Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Steve B on 18 February 2015, 18:19:05
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Not sure if i am going to be needing one of these just yet :-\ :-\ do they have part numbers.Seen talk of getting the right one with a number on a white label on the loom and this must be matched... :y
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Not sure if i am going to be needing one of these just yet :-\ :-\ do they have part numbers.Seen talk of getting the right one with a number on a white label on the loom and this must be matched... :y
You might get away with adding a tail to the 246 coil pack loom, to essentially replace the plug... if two coil packs haven't solved the issue, then it must be wiring related :-\
I might have a spare one here... will have a rummage shortly :y
Any 2.6/3.2 auto loom will do the job if changing the plug/6" of loom doesn't work :y
The extras like oil level sensor etc are on a separate loom, btw...
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When yours went Al did it sort of make a knock noise once the cylinder shut down :-\
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When yours went Al did it sort of make a knock noise once the cylinder shut down :-\
It really wasn't happy, to the point that the plug had disintegrated :o there's a pic here aboots of the offending plug, but only symptoms were a persistant 0300 and 0306, followed by 0304,0305,0303 etc, but always 0300 and 0306 :-\
Symptoms persisted even with new plugs, coil packs and even tried swapping the ecu... all made sfa difference :-\
Took two attempts for the loom to finally solve the issue.
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What is strange about it is, it came about owing to the coil pack not like being unplugged.yet it dont seem common on here from what i see.. its just good old lucky you and me ;D ;D And would of thought first port of call would be wiring in the plug,but you went down that route.
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If the wiring within the plug is corroded then changing the plug and a small section of loom could be all it needs :-\
Could try spraying a contact cleaner into the plug terminals before getting stuck in, and see if that helps :y
I do have a couple of tails here with plugs if needs be, and can give you the auto loom details... will dig them out in the morning...
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Had one of them brain wave moments. ;D ;D thought lets do a macro to see if i can see pitting/arcing.. And then blame the connector.. Not So :'( :'(
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/coil%20pack%20pins.JPG)
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What state is the loom side in?
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What state is the loom side in?
Never looked at that Al..Owing to when i fitted the new coil pack i thought that was the problem...
If a tail and plug/connector are soldered to that part of the loom ...does the work have to be done down there in that tight spot ,,behind the coil pack. :-\
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Cover off the loom tray, remove the tape and you'll get the plug to about where the oil cap is... :y
Once a bit more accessible, you can carefully strip the plug down to check for evidence of water ingress at the loom side :y
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Cover off the loom tray, remove the tape and you'll get the plug to about where the oil cap is... :y
Once a bit more accessible, you can carefully strip the plug down to check for evidence of water ingress at the loom side :y
did you see that on yours..
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Cover off the loom tray, remove the tape and you'll get the plug to about where the oil cap is... :y
Once a bit more accessible, you can carefully strip the plug down to check for evidence of water ingress at the loom side :y
did you see that on yours..
Truth be told, I didn't check it... :-[ I figured that if three known good coil packs and a known good ecu didn't fix it then the problem must be in the loom :-\
Between them both coil packs have eight wires from the ecu... 1 common power supply, 1 common return, and six trigger wires... one for each cylinder. The common power feed also goes to a resistor which mounts to the back of the 246 head.
If you find a loose brown wire that doesn't connect to anything then that's where that is supposed to go. New resistors are readily available from Vauxhall, but you'll need to renew the plug for it on the loom. Mine had separated due to water from the scuttle... the break on it was blue with copper oxide. This wire is live with the ignition so DO NOT ground it... I did and it nearly torched the car :-X
It was a while ago, and iirc, that was when I replaced a section of wiring, which didn't help so I went straight to changing the loom.
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yes i seen that one ;D ;D
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=97906.msg1226018#msg1226018
yes mine had a previous water problem too from the scuttle..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/water.JPG)
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Was talking to Daz about loom swapping and chopping around and he said....Just to be sure that is what it needs doing go out to car and swap plug 6..
So i went out and swapped plug 6...i also had a wiggle of that radio thing/ brown wire...i removed the black wire tray and pulled the million wires out the way. and unplugged and removed coil pack.The plug i removed looked all good to me,but i swapped it anyway.
Put coil pack back on plugged it in.And left all the wires there naked cos i hate removing that plastic tray.
I then decided to give it a run out after clearing all the old codes....These were ...p0302,p0304.p0306 All the n/s bank..
now i went for a run 10 miles fast/slow/thrash it the lot... And not a single code and it never missed a beat.
Wonder what will happen when i put the wires back in the case, ;D ;D ;D
Al you said....Between them both coil packs have eight wires from the ecu... 1 common power supply, 1 common return, and six trigger wires... one for each cylinder. The common power feed also goes to a resistor which mounts to the back of the 246 head
From them codes it must be a problem with the common power supply to that bank or the common return to that bank.. I cannot see it being any other.
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Could be but it always starts with 0300 and 0306, the 0300 caused by a general grumble, the 0306 being number 6 shutting down eventually, if left idling, the rest of the cylinders will fall over, generating the rest of the codes... if the issue is with the common feeds it would affect all six cylinders equally :y
Oh, and not wanting to piss on your fireworks, but after the codes are cleared it will run fine for a while... do another ten miles then leave it idling... within five minutes you'll have the light back on and an 0306 to clear :'(
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oh i no it will be back.. :'( ..you get different stages with it... before i played around today it was constant. now its gone away and i think its all because the offending wire or wires have been pulled around... but there is only 5 of them on the coil pack so it must be one of them :-\
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Clearing the codes works for a bit, which is frustrating, but does suggest variations in the resistance within the loom... :-\
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And them 5 wires that we plug in the coil pack go to here do they..so i could strip back tape/wrap and renew 5 only wires all about 2-3 feet long :-\
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/wires.JPG)
Just for STMO ;D ;D
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You want to be three inches nearer the bulkhead... Will take a pic of where you get to for where the common feeds split :y
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Be nice to see a wiring diagram for these coil packs... is there one anywhere :-\
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Ive seen it chuck up 302 304 &306 Al :y But always 300 first then 306 then 302 and last of all 304
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At its worst, mine had five misfire codes plus 0300 and both knock sensors...
Could be that the solder/crimp where the common feeds join is breaking up from heat/vibration cycles :-\
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At its worst, mine had five misfire codes plus 0300 and both knock sensors...
Could be that the solder/crimp where the common feeds join is breaking up from heat/vibration cycles :-\
And there is also a join in the Earth at pin 1..When it goes from 1.5--2.5mm wire :-\
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That's the other common wire ::)
Joints are both taped in the cable tray, about halfway tween the spur from the ecu and the bulkhead end of the tray :y
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Are the 2.6 & 3.2 Identical looms :-\
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Yup :y only difference is manual and auto :y
Will try to remember to get you the loom part number and ident from my 3.2 auto loom :y
Thinking out loud Robsey MV6 is breaking a 3.2 auto...
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There is no ground connection associated with the coil pack, there is a common pos feed and then each coil is pulled low by the ECU to energise them (the spark occurring when the ECU turns the current off)
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What's this then?
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150221_133900_zpsg30asbcn.jpg)
In particular Pin1 on both coil packs...
Without a loom infront of me, they join in the cable tray and iirc return to ecu :y
BkRd being the common ignition feed +12v :y
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Right Gonna get my hands on a engine loom tomo off a auto and make a start on the swap over (dreading it) So whats involved..What needs to come off in order to get loom out...Take it you start at the ECU
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Up on ramps, unplug the lambdas and gearbox plugs, and pull the lower loom over the top of the box to the lefthand side.
Remove plenum and front cabletray cover...
Then unplug...
Front multiram and Maf sensor,
both knock sensors,
cam and crank sensors,
135 cp,
purge valve,
ecu temp sensor (mark this one),
temp gauge sensor,
rear multiram,
injector loom,
246 coilpack,
ecu plug including earth lead to the mounting plate,
two round plugs by battery,
lift off, pulling the cat/gearbox wiring up as it comes...
Bish bash bosh :y
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So the whole thing comes off like a giant loop chucked over/round the engine :-\
No scuttle or bagpipes off then Al
Dont go and tell me that lot should take me 45mins..... ;D ;D ;D
Is the whole job done on the ramps :-\
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That's about the size of it... Ramps only needed for the underneath stuff... Plenum off easier than scuttle off.
Key point is marking the ecu coolant temp sensor plug as it is identical to the purge valve plug and one is 5v and tother is 12v so you can guess what happens if you get them wrong...
Not that I did that... Oh no... ::) :-X
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Its for screening, does pretty much nowt on the firing of the coils.
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Actually, scratch that, as its coil per plug, it must be the ground for the secondary side of the CPP
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Actually, scratch that, as its coil per plug, it must be the ground for the secondary side of the CPP
Hmm. Some good potential for it to muller other signals in the loom if it comes adrift...
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/wire%20dia.jpg)
Decided to Get the Meter out today And on the end i soldered a small spade end connector which fitted nice and tight into the coil pack lead..
I then After disconnecting the battery unplugged the ECU to enable me to get at the other end of the plug.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/earth%20lead.JPG)
First i set out on the lead above..(the earth lead)Above pic is where it splits to go to pin 1 on both coil packs.
I pluged into pin 1 on the 246 coil pack and put the other end of the meter to earth...I then set about pulling around on the loom/solder joint/harness...never did the reading ever change from 0.4Ω... That looks good to me
Then i plugged into pins 3,4,5..The trigger ones..and the other end of the meter went into the ECU plug in pins 30,31,32..Every single one of those gave a reading of 0.5Ω.
Theres only one lead left and that is the 12v switched from the ignition(is it a straight 12v from ignition cannot see end of diagram Al)
Need to no if i can put 12v from batt directly to pin2 on the coil pack :-\
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/Bad%20Running1.mp4 :'( :'(
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/bad%20running2.mp4 :'( :'(
306 304 302 301 Codes ..Soon have the full set ;D ;D
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Yup, straight from ignition... join should be in that bundle near the earth wiring :y ie similar join in a similar place :y
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Surprised its straight from the ignition, I would expect it to come from one of the purple relays.
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/Done.mp4
YES YES YES YES YES
Nobodys got a smile like the one on my face ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So it was the pos supply?
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So it was the pos supply?
I never rewired anything in the end... I Dragged this in the kitchen last night and started to peel back the tape from the 246 connector.. I never got very far at all when the penny dropped.. The answer to my problem as been looking at me all the time and i was just too blind.. :-[ :-[ :-[ This loom is not off my car..Its one i had to put on but never did.
Note to self... Read other peoples replies properly ;D ;D ;D
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/kitchen%20loom.JPG)
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And a Great big thanks to Taxi Al For all my picking of his Brain :y
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/new%20diagram.jpg)
This is now unpluged
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Interesting... but well found :y 8)
On mine that had self disconnected, ie corroded through at the suppressor, suggesting a similar issue elswhere in the coil pack wiring as replacing it made no real odds... :-\
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Surprised its straight from the ignition, I would expect it to come from one of the purple relays.
Nope, via X3 straight to the key :y
One purple relay controls fuel pump, tother injector power and not much else near as I can tell :-\
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Soon as i started stripping back the used loom i got hold of, I seen that radio suppressor wire coming out of the coil pack live feed, And i knew That was earthing out and robbing the coil pack.
Soon as i unplugged it and started the car up all it clunks and rattles vanished from the lifters..Tickover restored, The lot.. :y
I suppose i better get down VX and get another one... Anyone any idea how they are fixed to the back of the head...
I suppose you can earth it anywhere. :-\ :-\
The answer was in reply #11 The penny should of dropped then really :-[ :-[ ;D ;D
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::) ;D
It bolts to the back of the engine, specifically the 246 head near the coil pack plug :y
Just don't bolt it to the plenum... it's not earthed :y
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A slight floor in your reasoning as that capacitor is connected across the feed for both banks and yet you were seeing only miss fire codes on bank 2. Further more, if it was 'robbing' power then it would have self combusted. ;D :D :y
Monitor it carefully would be my advice as the reasoning at the moment does not stand up, here's hoping though :y
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A slight floor in your reasoning as that capacitor is connected across the feed for both banks and yet you were seeing only miss fire codes on bank 2. Further more, if it was 'robbing' power then it would have self combusted. ;D :D :y
Monitor it carefully would be my advice as the reasoning at the moment does not stand up, here's hoping though :y
I did in the end get a 301 code. But only once..But like you say in the main it only screwed up the 246 bank.
I believe that suppressor was failing and leaking off some of the current needed by the coil pack/s...Not a complete fail but a slight one enough to give a low feed to the coil pack..
Why not all 6 :-\ :-\ Not got a clue ;D ;D ;D
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Hence the monitor it carefuly........as leaking off a bit of current would make no difference unless it reached the point where it was dropping the voltage by which time smoke would have appeared....hence why it does not add up. ;)
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Hence the monitor it carefuly........as leaking off a bit of current would make no difference unless it reached the point where it was dropping the voltage by which time smoke would have appeared....hence why it does not add up. ;)
What i will do mark is nip Vx and get a new one and put that one on and see what happens... How am i gonna unbolt that right behind there.
I suppose with it being a omega i will have to have the engine out to cure the radio ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Are you getting noise on the radio (it will probably only be on LW/MW)?
Its not to easy to get at but can be done......but check for noise first and if your not getting any then don't bother with it.
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Are you getting noise on the radio (it will probably only be on LW/MW)?
Its not to easy to get at but can be done......but check for noise first and if your not getting any then don't bother with it.
Mine had a rev related whine on FM too :y
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Are you getting noise on the radio (it will probably only be on LW/MW)?
Its not to easy to get at but can be done......but check for noise first and if your not getting any then don't bother with it.
Mine had a rev related whine on FM too :y
Well mines not... radio on fm is fine..Been out in it tonight and it runs better than it ever as since the day i got it...
right now for some of them proper Mv6 wheels mmmmm ;D ;D Think mine are elite wheels
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Them wheels correct for the '03 MV6 ;)
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Them wheels correct for the '03 MV6 ;)
you have a good memory ..
one of them a little naff so im off hunting next week
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Them wheels correct for the '03 MV6 ;)
you have a good memory ..
one of them a little naff so im off hunting next week
I have two in the shed but they need a refurb :y
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Well that Never lasted long >:( >:(
So today It was coil pack plug off and a new one on with a tail.
But yet again once its left to tickover and gets up to temp then 300 & 306 code.....And its Always The minute the fans kick in,
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So that points towards a supply issue....... :y
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How have you joined the new plug to the loom?
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How have you joined the new plug to the loom?
New plug had a 6 inch tail...Every join was soldered. Fault is not worse so joins all ok that im sure of. :y
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My next move is to run this line to the positive on the batt..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/new%20live.jpg)
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How have you joined the new plug to the loom?
New plug had a 6 inch tail...Every join was soldered. Fault is not worse so joins all ok that im sure of. :y
Cool, I'd make sure it was well insulated from water ingress in that lovely part of the engine bay!!! :y
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My next move is to run this line to the positive on the batt..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/new%20live.jpg)
That's an ignition switched line, though. ;)
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My next move is to run this line to the positive on the batt..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/new%20live.jpg)
That's an ignition switched line, though. ;)
I dont intend to leave it there permanently... Just wanted to leave it there temp.Will that be ok.. And the ignition one still plugged in
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My next move is to run this line to the positive on the batt..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/new%20live.jpg)
That's an ignition switched line, though. ;)
That live feed shown in red is live when ignition is on and shows 11.7v on meter...Thats not good
When ignition is off that same wire then becomes a Negative.
Meter across Batt shows 12.2v :-\ :-\
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It becomes a neg when off as the loads present on the feed will provide a route to ground
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It becomes a neg when off as the loads present on the feed will provide a route to ground
So therefore i can run a live feed straight from the Batt + Only while ignition is on.. Is that correct. :-\
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It becomes a neg when off as the loads present on the feed will provide a route to ground
That explains the magic fire I made when I 'earthed' the suppresor lead to the plenum and then connectect the plenum vac connection to the battery neg terminal ::)
Engine might have been running at that point, can't remember :-\
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So what i decided to do to test that feed was....
1. Ignition on.
2. Link into it with a live feed from the + Batt.
3. Run the car up to temp.
4. Then watch that bleeding light flash and give me the 300 & 306 code.
5. Remove link from + batt.
6. Engine off.
7. Torch car
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What's the history around this problem and how / when did it first present?
Is it missing on all three on the 246 bank?
Have you looked at all the live data especially lambdas?
Sorry I've not read the thread in detail, please feel free to point me at any related threads :y :y
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What's the history around this problem and how / when did it first present?
Is it missing on all three on the 246 bank?
Have you looked at all the live data especially lambdas?
Sorry I've not read the thread in detail, please feel free to point me at any related threads :y :y
Hi again James To answer your questions in order ..
The problem started on the first turn of the key after Having..new stat/cambelt/water pump/..Breathers/plugs/Fuel filter.
It sounded bad like a lifter had lost its oil..a real bad knocking and instantly thrown up p0300 then p0306 then p0304.
since then it had a brand new Bosch 246 coil pack put in.. And no change..
It only fails once warmed up to temp. But from start up you can tell when listening to it that its sort of firing on all 6 but you can tell one is slightly missing...
Once you get the 300 code up all cylinders start to fall on that bank 6 then 4 then 2... Ecu shuts the fuel off
Live data Took some again today... Will up it on my next post :y
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Can I come and take a look? No charge :y
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You probably know this already, but the ecu cutting the fuel upon detecting the misfire is normal behaviour :)
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I have to ask this, just from a fresh eyes perspective.
I have no idea who installed the belt. So I mean no offence. If it was one of our regulars eg daz/serek/pete etc I don't suspect it.. But if it was an unknown to OOF, are we sure the valve timing is ok?
No offence meant at all, but it's a big co incidence it's just started immediately after it's been apart, so have to consider these possibilities :y
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I have to ask this, just from a fresh eyes perspective.
I have no idea who installed the belt. So I mean no offence. If it was one of our regulars eg daz/serek/pete etc I don't suspect it.. But if it was an unknown to OOF, are we sure the valve timing is ok?
No offence meant at all, but it's a big co incidence it's just started immediately after it's been apart, so have to consider these possibilities :y
To put your mind at rest on that one ...Daz...
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I have to ask this, just from a fresh eyes perspective.
I have no idea who installed the belt. So I mean no offence. If it was one of our regulars eg daz/serek/pete etc I don't suspect it.. But if it was an unknown to OOF, are we sure the valve timing is ok?
No offence meant at all, but it's a big co incidence it's just started immediately after it's been apart, so have to consider these possibilities :y
To put your mind at rest on that one ...Daz...
Ok cool, unless there has been a freak incident with perhaps the parts then I very much doubt any problems there
I arrive home from Spain on Sunday, and have a few days off where I'm not doing much.
Want me to come lend a second pair of eyes? I will swap the loom out for you too if you wish.
No cost, although you can buy me a pint if we fix it ;D
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/lives.jpg)
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See above offer of a little OOF spirit ;) :y
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See above offer of a little OOF spirit ;) :y
I will take you up on that offer james and gladly sort you out :y
Knock sensors are constantly inactive
And knock sensor signal bank 1&2 0v
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I don't want anything for it mate, I want to get involved in OOF a bit more than I have been, I need to get out of chores, and I've not forgotten I kinda owe you a favour from a while ago. The only payment I will take is a pint, preferably Guinness :D
See you Monday or tues then ? :y
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I don't want anything for it mate, I want to get involved in OOF a bit more than I have been, I need to get out of chores, and I've not forgotten I kinda owe you a favour from a while ago. The only payment I will take is a pint, preferably Guinness :D
See you Monday or tues then ? :y
OK james sounds good to me.. :y
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PS there is all the Knock readings :y
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/knock.jpg)
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Just let me know which day suits best :y
You'll have to pm me your address and number etc, no doubt I've lost it since I last saw you
:y
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Just let me know which day suits best :y
You'll have to pm me your address and number etc, no doubt I've lost it since I last saw you
:y
PM sent james :y
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For James' benefit... been over this with Bigtime in detail over the last six weeks or so...
Mine suffered the exact same issue, the only symptoms being missfire once warm (0300 0306 always, other cylinders if left idling for any time once missing started) and coil 6 showing 40kv against 60kv for other 5 cylinders (tested with three different coil packs from other working cars at the 2011 Lakes meet by a very patient MarksDTM... same result each time... pot 6 was 20kv light)
Bigtime has investigated the issue far more scientifically than my efforts but has changed the same components in a similar order :y
FWIW mine was cured with a new (sh) loom, although this took two goes :-\
New coil packs, plugs and known good injectors and ecu all made no difference, which only left the loom. First loom was better, but still played up occasionally, second loom resolved it.
Might be worth acquiring the loom from Robsey MV6s breaker if it's still available... 3.2 auto, with about 45k iirc :y
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Massive thanks for the info al :y
I do have a spare 3.2 loom to take. If it's needed. I will need it replaced though as it's from my 3.2 saloon project :y
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Al, I might be thinking of a totally different person or car, but did you have an issue with a chewed up plug electrode damaging a valve?
Or is that totally unrelated?
I'm guessing unrelated in this case, given multiple cylinders affected! :y
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That happened first, but I now believe that to be either a symptom or a coincidence... everything else is as Bigtimes issue :y
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For James' benefit... been over this with Bigtime in detail over the last six weeks or so...
Mine suffered the exact same issue, the only symptoms being missfire once warm (0300 0306 always, other cylinders if left idling for any time once missing started) and coil 6 showing 40kv against 60kv for other 5 cylinders (tested with three different coil packs from other working cars at the 2011 Lakes meet by a very patient MarksDTM... same result each time... pot 6 was 20kv light)
Bigtime has investigated the issue far more scientifically than my efforts but has changed the same components in a similar order :y
FWIW mine was cured with a new (sh) loom, although this took two goes :-\
New coil packs, plugs and known good injectors and ecu all made no difference, which only left the loom. First loom was better, but still played up occasionally, second loom resolved it.
Might be worth acquiring the loom from Robsey MV6s breaker if it's still available... 3.2 auto, with about 45k iirc :y
Got that in the post.. :y
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Now for the 02 readings that i never put up last night...The voltage on Bank 1 Sensor 2 Stands out like a sore Thumb :-\
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/bank1%2002.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/bank2%2002.jpg)
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Lambda behaviour is perfectly normal, giving that the ecu is sodding around with the fuel trims trying to keep it running...
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Yup. And sensor 2 doesn't control fuelling, it's job is to put an annoying light on the dash, I mean, to measure the cat efficiency! ;D
Big time if I start by checking real basics, please don't be offended, I don't question you or daz in any way, I'm just treating everything as an unknown to me as part of my troubleshooting process :y
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Yup. And sensor 2 doesn't control fuelling, it's job is to put an annoying light on the dash, I mean, to measure the cat efficiency! ;D
Big time if I start by checking real basics, please don't be offended, I don't question you or daz in any way, I'm just treating everything as an unknown to me as part of my troubleshooting process :y
There is no worry in that area ;D ;D ;D
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Today I spent the day at BIGTime's place trying to find out what's going on with this. We had a good laugh and an enjoyable day :)
To recap. This is a 75k 3.2 V6 Omega in good shape. I have come in with some fresh eyes to have a look at what's going on with it.
The facts as given to me, are
1) Steve purchased the car. He did around 500 miles in it, with no issue. Nice and quiet, no misfires, no trouble codes, EMLs or nasty noises.
2) After driving it for these 500 miles, he took it for a Cambelt kit change, new cam covers, thermostat, and new spark plugs x 6.
3) When this work was done, immediately upon starting it, Steve noticed a very loud metallic noise, and the car was running like a bag of spanners. Not a faint tap - the kind of squeaky bum noise that makes you run for the key to turn it off!
4) Due to this, the car was immediately stripped down so the work could all be double checked again. The Cambelt setup (valve timing) was found to be fine. The cam covers were also removed - especially the 2-4-6 one where the nasty noise seemed to originate from, with a view to making sure there were no foreign objects. None were found.
5) After this was checked, the car was re assembled, and still sounded very "tappy". As the cause could not be found, Steve drove the car away, and has covered 300 or 400 miles or so since then.
6) In that time, the nasty metallic noise has now disappeared. Steve was however, left with the problem he describes in this thread, which is a misfire on the 2-4-6 bank, with present misfire DTC's being stored in the Engine ECU for all of the cylinders on this bank.
7) Steve has changed the coil pack on this bank in the hope it would cure it, for a new coil pack. No change - problem still exactly the same. This has basically led on to this thread, where Steve is now suspecting, and has been testing, the engine loom, thinking there may be an electrical fault.
Today's findings
I have basically come in as a fresh pair of eyes, to look at the facts and try and diagnose the issue objectively, and as such have started with the real basics, based around "why is this bank misfiring".
The first test I conducted was a compression test.
Results are, approximately, as follows
1 - 195psi
3 - 200psi
5 - 200psi
2- 115 psi
4 - 110 psi
6 - 90psi
So - the 2-4-6 bank (the one logging the misfire codes) is seriously lacking compression - the worst cylinder being around half the compression compared with the good bank. The test was repeated again with exactly the same results.
I checked the valve timing at this point to ensure some freak event hadn't caused the belt to jump. The belt was fine, the marks on the pulleys were in keeping with the marks on the setting tool with the crank locked at TDC - so the belt setup was OK.
I then removed the inlet manifold and bridge and looked at the inlet valves with a torch. The top of rear inlet valve on the bank with no compression was very black and sooty. The others quite clean.
I then removed the camcovers to check for any potential foreign objects. Nothing of note found.
At this point, the only thing for it, at this stage, was to whip the 2-4-6 head off for further investigation, so this is what I've done.
Pictures are below, but as you can see there is damage to the cylinder head around the valve area on each three cylinders. There is also damage to each piston, although I think we'll get away with smoothing the crowns a little bit. It's almost as if they have all had some bits of spark plug flying around in the bores (I think AL had this problem once, and possibly someone else too) - but on all three cylinders - AND just after it had been apart?
I don't have the old plugs for inspection, but Steve has seen them and thinks they were ok.
The next step is going to be to fit a known good head (one I have personally ground the valves into) and see if this restores the compression, and the misfire codes, and then take things from there.
Who knows - there may indeed be a loom issue - but - I have to fix the basic and obvious faults first, so they are taken totally out of the equation, before anything else can be looked at. And I can't ignore a 100psi compression drop as part of the diagnostic process.
A few pictures below. Steve's camera was playing up so they are taken on my rather dated iPhone, not the best quality but will give a good indication of what's been seen.
We are planning to do the rebuild hopefully later this week.
Steve and I would appreciate members comments on the pictures, and the circumstances/details I've described above.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshbwxpkhn.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps1ilpm46w.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7fq9joen.jpg)
Looking at the bore walls, they seem to have got away with it, there is no scoring, just the normal looking hone marks. The crank also rotates freely and the pistons move up and down OK.
I can only imagine that whatever has got chewed up in here, has somehow gotten into the valves and affected their seating, which is what has caused the compression drop.
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And on this picture Showing damage to the piston, You can just make out where the bore escaped damage.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/bore.JPG)
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Which brings us neatly back to sparkplug failure...
The question being, what causes a spark plug to do this...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=82787.0;all
Pics not the best, but 4th one is the dead plug...
Once plugs were all replaced, the missfire remained on that cylinder until the second loom change, having been proven to being a loom problem.
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Which brings us neatly back to sparkplug failure...
The question being, what causes a spark plug to do this...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=82787.0;all
Pics not the best, but 4th one is the dead plug...
Once plugs were all replaced, the missfire remained on that cylinder until the second loom change, having been proven to being a loom problem.
Not for one minute questioning your loom failed mate, but I'm sure you'll see in this case, the head had to come off for further repairs, after those compression readings.
What I'm also confused about, is why it was good as gold for 500 miles prior to it being worked on, and then immediately when it was started afterwards, it was so rough. The work appears to have been to a good standard, and I've nothing bad to say about the chap who did it, his work is very good. But on the same note, it's a massive co-incidence that it's just happened immediately after the Cambelt change etc.
I'm just trying to work out what the link / cause is :-\
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You missed my question... what causes the plugs to disintegrate? As that's clearly what has happened here too...
My compression test results are in that thread too... looks like I dodged a bullet :-\
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You missed my question... what causes the plugs to disintegrate? As that's clearly what has happened here too...
Ah ok. I could only imagine running lean would be the most likely cause - excess heat eroding them away?
But why - is a mystery.
This one did have a MAF code when Steve first bought it and the MAF was changed, which got rid of it.
But it still doesn't explain why these problems started immediately the key was turned, after servicing work, and was OK for hundreds of miles beforehand. I can't actually answer why or what went wrong, if anything there. It just seems like too massive a co-incidence.
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Could a weak spark make any given cylinder effectively lean out, ie produce the same effects as running lean?
Again, it could be coincidence, but that was the first and only time I fitted twins to my car... I wonder if quads are less susceptible :-\
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Could a weak spark make any given cylinder effectively lean out, ie produce the same effects as running lean?
Again, it could be coincidence, but that was the first and only time I fitted twins to my car... I wonder if quads are less susceptible :-\
I'd imagine more susceptible, due to the electrodes on the quads being quite a bit thinner.. :-\ But I really don't know...
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/lifter1.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/lifter2.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/lifter3.JPG)
Look different after a closer inspection james
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Post some pics of the cam shells too on the 2-4-6 bank mate (the ones starting with "R" before the number :y
Looking at the pic of the heads again, it looks like too much damage to be an electrode or 2, maybe? :-\
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If it were a spark plug, wouldn't broken plugs have been removed at some point?
Odd for it to happen on all 3 cylinders at once. Would have thought the first failed plug would have prompted investigation, on account of the misfire, as in AL's case. :-\
That first piston picture makes me wonder if part of the ring land has burnt / been chipped away towards the top of the picture.
Any sign of damage to the valve guides?
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If it were a spark plug, wouldn't broken plugs have been removed at some point?
Odd for it to happen on all 3 cylinders at once. Would have thought the first failed plug would have prompted investigation, on account of the misfire, as in AL's case. :-\
That first piston picture makes me wonder if part of the ring land has burnt / been chipped away towards the top of the picture.
Any sign of damage to the valve guides?
My thoughts exactly re all three at once. Which, combined with the fact it was OK before the work was done, and now has very low compression, AND Steve saw the old plugs (on which it was running fine) were ok - leads me to believe it's not spark electrodes being eaten in there?? :-\
Looking through the holes the valve guides look ok - not had chance to take any valves out yet though...
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To be in the cylinder, it has to be either from summat always present... valves, pistons or plugs, or summat induced, ie in via the inlet tracts...
Anything else such as timing gear would remain on top of the head... so any cam or lifter damage would be due to debris fouling the exhaust valves on the way out. Be interesting to see what they look like :-\
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Ref the piston Kevin - I thought that too, however spinning the crank slowly, they all appear to look like that, as they come up from the bottom..
A bit of oil also went into the holes before the next compression test, which didn't affect results..
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/cap3.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/cap4.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/cap5.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/cap6.JPG)
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This reminds me of the damage evident in Mick Dundees 2.6 engine a few years back. Only more severe. There was a suggestion his car had been through flooded roads during a trip to Newent. Bad enough for the engine to "possibly" ingest water.
But why does it always seem to be the 2,4,6 head?
Post 177
http://oldsite.omegaowners.com//forum/YaBB.pl?num=1236287115/all
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Are those the inlet or exhaust cam bearing caps?
As for it always being the 246 side, arguably the intake is nearer the air supply being on the righthand side of the engine :-\ Or perhaps a temperature issue... that side of the engine is relatively crowded :-\
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What's in the back of my mind, is the fuel trims when fiddling with LPG. They don't go both lean, or both rich. 1 bank goes rich, Tother lean. I forget which though, and I've never seen them go out on petrol to see if it's normal on petrol, or something is arse backwards on LPG. ...or it's simply that plus/minus is allocated wrong (on the software :-X)
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So, if the maf is failing, would one bank go lean (246) and tother rich...? (As I've seen with mine on gas and the software that won't ge named)
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So, if the maf is failing, would one bank go lean (246) and tother rich...? (As I've seen with mine on gas and the software that won't ge named)
Nope
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Are those the inlet or exhaust cam bearing caps?
As for it always being the 246 side, arguably the intake is nearer the air supply being on the righthand side of the engine :-\ Or perhaps a temperature issue... that side of the engine is relatively crowded :-\
Both... They are all like it :y
They all look like they have had sandpaper around them
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Those cam caps have been fitted in the wrong place/orientation in the past I would infer by looking at the wear.
But clearly they are not contributing to the issues.
Do a valve leak down test to check where the compression loss is before doing anything.
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Do a valve leak down test to check where the compression loss is before doing anything.
Bit late for that if James has already pulled the head off, no?
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Er no, fit plugs, turn head over and fill combustion chambers with a suitable fluid (not water). :y
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Do a valve leak down test to check where the compression loss is before doing anything.
Bit late for that if James has already pulled the head off, no?
No this test requires head off :y
Really struggling to get a head gasket for tonorrow, I have all the other parts on the side!
Annoyingly I have y26se head gaskets and x30xe composite ones but no bloody metal y32se ones!
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Have had the head flat, upside down, for about an hour.
Plugs in, each well full of white spirit
Number six has dropped notably. Guessing 2mm.
Number four has dropped a tiny bit. Still detectable by eye
Same for number two
Consistent with the compression test...
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No its not.....that's a bit more concerning as such a small amount of loss would not result in such a big compression loss.
Which port is it running into?
Exhaust or Inlet.
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Appears to be the inlet port, if I wipe my finger in there it's wet with white spirit, whereas exhaust port looks dry
In fact I may have mis judged, pot 6 is now half emptied between now and my previous post...
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That would be consistent with the first picture in the thread I linked to... although compression was only a touch down :-\
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That's still nothing, on Brians car, which had a lump missing out of the exhaust valve, the compression ratio achieved was similar but the fluid ran out in seconds...... :y
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Shall I start removing valves? :y
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(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpspmooq3y7.jpg)
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On that cylinder its worth doing so, check if the guides are tight. :y
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The valves that took the least were the two inlets on pot 2
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/3cylinders.JPG)
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On that cylinder its worth doing so, check if the guides are tight. :y
Ok just making a cuppa and I will go and dust off the spring compressor :D
I've just spent the last hour removing a proven good head from my 3.2 project, we are looking to refit this / retest tomorrow :y
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I accept it may be the pictures/angle, but I'm still not convinced those pistons look true in the bores.......
I will have a look at the one I just stripped for comparison...
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I also say the damage to the piston crowns and heads is too excessive to be a plug electrode
I also don't buy that it's happened to all three cylinders...
Given it was ok before it was worked on, some sudden event has caused this loss of compression.
But what? :(
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Its not, that is pretty typical plug electrode damage......but how come those pistons are not pocketed.....is there an R number on the block code?
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Maybe the Y32SE ones are not pocketed, the Y26SE ones are.....
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(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsvyjsauo8.jpg)
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This is the no6 inlet valve from the port where most of the damage was...
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(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k205/jamesv6cdx/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsgggvssbq.jpg)
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So the foreign object has caught the seat resulting in some minor valve erosion, how deep is that erosion?
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Er no, fit plugs, turn head over and fill combustion chambers with a suitable fluid (not water). :y
*facepalm* D'oh, yeah.. I had that thought riiight after I hit Post and walked away ;D Failure to engage brain before posting on my part (I was thinking cylinder leak down test) :-[
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So the foreign object has caught the seat resulting in some minor valve erosion, how deep is that erosion?
It's not enormous, but noticible. I can't find any other cause for the low compression on that cylinder
I wanted to find something more conclusive, really :(
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Ps valve guides nice and tight...
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Ps valve guides nice and tight...
Nice and tight or to tight?
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As in spot on, I've rebuilt a few of these heads and feels fine by my (albeit DIY) experience
Shall we just fit the known good head now and see what happens? :-\
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Ok new head all cleaned, just off to pressure wash it and we will see what happens tomorrow :y
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So the foreign object has caught the seat resulting in some minor valve erosion, how deep is that erosion?
Seen exactly the same when i took the head off a Vectra B , never did find what caused it :(
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James Do you think the foreign Objects Had to be harder than the surfaces that have been damaged
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James Do you think the foreign Objects Had to be harder than the surfaces that have been damaged
The electrodes on a spark plug could easily do that as they and the pistons are steel, whereas the head is soft as toffee aluminum ::)
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James Do you think the foreign Objects Had to be harder than the surfaces that have been damaged
The electrodes on a spark plug could easily do that as they and the pistons are steel, whereas the head is soft as toffee aluminum ::)
And what possible situation could there be where 3 electrodes have all came off :-\
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James Do you think the foreign Objects Had to be harder than the surfaces that have been damaged
The electrodes on a spark plug could easily do that as they and the pistons are steel, whereas the head is soft as toffee aluminum ::)
And what possible situation could there be where 3 electrodes have all came off :-\
Crap plugs :-\
That said, mine were GM twins... but all were loose after only 500 miles. So wonder if the electrical issue causes it to run lean, knackering the plugs due to a weak spark, leading to them going brittle and falling apart...
Anything in your history regarding investigative head/cam work? For the cam caps to be fitted wrongly to wear as they have (as per Marks suggestion), could the cams have been removed to check the lifters?
If the only cam history is when you put the car in for a cambelt/service, how long did they have the car for? Someone might have been trying to hide summat :-\
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James Do you think the foreign Objects Had to be harder than the surfaces that have been damaged
The electrodes on a spark plug could easily do that as they and the pistons are steel, whereas the head is soft as toffee aluminum ::)
And what possible situation could there be where 3 electrodes have all came off :-\
Crap plugs :-\
That said, mine were GM twins... but all were loose after only 500 miles. So wonder if the electrical issue causes it to run lean, knackering the plugs due to a weak spark, leading to them going brittle and falling apart...
Anything in your history regarding investigative head/cam work? For the cam caps to be fitted wrongly to wear as they have (as per Marks suggestion), could the cams have been removed to check the lifters?
If the only cam history is when you put the car in for a cambelt/service, how long did they have the car for? Someone might have been trying to hide summat :-\
The cam shells were all in the correct orientation and positions when we stripped it..
Even if it were three plugs that failed...
The question remains unanswered - why was this car having no problems prior to the Cambelt/service/camcovers/stat work - and making nasty metallic noises + misfiring the minute the key was turned after the work?
I'm only asking the question for one reason - to get to the bottom of the fault.
It's just too big a co incidence IMHO that it was fine before the work and so rough straight after
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I've seen three engines with similar damage listed on here.
Mick Dundees
Taxi Al's
This one belonging to Bigtime.
Why have all three involved the 246 bank? It can't all be to do with access and the cable tray, surely?
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Any word on previous work?
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James Do you think the foreign Objects Had to be harder than the surfaces that have been damaged
The electrodes on a spark plug could easily do that as they and the pistons are steel, whereas the head is soft as toffee aluminum ::)
And what possible situation could there be where 3 electrodes have all came off :-\
Crap plugs :-\
That said, mine were GM twins... but all were loose after only 500 miles. So wonder if the electrical issue causes it to run lean, knackering the plugs due to a weak spark, leading to them going brittle and falling apart...
Anything in your history regarding investigative head/cam work? For the cam caps to be fitted wrongly to wear as they have (as per Marks suggestion), could the cams have been removed to check the lifters?
If the only cam history is when you put the car in for a cambelt/service, how long did they have the car for? Someone might have been trying to hide summat :-\
The cam shells were all in the correct orientation and positions when we stripped it..
Even if it were three plugs that failed...
The question remains unanswered - why was this car having no problems prior to the Cambelt/service/camcovers/stat work - and making nasty metallic noises + misfiring the minute the key was turned after the work?
I'm only asking the question for one reason - to get to the bottom of the fault.
It's just too big a co incidence IMHO that it was fine before the work and so rough straight after
Those cam caps have been fitted in the wrong place/orientation in the past I would infer by looking at the wear.
But clearly they are not contributing to the issues.
Do a valve leak down test to check where the compression loss is before doing anything.
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I get marks comments, but naturally I can only comment on what i saw on strip down. We'll probably never know it's full history...
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But even if the cam shells had been fitted wrongly in the past. Still nobody knows - why was it fine before the Cambelt , covers, stat and plugs were changed, and fubar'd immediately after?
Co incidence?
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Any word on previous work?
Got service history in front of me last service says 73000 7/10/14
Looking back in service book.. only plug change in there is at 53000 14/6/10 main dealer
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James Do you think the foreign Objects Had to be harder than the surfaces that have been damaged
The electrodes on a spark plug could easily do that as they and the pistons are steel, whereas the head is soft as toffee aluminum ::)
And what possible situation could there be where 3 electrodes have all came off :-\
Crap plugs :-\
That said, mine were GM twins... but all were loose after only 500 miles. So wonder if the electrical issue causes it to run lean, knackering the plugs due to a weak spark, leading to them going brittle and falling apart...
Anything in your history regarding investigative head/cam work? For the cam caps to be fitted wrongly to wear as they have (as per Marks suggestion), could the cams have been removed to check the lifters?
If the only cam history is when you put the car in for a cambelt/service, how long did they have the car for? Someone might have been trying to hide summat :-\
The cam shells were all in the correct orientation and positions when we stripped it..
Even if it were three plugs that failed...
The question remains unanswered - why was this car having no problems prior to the Cambelt/service/camcovers/stat work - and making nasty metallic noises + misfiring the minute the key was turned after the work?
I'm only asking the question for one reason - to get to the bottom of the fault.
It's just too big a co incidence IMHO that it was fine before the work and so rough straight after
On that one james.. it was clearly a Knocking noise like a weak lifter
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But even if the cam shells had been fitted wrongly in the past. Still nobody knows - why was it fine before the recent work, and fubar'd immediately after?
Co incidence?
Plugs not properly tightened, loom breaking down causing weak sparks, 642 is the order of the injector SUPPLY coupled with the relative extra heat in that side of the engine bay (left side is very cluttered) all adding up to electrode damage which results in plug disintegration and the debris damage witnessed.
When my plug disintegrated, I was in third, hammer down joining a motorway, the bang and subsequent misfire was quite unsettling ;D
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Any word on previous work?
Got service history in front of me last service says 73000 7/10/14
Looking back in service book.. only plug change in there is at 53000 14/6/10 main dealer
Who fitted the plugs recently? And what plugs were fitted?
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Any word on previous work?
Got service history in front of me last service says 73000 7/10/14
Looking back in service book.. only plug change in there is at 53000 14/6/10 main dealer
Who fitted the plugs recently? And what plugs were fitted?
do you mean when i had belt and all done
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Yup :y
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Yup :y
Darth Loo-knee :y
The plugs that came out were good and could of stayed in But they were all replaced with twin electrodes GM..
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Yup :y
Darth Loo-knee :y
The plugs that came out were good and could of stayed in But they were all replaced with twin electrodes GM..
Are these still intact?
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They are all perfect
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Yup :y
Darth Loo-knee :y
The plugs that came out were good and could of stayed in But they were all replaced with twin electrodes GM..
And this Is what I don't get!!
Car is running fine, no issues
Car has belt, camcovers, plugs and stat done
Car then immediately has a misfire which is since found to be very poor compression on one bank
Is there any relevance in the fact this happened immediately after the key was turned following servicing work? Or is this a red herring / big co incidence
I'm not suggesting anything. As it may well be co incidence.
I just need to get it straight in my head because other than the little bit of inlet valve damage all seemed ok :-\
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246 coil pac ok? Any damage? (I'm sure you would of checked, but it would run on 90psi compression, until, possibly, the spark got weak...? )
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246 coil pac ok? Any damage? (I'm sure you would of checked, but it would run on 90psi compression, until, possibly, the spark got weak...? )
Coil pack changed as part of the elimination process before I got there mate : y
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They are all perfect
Hmmm, this is my convinced face...
(http://www.testedich.de/quiz31/picture/pic_1352825069_12.jpg)
:-\
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They are all perfect
Hmmm, this is my convinced face...
(http://www.testedich.de/quiz31/picture/pic_1352825069_12.jpg)
:-\
Lol!!!
Sadly to me, investigating as an outsider, the old plugs are an unknown to me
But if daz / Steve think they were ok, I've no reason to disbelieve :y
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james i cannot explain the knocking straight the way on start up...
But this is one thought.....before i had belt/stat ETC done i never ever seen any 300 codes..now i see them all the time once the engine gets up to temp...Well lets face it. car never got up to full temp with stat wide open and how cold it was a few weeks ago.but now it gets up to temp ..And thats when codes come .. Just a thought
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james i cannot explain the knocking straight the way on start up...
But this is one thought.....before i had belt/stat ETC done i never ever seen any 300 codes..now i see them all the time once the engine gets up to temp...Well lets face it. car never got up to full temp with stat wide open and how cold it was a few weeks ago.but now it gets up to temp ..And thats when codes come .. Just a thought
Mine was the same... the second the fans kicked in, 0300, 0306...
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When the belt ETC was done.. i turned the key for the first time and it was Knocking like hell...We then instantly ended up in my boot going through all the waste to have a second look at the old plugs,To make sure no electrode had fell off (i remember that part very well) All old plugs were good
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We may never know...
But we need to sort out the compression issue before even contemplating looking at anything else.... Else we will just chase our tail :y
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When the belt ETC was done.. i turned the key for the first time and it was Knocking like hell...
This is my worry and why I'm worried a foreign object was introduced at this stage.
Why would it be fine before and then knock so much after the work, to the point it has to be stripped to Check it all again?
If the engine had been turned loads and loads the lifters might be depleted of oil, but I sill wouldn't expect the noise to be of such concern that it warrant a further strip down...
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Anything bigger than an electrode would have been much more devastating... and I suspect the damage is only as it is because it happened at idle... higher revs under load and the debris would have been cleared out by the combustion process...
Anything smaller simply wouldn't damage anything...
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When the belt ETC was done.. i turned the key for the first time and it was Knocking like hell...
This is my worry and why I'm worried a foreign object was introduced at this stage.
Why would it be fine before and then knock so much after the work, to the point it has to be stripped to Check it all again?
If the engine had been turned loads and loads the lifters might be depleted of oil, but I sill wouldn't expect the noise to be of such concern that it warrant a further strip down...
It deffo warranted a further strip down..It sounded bad..Like a lifter.....Timing Belt was rechecked..Aux belt was then removed to be sure water pump was ok. then finally Cam covers were off again to make sure no foreign object had been introduced to engine.Plugs were also out again to check
Nothing was found....
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We might never know.
The important thing is. Will a good head fix the compression issue
I guess tomorrow will tell!
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We might never know.
The important thing is. Will a good head fix the compression issue
I guess tomorrow will tell!
Could the rough valves be reground in the seat and the head refitted?
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We might never know.
The important thing is. Will a good head fix the compression issue
I guess tomorrow will tell!
Could the rough valves be reground in the seat and the head refitted?
Possibly
But in the circs, I'd rather fit a known good head so there is no question :y
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We might never know.
The important thing is. Will a good head fix the compression issue
I guess tomorrow will tell!
Could the rough valves be reground in the seat and the head refitted?
Possibly
But in the circs, I'd rather fit a known good head so there is no question :y
Cos you have piston rings thoughts in your head dont you :-\
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We might never know.
The important thing is. Will a good head fix the compression issue
I guess tomorrow will tell!
Could the rough valves be reground in the seat and the head refitted?
Possibly
But in the circs, I'd rather fit a known good head so there is no question :y
Cos you have piston rings thoughts in your head dont you :-\
I still think valves are much more likely....
But if fitting a known good head still results in low compression - what else?
-
We might never know.
The important thing is. Will a good head fix the compression issue
I guess tomorrow will tell!
Could the rough valves be reground in the seat and the head refitted?
Possibly
But in the circs, I'd rather fit a known good head so there is no question :y
Cos you have piston rings thoughts in your head dont you :-\
There would be significant scoring of the bores if the fire rings had escaped... rather than simple machine marks :-\
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The damage to the pistons doesn't look new to me - there appears to be carbon build up hiding the shiny aluminium that I would expect to see :-\
Unless someone carefully dropped some small stones or metal objects down each of the 2/4/6 inlet ports I think the piston crown damage is historic.
I think Taxi Al might be on the right track looking for something electrical but I think it is (or was) something more basic - say a connector that was just touching rather than clicked together or a wire that is making intermittent contact - enough to break the low tension circuit to the 2/4/6 coils at a critical moment (about 50deg before TDC by the sound of it)
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If it was running like a bag of spanners before the heads came off there could be significant bore wash. That would kill the compression without immediate ill effects to the cylinders or piston rings (wouldn't take long before it did do some damage though)
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The damage to the pistons doesn't look new to me - there appears to be carbon build up hiding the shiny aluminium that I would expect to see :-\
Unless someone carefully dropped some small stones or metal objects down each of the 2/4/6 inlet ports I think the piston crown damage is historic.
I think Taxi Al might be on the right track looking for something electrical but I think it is (or was) something more basic - say a connector that was just touching rather than clicked together or a wire that is making intermittent contact - enough to break the low tension circuit to the 2/4/6 coils at a critical moment (about 50deg before TDC by the sound of it)
I don't disagree Andy there is no way to tell when the piston damage occurred...
Are we basically saying it could run ok 100 psi down on a cylinder and that the misfire that occurred after the service is unrelated?
If we can restore compression, we will at least have a brilliant slate to start from :y
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If it was running like a bag of spanners before the heads came off there could be significant bore wash. That would kill the compression without immediate ill effects to the cylinders or piston rings (wouldn't take long before it did do some damage though)
It did 400 miles between the work and me taking the head off , plus, it didn't improve with oil :/
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If it was running like a bag of spanners before the heads came off there could be significant bore wash. That would kill the compression without immediate ill effects to the cylinders or piston rings (wouldn't take long before it did do some damage though)
It did 400 miles between the work and me taking the head off , plus, it didn't improve with oil :/
I missed that bit :-\
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Forget the rings talk...Bores look Just dandy :y
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Forget the rings talk...Bores look Just dandy :y
They aren't suggesting the rings as such, just the possibility Unburnt fuel could cause the low compression :y
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When I did my compression test... first run at pot 6 was 4 bar instead of 9.2 bar of the second run, but that was with a flat battery...
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When I did my compression test... first run at pot 6 was 4 bar instead of 9.2 bar of the second run, but that was with a flat battery...
Yeah we thought about that, but we started at pot 6. Also revisited it again to find low compression.
We even checked cyl 135 after that to make sure the low reading wasn't flat battery, and the 135 bank was 200psi still :y
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Fair enough :y
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Fair enough :y
Cheers for the thought though. Bottom line is, I really want to get this sorted for Steve :y
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First of all i would like to thank everyone on here for putting there thoughts into this one.. And i mean everyone... James for putting his time in... Al.. who must get sick of me picking his brains over the loom ...MarkDTM ...Chris..aaronjb..Andyh..Emd..Kevin wood,,ITs dragged on for 13 pages Of TBs Hard drive ;D ;D ;D ;D
So its been over 24 hrs of james findings ......
Its time to vote ;D ;D ;D ;D
My first thoughts were that a foreign part entered the cam 246 area From the thermostat Chisel out and got smashed up by the cams and then passed by the lifters and entered the bores....i now see that has a real stupid thought :-[ :-[ :-[
The main on this thread keep jumping onto Spark plug electrodes So i am going to go with that idea For now
So therefore 3 plugs lost there electrodes.....If so it was way before i bought the car... So is it they were crap plugs like Al says...Is it That a YTS put the wrong plugs in and they were too long and the piston hit them and snapped the electrodes (Then the crown will show this)And i think they would just bend.
OK So these 3 electrodes have bounced around in the cylinders Like mentioned tickover 10 sec on the key And done this damage then the mistake was realised ...That would explain the minimal damage
And thats where i come to a end with this Fantasy post Owing to when i looked at the car prior to buying i put the code reader on it ...100 Maf Only
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First of all i would like to thank everyone on here for putting there thoughts into this one.. And i mean everyone... James for putting his time in... Al.. who must get sick of me picking his brains over the loom ...MarkDTM ...Chris..aaronjb..Andyh..Emd..Kevin wood,,ITs dragged on for 13 pages Of TBs Hard drive ;D ;D ;D ;D
You're very welcome. As I said before I've no interest in who if anyone has made any potential mistakes in the cars past. I'm just trying to focus on facts with a view to getting you on the road :y
My first thoughts were that a foreign part entered the cam 246 area From the thermostat Chisel out and got smashed up by the cams and then passed by the lifters and entered the bores....i now see that has a real stupid thought :-[ :-[ :-[
I may have asked this before, but just confirm the 2-4-6 plugs were definitely not removed (exposing the bore) during the chiselling out of the stat housing/pipe? As it would be easy for a particle to fly around and enter the holes. Or the inlet ports - were they exposed or stuffed with rags?
The potential for such debris to fly when chiselling brittle alloy is high, and the smallest amount in the inlet ports or plug holes might explain what we are seeing, especially if the plugs removed during the service were definitely intact, and it was running ok before.
The main on this thread keep jumping onto Spark plug electrodes So i am going to go with that idea For now
So therefore 3 plugs lost there electrodes.....If so it was way before i bought the car... So is it they were crap plugs like Al says...Is it That a YTS put the wrong plugs in and they were too long and the piston hit them and snapped the electrodes (Then the crown will show this)And i think they would just bend.
OK So these 3 electrodes have bounced around in the cylinders Like mentioned tickover 10 sec on the key And done this damage then the mistake was realised ...That would explain the minimal damage
Thing is. If the plugs that were removed were intact, combined with the fact it was running fine before the work, means electrode damage isn't possibly the cause. It's some other sudden event causing the sudden running problem.
We'll put it back together later and see what happens. Shit or bust, no balls no glory, hope you have lots of tea bags still ;D :y :y
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First of all i would like to thank everyone on here for putting there thoughts into this one.. And i mean everyone... James for putting his time in... Al.. who must get sick of me picking his brains over the loom ...MarkDTM ...Chris..aaronjb..Andyh..Emd..Kevin wood,,ITs dragged on for 13 pages Of TBs Hard drive ;D ;D ;D ;D
So its been over 24 hrs of james findings ......
Its time to vote ;D ;D ;D ;D
My first thoughts were that a foreign part entered the cam 246 area From the thermostat Chisel out and got smashed up by the cams and then passed by the lifters and entered the bores....i now see that has a real stupid thought :-[ :-[ :-[
The main on this thread keep jumping onto Spark plug electrodes So i am going to go with that idea For now
So therefore 3 plugs lost there electrodes.....If so it was way before i bought the car... So is it they were crap plugs like Al says...Is it That a YTS put the wrong plugs in and they were too long and the piston hit them and snapped the electrodes (Then the crown will show this)And i think they would just bend.
OK So these 3 electrodes have bounced around in the cylinders Like mentioned tickover 10 sec on the key And done this damage then the mistake was realised ...That would explain the head damage
And thats where i come to a end with this Fantasy post Owing to when i looked at the car prior to buying i put the code reader on it ...100 Maf Only
Fixed :y
Had the engine been running faster, the combustion forces would have been greater and blown the debris out of the exhaust valves before they made such a mess of the heads :-\
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I vote on plug debris... anything smaller would have been irrelevant and anything bigger, such as a cam cover bolt would still be present having cracked the pistons :-\
Hopefully the fresh head and replacement loom will see it sorted for once and all :y
Good effort btw :y
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The inlets had kitchen roll down the to stop anything going into them when removing the thermostat.. The spark plugs were taken out individually which had no parts of electrode missing, then replaxed with new ones individually. The timing was bang on even after start up and re checked it was still bang on. The cam cover on the 2,4,6 side I thought I saw something shiny... after checking wondered if the sun had shone on the oil in there... before you say James I use a magnetic bowl to put bolts etc into, also no tools were missing... on start up the car sounded like a lifter was shagged... I have heard loads and that is what it sounded like. I myself was questioning what it could be, yet checking everything I had done over and over couldn't see what....
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The inlets had kitchen roll down the to stop anything going into them when removing the thermostat.. The spark plugs were taken out individually which had no parts of electrode missing, then replaxed with new ones individually. The timing was bang on even after start up and re checked it was still bang on. The cam cover on the 2,4,6 side I thought I saw something shiny... after checking wondered if the sun had shone on the oil in there... before you say James I use a magnetic bowl to put bolts etc into, also no tools were missing... on start up the car sounded like a lifter was shagged... I have heard loads and that is what it sounded like. I myself was questioning what it could be, yet checking everything I had done over and over couldn't see what....
This info is massively useful mate, cheers for this.
As I've said all along, not digging at anyone, or suggesting anything has been done wrong by you personally, so please don't think that at all, I've only been asking (which I accept might seem obvious questions) such as were holes covered, not to try and find fault with anyone's work, just so we can cross certain causes off the list and forget about them :y
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And all the inferior 2.6 and 3.2 design..
Oh Al, pistons are not steel :y
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Anyway less talking... Just loading up the car with tools, head, and dog, and heading up the motorway
I should be home by about 9pm with hopefully good news, watch this space :y :y
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FFS double puncture on the DTi >:(
Not going to mess with it now, will load up the other car instead. Will still be with you soon as I can :y
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And all the inferior 2.6 and 3.2 design..
Oh Al, pistons are not steel :y
Are they not... must be a harder cheese than the heads though from the pics :-\
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If they were steel they would be much to heavy hence they are aluminium alloy. :y
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I vote on plug debris
Secondeded :)
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Bah, get it fixed and back together. Nout else to be done really. :)
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Where the pistons don't look right in the bores have the rings broken up as they would cause this sort of damage to the pistons and cylinder heads. Would it be worth dropping the sump to see if there is any debris in there?
I had a Honda 250 K2 when I was 17, which revved to 10,500rpm. Where I used to thrash it to death, twice I broke the rings up on the left hand cylinder. There was never any bore damage but I did end up with a couple of marks in the head very reminiscent of what this cylinder head has! The signs were always lack of compression and a misfire on the left cylinder.
Just a thought before fitting a replacement head and still having the compression problem. Is it worth doing an oil test in the cylinders?
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Where the pistons don't look right in the bores have the rings broken up as they would cause this sort of damage to the pistons and cylinder heads. Would it be worth dropping the sump to see if there is any debris in there?
I had a Honda 250 K2 when I was 17, which revved to 10,500rpm. Where I used to thrash it to death, twice I broke the rings up on the left hand cylinder. There was never any bore damage but I did end up with a couple of marks in the head very reminiscent of what this cylinder head has! The signs were always lack of compression and a misfire on the left cylinder.
Just a thought before fitting a replacement head and still having the compression problem. Is it worth doing an oil test in the cylinders?
We felt Fairly sure there was no piston ring damage. So carried on from there..Its been a real long day. James will post up The results of the work done today, which Looks very positive :y
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Yep I'm too old to be working by 12v lights at midnight these days ;D
Will post fully in the morning :y
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So yesterday we re fitted a proven cylinder head to the 2-4-6 bank, and re built the engine back up.
Pleased to say that compression on this bank is now fully restored - the readings being in the region of 190psi per cylinder :y So even if the original head didn't look too bad valve wise - it was causing the drop :)
On this basis - we kept the original loom on there, as it looked as if the likely cause was now fixed.
Not long at all after startup, it was clearly idling rough, at the normal idle speed. The light began flashing . This led me to believe that perhaps the loom was indeed faulty!
Read the codes, and I had to do a double take - misfire codes for all the cylinders on the 1-3-5 BANK!! ???
What confused me even more, is that I looked at the live data, and saw that the main Lambda on bank 2 (the bank no longer reporting a misfire) was reading only between 20-50mv. As this bank was no longer misfiring, I expected this one to be cycling normally.
I looked at the lambda for bank 1, and despite this bank being the one complaining, it's lambda was, according to live data, cycling normally, between 30-700mv at operating temperature.
I couldn't see how this could really be possible, if the bank was misfiring that badly, and thought it should be the other way round. For this reason we suspected maybe the lambdas were wired the wrong way around.
In order to rule out any closed loop problems, I unplugged all the lambdas to force it into open loop to see if it would run normally on a default map. It didn't - the problem was exactly the same.
I have been reluctant to believe it's the loom, up until this point, but at this point I began thinking - maybe there is something going wrong in the loom - and decided to change the loom for Robsey's 40k one.
So, new loom in place. Ignition on, clear of the codes, and a hopeful turn of the key.
No change. Misfire 1-3-5 bank, all cylinders.
I tried running the engine without the 1-3-5 coil pack, and it actually doesn't run much differently at all. Slightly rougher, + a bit of a popping noise, but it's not much different without the coil pack plugged in. So at idle it's running pretty much solely on the 2-4-6 bank!
When fitting the new loom, I plugged the lambdas in one by one, and checked "software" to ensure I'd plugged the correct ones in. So lambdas in the right place.
It was at this point, I began thinking to myself that I need once more to be looking at real basics. As my mindset has worked all along - don't believe in co-incidences, the 2-4-6 problem has now been fixed, but can't help thinking that we have obviously introduced SOMETHING to cause the new 1-3-5 issue.
As a test, I ran the engine at 2,000 rpm, holding foot steady on the throttle. The engine EASILY ran on all six at this point, without question. Sounded absolutely lovely revving and wasn't a problem in any way. As I did this, Steve reset the codes, and waited for any to come back. Despite waiting some time, holding it at 2,000 rpm, no fault codes came, and it didn't misfire. As soon as it was returned to idle - rough idle and pesky misfire, again.
I stood in front of the engine listening for any clues at this point. There is absolutely no valve train / lifter noise. I can clearly hear the 2-4-6 fuel injectors ticking away sweetly. However when listening on the 1-3-5 bank I wasn't so sure. (the injectors hadn't been shut down by the ECU at this point)
Whilst stood in front of the engine, we noticed a lot of metallic small noises, that I don't remember hearing on any other V6, coming quite obviously from the electronic DBW throttle control unit. Took this off for a look, I was thinking - is there a really silly fault, for example, has the air flap come loose from the spindle!! So took it off to check. very gunged up at the rear of the throttle bodies, where the butterflies sit (Steve will confirm!) And at the close position, it seemed to stick closed on this gunge. We gave it a clean, within an inch of it's life, and it was then no longer sticking shut. Refitted it and hoped we'd get lucky - NAAAH! Same as before. Misfire 1-3-5.
I tried the engine without the MAF - no joy - same issue.
As a test, I unplugged the DBW unit and ran the engine, to see if it would put it on a default map etc and see what that would do.
At this point, it coughed for a second when started, and the best thing I can describe is the sound of when an LPG car, which isn't running well on gas, is switched onto petrol, and then runs well, it was as if the cylinders on 1-3-5 just suddenly all stepped back into life, and the engine was idling absolutely A1 - albeit very slightly higher idle.
I'm no longer really sure what to make of this. Sadly I didn't have my kit to test the spark on the 1-3-5 plugs, but this coil pack was fine before, what are the chances of it suddenly failing! I don't think that's happened.
- valve timing is fine. Steve checked it after I setup the belt etc.
I did question myself, as you do, and think did I put one of the 1-3-5 cams on the wrong keyway, but this can't be the case, as all the valves would open and close at the same time and I wouldn't get any compression, no?? Also I don't think it'd idle OK at 2,000 rpm if I'd done that. In fact I know I haven't done that. I just can't stop questioning myself!!
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. We've spent about 20 hours and travelled 400 miles for this engine now, so it deserves to be fixed!!!
I had to down tools (at midnight) as I was tired to the point of not thinking straight anymore. I'm having today off, and will have a look at the car perhaps tomorrow, or early next week, with a clear head, hopefully armed with a few OOF ideas! :y
For now? I'm not going anywhere near a car. I'm off to walk my dog to the pub for lunch. Washed down with about three pints of doombar. ::)
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What work has been done to the 135 head? What state are the plugs in on that side?
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What work has been done to the 135 head? What state are the plugs in on that side?
None, left in situ bar camshaft removal to allow is to rotate the 246 pistons to the top of the bores for cleaning / inspection
Plugs looked fine didn't smell of fuel :y
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Essex Big Al iirc had a similar issue with the throttle motor... could have been someone else in Essex, but I do remember Albs being involved in trying to fix it :-\
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One possibility I can think of is that the throttle shaft is bent, meaning an imbalance in the air supply to the two banks at idle, but, now I think about it, I think that one's blown out of the water by the manifold multiram valve being open at idle, so that would balance the airflow anyway.
A big enough air leak into one side of the plenum might do it...
What are the fuel trims and lambdas doing on the two banks immediately after they become active, before the misfire, and after a reset of the fuel trims? If they are dragging the fuelling far enough out to cause misfires, then the lambda sensor sill report silly values because the misfire admits air into the exhaust.
If I've understood, it ran correctly for a minute or two, indicating that it probably all went wrong when it went closed-loop, meaning likely a lambda sensor problem. When the lambdas were disconnected, were the fuel trims also reset? It could be that it was running with a stored fuel trim value even though the lambdas are now out of the equation.
A reset of the stored fuel trims and then a datalog of all parameters form cold until the misfire ensues would be interesting.
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One possibility I can think of is that the throttle shaft is bent, meaning an imbalance in the air supply to the two banks at idle, but, now I think about it, I think that one's blown out of the water by the manifold multiram valve being open at idle, so that would balance the airflow anyway.
A big enough air leak into one side of the plenum might do it...
What are the fuel trims and lambdas doing on the two banks immediately after they become active, before the misfire, and after a reset of the fuel trims? If they are dragging the fuelling far enough out to cause misfires, then the lambda sensor sill report silly values because the misfire admits air into the exhaust.
If I've understood, it ran correctly for a minute or two, indicating that it probably all went wrong when it went closed-loop, meaning likely a lambda sensor problem. When the lambdas were disconnected, were the fuel trims also reset? It could be that it was running with a stored fuel trim value even though the lambdas are now out of the equation.
A reset of the stored fuel trims and then a datalog of all parameters form cold until the misfire ensues would be interesting.
Hi kevin,
Fault codes were cleared upon lambda disconnection, it had no influence, still missing from idle at open loop
Plenum seating was triple checked. I'm wondering about the black inlet bridge now though!
The misfire on 135 btw is pretty much from cold, unlike the 246 problem which was only from hot..
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Purge valve and ecu coolant temp sensor plugs the correct way round?
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Purge valve and ecu coolant temp sensor plugs the correct way round?
Yep 100% :y
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Do you normally remove the fuel rain and inlet manifold together, or do you split them?
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Do you normally remove the fuel rain and inlet manifold together, or do you split them?
Together, as one :)
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Do you normally remove the fuel rain and inlet manifold together, or do you split them?
Together, as one :)
With the loom still attached/unplugged at bulkhead?
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Do you normally remove the fuel rain and inlet manifold together, or do you split them?
Together, as one :)
With the loom still attached/unplugged at bulkhead?
I usually unbolt it, move it out by a couple of inches for access (but no more so as not to stretch the wires) - I then reach in, unplug it, and remove :y
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Do you normally remove the fuel rain and inlet manifold together, or do you split them?
Together, as one :)
With the loom still attached/unplugged at bulkhead?
I usually unbolt it, move it out by a couple of inches for access (but no more so as not to stretch the wires) - I then reach in, unplug it, and remove :y
Ok :y no real chance of issues there then...
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Can you see petrol injector durations on the live data? Are they the same bank for bank, give or take a little?
Any knock sensor activity being reported?
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No problem putting live data up..Just need to no under what conditions Ie; hot/cold engine/rpm Etc;And exactly what readings :y
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Can you do us a snapshot from an immediate cold start today? :y
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From stone cold, through until it's warmed up, at idle rpm :y
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From stone cold, through until it's warmed up, at idle rpm :y
Ok james ...live data gives you about 3 readings per second.... Thats a lot of data to put up ;D ;D ;D
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From stone cold, through until it's warmed up, at idle rpm :y
Ok james ...live data gives you about 3 readings per second.... Thats a lot of data to put up ;D ;D ;D
Just do as much as you reasonably can from cold...
I'm thinking tomorrow or Monday for another look :y
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Just upload a CSV / Excel file somewhere with all the readings in.. assuming you're using the reader that shall remain nameless.(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26795734/Smilies/allrun.gif)
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Just upload a CSV / Excel file somewhere with all the readings in.. assuming you're using the reader that shall remain nameless.(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26795734/Smilies/allrun.gif)
Yep your correct.. Which reading do you want up owing to there being a lot of them and screen shot will be very very wide
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Fuel injector durations. I must be honest, I don't remember if I checked these :(
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If it's any use I should have a 2.6 throttle body and fuel rail gubbins in the shed that can be in the post tomorrow if it's any use, postage cost only !
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If it's any use I should have a 2.6 throttle body and fuel rail gubbins in the shed that can be in the post tomorrow if it's any use, postage cost only !
Thanks very much for kind offer :y
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If it's any use I should have a 2.6 throttle body and fuel rail gubbins in the shed that can be in the post tomorrow if it's any use, postage cost only !
I have spares here for testing purposes but, if I end up giving them to Steve, can I take you up on that please, as I will need them for my project :y
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Right here we go this is from start with codes cleared until dash light starts flashing 120 mins
Knock sensor is always inactive and voltage is Nil on both banks
P0161 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Open (Bank 2 Sensor 2) is there instantly..then the codes for the 1,3,5, cylinders..
This is the best way i could get all this info on screen :-[
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/9%20to%2079y-horz.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/80%20to150%20horz.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/150%20to%20220%20horz.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/220%20to%20290%20horz.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/290%20to%20360%20horz.jpg)
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So it purrs at 2000 rpm but 1/3/5 misfire dreadfully at idle?
1/3/5 are the same side as the vacuum connection for the brake servo - is there an uncontrolled air leak ? (nut loose / pipe cracked / servo faulty)
If there is air entering through the vacuum connection then the ECU would close the throttles to control the idle speed which would make 2/4/6 run rich and 1/3/5 run lean (until it tried to run closed loop using the lambdas))
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So it purrs at 2000 rpm but 1/3/5 misfire dreadfully at idle?
1/3/5 are the same side as the vacuum connection for the brake servo - is there an uncontrolled air leak ? (nut loose / pipe cracked / servo faulty)
If there is air entering through the vacuum connection then the ECU would close the throttles to control the idle speed which would make 2/4/6 run rich and 1/3/5 run lean (until it tried to run closed loop using the lambdas))
That pipe from servo goes in the other side with the 19mm/17mm nuts :-\ :-\
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So it purrs at 2000 rpm but 1/3/5 misfire dreadfully at idle?
1/3/5 are the same side as the vacuum connection for the brake servo - is there an uncontrolled air leak ? (nut loose / pipe cracked / servo faulty)
If there is air entering through the vacuum connection then the ECU would close the throttles to control the idle speed which would make 2/4/6 run rich and 1/3/5 run lean (until it tried to run closed loop using the lambdas))
That pipe from servo goes in the other side with the 19mm/17mm nuts :-\ :-\
OK - I may have got my banks muddled :-[ so 1/3/5 will run rich and 2/4/6 run lean. Either way the drivers side will get starved of air and the passenger side will get unmetered air via the vacuum hose. (if that is the problem)
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Yup :y with it missing you might not hear the leak :-\
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Yup :y with it missing you might not hear the leak :-\
And you would have a rock hard brake pedal.. :y
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Yup :y with it missing you might not hear the leak :-\
And you would have a rock hard brake pedal.. :y
Don't bank on it... With the engine running and that pipe vaguely attached, the air pressure in the servo will be lower than atmosphere so partial vacuum will offer some assistance :y
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So it purrs at 2000 rpm but 1/3/5 misfire dreadfully at idle?
1/3/5 are the same side as the vacuum connection for the brake servo - is there an uncontrolled air leak ? (nut loose / pipe cracked / servo faulty)
If there is air entering through the vacuum connection then the ECU would close the throttles to control the idle speed which would make 2/4/6 run rich and 1/3/5 run lean (until it tried to run closed loop using the lambdas))
That pipe from servo goes in the other side with the 19mm/17mm nuts :-\ :-\
OK - I may have got my banks muddled :-[ so 1/3/5 will run rich and 2/4/6 run lean. Either way the drivers side will get starved of air and the passenger side will get unmetered air via the vacuum hose. (if that is the problem)
Deffo gonna have a look around at that area to see if a small split or something... It was dark when we finished ..its got to be something minor like that i think :y
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Just upload a CSV / Excel file somewhere with all the readings in.. assuming you're using the reader that shall remain nameless.(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26795734/Smilies/allrun.gif)
I took 12 live data readings owing to fault codes coming so stopped to reset codes...These reading start from cold and go until tha fans kick in...
Like you say,They are CSV files and you need Excel or star office to read them
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/take1.csv
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The open circuit lambda is likely to be because I left one unplugged after testing stuff, no concern there
When are you free for me to come and play in daylight? :y
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The open circuit lambda is likely to be because I left one unplugged after testing stuff, no concern there
When are you free for me to come and play in daylight? :y
i thought that ;D
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The open circuit lambda is likely to be because I left one unplugged after testing stuff, no concern there
When are you free for me to come and play in daylight? :y
i thought that ;D
It was a frigging long day :y
Are you about either tomorrow or Monday for more playtime? :y
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The open circuit lambda is likely to be because I left one unplugged after testing stuff, no concern there
When are you free for me to come and play in daylight? :y
i thought that ;D
It was a frigging long day :y
Are you about either tomorrow or Monday for more playtime? :y
Why didnt you say ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Its not ignition. Its not Fuel.. Its a vac problem i think.... Thats all it can be... :-\
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Hope so, but then again, it was just a misfire... ::)
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The brake servo vacuum pipe does come from bank 1/3/5. Think about how the intake manifold ports cross over. ;)
Would be worth blanking it off just in case..
Live data shows quite a high MAF reading, even given the cold engine. I suppose that might not be surprising if it's trying to sustain an idle on 3 cylinders. Look what happens to Bank 2 ST fuel trim before it gives up and opens the loop, too. :-\
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The brake servo vacuum pipe does come from bank 1/3/5. Think about how the intake manifold ports cross over. ;)
Would be worth blanking it off just in case..
Live data shows quite a high MAF reading, even given the cold engine. I suppose that might not be surprising if it's trying to sustain an idle on 3 cylinders. Look what happens to Bank 2 ST fuel trim before it gives up and opens the loop, too. :-\
Thats the area im thinking too..... Tomo Gonna blank the servo bung...(but with that you move over to faulty servo thoughts) And have a good check of the vac pipes with a suckarometer For a split.
Have a spare MAF but once james unplugged the one fitted it never made much change it just went to the ECU default.
PS: thanks for your input :y
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The brake servo vacuum pipe does come from bank 1/3/5. Think about how the intake manifold ports cross over. ;)
Would be worth blanking it off just in case..
Live data shows quite a high MAF reading, even given the cold engine. I suppose that might not be surprising if it's trying to sustain an idle on 3 cylinders. Look what happens to Bank 2 ST fuel trim before it gives up and opens the loop, too. :-\
Yes indeed it shoots upwards!
This would tie in with the theory of it running rich, and the other bank lean, no?
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The brake servo vacuum pipe does come from bank 1/3/5. Think about how the intake manifold ports cross over. ;)
Would be worth blanking it off just in case..
Live data shows quite a high MAF reading, even given the cold engine. I suppose that might not be surprising if it's trying to sustain an idle on 3 cylinders. Look what happens to Bank 2 ST fuel trim before it gives up and opens the loop, too. :-\
Thats the area im thinking too..... Tomo Gonna blank the servo bung...(but with that you move over to faulty servo thoughts) And have a good check of the vac pipes with a suckarometer For a split.
Have a spare MAF but once james unplugged the one fitted it never made much change it just went to the ECU default.
PS: thanks for your input :y
Do you want to leave it until I get there? We can look together in daylight with clear heads :y
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I can head up late morning ish :y
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ok james and yes MAF reading are a little up from before :y
Top is before we played around.... Bottom is now . :y
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/maf.jpg)
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14Kg/h is right on the money for a warm engine. It will be higher when in cold start, of course.
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14Kg/h is right on the money for a warm engine. It will be higher when in cold start, of course.
And it can be seen from the bottom pic that our MAF reading is too high at the Moment :-\
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14Kg/h is right on the money for a warm engine. It will be higher when in cold start, of course.
And it can be seen from the bottom pic that our MAF reading is too high at the Moment :-\
So what changed between the two readings?
If there is a serious misfire, I'd expect it to be a little high, as said.
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Check some basics, are you getting fuel (e.g. wet plugs and remember that the injector connector has a separate pin for the pos supply to each bank.....and I have seen them break at the multiplug) and are you getting spark.
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The brake servo vacuum pipe does come from bank 1/3/5. Think about how the intake manifold ports cross over. ;)
Would be worth blanking it off just in case..
Live data shows quite a high MAF reading, even given the cold engine. I suppose that might not be surprising if it's trying to sustain an idle on 3 cylinders. Look what happens to Bank 2 ST fuel trim before it gives up and opens the loop, too. :-\
At idle the rear multiram is supposed to be open. :y
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The brake servo vacuum pipe does come from bank 1/3/5. Think about how the intake manifold ports cross over. ;)
Would be worth blanking it off just in case..
Live data shows quite a high MAF reading, even given the cold engine. I suppose that might not be surprising if it's trying to sustain an idle on 3 cylinders. Look what happens to Bank 2 ST fuel trim before it gives up and opens the loop, too. :-\
At idle the rear multiram is supposed to be open. :y
Something else to check?
Does it spring open or spring closed?
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The brake servo vacuum pipe does come from bank 1/3/5. Think about how the intake manifold ports cross over. ;)
Would be worth blanking it off just in case..
Live data shows quite a high MAF reading, even given the cold engine. I suppose that might not be surprising if it's trying to sustain an idle on 3 cylinders. Look what happens to Bank 2 ST fuel trim before it gives up and opens the loop, too. :-\
At idle the rear multiram is supposed to be open. :y
Something else to check?
Does it spring open or spring closed?
Not sure about anything any more ;D ;D ;D Think best for me to leave it for james to update this thread. :y
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This may sound stupid. ;D ;D ;D But does the ECU always tell the truth with the 300 codes..Meaning in identifying cylinder.
For example it says pots 1,3& 5 But really it is only pots 1 & 5. at fault... Just curious. :-\
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This may sound stupid. ;D ;D ;D But does the ECU always tell the truth with the 300 codes..Meaning in identifying cylinder.
For example it says pots 1,3& 5 But really it is only pots 1 & 5. at fault... Just curious. :-\
I will be posting an updatd on here later today :y
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OK so an update on this. Unfortunately Friday did not go so well - here is what happened
Firstly we tried all of the following
1) Ran engine with the plenum blocked at the point the main vac pipe connects.
2) Replaced inlet manifold and injector rail with known good item
3) Also replaced DBW throttle bodies with a proven item
4) Whilst inlet removed, all seals, seating etc checked to ensure there was no major air leaks - all was fitted correctly
5) Cam timing was checked - the timing was spot on, and all cams were fitted in the correct keyways
6) 1-3-5 coil pack swapped out - no difference
7) Crank sensor replaced with brand new item
8 ) Known good original cam sensor fitted
9) known good replacement engine ECU fitted
10) new spark plugs fitted to 1-3-5
11) Compression test on 1-3-5. Compression was unusually high, much more so than before. Reading 220psi on all cyls. Although this test was with a cold engine - so may be normal?
The engine was tried after all of the above, and each time the result was exactly the same. running absolutely perfectly at 2,000 rpm or above, (easily on all six) but when idling - misfiring / idling roughly, with 1-3-5 misfire codes getting logged.
I tried a little experiment with the lambda sensors which I think was interesting. Firstly I unplugged them all, cleared the codes to reset, and idled the engine. It was idling for ages, and DID NOT log a misfire code with the lambdas unplugged. It was still running rough though, not idling great with an intermittent misfire type feel.
after that, I plugged in JUST Bank 1, Sensor 1, and ran the engine. Likewise, the misfire codes did not materialise.
I then plugged in JUST bank 2, sensor 1, and ran it again. It then gave me the misfire codes for 1-3-5 bank, as it was doing before.
So. WHY when the lambda for the bank reported the misfire is plugged in, it doesn't throw the codes, but the lambda for the other bank is plugged in, it does? That makes no sense at all
Also - at idle, the lambda on bank 1, is cycling normally, between 20-700mv, but the lambda on bank 2 is sat still at around 20mv, and does not start cycling until you hold it at higher revs. This should surely be the other way around, if bank 1 is the problem bank?
At this point we recalled the camshafts had come out of the 1-3-5 bank during the 2-4-6 head removal, to allow us to clean the engine and inspect the 2-4-6 bores. I handed the cams to steve to mark as Inlet and Exhaust during this process, but we thought we'd better check the correct ones had been fitted - so the cam cover came off. Low and behold, stupidly, we had got the 1-3-5 cams the wrong way round. (I'm really annoyed at myself but that's another story). Basically the G cam was on the inlet, and the J cam was on the exhaust side, whereas it should be vice-versa.
I began to think this could be the only explanation - thinking perhaps with the valve durations being different due to the wrong cam profiles, the engine wasn't breathing properly on bank 1. So we stripped the thing down again and changed the camshafts over to the correct positions.
I honestly thought we'd be onto a winner having found something wrong.
Turned the key in excitement afterwards thinking we'd cracked it - but no such luck. It started, but almost refused to idle at all. Gave it some revs, and as it's revved, it is giving an intermittent POP (a very loud one!) noise which appears to be coming from the inlet system. It immediately logs misfire codes for 1-3-5 again.
The engine was allowed to idle at this point, and died. It refused to start again, and was showing classic flooding signs. With throttle at WOT and cranking, it would try to start but wouldn't catch. I removed fuse 18 to stop it getting fuel, and cranked at WOT - it appeared to run, roughly, for a few seconds on whatever fuel was left in the system. I put fuse 18 back in, and it then started (only at WOT) but wouldn't idle for more than a few seconds.
Again, timing spot on, double checked by us both. Inlet system came out AGAIN to check for air leaks etc - nothing at all.
I have to admit, I'm struggling for ideas here!! As EVERYTHING else has been checked or swapped out, aside of the 1-3-5 head (which has good compression so should be OK, and was fine before) - I don't actually know what else to try or check?
Any ideas, on this very very strange problem, would be appreciated. We are toying with the idea of having this car recovered to me, to work on at leisure at home, as I've racked up 600 miles and 36 hours work, and still haven't managed to fix this one!! :(
I am not properly charging for this work, as per my original promise, but it's still costing steve a little in fuel, and I'd like to keep this cost down if possible, so want to fix it once and for all in the next visit
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I forget but have you tried swapping out or swapping around the O2 sensors at all?
Pegged at 20mv means either the sensor is goosed or there's an enormous air leak causing one bank to peg lean, so lean that the ECU can't compensate for it..
Although it is odd that it affects the opposite bank (unless B2 & B1 are back to front with respect to the O2 sensors for some reason) :/
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To add, I have worded something incorrectly above. When the cams were found to be the wrong way around, J was in the inlet, and G was in the exhaust...
The more I think about this though, the cam profiles are roughly the same - indeed I think 2.5 uses 4 x A cams - so I think in the scheme of things, this might be a red herring!
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To add, I have worded something incorrectly above. When the cams were found to be the wrong way around, J was in the inlet, and G was in the exhaust...
The more I think about this though, the cam profiles are roughly the same - indeed I think 2.5 uses 4 x A cams - so I think in the scheme of things, this might be a red herring!
if they where mixed on both heads then car will run with out issues , but if you have mixed cams on one head then you will get uneven run on idle other then that will run as should
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My feeling is that you've got some issue causing a minor misfire, and that's causing a false reading from one of the lambda sensors to take the fuelling way out of kilter - hence it runs better without them plugged in but not perfectly.
Could just be a failed lambda sensor though. Can they be removed or are they seized? Try swapping front and rear sensors on each bank (cables will be tight but they do reach). That might eliminate a faulty front sensor.
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My feeling is that you've got some issue causing a minor misfire, and that's causing a false reading from one of the lambda sensors to take the fuelling way out of kilter - hence it runs better without them plugged in but not perfectly.
Could just be a failed lambda sensor though. Can they be removed or are they seized? Try swapping front and rear sensors on each bank (cables will be tight but they do reach). That might eliminate a faulty front sensor.
Hi Kevin,
I did actually do this, eg, swap lambda one for lambda 2 on each bank, so effectively the rear lambdas were being used as the main ones, just as a test.
The results were exactly the same.
Thing is. Even if it is a minor misfire. What could possibly be causing it? Literally everything I can think of, has been tried :-\
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My next thought is can anything be gained here from this going on a Tech II and not my so called Naff code reader :-\ :-\
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My next thought is can anything be gained here from this going on a Tech II and not my so called Naff code reader :-\ :-\
Afraid not, is my gut feeling.
The live data readouts will be the same on either device. Tech2 obviously much better for programming etc, but all the live data we need can be accessed from yours...
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The part i dont understand is we had the car running on all 6 with misfires on bank 1 on tickover. That was with the 2 cams G & J in the wrong order...
So now we have swapped them round into there proper place and then the car dont wanna run on that bank at all, And only runs on 3.
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The part i dont understand is we had the car running on all 6 with misfires on bank 1 on tickover. That was with the 2 cams G & J in the wrong order...
So now we have swapped them round into there proper place and then the car dont wanna run on that bank at all, And only runs on 3.
Just to make sure we haven't been complete (insert male body parts here) - we need to check cams on the 2-4-6 bank are right too
:y
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The part i dont understand is we had the car running on all 6 with misfires on bank 1 on tickover. That was with the 2 cams G & J in the wrong order...
So now we have swapped them round into there proper place and then the car dont wanna run on that bank at all, And only runs on 3.
Just to make sure we haven't been complete (insert male body parts here) - we need to check cams on the 2-4-6 bank are right too
:y
Never thought of that one :-[
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Right well I am going to say it....diagnose it, don't go down the road of willy nilly part changes.
Every time you change something to 'try it' you add further risks and unknowns into the setup :y
Start with the there basics, have you got
a) Spark on all 6 cylinders
b) Fuel to all six cylinders
c) Compression on all six cylinders.
If the answer to the above is yes then there is very little else that could cause a major issue.
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Right well I am going to say it....diagnose it, don't go down the road of willy nilly part changes.
Every time you change something to 'try it' you add further risks and unknowns into the setup :y
Start with the there basics, have you got
a) Spark on all 6 cylinders
b) Fuel to all six cylinders
c) Compression on all six cylinders.
If the answer to the above is yes then there is very little else that could cause a major issue.
I take no offence at you saying it, because this is the approach I've always tried to adopt (having learnt it from yourself :y ), and is why I was reluctant to change the engine loom, when it was fine before it's original Cambelt change :y
The answers to the above questions, are:
a) Yes
b) Yes
c) Yes
:y
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Bear in mind that if it has been fuelling very rich, it may have fouled the plugs. This is especially true any time you keep starting an Omega to try things. The cold start enrichment eventually starts fouling plugs and you end up chasing a misfire that isn't your primary problem.
We ended up in this trap when the silver bullet developed a couple of noisy tappets following its' LPG conversion. The misfire in addition to the tapping noise convinced us that we'd done something more serious, thus we didn't want to run it for long, but the fact is that once you've started it a few times, you will have fouled the plugs. Vicious circle.
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I take no offence at you saying it, because this is the approach I've always tried to adopt (having learnt it from yourself :y ), and is why I was reluctant to change the engine loom, when it was fine before it's original Cambelt change :y
The answers to the above questions, are:
a) Yes
b) Yes
c) Yes
:y
So, in the case of ignition, are you getting a good enough spark to light the fuel e.g. it will clear a 35mm plus gap at atmospheric pressures?
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I take no offence at you saying it, because this is the approach I've always tried to adopt (having learnt it from yourself :y ), and is why I was reluctant to change the engine loom, when it was fine before it's original Cambelt change :y
The answers to the above questions, are:
a) Yes
b) Yes
c) Yes
:y
So, in the case of ignition, are you getting a good enough spark to light the fuel e.g. it will clear a 35mm plus gap at atmospheric pressures?
We had coil pack out fitted plugs into it and earthed the plugs thread and then cranked the engine over..
I think james may agree in saying the spark we saw,I dont think it could clear 35 mm :-\
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Ok, so a big issue there then, at atmospheric pressures it should clear a good 35mm.....if they look weak using your test then you have NO hope under compression.
A few quick easy tests to do are
1) With the engine running measure the voltage between the 0V connection on the coil pack and the battery neg
2) With the engine running measure the voltage between the 12V connection on the coil pack and the battery pos
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Ok, so a big issue there then, at atmospheric pressures it should clear a good 35mm.....if they look weak using your test then you have NO hope under compression.
A few quick easy tests to do are
1) With the engine running measure the voltage between the 0V connection on the coil pack and the battery neg
2) With the engine running measure the voltage between the 12V connection on the coil pack and the battery pos
James did do this before we swapped the cams G&J back and had good reading. However Since then is when this new problem came so i am unable to do this on my own owing to cannot no longer get engine to tickover
So i can only do it at the moment with ignition on.
1) 11.97v
2) 11.87v
Across batt 12.2v
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Scrap readings above. Got a gas pedal helper
Engine running @ 2000rpm
1) 14.4V
2) 14.3V
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I have to be honest I thought the spark looked a little weak on both banks.. And at one point I thought 1 3 5 was only sparking intermittently... But couldn't replicate that
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Scrap readings above. Got a gas pedal helper
Engine running @ 2000rpm
1) 14.4V
2) 14.3V
With these readings it makes it look like a coil pack issue or plugs ..Well today plugs have been changed.And i have two other known good coil packs here to try (one of them is yours james) And its the same result.
When plugs are removed they are soaked in fuel. And with a torch down bores i can see soaked in fuel
When 1,3,5 coil pack is unplugged the car runs better. No popping etc No more being held back.
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Interesting....so with the 1-3-5 coil pack disconnected then there is no popping etc?
The voltage readings prove there is no volt drop in the supply and return cabling.
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Interesting....so with the 1-3-5 coil pack disconnected then there is no popping etc?
The voltage readings prove there is no volt drop in the supply and return cabling.
That is correct and it will sort of then tickover on one bank..
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Which hints towards the coil pack being fired on the wrong stroke for some reason.
So other than the cylinder head, nothing else has been changed?
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Which hints towards the coil pack being fired on the wrong stroke for some reason.
So other than the cylinder head, nothing else has been changed?
On this bank the cams have been out twice...
The first time so we could turn the pistons over to have a good look at the bores on bank 2
And then out again owing to us getting the G & J cams the wrong way round on this bank
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Ok, and the cam sprockets were fitted correctly e.g. exhaust aligned to notch 1 and inlet to notch 2?
(note: just checking the obvious :y)
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Ok, and the cam sprockets were fitted correctly e.g. exhaust aligned to notch 1 and inlet to notch 2?
(note: just checking the obvious :y)
Yep, the 1-3-5 exhaust cam was fitted into keyway marked '1' - and the inlet cam into the one marked "2' - I'm pretty sure I got steve to check, before I tightened them, just for absolute certainty....
I'm starting to think we need to check this again, though...
I don't suppose something daft like the cam sprocket dowel could have come adrift :-\ The cam was held using the hex part at the end, and the pulley bolts correctly tightened... :-\
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I am just working through the basics of what could cause the issue. :y
On the 1-3-5 bank, the key way slots are 180 degrees between each so no valve damage but the spark will be firing on the wrong stroke.
I assume no paper towels have been left in the inlet or similar? :y
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I am just working through the basics of what could cause the issue. :y
On the 1-3-5 bank, the key way slots are 180 degrees between each so no valve damage but the spark will be firing on the wrong stroke.
I assume no paper towels have been left in the inlet or similar? :y
No chance
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I am just working through the basics of what could cause the issue. :y
On the 1-3-5 bank, the key way slots are 180 degrees between each so no valve damage but the spark will be firing on the wrong stroke.
I assume no paper towels have been left in the inlet or similar? :y
The bottom line is, when the 1-3-5 cams were in the wrong place, it ran OK at idle, albeit a bit lumpy, it would run unassisted, and then eventually put the misfire codes up for that bank.
Since the cams were swapped into the right place, the engine immediately ran like a sack of poo with immediate misfire codes on that bank
Although we are confident on the pulley fitment and timing etc, I can't help thinking we need to go over this again, and inspect the camshafts/lifters etc very closely...
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Considering that you have good compression and the lifters are quiet would suggest that the valves are ok.
Its confirmed that the spark is (possibly) good and fuel is there, so there must be a more fundamental reason why the engine is not firing on that compression cycle. :y
There is some popping and banging when the ignition system is connected hinting that something is burning all be it at the wrong time.
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Considering that you have good compression and the lifters are quiet would suggest that the valves are ok.
Its confirmed that the spark is (possibly) good and fuel is there, so there must be a more fundamental reason why the engine is not firing on that compression cycle. :y
There is some popping and banging when the ignition system is connected hinting that something is burning all be it at the wrong time.
My gut feeling is that we whip the belt off and check the camshaft sprocket alignment to be absolutely certain of this, even if to rule it out :-[
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It might be easy enough to check just by removing the cam cover.
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Steve I might try and get up to you tomorrow, I won't be able to do a late one though as I'm working earlies the next day... :y
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Do you want me to strip down get the cam cover off get engine at TDC and get camera out :-\
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Pop the cam cover off and set to TDC with cam timing marks aligned as per belt fit (pop the bolts out the top of the timing cover so you can ease it back to see), observe the cam lobe positions on no1 cylinder (they should both be pointing upwards).
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Do you want me to strip down get the cam cover off get engine at TDC and get camera out :-\
You would find TDC roughly by eye, when no1 is at the top of it's stroke and the cut out on the crank sprocket is at 6 o clock... but if you're not confident, I'll do it for you..
I'm just aware that after tomorrow, I'm working for about ten days straight, so wouldn't get up to you until around 06 April, unless I booked a day off..
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Do you want me to strip down get the cam cover off get engine at TDC and get camera out :-\
You would find TDC roughly by eye, when no1 is at the top of it's stroke and the cut out on the crank sprocket is at 6 o clock... but if you're not confident, I'll do it for you..
I'm just aware that after tomorrow, I'm working for about ten days straight, so wouldn't get up to you until around 06 April, unless I booked a day off..
Timing mark at 2ish on the pulley/cam belt cover :y
But cam timing marks need to align with rear cover to :y
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Do you want me to strip down get the cam cover off get engine at TDC and get camera out :-\
You would find TDC roughly by eye, when no1 is at the top of it's stroke and the cut out on the crank sprocket is at 6 o clock... but if you're not confident, I'll do it for you..
I'm just aware that after tomorrow, I'm working for about ten days straight, so wouldn't get up to you until around 06 April, unless I booked a day off..
Timing mark at 2ish on the pulley/cam belt cover :y
Sorry.... I was referring to the crank sprocket (the one the belt runs on) being at 6pm at TDC, rather than the outer pulley which drives the aux belt - as you rightfully say this would be at 2pm :y
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With pulley on you wont be able to see the sprocket :y
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With pulley on you wont be able to see the sprocket :y
Yeah, I'll shut up ;D I was imagining it with the covers off :-[
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Just plenium off then not injection rail :-\
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Just plenium off then not injection rail :-\
You'll need to take the inlet manifold out too - only 6 T45 bolts :y
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how do i get it out its so tight in there :-\
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how do i get it out its so tight in there :-\
Lift it a 1/4", pull it forward 1/2" then tilt towards left hand wing and lift straight up :y
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Proper nailbiter this one! I'd have torched the bloody thing days ago ;D Good on you for persevering
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Proper nailbiter this one! I'd have torched the bloody thing days ago ;D Good on you for persevering
We will get there :y
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Right here is pics... I Am 360 Out on the crank..Struggled Got Gammy Wrists....But if this no good can get out there tomo...It was getting dark Too. :y First one is the 2 oclock mark on aux crank pulley
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/cams1.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/cams2...JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/cams3.JPG)
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Did you compress the lifters before they went back in?
I didn't ask earlier because you were reporting good compression pressures.
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Did you compress the lifters before they went back in?
I didn't ask earlier because you were reporting good compression pressures.
They never came out
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Did you compress the lifters before they went back in?
I didn't ask earlier because you were reporting good compression pressures.
They never came out
OK - maybe they should come out now they have pumped themselves up to take up the clearances on the 'wrong' cams :-\
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Right here is pics... I Am 360 Out on the crank..Struggled Got Gammy Wrists....But if this no good can get out there tomo...It was getting dark Too. :y First one is the 2 oclock mark on aux crank pulley
That doesn't look right to me. TDC on the crank, and a cam timing mark lined up, yet the intake on No. 1 is open. :-\
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Right here is pics... I Am 360 Out on the crank..Struggled Got Gammy Wrists....But if this no good can get out there tomo...It was getting dark Too. :y First one is the 2 oclock mark on aux crank pulley
That doesn't look right to me. TDC on the crank, and a cam timing mark lined up, yet the intake on No. 1 is open. :-\
Is the crank mark correct 2 oclock on the aux belt pulley
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Right here is pics... I Am 360 Out on the crank..Struggled Got Gammy Wrists....But if this no good can get out there tomo...It was getting dark Too. :y First one is the 2 oclock mark on aux crank pulley
That doesn't look right to me. TDC on the crank, and a cam timing mark lined up, yet the intake on No. 1 is open. :-\
Is the crank mark correct 2 oclock on the aux belt pulley
We need to confirm no1 is at tdc :y
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Right here is pics... I Am 360 Out on the crank..Struggled Got Gammy Wrists....But if this no good can get out there tomo...It was getting dark Too. :y First one is the 2 oclock mark on aux crank pulley
That doesn't look right to me. TDC on the crank, and a cam timing mark lined up, yet the intake on No. 1 is open. :-\
Is the crank mark correct 2 oclock on the aux belt pulley
We need to confirm no1 is at tdc :y
I agree is that the correct mark on the aux pulley :-\
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Yes but as you say it can be 360 out, crank rotates twice for each cam rotation from memory? :y
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Yes but as you say it can be 360 out, crank rotates twice for each cam rotation from memory? :y
It is james.. i was on a 3/8 snap on ratchet trying to turn the bleeding thing over by Hand.
Inlet is about to open to let fuel in...But im not happy with the crank mark..
In daylight will get aux belt off and do the job proper Along with timing belt cover :y
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Yes but as you say it can be 360 out, crank rotates twice for each cam rotation from memory? :y
You are right that a four stroke crank turns twice for each turn of the cams but - The cams define whether the crank is on a firing stroke or not so no - you can't get it 360 degrees out.
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Proper nailbiter this one! I'd have torched the bloody thing days ago ;D Good on you for persevering
Its gone too far to walk away..... I cannot except that Mechanical/electronics can beat the human brain... The show goes on. :y
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If the pulley mark is at 2pm, and the cam marks aligned with the rear cover, I don't think you're 360 out?
We'll wait for Mr DTMs opinion on your pics and the position of the cam lobes, if it looks like we've ballsed up on that bank I will pop back to to help put it right :y
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I have done so many v6 top end builds, installing the cams and sprockets correctly and setting the timing is second nature. I'll be amazed if it's wrong :(
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Right here is pics... I Am 360 Out on the crank..Struggled Got Gammy Wrists....But if this no good can get out there tomo...It was getting dark Too. :y First one is the 2 oclock mark on aux crank pulley
That doesn't look right to me. TDC on the crank, and a cam timing mark lined up, yet the intake on No. 1 is open. :-\
Yep surely if no1 is on it's compression stroke, you 'd expect the lobes all to face up, as the valves would need to be closed?
Also if the crank mark and cam marks line up, it must be at tdc, Steve can't be 360deg out? :-/
If we are confident something is definitely amiss here I will pop up with the cam locking kit to set it right.
If I have made a mistake here I'm likely to go very hard on myself. You know what they say about complacency and assumptions :(
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I would say that the inlet cam is on the wrong mark. :y
It matters not the accuracy of TDC on the crank, for this little test, near enough is good enough.
And as for timing on the cams, again not overly important.
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Yep, with number 1 on TDC, or even near it, you are either at the end of the compression stroke (both valves closed, and will be for well over 90 degrees of crank rotation either side of TDC) or the end of the exhaust stroke (exhaust valve starting to close, inlet valve starting to open).
That picture doesn't fit either scenario.
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Yep, with number 1 on TDC, or even near it, you are either at the end of the compression stroke (both valves closed, and will be for well over 90 degrees of crank rotation either side of TDC) or the end of the exhaust stroke (exhaust valve starting to close, inlet valve starting to open).
That picture doesn't fit either scenario.
Agreed :y
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Well ive said it once so i will say it again. A Big Big thanks to All who Have gave input on this one.especially James who is the one doing all the running around.Im very Grateful And that is what makes this forum so great ..Its been a long road. :y
James turned up here this morning at the crack of dawn To get his hands on the car And after a few hours work,Car was started up.
Now its running on all six And fault codes have all gone ;D ;D ;D
Just so glad to see the back of this problem :y
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/the%20end.jpg)
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And the route cause was?
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And the route cause was?
You know dam well what it was ;D ;D ;D
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For the benefit of those of us without ESP? :P
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The way i see it is we are only human and we all make mistakes. But its how you deal with those mistakes What matters, And james came here today at the crack of dawn to sort it...
The inlet cam on bank one was in the wrong slot.No damage done. :y
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I hope you demanded a full refund.. :P ;)
(I am kidding, before anyone lynches me)
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So inlet cam sprocket was fitted on No1 notch and not No2?
Yep, mistakes happen, particularly after a long hard day when you are tired. The thread hopefully has also been of use to those wanting to see a methodical approach to fault finding :y
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So inlet cam sprocket was fitted on No1 notch and not No2?
Yep, mistakes happen, particularly after a long hard day when you are tired. The thread hopefully has also been of use to those wanting to see a methodical approach to fault finding :y
Yes mark that is what had happened.
And yes i do think tiredness came into a lot on this one, Also along with james not feeling too well..
I have found the whole thing an education.. I would now feel confident doing cam covers on a V6...ive seen it done so many times now. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The resistance in the original loom was going to be my first shout... ::)
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The resistance in the original loom was going to be my first shout... ::)
Ha ha, but proven not to be as per the test yesterday on volt drop :y
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The resistance in the original loom was going to be my first shout... ::)
Ha ha, but proven not to be as per the test yesterday on volt drop :y
It had a new loom too :y
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The resistance in the original loom was going to be my first shout... ::)
Ha ha, but proven not to be as per the test yesterday on volt drop :y
It had a new loom too :y
So the new loom tested good... Which is a relief ;D
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The resistance in the original loom was going to be my first shout... ::)
Ha ha, but proven not to be as per the test yesterday on volt drop :y
It had a new loom too :y
So the new loom tested good... Which is a relief ;D
There was nothing wrong with the old one ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Which was potentially a silly thing to do .....more unknowns and a major change which could have introduced a whole host of additional red herrings and issues.....hence why I asked what else had been done :y
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OK well firstly, it goes without saying, I am genuinely, enormously embarrassed :-[ I have been working intimately on these V6 lumps for around 8 years, and am very aware of camshaft identifications, cap rotations, and how the sprockets align to the keyways on each bank. The fact that I somehow fitted the 1-3-5 inlet cam onto the number 1 keyway is absolutely beyond belief, I am absolutely gutted, and can only apologise :( I guess he who never made a mistake.. :-\
Anyway, so - the new 1-3-5 misfire, introduced after the work I did replacing the 2-4-6 head, was basically a silly mistake by me, which is now sorted, and that misfire has gone.
Back to the original problem - The original complaint (the reason I went to look at the car in the first place) was a misfire on the 2-4-6 bank immediately following Cambelt / servicing work. Low compression was found on that bank, and damage to the piston crowns/valve seat etc which is why I changed the head.
This problem is now sorted, with good compressions, with a new head in place, and the 2-4-6 misfire has gone. So the work we did by changing the 246 head, aside of the hiccup/delay, has fixed the original complaint.
I Guess we'll never know, but I am intrigued as to why it was fine before the work was done, and immediately afterwards was misfiring on the 2-4-6 bank. There are absolutely no signs of any poor workmanship, and also I Can't think of any possible way that a foreign object could get into each of the three cylinders on that side anyway...
So what was the cause of the initial complaint - the reason this thread was started? I'm just asking for my own learning, as in my mind, it is still a mystery unsolved :-\
I hope you demanded a full refund..
Seeing as this was done on a "bung me whatever you think it's worth" basis, my only expectation was really a few beers, so that would be kinda difficult... but needless to say I am pleased with Steve's generous donation :y :P :y
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Well you could refund the beers ... but I'm not sure he'd want them back once they've been drunk! ;)
At least it's back to full health, even if we might never know what caused the 2-4-6 bank to lunch itself.
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James What did you do with my one and only car key. :-\ Can you check your pockets :y
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The thread hopefully has also been of use to those wanting to see a methodical approach to fault finding :y
One thing really annoying me, is that to begin with, I took this exact approach. The complaint was a misfire, so I checked the real basics - eg compression to start with - and found this to be the cause, then pulling off the head for investigation and later replacement.
At this point, when I reassembled it, I purposely didn't fit the new loom, because I was applying the theory I learnt from Mark some time ago - fix the known faults first - and wanted to run it with the original loom to ascertain that it was the compression causing the problem - and discount a loom issue.
I have to openly admit that, when the 1-3-5 misfire came about, I should have retraced my steps (eg looked at the cams) instead of looking for other causes. Especially as there was never a 1-3-5 misfire there before! It's absolutely no excuse, but I guess I had read so much on here about the loom being suspect that I just kind of went along with it.
That's entirely my fault - I should have gone straight back to basis and checked what was disturbed on 1-3-5 - which was just the two cams, to allow us to rotate the crank to inspect the bores on the other side.
Good learning curve though, won't do that again. I guess all is well that ends well, I have been behind the wheel of this car today and it absolutely flies.. :y
I'm still mystified by what could have caused the damage to all three cylinders and the low compression though.
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James What did you do with my one and only car key. :-\ Can you check your pockets :y
I saw it next to the draining board in your kitchen as I left - on the right :y
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Well you could refund the beers ... but I'm not sure he'd want them back once they've been drunk! ;)
Hmm.... I have quite a few tokens, if I cashed them all in tonight I don't think I'd be able to stand up ;D
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James What did you do with my one and only car key. :-\ Can you check your pockets :y
I saw it next to the draining board in your kitchen as I left - on the right :y
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Had a vision of you in a panic going through your pockets
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James What did you do with my one and only car key. :-\ Can you check your pockets :y
I saw it next to the draining board in your kitchen as I left - on the right :y
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Had a vision of you in a panic going through your pockets
B@stard - for a split second it worked!!! ;D ;D ;D :y
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You got there and that is the most important thing, be thankful it was the 1-3-5 bank out as if it was the 2-4-6 it would be head off again :y
Always remember, if you have fuel, spark and compression, the engine will run IF the cam timing is correct......hence having got to the point of confirming those three it had to be cam timing. :y
A few quick additional checks to prove the loom was ok and then a simple check of the cam lobes and diag done.
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You got there and that is the most important thing, be thankful it was the 1-3-5 bank out as if it was the 2-4-6 it would be head off again :y
Always remember, if you have fuel, spark and compression, the engine will run IF the cam timing is correct......hence having got to the point of confirming those three it had to be cam timing. :y
A few quick additional checks to prove the loom was ok and then a simple check of the cam lobes and diag done.
The thing is, I actually made two (really silly, and avoidable) mistakes during this job.
First one - fitting the G-cam on the exhaust side, and the J cam on the inlet, on the 1-3-5. This is what caused the original 1-3-5 misfire and dodgy idle.
It was after finding this fault, and swapping them over, that I THEN made the mistake of putting the inlet cam in the wrong keyway!!
I was actually thinking on the drive home that perhaps I should have a break from working on Omegas for a bit. But - actually - I have never made any such mistakes before, and have rebuilt lots of these V6 top ends, and whilst I'm at enthusiast level, as opposed to professional level - the reality is I'm probably as competent and equipped as most small garages to do engine work on these.
So, the show goes on, I am going to continue with my own 3.2 project, which has been sat all winter gathering dust. The only thing I'm going to do differently is not put myself under any pressure to get it done quickly, instead just doing a little bit at a time, and enjoying it :y
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You could always blame it on the MILFs ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You could always blame it on the MILFs ;D ;D ;D ;D
To be fair, I was rather distracted by the yummy mummies at school time!!! ::)
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You got there and that is the most important thing, be thankful it was the 1-3-5 bank out as if it was the 2-4-6 it would be head off again :y
Always remember, if you have fuel, spark and compression, the engine will run IF the cam timing is correct......hence having got to the point of confirming those three it had to be cam timing. :y
A few quick additional checks to prove the loom was ok and then a simple check of the cam lobes and diag done.
Why :-\ :-\
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You got there and that is the most important thing, be thankful it was the 1-3-5 bank out as if it was the 2-4-6 it would be head off again :y
Always remember, if you have fuel, spark and compression, the engine will run IF the cam timing is correct......hence having got to the point of confirming those three it had to be cam timing. :y
A few quick additional checks to prove the loom was ok and then a simple check of the cam lobes and diag done.
Why :-\ :-\
Simples, the 1-3-5 bank has the keys pretty much 180 degrees from each other and hence there is no risk of a piston hitting a valve. The 2-4-6 bank has the keys positioned slightly differently so there is more risk of a valve getting bent
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Carry on the good work James you would be sorely missed by many happy fans :y
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Above all, thanks to everyone who contributed to this, especially Mark, Al and kevin.
Snags aside this had been a brilliant experience, Steve and I have become good mates, we have laughed a lot, taken the piss, and have both learnt a thing or two :y
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Glad it all sorted now :y Knew james would sort it ;)