Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: minifreek on 11 October 2015, 16:09:35
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Following a bit of track time I had in my Omega yesterday, my brakes obviously got hot and there was fade - a lot of it TBH
Is there a bolt o brake upgrade that can be readily got hold of...?
I will be upgrading the pads for EBC yellowstuff FR at some point in the near future but was wondering if something like Monaro brakes are a straight bolt on swap or if there is any other engineering required, like brake carriers need machining so they fit the Omega struts... :y
TIA :D
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tbh omega brakes where always very good but you are driving a executive car which In theory was never designed to be hacked around any track :o
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I understand that, but am asking if there is a bolt on upgrade available, not whether it will be any good on a track...
For example my car before the Omega was a Vectra B, with that there was a straight forward bolt on upgrade from the 2.6 Vectra and they was very good with Mintex pads...
Maybe the Monaro brake smight be a straight forward swap, as Im led to believe the Omega has the same running gear...?
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You want to look at this monaro upgrade, iirc it's a bolt on set up but not that easy to find the calipers. http://oldsite.omegaowners.com//forum/YaBB.pl?num=1269020773
I copied someone else and used cayeman 6 pot calipers and Audi A8 disc. Safe to say I haven't had any brake fade yet but it does require custom brackets.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/106pete/omega/A671534F-E24B-422D-A14E-477D7E1B1439_zpsebzbmevn.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/106pete/media/omega/A671534F-E24B-422D-A14E-477D7E1B1439_zpsebzbmevn.jpg.html)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/106pete/omega/72621B08-F82C-45A3-8CD9-A6C384C4EA37_zpsodk1ruh7.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/106pete/media/omega/72621B08-F82C-45A3-8CD9-A6C384C4EA37_zpsodk1ruh7.jpg.html)
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Get in touch with, serek. :)
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Upgrades are possible - especially on a track car. The maths is very complex though, with regards to brake bias front-rear and ABS thresholds.
I speak as someone who is always interested in making things better, faster and stronger, not a trained expert...
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2004 5.7 Monaro calipers are a bolt on upgrade requiring only the calipers and pads... Discs being the same thickness and diameter...
2005/6/7 Monaro Vxr calipers are also bolt on but require modified Mercedes W163 Ml discs. I have a this set up on my car and am very happy with it.
Monaro AP calipers will bolt straight on but require custom mounting bells for the (Expensive) two piece discs...
:y
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Thanks for all the brilliant answers :y
I will keep a lookout for the Monaro brakes, but what size are the rotors...? I will be upgrading the rotors too from the 296mm standard rotors... I presume the rear brakes will be OK as I upgraded them to the vented rears a couple of months ago, possibly just need to upgrade the pads to Mintex1144's as I just got a text off a mate and he said the Yellowstuff pads aren't as good as they are meant to be and he is running Mintex 1144's on his track car...
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Yeah I was goin to comment on the yellow stuff pads, personally I think all the stuff pads are crap. If you want a good friendly pad either the ferodo ds2500 or mintex 1144.
As for brake disc, I have always tracked with stock blank disc. There is no real benefit from performance disc on the road or general track day. From what I read the slotted disc are designed for clearing water off the face and the drilled holes are for gasses releasing from the pad built up by the heat but as a side effect weaken the disc and crack. If you want to replace discs every track day then go for it.
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Currently using 330x32mm plain vented Mintex discs with EBC Ultimax pads...
Perform really well but discs are scored after 3k and am on my second set of pads... Dusty as fook but fade free... My commute is 23 miles each way, mostly nsl dual carriageway but with 23 roundabouts and I am not exactly gentle with it, but the brakes will still pull it up in short order from the limit without fading at the end of the trip 8)
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I was going to ask about the Ultimax pads too... :y cheers Al...
I have new discs on the front which are vented and not drilled or grooved...
I did have Ferodo dustless pads on my Astra F and they performed very well indeed. I only fitted them as that car suffered badly from brake fade (it was only a 1.4 8V) but I drove it quite hard TBH especially on the back roads round here LOL
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I'm looking into lotus carlton discs and subaru calipers :)
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Mintex 1144s are certainly great on my Westfield. Might need something more robust on a heavier car, though. They are, however, not ECE 90 approved, so I don't believe that makes them strictly legal for road use on an Omega.
I interpret the rules to mean that they are legal on my kit car, as it's not an EU type approved vehicle.
They are marked "Not for road use". Beware, as this marking is susceptible to brake cleaner. :-X
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have 360mm discs with 6 pot brembo for about year, tested at cadwell park early this year work as should.
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I run Lucas front sliding front calipers, with 296mm vented front discs :)
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I run Lucas front sliding front calipers, with 296mm vented front discs :)
with GM disc and pads its ideal set up for every day use :y :y
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:y They saved me yesterday as there was a surprisingly tight corner at the end of a slip road (hidden behind the crest) which brought me from whatever speed down to 10mph in what felt like a nanosecond.
A PFL should have inferior brakes to a FL - however, as mine have been recently stripped down, re-greased, serviced and new pads and discs, I felt an immediate difference between these, and my previous car's (a FL). Which goes to show that a large proportion of braking efficiency is in the maintenance on the system rather than the size/power of the system in the first place. :)
Monaro calipers are on the cards, one day for sure, but anything up on that and I suspect the original 15"s and consequently the spare wheel won't fit over them. :)
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I'm looking into lotus carlton discs and subaru calipers :)
LC disks are circa £300 an axle on eBay. Anything significantly cheaper than that on eBay is almost certainly mis-advertised, and more likely for a 'standard' Carlton - so no different to standard Omega. LC Fronts are 330mmx32mm vented. And I've managed to crack 2 sets of those at various track days (with Ferrodo DS3000 pads), so came to the conclusion that they aren't really suitable for track use (on LC's anyway).
I did use my old PFL Omega on one Marham track day when the LC was busted. It had standard VX disks, calipers and the OEM pads. Performed fine all day long - no fade or boiling. I did however eventually wear the pads down to the metal backing plates :-\
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Just been looking at Mintex 1144 pads, they're a bit of a price but gotta be better than the pads I have fitted at the moment. I'm guessing that I could possibly swap pads when I go to the track and then swap back to road pads when not at the track, but that may be a bad idea for the life if the front discs maybe...?
I will be looking into buying bigger/better calipers and rotors in the future but the track season is coming to an end and so is the life of my Omega LOL
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Vectra ST and Lotus Carlton are both 330mm aren't they? Often wondered (given the bigger engined Vectras are 5 stud too) if Vectra discs would make a suitable alternative to any LC owner / Omega owner wanting an upgrade. They're similar money, however, many hundreds.
I initially thought that fitting LC brakes to mine would be a brilliant upgrade, however, looking into the maintenance issues of the calipers, on top of the initial cost/cost of maintenance, decided perhaps not. I think Monaro route is the best cost v effort v effectiveness.
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Vectra ST and Lotus Carlton are both 330mm aren't they? Often wondered (given the bigger engined Vectras are 5 stud too) if Vectra discs would make a suitable alternative to any LC owner / Omega owner wanting an upgrade. They're similar money, however, many hundreds.
I initially thought that fitting LC brakes to mine would be a brilliant upgrade, however, looking into the maintenance issues of the calipers, on top of the initial cost/cost of maintenance, decided perhaps not. I think Monaro route is the best cost v effort v effectiveness.
Nah, largest Vectra disc is 314mm and the height is well short... not to mention thickness.
On the face of it Carlton discs look ideal as they're bang on the money for thickness, diameter, hub fitting... but they're 7mm too short, so won't fit without modifying both the steering knuckle and caliper bracket...
Another bang on option remains, which should bolt straight on, and that's to obtain/fit the AP upgrade for the LC...
Can't see this being a cheap option, although the cost involved with fitting even second hand VAG parts is substantial :-\
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I have the AP Bell and Rotors modification for my LC, but I don't use it for anything except track days. The rotors are £400 a side, and handed!
LC front calipers aren't particularly maintainane intensive - the only thing that happens to them is the pistons corrode, and many of us have changed to stainless steel pistons to overcome this. Other than that they're fairly bomb proof. But - I still wouldn't suggest using them for an Omega upgrade for the following reasons...
1) They require a mounting bracket to fix them to the hub (90393151). You'll have to get that made up - so they aren't truly "bolt straight on".
2) The disk thickness of 32mmm is a bit of an odd ball for aftermarket rotors. Would be much cheaper to use either 28mm or even 36 mm disks/rotors.
3) It's getting tricky to obtain some of the seals, wipers and retainers
4) Virtually everything LC carries a price premium, and a set of LC calipers & disks would probably cost you more than a typical Omega B is worth.
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Can you send me ALL the disc/bell dimensions you have if you get a moment... :y
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Can you send me ALL the disc/bell dimensions you have if you get a moment... :y
Thinking that the bells would be perfect for 356x36mm discs with Monaro AP calipers... ::)
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Vectra ST and Lotus Carlton are both 330mm aren't they? Often wondered (given the bigger engined Vectras are 5 stud too) if Vectra discs would make a suitable alternative to any LC owner / Omega owner wanting an upgrade. They're similar money, however, many hundreds.
I initially thought that fitting LC brakes to mine would be a brilliant upgrade, however, looking into the maintenance issues of the calipers, on top of the initial cost/cost of maintenance, decided perhaps not. I think Monaro route is the best cost v effort v effectiveness.
Nah, largest Vectra disc is 314mm and the height is well short... not to mention thickness.
On the face of it Carlton discs look ideal as they're bang on the money for thickness, diameter, hub fitting... but they're 7mm too short, so won't fit without modifying both the steering knuckle and caliper bracket...
Another bang on option remains, which should bolt straight on, and that's to obtain/fit the AP upgrade for the LC...
Can't see this being a cheap option, although the cost involved with fitting even second hand VAG parts is substantial :-\
The naughty Vauxhall people have been quoted as saying the following...
"Swindon race engineering carried out the work on the V6, they tried different cam and ecu set ups but found the MV6 inlet cam was so close to what they needed, they used that instead. The ECU was not changed due to cost reliability and strict emission controls
The pre sales pack, which was written before the car was launched, said it had ecu upgrade and would come with 6 speed box, this was not the case, it also said it would come with 325mm grooved discs but plain 330mm were fitted instead
Full spec over and above the SRi( GSi wasnt available at the time):-
Speedline Mistral 7.5J*17 alloys ET49 5 spoke with full size spare
Steinmetz side skirts
AP LSD
AP lower final drive - 4.45:1
AP road/ race 4 pot brakes with Goodridge braided hoses
X30XE inlet cams
Koni road/ race suspension package, 35mm drop
Recaro front seats with Eurosport motif, matching trim to rear seats and door cards"
perhaps they lie? :-\
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It isn't just the disc diameter and thickness... the disc height is significant as that dictates the position of the caliper, which in turn dictates the wheel offset... :y Then there's the wheel nut pcd and centre bore sizes to consider...
This is why I currently use Merc ML discs, as the height is the closest off the shelf 330x32 disc, and it still requires machining to fit
Sereks approach with VAG discs require the hub to be machined as well as the caliper mounts... all costs to be factored in...
Which is what makes the two piece disc and bell approach much more viable as the disc height can be tailor made allowing the caliper to bolt straight on and have the disc in exactly the right place with perfect bell to hub dimension without fouling the wheel...
This ius why the Monaro stuff is so appealing as the calipers share a common mounting dimension with the Omega. I am currently kicking myself for overlooking the LC option, as the LC discs and calipers would comfortably fit the Omega, but would probably demand a wheel offset of ET33 or lower due to the shallower discs (8mm difference as far as I can tell)...
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Can you send me ALL the disc/bell dimensions you have if you get a moment... :y
Found 'em. Here's a drawing which is close enough for first approximations.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/LC0112G/disk-bell.jpg
Ahhh - I can't seem to stop photobucket resizing the image down. If you can't read it, pm me an email address and I'll send you the larger jpg.
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Thanks :y
Pm incoming as that downsizing malarkey is rather small :D
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2004 5.7 Monaro calipers are a bolt on upgrade requiring only the calipers and pads... Discs being the same thickness and diameter...
I have this set-up on my Catera and in addition to the 2004 GTO/Monaro calipers and mounts you must use the Monaro brake hose or an appropriate aftermarket substitute. The Omega hose is shorter and will be stretched and damaged at full steering lock. The Monaro and Omega discs share the same dimensions so there is no mechanical advantage (leverage) in terms of braking. The increase in stopping power is all due to the calipers and pads. I use C5 Corvette brake pads in place of the GTO/Monaro pads due to their increased friction area. I also use aftermarket slotted discs because I'm a geek and like to think they make a big difference. Maybe, maybe not.......but they sure look spiffy, especially painted red.
NOTE: You lose the brake pad wear warning. Clip the sensor and short them together or the damned light will be forever lit.
Words and Pictures:
http://cateraowners.forumotion.com/t5-gto-brake-swap#10
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Monaro calipers are on the cards, one day for sure, but anything up on that and I suspect the original 15"s and consequently the spare wheel won't fit over them. :)
The GTO/Monaro calipers will clear the standard 16 inch Catera wheels. Can't verify whether they'll fit with the spare. Never thought about it. I'm screwed if it doesn't and I get a flat up front.
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Monaro calipers are on the cards, one day for sure, but anything up on that and I suspect the original 15"s and consequently the spare wheel won't fit over them. :)
The GTO/Monaro calipers will clear the standard 16 inch Catera wheels. Can't verify whether they'll fit with the spare. Never thought about it. I'm screwed if it doesn't and I get a flat up front.
The 15" steel rim spare will fit the setup with the GTO calipers.
http://www.opelomegaportal.nl/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=37 (Sorry its in Dutch).
I am working on the next brake setup with larger rotors 345mm .
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Monaro calipers are on the cards, one day for sure, but anything up on that and I suspect the original 15"s and consequently the spare wheel won't fit over them. :)
The GTO/Monaro calipers will clear the standard 16 inch Catera wheels. Can't verify whether they'll fit with the spare. Never thought about it. I'm screwed if it doesn't and I get a flat up front.
The 15" steel rim spare will fit the setup with the GTO calipers.
http://www.opelomegaportal.nl/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=37 (Sorry its in Dutch).
I am working on the next brake setup with larger rotors 345mm .
Only if you use the 2004 calipers with the standard discs... Monaro VXR standard discs are 330x32 fronts and 314x18 rears and the caliper brackets are spaced differently to allow for this. Believe this is the 'Corvette' upgrade in the States :-\
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Monaro '04 Calipers with standard Omega wheels only, then. Anything 'up' on that and we need to start carrying a different spare wheel, then. Fair enough. I can live with that. When I do it, probably some time in summer 2019 :y
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The VXR sized discs demand 17"+ wheels, the full fat AP etc ones demand a minimum of 18"s :y
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Monaro '04 Calipers with standard Omega wheels only, then. Anything 'up' on that and we need to start carrying a different spare wheel, then. Fair enough. I can live with that. When I do it, probably some time in summer 2019 :y
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Out of interest, will a FL CD 16" fit in the spare wheel well? I have a surplus and if one fits I'll carry one in the Special when its back on the road...
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I think technically it doesn't. However, if you jam it in, it will. Might have to have the spare wheel cover on a bit loose or something, if memory serves.
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Monaro '04 Calipers with standard Omega wheels only, then. Anything 'up' on that and we need to start carrying a different spare wheel, then. Fair enough. I can live with that. When I do it, probably some time in summer 2019 :y
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Out of interest, will a FL CD 16" fit in the spare wheel well? I have a surplus and if one fits I'll carry one in the Special when its back on the road...
Be a squeeze, but you should get most of it in... Original spare is a 195 width iirc, the extra 30mm is what tightens it up :y