Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 25 August 2015, 06:48:20
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I have just bought an early 2004 (53 reg) Fiesta 1.6 Ghia from a lady at work, (who has had it from new) in what appears to be very nice condition. Purchased cheap, because over the last few months it's had a starting issue, she keeps popping kids out ( ;D ) and doesn't want to risk the reliability, so has bought brand new again.
Anyhow. I refuse to believe there is anything seriously wrong with it. It FLIES and drives a treat, a real pleasure to drive. It has the Duratec engine which has bags of "go"!
I've worked out the issue is a "hot start" problem. When you start the car from cold, it almost catches, then doesn't. but the next time you turn the key, it's off - no repeated cranking.
The car will then run all day long without missing a beat. But when you turn it off, having got up to temperature, it WILL NOT start - it just cranks over and over.
If you leave her to cool right down, or even leave for a couple of hours, then it will again start almost straight away.
Any ideas on what this fault could be?
I have read the codes.
They were
P0420 - Catalyst Efficiency below threshold. (I think this is a genuinely tired cat, as there is no pre-cat to my knowledge).
P060C - Internal Control Module Main Processor Performance (????????)
The car never cuts out whilst running. Plugs were a good colour when I Changed them for her a couple of months ago)
I am trying to do a methodical diagnosis rather than play "parts darts" in the hope of fixing it!
I've been looking at Live Data (I've paid for some ODB2 software and ELM327) and I can see that the coolant temperature sensor to the ECU appears to be acting normally - 12 degrees from cold, 80+ when hot, as expected. (The CTS was one of my suspects)
I've considered crank and cam sensors but have no way to prove or disprove them?
I've heard other owners having coil pack issues, but surely it'd give some signs of trouble when running, not just cause a hot start issue?
I've read a lot online about the P060C code meaning the "ECU has failed". Really???? I thought ECU failures were almost unheard of - admittedly though I'm not familiar with Fords? Do Ford ECU's fail often?
I would have thought much more likely it's an unexpected value, or bad connection etc causing this code, there can't be much wrong with the ECU given how damn well it drives once started, and the fact it starts from cold each time? It doesn't add up that the ECU could be to blame here?
On that note, I have checked battery voltage. With a multimeter, it's 12.3 volts at the battery, which increases once engine started. At the ECU, on live data, it only see's 11.3 volts with the ignition on, and car not running. So I wonder if the drop in power between the battery, and the ECU reading it, could be part of the problem.
I can't see any values for MAF readings... I haven't yet removed the great big cover hiding everything under the engine, but I'm led to believe this car doesn't have a MAF??
If I'm honest I don't know what's causing this, but I'd be really grateful for some direction or ideas, please :y :y
Thanks OOF :y
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I should add. Sometimes when cranking (When it's refusing to start when it's hot) The dash flashes "EAC FAIL"
EAC is the electronic throttle control - the DBW system. EAC Fail is a well documented fault on the fiesta - and fords in general, BUT this usually involves limp mode / failures when DRIVING - of which there are none on this fiesta... So I wonder if the "EAC FAIL" when cranking is a red herring, or it's getting confused thinking the throttle system isn't working because the engine should be running?
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What about the throttle pedal switch, I know the fiesta I had would have issues with the throttle and clutch peddles breaking switches and cables???
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Could be a fuse box issue... AFAIK all fords are still prone to it. The drop in voltage to the ecu can't be helping. I think you need to go back to basics... Check all connections and grounds.
Sounds to me like it is likely losing the connection somewhere between the ecu and x component (possibly TPS) for some reason, possibly low voltage. As a thought... See what happens if you try a different battery/jump leads when suffering the hot start issue. Also check the temperature of the battery cables when it's been running a good while.
But I'm a bit out of touch so perhaps someone else will know better!!
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Hi James.
That voltage drop at the ECU could be significant. Might I suggest that as a quick check that you link the ECU as directly as possible to the battery with a jumper wire and see if anything improves?
I have no accurate information regarding ECU current consumption, but not so great as to cause a 1V drop across an interconnect, surely? Therefore perhaps a high resistance join/terminal along the way?
Ron.
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Seen a fair few ECU failures on Fords, sometimes they can be brought round by re-programming, other times not. They use a Siemens Simtec variant from memory.
The usual suspects do repairs on them
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Seen a fair few ECU failures on Fords, sometimes they can be brought round by re-programming, other times not. They use a Siemens Simtec variant from memory.
The usual suspects do repairs on them
Failed to start this morning, cranked but wouldn't go, oddness from dash lights.
Jump leads from the DTi, fired on the button.
I'm suspecting battery trouble!
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A knackered battery, being drained by the starter, would defo cause some wierd and intermittent results in the ECU :y
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140 mile run earlier. Went like stink.
Came home, tried to start from red hot. Cranked but wouldn't fire.
Hooked up to the omega. Started without so much as a cough!! Am seriously wondering about the battery! :)
With the jump leads attached, it doesn't log that odd code either :y
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140 mile run earlier. Went like stink.
Came home, tried to start from red hot. Cranked but wouldn't fire.
Hooked up to the omega. Started without so much as a cough!! Am seriously wondering about the battery! :)
With the jump leads attached, it doesn't log that odd code either :y
Ahem ::) ::)
Could be a fuse box issue... AFAIK all fords are still prone to it. The drop in voltage to the ecu can't be helping. I think you need to go back to basics... Check all connections and grounds.
Sounds to me like it is likely losing the connection somewhere between the ecu and x component (possibly TPS) for some reason, possibly low voltage. As a thought... See what happens if you try a different battery/jump leads when suffering the hot start issue. Also check the temperature of the battery cables when it's been running a good while.
But I'm a bit out of touch so perhaps someone else will know better!!
You need to check the connections and try a good battery then ;)
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140 mile run earlier. Went like stink.
Came home, tried to start from red hot. Cranked but wouldn't fire.
Hooked up to the omega. Started without so much as a cough!! Am seriously wondering about the battery! :)
With the jump leads attached, it doesn't log that odd code either :y
Ahem ::) ::)
Could be a fuse box issue... AFAIK all fords are still prone to it. The drop in voltage to the ecu can't be helping. I think you need to go back to basics... Check all connections and grounds.
Sounds to me like it is likely losing the connection somewhere between the ecu and x component (possibly TPS) for some reason, possibly low voltage. As a thought... See what happens if you try a different battery/jump leads when suffering the hot start issue. Also check the temperature of the battery cables when it's been running a good while.
But I'm a bit out of touch so perhaps someone else will know better!!
You need to check the connections and try a good battery then ;)
If that really cures it, I call that winning!! :y
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140 mile run earlier. Went like stink.
Came home, tried to start from red hot. Cranked but wouldn't fire.
Hooked up to the omega. Started without so much as a cough!! Am seriously wondering about the battery! :)
With the jump leads attached, it doesn't log that odd code either :y
Ahem ::) ::)
Could be a fuse box issue... AFAIK all fords are still prone to it. The drop in voltage to the ecu can't be helping. I think you need to go back to basics... Check all connections and grounds.
Sounds to me like it is likely losing the connection somewhere between the ecu and x component (possibly TPS) for some reason, possibly low voltage. As a thought... See what happens if you try a different battery/jump leads when suffering the hot start issue. Also check the temperature of the battery cables when it's been running a good while.
But I'm a bit out of touch so perhaps someone else will know better!!
You need to check the connections and try a good battery then ;)
If that really cures it, I call that winning!! :y
You need to get to the bottom of why a good battery (apparently) is not providing sufficient power though ;)
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140 mile run earlier. Went like stink.
Came home, tried to start from red hot. Cranked but wouldn't fire.
Hooked up to the omega. Started without so much as a cough!! Am seriously wondering about the battery! :)
With the jump leads attached, it doesn't log that odd code either :y
Ahem ::) ::)
Could be a fuse box issue... AFAIK all fords are still prone to it. The drop in voltage to the ecu can't be helping. I think you need to go back to basics... Check all connections and grounds.
Sounds to me like it is likely losing the connection somewhere between the ecu and x component (possibly TPS) for some reason, possibly low voltage. As a thought... See what happens if you try a different battery/jump leads when suffering the hot start issue. Also check the temperature of the battery cables when it's been running a good while.
But I'm a bit out of touch so perhaps someone else will know better!!
You need to check the connections and try a good battery then ;)
If that really cures it, I call that winning!! :y
You need to get to the bottom of why a good battery (apparently) is not providing sufficient power though ;)
The battery on the car is years old.. I think it might just be tired out? :y
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The battery on the car is years old.. I think it might just be tired out? :y
Do you have access to a proper battery tester?
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The battery on the car is years old.. I think it might just be tired out? :y
Do you have access to a proper battery tester?
Sadly not :(
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The battery on the car is years old.. I think it might just be tired out? :y
Do you have access to a proper battery tester?
Sadly not :(
Local parts place will probably have a drop tester (assuming it's not ECP... Don't know about them)
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Symptoms don't point to a battery fault at all.
Starts fine when cold, wont start when hot....most important question is if the engine turns over ok, if it does, battery is not the issue.
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Symptoms don't point to a battery fault at all.
Starts fine when cold, wont start when hot....most important question is if the engine turns over ok, if it does, battery is not the issue.
I agree. But I have seen them where the ecu is not seeing a charged battery (cranking voltage too low) and causing issues, hence my suggestion of trying jump leads.
I'd still be looking at wiring faults over a battery. I suspect that a new battery won't cure it as with jump leads there is around 14V instead of 12V (obviously), offsetting the drop that is being seen.
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Remember that the ECU internals do not run at 12V, they will be most likely 3V3 supplied by a controlled DC-DC, hence if the volts available is enough to crank, its more than enough for the ECU to run without any issues :y
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Remember that the ECU internals do not run at 12V, they will be most likely 3V3 supplied by a controlled DC-DC, hence if the volts available is enough to crank, its more than enough for the ECU to run without any issues :y
Yes... But it's seeing 11V and having a hissy fit because of it. connect jump leads and it starts fine. Never understood why but seen it before. Last one was a ground fault. Previous was starter internals.
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The battery on the car is years old.. I think it might just be tired out? :y
Do you have access to a proper battery tester?
Sadly not :(
Time you splashed out £25 on one then!
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Remember that the ECU internals do not run at 12V, they will be most likely 3V3 supplied by a controlled DC-DC, hence if the volts available is enough to crank, its more than enough for the ECU to run without any issues :y
Yes... But it's seeing 11V and having a hissy fit because of it. connect jump leads and it starts fine. Never understood why but seen it before. Last one was a ground fault. Previous was starter internals.
It could also be the high fluctuation of voltage in a short period you get with a knackered battery, I could see that affecting the 3.3 or 5v being supplied to the ECU.
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Here are a few thoughts (from BMW experience):
Corroded connector at the ECU caused by water collecting there.
Dodgy ignition / engine management relay.
Sticky starter motor causing a big battery voltage dip.
BMW ECU's (of which some are definitely Bosch) really don't like being given below 12V, some will log under voltage faults others will give spurious fault codes.
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Remember that the ECU internals do not run at 12V, they will be most likely 3V3 supplied by a controlled DC-DC, hence if the volts available is enough to crank, its more than enough for the ECU to run without any issues :y
Yes... But it's seeing 11V and having a hissy fit because of it. connect jump leads and it starts fine. Never understood why but seen it before. Last one was a ground fault. Previous was starter internals.
Sorry, disagree here.
The original symptoms state:
I've worked out the issue is a "hot start" problem. When you start the car from cold, it almost catches, then doesn't. but the next time you turn the key, it's off - no repeated cranking.
and
The car will then run all day long without missing a beat. But when you turn it off, having got up to temperature, it WILL NOT start - it just cranks over and over
Which, given that the worst case for battery terminal volts is after a period being stood and cold start, goes totally against the diagnosis some are stating. This is further backed up by the fact that even if there was a very large initial voltage dip whilst the starter engaged, the ECU would be up and running within 1-2 seconds after this assuming a watchdog event on the processor had occurred (it wont, there is more than enough smoothing caps and holdup in these units to ride through a few milliseconds of extraordinary voltage dip).
Remember all, test and diag is the key to effective diagnosis, leave the willy nilly part changing to the professionals lol :y
So questions have to be
1) Is it turning over ok (removes the battery from the equation)
2) If you continue to crank does it start (further removes the battery from the equation)
My money is still on an electronic component which is struggling when hot, classic symptoms of crank sensor actually and giving a few more volts is resulting in a few more rpm and just getting over the threshold of speed where it works. Sadly this is also the symptoms of a goosed Siemens ECU! Change the battery and you might mask the issue for a few months until the morning temperatures drop again. :y
So much more diag needed
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Remember that the ECU internals do not run at 12V, they will be most likely 3V3 supplied by a controlled DC-DC, hence if the volts available is enough to crank, its more than enough for the ECU to run without any issues :y
Yes... But it's seeing 11V and having a hissy fit because of it. connect jump leads and it starts fine. Never understood why but seen it before. Last one was a ground fault. Previous was starter internals.
Sorry, disagree here.
The original symptoms state:
I've worked out the issue is a "hot start" problem. When you start the car from cold, it almost catches, then doesn't. but the next time you turn the key, it's off - no repeated cranking.
and
The car will then run all day long without missing a beat. But when you turn it off, having got up to temperature, it WILL NOT start - it just cranks over and over
Which, given that the worst case for battery terminal volts is after a period being stood and cold start, goes totally against the diagnosis some are stating. This is further backed up by the fact that even if there was a very large initial voltage dip whilst the starter engaged, the ECU would be up and running within 1-2 seconds after this assuming a watchdog event on the processor had occurred (it wont, there is more than enough smoothing caps and holdup in these units to ride through a few milliseconds of extraordinary voltage dip).
Remember all, test and diag is the key to effective diagnosis, leave the willy nilly part changing to the professionals lol :y
So questions have to be
1) Is it turning over ok (removes the battery from the equation)
2) If you continue to crank does it start (further removes the battery from the equation)
My money is still on an electronic component which is struggling when hot, classic symptoms of crank sensor actually and giving a few more volts is resulting in a few more rpm and just getting over the threshold of speed where it works. Sadly this is also the symptoms of a goosed Siemens ECU! Change the battery and you might mask the issue for a few months until the morning temperatures drop again. :y
So much more diag needed
Agree with this. But... Explain why connecting jump leads has cured the problem twice?
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I already have offered a possible...... :y ;D
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Symptoms don't point to a battery fault at all.
Starts fine when cold, wont start when hot....most important question is if the engine turns over ok, if it does, battery is not the issue.
One of the first posts says it wouldn't start from cold, stick jump leads on and it was fine.
We are in agreement that this doesn't appear to be a battery fault... I suspect a new battery would cure it in the short term but just mask the issue.
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Would the crank sensor cause the p060c code?
I considered crank sensor. But was wary because, when hot (without jump leads) the engine turns, doesn't fire, logs p060c code
When hot WITH jump leads, it starts so well and so quick, it's like it's not even had to turn over!
Is there a way to test the crank sensor rather than change it in hope?
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To test the crank sensor you really need to get an oscilloscope on the signal from it.
If the waveform is clean and strong when the second battery is connected but not when it isn't then you have nailed the problem. If there's no change to waveform with or without a second battery or hot and cold then the crank sensor is probably fine.
If you Google Fiesta and crank sensor you'll find it's not an uncommon failure. If they're not expensive it might be cheaper to change it than try to test it.
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Remember that the ECU internals do not run at 12V, they will be most likely 3V3 supplied by a controlled DC-DC, hence if the volts available is enough to crank, its more than enough for the ECU to run without any issues :y
Yes... But it's seeing 11V and having a hissy fit because of it. connect jump leads and it starts fine. Never understood why but seen it before. Last one was a ground fault. Previous was starter internals.
Sorry, disagree here.
The original symptoms state:
I've worked out the issue is a "hot start" problem. When you start the car from cold, it almost catches, then doesn't. but the next time you turn the key, it's off - no repeated cranking.
and
The car will then run all day long without missing a beat. But when you turn it off, having got up to temperature, it WILL NOT start - it just cranks over and over
Which, given that the worst case for battery terminal volts is after a period being stood and cold start, goes totally against the diagnosis some are stating. This is further backed up by the fact that even if there was a very large initial voltage dip whilst the starter engaged, the ECU would be up and running within 1-2 seconds after this assuming a watchdog event on the processor had occurred (it wont, there is more than enough smoothing caps and holdup in these units to ride through a few milliseconds of extraordinary voltage dip).
Remember all, test and diag is the key to effective diagnosis, leave the willy nilly part changing to the professionals lol :y
So questions have to be
1) Is it turning over ok (removes the battery from the equation)
2) If you continue to crank does it start (further removes the battery from the equation)
My money is still on an electronic component which is struggling when hot, classic symptoms of crank sensor actually and giving a few more volts is resulting in a few more rpm and just getting over the threshold of speed where it works. Sadly this is also the symptoms of a goosed Siemens ECU! Change the battery and you might mask the issue for a few months until the morning temperatures drop again. :y
So much more diag needed
Agree with this. But... Explain why connecting jump leads has cured the problem twice?
[Gay voice on]
Is it becoz da batteries like their nipples to twisted?
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Soooo
This morning, cold start.
Caught immediately. Ran for about a second or two, and died.
Restarted - engine ran, but sounded rough, like it was misfiring. Touched the gas to give her a gentle rev - instant death, cut out immediately.
Restarted again - purred nicely and idled/revved without issue.
If anything this is certainly making me wonder about the crank sensor.
I have today visually checked/cleaned all of the electrical connections I can find.
At the battery, with a multimeter, it's measuring 12.3 volts. Looking at live data, (engine off) the ECU reports 11.3 volts.
With the hefty omega battery hooked up, the ECU only reports 11.5 volts with the engine off. So I am wondering if, it's normal for it to see that sort of voltage in the ECU, given everything is powered up with the ignition on?
Anyhow given this morning's events I too am not sure about the battery anymore.
I am off to buy a new crank sensor in a tick. I've read failures are common so I will also pick up a cam sensor (it's in stock, and cheap enough) - BUT I'm not going to fit them yet, until this has been discussed a bit more and I'm recommended to do so, based on methodical diagnostics because I don't want to follow the "fit and hope" brigade
As an aside, with engine running, ECU reports about 13.6v.
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12.3 Volts is on the low side for a battery off load thats fully charged,normally closer to 12.7 V :y
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James, just to satisfy MY silly thought, could you connect the ECU directly to the battery? If it makes no difference, cleary my thinking is in error, but you will then be working from a point of knowledge - you can never have too much information (unless listening to the wife....).
Ron.
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12.3 Volts is on the low side for a battery off load thats fully charged,normally closer to 12.7 V :y
Exactly this.
Whilst the battery may not be the only issue the fact is you have a low performing battery and I'd be putting it on a battery tester to see if it's able to be recharged to full health...if not then you need a new battery. :)