I can see that the crank is spinning freely, but the cams appear to be locked in place. The crank has obviously continued to spin at some force with the cams stood still, because it's shredded the teeth off the timing belt at the lower pulley.
Basicaly something has seized up here, it appears to be at the top end, and, it's let go at the higher end of the rev range. I think it's safe to say that the engine is likely to be well and truly goosed, with valve/piston contact at that engine speed.
I don't buy into the fact this is a freak accident. Apart from it's idle issues it ran fine before, and it's not likely to be a co-incidence that it's died after having work done.
But, I'm confused as to what has caused it. Timing belt pulleys are all intact and where they should be. It was all double and triple checked and fitted/torqued with the right tools.
I've yet to do a full post mortem. I had to walk away from it as it was soul destroying after all the money and work!
The only thing I can think is that, during the work, I've fitted 3.0 cams as an upgrade. But - as I understand, the camshaft caps are line bored to the head? I retained the 2.6's caps, and fitted them in the correct positions and rotations, to the correct torque, so no issues there that I'm aware of? I naturally checked that the cams all span freely by hand too before fitting the belt and running it.
I'd welcome any constructive opinions. I just can't stress how meticulously and thoroughly the work was done, this is the main thing that's confusing me, I've done so many of these and it didn't even cross my mind anything would go wrong !
For now I'm going for a beer.
-
I should add. I have my 3.0 also on the drive. The body of this car has seen better days, which is why I've been stripping it - but the block / heads are all 100 percent intact, and the engine was in bloody good order.
I might just have to fit all the new bits onto the 3.0 engine, and transplant it in to the 2.6, using the 2.6 manifolds and engine management system, effectively making a 3.0 litre Drive-By-Wire engine. Different I suppose, but I don't see why it wouldn't work!
-
That idea will work provided you use all the 2.6 sensors, and I mean ALL of them :y would certainly put all the new bits to good use...
Had you dropped the oil? If so did you refill it? :-\
-
Most likely cause IMHO is that one of the cam bearings have seized. Not sure it it's possible to fit the head gasket upside down or back to front, but on some engines that can starve the heads of oil pressure. Failing that, foreign object under the cam cover?
Bummer. >:(
Can't see why the 3.0 wouldn't work as long as it's new enough to have the threads for the DBW coil packs. Exactly what Daz did a couple of years back, in fact.
-
Most likely cause IMHO is that one of the cam bearings have seized. Not sure it it's possible to fit the head gasket upside down or back to front, but on some engines that can starve the heads of oil pressure. Failing that, foreign object under the cam cover?
Bummer. >:(
Can't see why the 3.0 wouldn't work as long as it's new enough to have the threads for the DBW coil packs. Exactly what Daz did a couple of years back, in fact.
That was his silver 2.6ish MV6 iirc :-\ can't for the life of me remember what he called it :-[
As for the dead engine, once removed, strip it down and the cause should be obvious :-\
-
The head gaskets were definitely fitted correctly, I triple checked they were correct prior to fitting :)
I will whip the cam covers off tomorrow to see if any clues exist :y
-
And yep 3.0 has threads for coil packs in the heads :y
-
Most likely cause IMHO is that one of the cam bearings have seized. Not sure it it's possible to fit the head gasket upside down or back to front, but on some engines that can starve the heads of oil pressure. Failing that, foreign object under the cam cover?
Bummer. >:(
Can't see why the 3.0 wouldn't work as long as it's new enough to have the threads for the DBW coil packs. Exactly what Daz did a couple of years back, in fact.
That was his silver 2.6ish MV6 iirc :-\ can't for the life of me remember what he called it :-[
As for the dead engine, once removed, strip it down and the cause should be obvious :-\
Was called OBI, the combination of Diff and Manual Box with a 3.0 block upfront made it a fabulous car to drive, pull away in second, put it in third and never bother to change gear again!
-
See, who said manuals were difficult to drive ;D
-
You did notice he only used 2nd and 3rd because he couldnt get the other gears ;D
-
Some years ago I bought a 2.6 from a scrap yard,low miles and absolutely mint but had failed it's MOT due to a misfire/MOT emissions fail. It was literally a one Dr owned car with full VX history and low miles. I replaced coil packs, sorted breathers,cam covers, cam belt/serviced it fully and it ended up in Roger Budden condition. I used it for several hundred miles without issue but could I buggery sell it for decent money. I ended up selling it to a decent chap locally and just covered my costs but literally 15 miles later it had the clatter of death and he phoned me to come and have a look.
On inspection it had a terrible rattle at the back of the left cylinder bank and knowing it was now a breaker asked him to drive it back home but eventually the crank seized near my house, I'm convinced it was the oil pick up blocked due to poor VX servicing schedules. I know of several 2.6's having the same issue since and will forever swerve them or will strip off the sump if it's worth bothering with as a keeper.
-
Having just completed my first V6 strip down (HG's) and rebuild, you have experienced what I was dreading! :'(
Can't add anything constructive, other than I'm feeling your pain.... :( Bastard!!! >:( :( :'(
-
I am going to get the cam covers off shortly just to look in the cams for any obvious signs
That's all I'm doing aside of wrapping presents, eating, dog walking and beer drinking, this side of January though
In the new year I shall set about it with fresh enthusiasm and drop the 3.0 in there.
If there is one thing I will not be, it is beaten!
-
Feel your pain bro. :(
-
OBI was pretty rapid, although I only had a shortish spin, as DLK said I drove like a man possessed.
-
OBI was pretty rapid, although I only had a shortish spin, as DLK said I drove like a man possessed.
A not unreasonable assessment ;D
-
OBI was pretty rapid, although I only had a shortish spin, as DLK said I drove like a man possessed.
A not unreasonable assessment ;D
Trouble is with DLK, he ends up sell bits off his cars. Vader for example was a lovely balanced example that would go round corners beautifully (I think that day he said I drove like a <unrepeatable>). So what did he do with it? Broke it for parts.
-
OBI was pretty rapid, although I only had a shortish spin, as DLK said I drove like a man possessed.
A not unreasonable assessment ;D
Trouble is with DLK, he ends up sell bits off his cars. Vader for example was a lovely balanced example that would go round corners beautifully (I think that day he said I drove like a <unrepeatable>). So what did he do with it? Broke it for parts.
OBI still in one piece and running around Stoke. Think ultimately Daz prefers pre-facelift black MV6's to facelifts.
-
Think ultimately Daz prefers pre-facelift black MV6's to facelifts.
That's because the lad has his head screwed on right ;)
-
Think ultimately Daz prefers pre-facelift black MV6's to facelifts.
That's because the lad has his head screwed on right ;)
Bloody hell, did I just say that about Darth Loo-knee :o
-
Think ultimately Daz prefers pre-facelift black MV6's to facelifts.
That's because the lad has his head screwed on right ;)
Bloody hell, did I just say that about Darth Loo-knee :o
Apparently you did... Started the sauce already? ::)
-
Think ultimately Daz prefers pre-facelift black MV6's to facelifts.
That's because the lad has his head screwed on right ;)
Bloody hell, did I just say that about Darth Loo-knee :o
Apparently you did... Started the sauce already? ::)
Nothing stronger that Tata's best product so far :o
-
I am going to get the cam covers off shortly just to look in the cams for any obvious signs
That's all I'm doing aside of wrapping presents, eating, dog walking and beer drinking, this side of January though
In the new year I shall set about it with fresh enthusiasm and drop the 3.0 in there.
If there is one thing I will not be, it is beaten!
I have a 3.2 engine in my garage with 120K on it ;)
-
Feel your pain bro. :(
Wonder if it another duff adjuster :-\
-
Inlet cam on 1 3 5 bank seized solid, the front bearing cap and the part of the cam housed inside it is very scored.
Same story with the exhaust cam on that bank just not quite as bad
Double checked, caps were all fitted correctly
I will upload the pics I took soon
Any ideas what caused this?
2 4 6 bank cams are ok
Maybe 3.0 cams are not advised for 2.6?? ;D
-
I am going to get the cam covers off shortly just to look in the cams for any obvious signs
That's all I'm doing aside of wrapping presents, eating, dog walking and beer drinking, this side of January though
In the new year I shall set about it with fresh enthusiasm and drop the 3.0 in there.
If there is one thing I will not be, it is beaten!
I have a 3.2 engine in my garage with 120K on it ;)
It's tempting. But at the moment I'm happy to fit the 3.0 lump, unless the 3.2 is extremely cheap. I don't mind putting more labour into it, but otherwise I can't shell out more, it's just not financially worth it :(
-
Bad news James, with it all on one head I would be looking at oil starvation.....
-
Bad news James, with it all on one head I would be looking at oil starvation.....
Yep, sounds like it to me.
-
so so sorry for your loss...my thoughts are with you and your family....... :(
-
Bad news James, with it all on one head I would be looking at oil starvation.....
Yep, sounds like it to me.
Assuming this is correct, and given James's meticulous approach to his work, this is extremely unfortunate, and leads me to ask, what more could he have done to ensure that there would be no interruption to the oil feed to the camshaft bearing(s)? ??? ??? ???
-
Bad news James, with it all on one head I would be looking at oil starvation.....
Yep, sounds like it to me.
Assuming this is correct, and given James's meticulous approach to his work, this is extremely unfortunate, and leads me to ask, what more could he have done to ensure that there would be no interruption to the oil feed to the camshaft bearing(s)? ??? ??? ???
Fitting the head gasket wrongly is the most likely cause that would affect just one head, IMHO. The feed is staggered, so relies on an elongated hole in the head gasket to transfer supply from block to head. It might be possible to block that feed by fitting the gasket incorrectly.
Failing that, maybe the oft-encountered problems with blocked pickups in the sump on a 2.6 prevented the oil pump from priming correctly. One would expect that to be immediately evident in knocking from the crank bearings, though.
I'm not sure if the bearing oil feeds pass through the T vent on the head. Possibly, this blocked due to some dirt that got dislodged during the rebuild? :-\
I'm sure James will carry out a detailed post-mortem in time. Every cloud has a silver lining, good excuse for an upgrade to a 3.0. :y
-
I take it that this problem wouldn't have been evident when poor old James was turning the crank when setting up his timing belt? it woulds have spun like normal and then when on it would have seized up due to oil starvation?
sad days :(
-
Martin Imber managed to put a head gasket on the wrong way round or upside down which caused some blockage iirc?
-
Martin Imber managed to put a head gasket on the wrong way round or upside down which caused some blockage iirc?
Yes, I had it in the back of my mind that it had happened before. I think you're right.
-
Martin Imber managed to put a head gasket on the wrong way round or upside down which caused some blockage iirc?
Yes, I had it in the back of my mind that it had happened before. I think you're right.
I too recall this, as he was asking about reusing the gasket
Thing is I've done SO many v6 head gaskets I know without question which way up the HG goes!
Although we do know what they say about complacency!!
I'm going to have to strip it to check!
On the upshot? Our kind Joff has a spare 3.2 engine which he needs to get out of his garage, so it's being donated to a good home.
Anyone else have a 3.2 CDX? ;D
-
Funnily enough, several were factory built... either as dealer special orders or for the Royal Household ;)
-
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpst48hl092.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsern2wmbi.jpg)
Getting there!
It's heavy work on your own, but the dead lump is now out, should be dropping in the 3.2 tomorrow if the weather's dry :y
-
Looking good :y
-
Looking good :y
As part of this job I cleaned out my garage and found that part you're after today :y
-
Daft question time ...... as I've never disemboweled an Omega .... :)
Why wrap the lifting chain around in that weird and dangerous looking manner (having had an engine slip when doing similar in the past) when there is a convenient lifting eye attached to the engine ??? - that gets in the darn way doing the B***** bolt ??
-
Wow! Good effort James!! :y :y
-
Why wrap the lifting chain around in that weird and dangerous looking manner (having had an engine slip when doing similar in the past) when there is a convenient lifting eye attached to the engine ???
I don't follow, my chain is attached to both lifting eyes (on each side) via a heavy duty chain?? Both lifting eyes are being utilised?
Edited - look closely at the pic of the engine hanging, you can clearly see the chain attached to the 1-3-5 lifting eye... I think what you are referring to is just the excess length of chain hanging down the side of the engine...
In fact, you can see the shackles attaching the chain to both lifting eyes in that pic
-
.....
I don't follow, my chain is attached to both lifting eyes (on each side) via a heavy duty chain?? Both lifting eyes are being utilised?
I think Nige is looking at the 'spare' chain dangling either side :y
-
.....
I don't follow, my chain is attached to both lifting eyes (on each side) via a heavy duty chain?? Both lifting eyes are being utilised?
I think Nige is looking at the 'spare' chain dangling either side :y
Yep, had me worried for a split second I'd missed something! :y
Tomorrow I'm going to have to drop the AR35 off the 3.0. It's the one thing I really CBA to do, but I'm going to have to, fitting an AR25 to the 3.2 would be pointless
To be honest it's all been very easy so far. I removed the entire engine loom and aircon pipework just to get it all right out of the way :)
The guide states to take the engine out alone and to support the box, but I didn't seem to have any issue removing it all as one unit :y
-
Looks like you had a busy day james ;D ;D
-
okies .. sorry .. just looked to me like the chain was "wrapped" .. if the lifting eyes are used then great .. :)
-
okies .. sorry .. just looked to me like the chain was "wrapped" .. if the lifting eyes are used then great .. :)
No worries :D I've never lifted a V6 lump out before so appreciate all comments :y
-
So impressed. I know everyone that does engine swaps says it's 'easy' and 'just a big meccano' etc.. but it still impresses me, and delighted you haven't just laid down, given up and let it die :y
-
Well the new 3.2 lump is fitted. By lump, I mean literally just the block, heads, cams and cam covers. The only other item I've fitted is the starter motor, and nearside exhaust manifold, because they are more tricky in situ. I would have done the drivers manifold too but ran out of studs.
All of the other ancillaries and electrics need fitting, at the moment there isn't even an engine loom :D
In an ideal world I'd have stripped / cleaned the 3.2 and replaced all the seals prior to dropping it in, but that would take some time, I'm using a borrowed crane and I also didn't want to keep it under a tarpaulin that long (the garage is blocked by the car) so I will have to do any other bits in situ.
It wasn't a bad job to do really working alone.
Only slightly fiddly bit was getting it aligned with the mounts in the car.
Next job, nick the AR35 off my breaker, fit that, and then start bolting all the bits back on! :y
-
Nice one James , so all in all a few hundred quid to replace an engine , not bad . Anything can be done . Watch your back , my mechanic years ago use to wear a weightlifters belt for support but he did lift the engine in by hand ;D
-
When you can do an entire engine swap for less than Vauxhall charge to do the cambelt, you know you're onto a winner! Keep up the good work :y
-
Well done James, looking forward to it running, and the verdict on the dead 'un! :y