Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: ajsphead on 24 February 2015, 09:48:11
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Looking to lower/stiffen the front of my 2.2Dti. Knowing that MV6 front springs are now nla, will these do as an alternative?
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I'd imagine they'd be great - I'm assuming that you have a source of these? I'd have thought they'd be even harder to get hold of than MV6 springs :)
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So would I and I may have a source, although it could be spurious. Will investigate.
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If you can get some I'd say they'd be great - I know much swapping has gone on with springs between Carlton and Omega (or, if you're German - 'Omega und Omega') and such as Lotus Carlton bits where they have become unavailable/unobtainable, the Omega has provided parts.
Bear in mind there is a weight difference, not sure how much between an evo500 and an Omega. That said a 2.0 GLS and a 3.2 Elite weight about 150kg apart (or some similar figure) and they share springs, so shouldn't be a massive issue. Just imagine the difference between and empty car, compared with a car with 5 fat people, their luggage, plus a full 75 litres of fuel weigh, you get the idea of how much weight the springs take without significant alteration of ride height/handling.
:y
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If you can get some I'd say they'd be great - I know much swapping has gone on with springs between Carlton and Omega (or, if you're German - 'Omega und Omega') and such as Lotus Carlton bits where they have become unavailable/unobtainable, the Omega has provided parts.
Bear in mind there is a weight difference, not sure how much between an evo500 and an Omega. That said a 2.0 GLS and a 3.2 Elite weight about 150kg apart (or some similar figure) and they share springs, so shouldn't be a massive issue. Just imagine the difference between and empty car, compared with a car with 5 fat people, their luggage, plus a full 75 litres of fuel weigh, you get the idea of how much weight the springs take without significant alteration of ride height/handling.
:y
Apologies, but I beg to differ... different models with different engines will have different spring rates... look at the choice of Irmscher springs for the Vectra C as an example... different spring rates front and rear according to engine AND body style.
Iirc, there's about 20% difference between the front axle weights of the lightest models vs the heaviest ones.
Fit too light a spring and use the car for towing/family holidays/hooning around and it will be bouncy, handling like a badly set up Elite on 200k mile shocks, will eat shocks and likely break the springs in short order.
Fit too heavy duty springs, then the ride will be crashy and become prone to throwing the back end out at the fist sign of a damp corner...
Lowering any given car/model requires the correct length and correct weight spring... fitting any old spring from summat vaguely similar is a quick and effective route to a Darwin award :-X
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Yes this is taken into consideration when designing a car. I didn't realise that Vauxhall fitted different springs for each engine size and subsequent noseweight difference. What are these, just out of interest?
Also quoted weight for Opel Omega Evolution500 is 1562kg, just found. So difference between Evo and OP's 2.2DTi is 98kg, or 15stone 6, or my mate Steve.
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In simple terms, whilst your mate Steve doesn't sound much, another four of him and the springs are overloaded by 20%... so technically that five seater effectively becomes a four seater which is an issue.
Proper lowering springs for any given model are simply wound in closer coils to reduce the height... my Irmscher V6 estate springs are shorter than the original ones, but are rated to the same axle/load weights.
By my reckoning, the Omega A 500 3.0 24v weighs the same as an Omega B four pot auto ::)
Original springs are graded by colour spots. Can tell you what were on mine when I get home :y
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What we need is axle loading, spring length and rate (distance between coils and thickness, possibly variable, of the wire), assuming the tails are identical, all of which is hopefully just a phone call away.
What I want to know is the difference between a standard Carlton 3.0 front spring and an Evolution one. I don't know enough about Carltons but all the ones I see seem to be GSis with slightly lowered suspension;. It may be that a standard 3.0 spring will do the job but only if the above are within design tolerances.
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What we need is axle loading, spring length and rate (distance between coils and thickness, possibly variable, of the wire), assuming the tails are identical, all of which is hopefully just a phone call away.
What I want to know is the difference between a standard Carlton 3.0 front spring and an Evolution one. I don't know enough about Carltons but all the ones I see seem to be GSis with slightly lowered suspension;. It may be that a standard 3.0 spring will do the job but only if the above are within design tolerances.
Anyone with an EPC can give you the spring rates :y
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Data as follows
Carlton 3000 springs are length 330mm, diam of wire 14.3mm, total o/d 164mm 5.2 coils
Omega 2.2 DTI are length 360mm diam of wire 14mm total o/d 164mm. 6.2 coils
Wire thickness of both is constant throughout.
So if someone can confirm that the tails are the same then it looks like it's a factory -30mm front set.
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No, no and, er, no...
Axle weights are different.
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Good find ajsphead. If it helps...
http://www.partsbase.org/parts/ope-312224/ (http://www.partsbase.org/parts/ope-312224/)
This is a link to the rubber part which sits between the bottom of the spring and the top of the damper. As you can see, Carlton, Senator and Omega share the same component. I would say this implies that the tail of the spring is identical. :)
So the Omega B springs are 30mm longer/taller, the same 164mm, with one extra turn - so the only difference other than ride height being the Omega A 3000 springs being actually fractionally thicker, at 14.3mm.
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The Monaro uses the same rear wheel bearing as the Omega B estate... Doesn't make the rest of the suspension the same... ::)
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No, no and, er, no...
Axle weights are different.
Can you give me the axle weights please?
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Yours will be in your owners handbook...
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It's the other one I need.
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The Monaro uses the same rear wheel bearing as the Omega B estate... Doesn't make the rest of the suspension the same... ::)
Simply responding to the OP's request that the tails be the same, or not :y
http://www.partsbase.org/parts/ope-312506/ (http://www.partsbase.org/parts/ope-312506/)
ajsphead, the above link shows the top mount/rubber stop to be identical on Sennys, Carltons and Omegas, too. :y
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Omega A Evo 500 front is 1065.945kg, rear is 919.055 based on a gross weight of 1985kgs with 53.7/46.3 front/rear weight distribution. This assumes that the Evo 500 weighs as much as a 3.0 Gsi... Payload is 500kgs...
Think you'll find Omega B has a higher gross weight and higher Payload... Certainly both my estates gross out at around 2450kgs ::)
And DBG I repeat my previous answer...
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Gross weight for a basic DTI saloon is 2145kgs, more with a sunroof/tow bar/Elite... That's two passengers with luggage, or three passengers with no luggage...
Axle weights are on the drivers side B pillar sticker.
Fit those springs and you turn a perfectly good car into a two seater which will handle like a dog, right upto when the springs snap :-X
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Omega A Evo 500 front is 1065.945kg, rear is 919.055 based on a gross weight of 1985kgs with 53.7/46.3 front/rear weight distribution. This assumes that the Evo 500 weighs as much as a 3.0 Gsi... Payload is 500kgs...
Think you'll find Omega B has a higher gross weight and higher Payload... Certainly both my estates gross out at around 2450kgs ::)
And DBG I repeat my previous answer...
Thank you.
I'll look at the parameters for the DTI springs as they cross over into different Omega models with considerable variation in loading. At least I have a parameter for the other ones now.
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Thanks for your help Al. I now have my axle loadings. Front 1055 Rear 1230, GVW 2265 so by any reasonable reckoning it's a solution for a 2.2DTI.
I also know there's been some debate about whether springs are handed or not. There's no consistency from different suppliers, some do and some don't. The GM parts list is not helpful as springs are listed for a set, so I'm going down the handed route - costs the same so I don't see why not.
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Your payload will be 280kgs less so basically no towing, nothing in the boot and only two passengers... Payload being gross weight less kerb weight.
Oh and be sure to tell your insurers otherwise you won't be covered when the inevitable happens ::)
In other words, on your head be it :-X
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Why not just get the right springs, designed for the Omega?
Its desperately easy to cock up the handling, and some, like understeer gradient, are likely to put you in a ditch (admittedly most likely backwards). You're probably looking in the region of a 67% understeer gradient, go to 65% or less, you could be having a trip in an ice cream van, or worse.
This is precisely why we recommend certain springs, designed for the car. We have all sorts of 'tards come on advocating cut down Corsa springs, coilovers (with no idea how to do the maths to set them up) and so on. Sadly, these very people are the type that won't admit they've cocked it up, because they've slammed it and it looks really cool, init?
If you must go ahead, you have to have it in writing that it has suspension modification not approved and not recommend by the manufacturer from your insurance. Actually I'd add that it wasn't even designed for the car. Obviously, you have a responsibility to other road users.
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Excuse my ignorance but..why would anyone want to lower/stiffen the front of an omega 2.2 diseasal? What are you planning to do in it?
If it's more grip at speed you're after, dump the omega and buy something that goes round corners better, there are plenty of candidates. I'm all for improving the appearance and setup of a car, but we are getting into the realms of silk purse and sows ear on this one. :)
Plus, as has been said, it's dangerous to wander so far from the norm.
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Just returning to a previous question posed - Did anyone find out how many springs are supplied for the Omega now? Excluding LSC/MV6 ones, of course.
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Just returning to a previous question posed - Did anyone find out how many springs are supplied for the Omega now? Excluding LSC/MV6 ones, of course.
Can't exclude them as they're factory spring options... ::)
Below is what I recall seeing from previous versions of the EPC and is only a summary of available spring options for the Omega B...
4 types of LSC: 2.2 petrol saloon/estate; V6 petrol saloon/estate. Might be plus diesels in certain markets...
8 types of Standard Non Leveling: four cylinder petrol saloon/estate; v6 petrol saloon/estate, four cylinder diesel saloon/estate; 6 cylinder diesel saloon/estate.
8 types of Self leveling: four cylinder petrol saloon/estate; v6 petrol saloon/estate, four cylinder diesel saloon/estate; 6 cylinder diesel saloon/estate.
16 types of Heavy duty Ambulance/Hearse/Limo/Armoured, 8 Non Leveling, 8 Self Leveling: four cylinder petrol saloon/estate; v6 petrol saloon/estate, four cylinder diesel saloon/estate; 6 cylinder diesel saloon/estate.
16 types of Heavy duty, NOT Ambulance/Hearse/Limo/Armoured, 8 Non Leveling, 8 Self Leveling: four cylinder petrol saloon/estate; v6 petrol saloon/estate, four cylinder diesel saloon/estate; 6 cylinder diesel saloon/estate.
16? types of Rough Road Package, Not Ambulance/Hearse/Limo, 8 Non Leveling, 8 Self Leveling: four cylinder petrol saloon/estate; v6 petrol saloon/estate, four cylinder diesel saloon/estate; 6 cylinder diesel saloon/estate.
HTH :y