Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: tigers_gonads on 23 January 2015, 16:46:00
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Bilstien B4 front shocks for my 3.2 estate ??
Mine have done 140000 plus miles and after the first few pushes of the brake pedal, the front end is all over the place. Before that, it brakes straight and true.
I've been through every rubber joint I can see under the front end with weight on the wheels and a jack / block of wood with no luck.
As far as I can make out, everything is solid with no flex or movement.
There is also no knocking sounds anywhere on the car and the car drives great with power on. Only when the power is off and the brakes applied does the fun start.
All the brakes have been replaced / rebuilt and once the initial kick in the steering has happened, it stops very well straight and true with no fade.
Both front tyres are also new.
All this started to happen after I had all the weight on the front end for a couple of days while I replaced the rear springs.
Basically, its never drove properly since.
Is they something i've missed here or is it quite simply a case of once the front shocks have bounced a few times from cold, they loose all pressure and that's when the fun starts :-\
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Are the front shocks original? What effect does the bounce test have? Remove the top nut from the shocks to release the top plate. What state are the top mounts in? Don't jack the car with this plate removed!
Also when was brake fluid last changed? Might need bleeding/changing... :-\
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Are the front shocks original? What effect does the bounce test have? Remove the top nut from the shocks to release the top plate. What state are the top mounts in? Don't jack the car with this plate removed!
Also when was brake fluid last changed? Might need bleeding/changing... :-\
Yup, it looks like the shocks and springs are original.
Bounce test seems okay to me (one bounce and a little one ;D)
Mini Me has bought me a nice 2.5 ton 4x4 jack for my birthday from halfrauds so we have been out there for the first time since chrimbo having a poke around.
Front end on its wheels / up on ramps.
Jack under everything I could see with no movement :(
Also totally stripped the front brakes, cleaned / greased then rebuilt.
Took it for a test drive and if anything, its even more unstable :(
Also checked the top turrets for movement.
You might get a fag paper in there but no movement so I don't think the top mounts are dodgy :-\
Brake fluid could be original but doesn't seem overly dirty and they is plenty in there :-\
I was thinking of bleeding some out to see if some air has got in there but it got dark before I got a chance :(
Also, 90% of the time, it twitches to the left.
It was the left (near side) hub that was totally knackered so i'm wondering if that has put a strain on the shocker and finished it off :-\
It just seems strange that all this started after I had all the weight on the front end far a few days :-\
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I got my B4`s from Balance Motorsport but LMF have deals on from time to time too so It`s worth shopping about.
I don`t think that having the car on jacks would cause problems with the suspension as the springs take the weight of the car.
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Busted spring? Any sign of cracking on the top mounts?
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Busted spring? Any sign of cracking on the top mounts?
Couldn't see or feel anything un towards with the spring when the front was on jacks to do the brakes.
Top mounts, do you mean under the bonnet around the suspension turret ?
I did stamp on the brakes with the engine running to see if I had a bulging flexi brake pipe.
The pipe stiffened up nicely with pressure but no bulging
Mr Gav, thanks for that :y
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At 140k miles, any shock is going to be way past its best. The wear is normally a progressive thing that you don't notice happening. Move replacing them to the top of the list.
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Busted spring? Any sign of cracking on the top mounts?
Couldn't see or feel anything un towards with the spring when the front was on jacks to do the brakes.
Top mounts, do you mean under the bonnet around the suspension turret ?
I did stamp on the brakes with the engine running to see if I had a bulging flexi brake pipe.
The pipe stiffened up nicely with pressure but no bulging
Mr Gav, thanks for that :y
No problem ;) LMF are currently doing the B4`s for £198.36 according to their website this morning and Balance are £177.88, this is for the saloon. No brainer really :y
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Busted spring? Any sign of cracking on the top mounts?
Couldn't see or feel anything un towards with the spring when the front was on jacks to do the brakes.
Top mounts, do you mean under the bonnet around the suspension turret ?
I did stamp on the brakes with the engine running to see if I had a bulging flexi brake pipe.
The pipe stiffened up nicely with pressure but no bulging
Mr Gav, thanks for that :y
Yup :y which is why I said you need to remove the top plate as you need to be able to see the top mount to visually check them...
Apologies for that reading in a slightly patronising tone... not meant to be :-[
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Busted spring? Any sign of cracking on the top mounts?
Couldn't see or feel anything un towards with the spring when the front was on jacks to do the brakes.
Top mounts, do you mean under the bonnet around the suspension turret ?
I did stamp on the brakes with the engine running to see if I had a bulging flexi brake pipe.
The pipe stiffened up nicely with pressure but no bulging
Mr Gav, thanks for that :y
Yup :y which is why I said you need to remove the top plate as you need to be able to see the top mount to visually check them...
Apologies for that reading in a slightly patronising tone... not meant to be :-[
Oh do behave ::) ;D ;D
Not stopped for a few days
I'll have a play when I get a spare few hours Al :y
Cheers Bud :)
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Bought mine from Balance just before Xmas - worth ringing the bloke and inquiring about the 'OOF discount' - I think I paid £186 for all four shockers (it was a black friday deal, sort of thing) - he did tell me that even if I wasn't able to buy there and then then he would still honour the discount the following week. Not wanting to cost the guy any money, but if you can squeeze a few more pennies off him, then can't complain. :y
Cannot rate service and pleasant chat over the phone high enough, we ended up talking about the progression of car design for about 15 mins before I remembered I was still at work! Balance Motorsport all the way :)
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Okay, I have just checked the top mounts on the car.
Other then a bit of dust under there, they look brand new to me. Nice and dry with no marks, splits or corrosion anywhere.
All metal looks okay with no cracks or marks visible :(
This is really beginning to get on my tits now ................ what am I missing here ??
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When was the geometry last done?
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I'd say normally a twitch or the car feeling 'unsettled' either before or after braking would be down to a worn wishbone bush, but how this would be an issue only after lifting the back end up I don't know. Basically under braking, the wishbone bush wear allows the wishbone to pull backwards, toe out, spoiling castor settings and handling. (think I've got that right :D)
Happy to be proven wrong though! :y
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Taxi Al beats me to it! Worth having it looked at, is what I was going to say :)
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Replaced front hub bearing a few weeks before Christmas.
Checked and adjusted front and rear after that.
This problem was happening before any adjustments and still gives the same symptoms after the adjustments.
As said earlier in the thread (I think ;D)
I started noticing it after the rear springs was changed for the MOT last September.
I knew I had work to do on the brakes so "lived with it" until I worked my way threw the list.
The list includes .................
New front discs and pads
Replaced 1 rear disc and both pairs of pads. (the other rear disc was spotless)
Adjusted the handbrake.
Replaced 2 front tyres.
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Did you do any rear caliper work? Guessing offside rear disc was the clean one...
Handbrake cable routing following the spring change? If the cable is being pulled by suspension travel as the weight shifts forward under heavyish braking, that could brake one rear wheel, increasing the braking affect on one side causing the pull. Wouldn't show up on an MoT as there's no weight transfer during the brake test. Sticky rear caliper would have the same effect, but should be picked up by the tester unless both sides are underachieving equally :-\
Only other candidates are front arm ball joints, shocks or front arm rear bush :-\
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I'm going to take it back to the tyre place, first thing in morning so they can get it up in the air and have a pull around with various bits again.
Since these symptoms only happen AFTER a few pushes of the brakes / bouncing over speed bumps, personally I can only think of 2 things
1/. Knackered shocker (dumping pressure after a few bounces)
2/. Air bubble in the brake fluid
Then again, I may just be talking shite ;D ;D
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Did you do any rear caliper work? Guessing offside rear disc was the clean one...
Handbrake cable routing following the spring change? If the cable is being pulled by suspension travel as the weight shifts forward under heavyish braking, that could brake one rear wheel, increasing the braking affect on one side causing the pull. Wouldn't show up on an MoT as there's no weight transfer during the brake test. Sticky rear caliper would have the same effect, but should be picked up by the tester unless both sides are underachieving equally :-\
Only other candidates are front arm ball joints or front arm rear bush :-\
Rear nearside disc was trashed when a brake pad broke up and the rivets scored opps out of the disc before I could get the locking wheel nuts chiselled off. (that was 2 years ago. I just replaced the pads because I was skint at the time)
Handbrake was just adjusted up on the adjusters visible with the wheel off because it was borderline for the MOT. The cable was left alone.
I know the front wishbone bush can be changed with out removing the arm.
Can the rear one be done without removing the arm ?
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Did you do any rear caliper work? Guessing offside rear disc was the clean one...
Handbrake cable routing following the spring change? If the cable is being pulled by suspension travel as the weight shifts forward under heavyish braking, that could brake one rear wheel, increasing the braking affect on one side causing the pull. Wouldn't show up on an MoT as there's no weight transfer during the brake test. Sticky rear caliper would have the same effect, but should be picked up by the tester unless both sides are underachieving equally :-\
Only other candidates are front arm ball joints or front arm rear bush :-\
Rear nearside disc was trashed when a brake pad broke up and the rivets scored opps out of the disc before I could get the locking wheel nuts chiselled off. (that was 2 years ago. I just replaced the pads because I was skint at the time)
Handbrake was just adjusted up on the adjusters visible with the wheel off because it was borderline for the MOT. The cable was left alone.
I know the front wishbone bush can be changed with out removing the arm.
Can the rear one be done without removing the arm ?
Rear one no :'( ball joint can be, but is a shit to do in situ and still ruins the geometry...
I would budget/start collecting bits for a front end rebuild then, as it sounds like the brakes aren't the issue... :-\
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What is the best way to check the rear wishbone bushes ?
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Physically... Pry bar in behind from the trailing edge of the arm and try to pop the arm out of the subframe... significant play means they're toast.
Visually... look for splits in the rubber... should be obvious on top with the car jacked.
:y
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Rear bush (into the subframe) near side well and truly knackered
Some play in the off side too so it looks like i'm going to be replacing both pairs of wishbones / track arms when it warms up a little :(
Thanks to Al (and Chris if your lurking) and any others for listening to my whingeing helping me out on this :y :y
OOF at its best imo :)
If I can hold out until I find the dosh, i'll stick B4's on the front end too and maybe poly the front bushes :y
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This should help with the cash side of things...
https://www.atp-autoteile.de/group/1150201/product/15808/18846/details.htm :y
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My money is on dodgy front wishbone bushes. Four years ago I put Jonny's Omega through its MOT, found it twitchy on braking, didn't like it. Changed discs and pads, just the same. In desperation I had wife drive car over the pit and brake with me in the pit. Then it was obvious - front bushes. Yet the MOT man had found nothing wrong.
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My money is on dodgy front wishbone bushes. Four years ago I put Jonny's Omega through its MOT, found it twitchy on braking, didn't like it. Changed discs and pads, just the same. In desperation I had wife drive car over the pit and brake with me in the pit. Then it was obvious - front bushes. Yet the MOT man had found nothing wrong.
Not entirely the fault of the tester as the car is tested static, so absolutely no dynamic load... roller test demonstrates nothing beyond brake balance and efficiency :y
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My money is on dodgy front wishbone bushes. Four years ago I put Jonny's Omega through its MOT, found it twitchy on braking, didn't like it. Changed discs and pads, just the same. In desperation I had wife drive car over the pit and brake with me in the pit. Then it was obvious - front bushes. Yet the MOT man had found nothing wrong.
Not entirely the fault of the tester as the car is tested static, so absolutely no dynamic load... roller test demonstrates nothing beyond brake balance and efficiency :y
The modern one man testing system with shaker plates ought to have found that ::)
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Theres a truck load of compliance in the front bushes anyway even when there not worn. Thats why the polys go in.
I had the same problem. Seem to come from nowhere. Within a thousand miles or two, the track rod end seemed to have as much play as your average taxi.
These newbies can be demanding..
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;D
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Theres a truck load of compliance in the front bushes anyway even when there not worn. Thats why the polys go in.
I had the same problem. Seem to come from nowhere. Within a thousand miles or two, the track rod end seemed to have as much play as your average taxi.
These newbies can be demanding..
Oi >:(
I used to be massive i'll tell yeh :P ;D ;D
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Theres a truck load of compliance in the front bushes anyway even when there not worn. Thats why the polys go in.
I had the same problem. Seem to come from nowhere. Within a thousand miles or two, the track rod end seemed to have as much play as your average taxi.
These newbies can be demanding..
Agree there. :) Once nearly had a set fail, the (youngish) tester was prying the wishbone and had an unsure look on his face. As luck would have it the old boy who'd been there years was walking past. (he had tested all the family's cars for years) glanced at it and said "that's normal for Omegas" - and there was nothing wrong - that wishbone was on for at least another test or two before showing any adverse wear. So they're tricky - sometimes look fine and they're not, other times you swear they're on their way out and they're fine.
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Anybody used these before ?
Seem very cheep or am I just lucky don't answer that bit
Opinions please
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FRONT-COMPLETE-KIT-WISHBONE-OPEL-OMEGA-B-25-26-27-ESTATE-21-22-23-2-0-3-2-DTI-/331146383111?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d19dccf07
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Anybody used these before ?
Seem very cheep or am I just lucky don't answer that bit
Opinions please
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FRONT-COMPLETE-KIT-WISHBONE-OPEL-OMEGA-B-25-26-27-ESTATE-21-22-23-2-0-3-2-DTI-/331146383111?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d19dccf07
:-\
The ATP sets are occasionally priced that low, but I stand by my original recommendation :y
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Having just followed Al's advise and put an ATP kit on my 2.2, I can confirm they are good :y
Now if I could only get the setup correct I'd be really happy!
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Anybody used these before ?
Seem very cheep or am I just lucky don't answer that bit
Opinions please
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FRONT-COMPLETE-KIT-WISHBONE-OPEL-OMEGA-B-25-26-27-ESTATE-21-22-23-2-0-3-2-DTI-/331146383111?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d19dccf07
:-\
The ATP sets are occasionally priced that low, but I stand by my original recommendation :y
Oh well, can but ask ::) :)
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There's one way to find out Mr Gonads! :) Let us know how it goes! :y
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There's one way to find out Mr Gonads! :) Let us know how it goes! :y
Indeed :y
Thought I had posted as much last night :-\