Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Shackeng on 29 October 2015, 15:06:16
-
Just been trailered home for the first time in 30 years after the power steering failed on the TD. Fluid level OK, no leaks, and belt OK. I conclude it is a pump change, unless someone knows better. :-\ :y
-
Fuse/Relay? :-\
-
Ohhh, sorry to read that! :(
Pump sounds right to me, can't see what else it may be. Assuming the appropriate fuse has been checked, as Mr Tunnie says?
-
I've only had it 16 years, did you expect me to know it has a fuse? :-[
Seriously, I thought it was purely hydro-mechanical, but will check. :y
Yep, controls AC and cig. lighter etc. as well, 30A and serviceable. :y
Looks like the pump then.
-
I'm still puzzled, this is not an electro-hydraulic pump is it? :-\
-
It's servotronic PAS, there is a relay behind the glovebox I think on Omega of your vintage :-\
-
Does the Community have an opinion on pattern pumps?
-
It's servotronic PAS, there is a relay behind the glovebox I think on Omega of your vintage :-\
Thanks Mark, so it may be a relay. :-\
-
If anyone can say what PAS pumps fit what Omegas (or what specifically PAS pumps will fit Shackeng's TD) then I can ask around my local 'contacts' see if anyone's got a known good GM pump :)
-
It's servotronic PAS, there is a relay behind the glovebox I think on Omega of your vintage :-\
Thanks Mark, so it may be a relay. :-\
Maybe, I've read many more issues here with the relay, rather than the pump :y
-
Imo, if the fluid is cleanish and the belts still in one piece / fuse okay then your looking at the relay Shack
Relay will be a tall red one at the back of your glovebox :y
-
I should have added that, this occurred on start up after event free driving and parking, the steering was just solid, however, if I gave it about 3000 rpm, I ocsnly got a slight bit of power steering back. This would indicate to me that it is unlikely to be electrical failure, as I don't think the relay would be affected by revs. :-\
-
Unfortunately, the pumps are no longer avlbl from VX, and are unique to the TD. :(
-
I should have added that, this occurred on start up after event free driving and parking, the steering was just solid, however, if I gave it about 3000 rpm, I ocsnly got a slight bit of power steering back. This would indicate to me that it is unlikely to be electrical failure, as I don't think the relay would be affected by revs. :-\
The fluid tends to turn to shit as the pump breaks down inside.
The amount of assistance that the pump gives is dependent on the car speed (probably taken off the abs sensors)
If the relay is oppsed, my money is that it will shut a valve in the system somewhere so you get no assistance :-\
Iirc, the BMW E34 5 series 2.5 td is the same pump
-
Fingers crossed that its relay, but I'll message my mate who used to have TD Elite he broke a number of years ago, he took all useful bits off it, and promptly shoved them all in storage. I've had a
bloody shed load few bits off him in the past. Will pop him a message :)
-
I should have added that, this occurred on start up after event free driving and parking, the steering was just solid, however, if I gave it about 3000 rpm, I ocsnly got a slight bit of power steering back. This would indicate to me that it is unlikely to be electrical failure, as I don't think the relay would be affected by revs. :-\
The fluid tends to turn to shit as the pump breaks down inside.
The amount of assistance that the pump gives is dependent on the car speed (probably taken off the abs sensors)
If the relay is oppsed, my money is that it will shut a valve in the system somewhere so you get no assistance :-\
Exactly, so unlikely to give any assistance even at high revs.
-
Fingers crossed that its relay, but I'll message my mate who used to have TD Elite he broke a number of years ago, he took all useful bits off it, and promptly shoved them all in storage. I've had a bloody shed load few bits off him in the past. Will pop him a message :)
Thank you James. :y
-
I should have added that, this occurred on start up after event free driving and parking, the steering was just solid, however, if I gave it about 3000 rpm, I ocsnly got a slight bit of power steering back. This would indicate to me that it is unlikely to be electrical failure, as I don't think the relay would be affected by revs. :-\
The fluid tends to turn to shit as the pump breaks down inside.
The amount of assistance that the pump gives is dependent on the car speed (probably taken off the abs sensors)
If the relay is oppsed, my money is that it will shut a valve in the system somewhere so you get no assistance :-\
Exactly, so unlikely to give any assistance even at high revs.
Unless the 3000 revs gave a voltage spike which kicked the relay in for a few seconds until it finally burnt out :-\
-
If needed, there are a few pumps on eBay ranging from 20 quid (used) upto 80 quid (new)
-
If needed, there are a few pumps on eBay ranging from 20 quid (used) upto 80 quid (new)
Not many for the TD though. :(
-
IIRC if the servotronic relay or fuse fails it just defaults to either "min" or "max" assistance .. not "no" assistance.
-
If needed, there are a few pumps on eBay ranging from 20 quid (used) upto 80 quid (new)
Not many for the TD though. :(
Don't forget the E34 BMW 5 series had the same engine ;)
I'd still swap the relay first though
-
IIRC if the servotronic relay or fuse fails it just defaults to either "min" or "max" assistance .. not "no" assistance.
Ah OK, thanks Aaron, I was trying to avoid grovelling under the glove box, but on reflection, probably easier than changing the pump.
Is there an easy way to test the Rl in the bench, otherwise I hope RobG has one, although I know he usually keeps FL bits. ::) :y
-
If needed, there are a few pumps on eBay ranging from 20 quid (used) upto 80 quid (new)
Not many for the TD though. :(
Don't forget the E34 BMW 5 series had the same engine ;)
I'd still swap the relay first though
Yes, I did know that, and I see the pumps advertised for both together, so another option. :y
-
Does anyone know if its possible to check the relay on the bench with a simple test meter and a 12v battery?
-
Not sure the TD has servotronic at all, does it? Thought that was the preserve of the V6, but may be wrong.
In any case, no electrical failure mode will give you no assistance. Worst case it'll get a bit heavier but not enough to prompt a trip home on a recovery truck.
Given that the behaviour was RPM- related, my money is on a failure of the pump. :y
-
Presumably the belt is intact :-\
-
Thanks Kevin, confirms my thinking also. It doesn't help that the handbooks are generic and list a 30A fuse for the steering etc., but as you say, may not apply to mine. None of the pics I've seen of replacement TD pumps appear to have electrical connections. :y
-
Presumably the belt is intact :-\
Affirm, first thing I checked. :y
-
Presumably the belt is intact :-\
Affirm, first thing I checked. :y
I figured it would be but we all have our Homer Simpson moments ;)
-
Not sure the TD has servotronic at all, does it? Thought that was the preserve of the V6, but may be wrong.
In any case, no electrical failure mode will give you no assistance. Worst case it'll get a bit heavier but not enough to prompt a trip home on a recovery truck.
Given that the behaviour was RPM- related, my money is on a failure of the pump. :y
It was virtually solid, with just the vaguest hint of assistance at the sort of revs which wake the neighbours, so undriveable. (I did think of trying!)
-
Presumably the belt is intact :-\
Affirm, first thing I checked. :y
I figured it would be but we all have our Homer Simpson moments ;)
Indeed, and up until Kevins post, I was feeling very stupid, as I had never thought the pump was electrically assisted in some way. (It may still be). I'm hoping Seth might tell me, I think he still has his TD. :y
-
AFAIK the servotronic actuator is also on the steering box, not the pump ;) It opens and closes a restrictive orifice to lower the fluid pressure when less assistance is required but, as said, even in it's 'default' position (if it were cream crackered) you'd still be able to drive & steer.
-
AFAIK the servotronic actuator is also on the steering box, not the pump ;) It opens and closes a restrictive orifice to lower the fluid pressure when less assistance is required but, as said, even in it's 'default' position (if it were cream crackered) you'd still be able to drive & steer.
On the TD as well?
-
I have a f/l td sat on my drive at the moment ,just failed its MOT, and have not yet decided what to do with it but it will probably go to the big place wherever dead omegas go!
If you are struggling you can have the pump off this if that's within your timeframe( I wont have chance to do anything for about a week).
-
Actually, research shows that my suspicion was incorrect and the TD does have servotronic.
I still think it's the pump, though.
-
Any use?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Power-Steering-Pump-Vauxhall-Omega-2500cc-Diesel-2-5-TD-X25TD-U25TD-9156354-/200874593605?hash=item2ec50f0d45:m:mB3gr8lGN2gaN4cUdQLD85Q
:y
-
I have a f/l td sat on my drive at the moment ,just failed its MOT, and have not yet decided what to do with it but it will probably go to the big place wherever dead omegas go!
If you are struggling you can have the pump off this if that's within your timeframe( I wont have chance to do anything for about a week).
Thks, but if I have to replace it, I'll try to fit a new one. :y
-
Any use?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Power-Steering-Pump-Vauxhall-Omega-2500cc-Diesel-2-5-TD-X25TD-U25TD-9156354-/200874593605?hash=item2ec50f0d45:m:mB3gr8lGN2gaN4cUdQLD85Q
:y
Thks Al, see post above. :y
-
Actually, research shows that my suspicion was incorrect and the TD does have servotronic.
I still think it's the pump, though.
Thks Kevin, I'm inclined to agree. However, is it possible to check the relay on the bench with limited test equipment and a 12v supply? :y
-
I wouldn't know about testing the relay, but I do remember they are very expensive new from VX. somewhere in the region of £200 if my memory serves me. So, if you need one, second hand is the way to go.
-
Actually, research shows that my suspicion was incorrect and the TD does have servotronic.
I still think it's the pump, though.
Thks Kevin, I'm inclined to agree. However, is it possible to check the relay on the bench with limited test equipment and a 12v supply? :y
It's not actually just a relay, although the appearance might make one assume that it is. It's actually an ECU which takes as an input the vehicle speed signal that's used to drive the speedometer, and outputs a pulsed signal that's used to modulate a valve in the steering box that alters the level of assistance of the steering.
A mapping within the ECU relates vehicle speed to level of assistance.
If the system is completely unpowered, the valve is open, allowing fluid to flow through a bypass passage in the box, and this results in a drop in hydraulic pressure at the steering box, giving the minimum level of assistance, so this is the worst case scenario. The minimum level of assistance is, I would say, roughly what you used to get in a car without PAS. I.e. noticeably more weighty, but you wouldn't worry at all about driving home.
At low road speeds, the servotronic ECU will close the valve progressively by pulsing its' actuator, increasing the available hydraulic pressure and the assistance provided.
So, it's not that easy to test on the bench, although it can be interrogated by Tech 2. I don't believe its' failure would give the symptoms you describe, however.
-
Thanks very much Kevin, I am reluctantly forced to agree that it is most likely the pump. I will try replacing the servo Rl, I can swap one out of the 3.2, assuming they are the same, to check. :y :y :y
-
They are probably similar, but may have a different config.
Close enough to try it out, but I think you'll find it makes no difference.
-
They are probably similar, but may have a different config.
Close enough to try it out, but I think you'll find it makes no difference.
Having just tracked it down, I think its easier to change the pump, which I am about to order. :y
-
Rebuilt pump ordered for approximately a third of the car's value at £120. As I will flush the system before fitting the new pump I came across this http://www.dvatp.com/bmw/power_steering_flush, which is interesting. I have previously changed the fluid as I had to remove a damage pipe, but I had not considered regular flushes. :y
-
did you get any warning signs?
i think my pump is on the way out - fluid won't stay clean, apparently it is a pattern pump. two or three times now i have had very stiff steering on startup, even with some revs. problem went within a minute and seemed to improve after a few fluid flushes.
i hadn't appreciated pump failure is a show stopper, has assumed i could still steer, just it would be a lot stiffer. another thing to worry about being stranded with.
-
did you get any warning signs?
i think my pump is on the way out - fluid won't stay clean, apparently it is a pattern pump. two or three times now i have had very stiff steering on startup, even with some revs. problem went within a minute and seemed to improve after a few fluid flushes.
i hadn't appreciated pump failure is a show stopper, has assumed i could still steer, just it would be a lot stiffer. another thing to worry about being stranded with.
None at all, parked up, fine, 1 hour later started up, steering almost solid!
-
Indeed, and up until Kevins post, I was feeling very stupid, as I had never thought the pump was electrically assisted in some way. (It may still be). I'm hoping Seth might tell me, I think he still has his TD. :y
Got a spare pump here, though can't see any electrickery on it, Chris ???
Although our TD's now in semi-retirement, you're welcome to a lend. For elimination purposes, if you wish ;)
-
New one on order Byron, thanks anyway. :y :y :y :y :y :y
-
For interest, the 'rebuilt' pump i bought from Steering Specialists e-Bay for £120, I was advised by the supplier these are new OE pumps bought as surplus stock from GM. :y
-
just wondering if the new pump fixed this in the end. if so is the oof conclusion that a pump failure will always/sometimes result in total immobilisation of the car?
useful to know - i had always assumed before it would just be like switching the engine off while moving - still steering and braking but both much stiffer. might be worth carrying a spare pump.
-
just wondering if the new pump fixed this in the end. if so is the oof conclusion that a pump failure will always/sometimes result in total immobilisation of the car?
useful to know - i had always assumed before it would just be like switching the engine off while moving - still steering and braking but both much stiffer. might be worth carrying a spare pump.
TD pumps are different to the rest of the range iirc...
-
There are a few pumps online. ::)
-
just wondering if the new pump fixed this in the end. if so is the oof conclusion that a pump failure will always/sometimes result in total immobilisation of the car?
useful to know - i had always assumed before it would just be like switching the engine off while moving - still steering and braking but both much stiffer. might be worth carrying a spare pump.
Steering gets heavy and brakes require more press.
Its dependent on how able you are, I have driven a towed Omega on three occasions with no engine running fro 100 miles or so each time and its quite doable.
-
....
Its dependent on how able you are, I have driven a towed Omega on three occasions with no engine running fro 100 miles or so each time and its quite doable.
but you'd prefer not to ;)
-
....
Its dependent on how able you are, I have driven a towed Omega on three occasions with no engine running fro 100 miles or so each time and its quite doable.
but you'd prefer not to ;)
I had a 15 mile tow behind an AA van on a rigid bar.
OK on the open road but I thought the steering shaft was going to snap at T junctions and tight corners.
-
.... I had a 15 mile tow behind an AA van on a rigid bar.
...
and it makes it evem more difficult when you can't see up the road because of the van
-
I had one of those I think they should be banned.steering is very difficult and I wonder what damage it does to the towed car.
-
....
Its dependent on how able you are, I have driven a towed Omega on three occasions with no engine running fro 100 miles or so each time and its quite doable.
but you'd prefer not to ;)
I had a 15 mile tow behind an AA van on a rigid bar.
OK on the open road but I thought the steering shaft was going to snap at T junctions and tight corners.
Done that... Fortunately as a result of clutch failure. I still had brakes and steering, which the AA chap hadn't allowed for braking at roundabouts :D
Trying to brake gently when the towing (ie 4ft in front) vehicle brakes hard (whilst compensating for the car on the tow bar) for roundabouts :D
I would count to five when he braked and then brake gently... Redefined ripping the arse out of summat ::) poor sod didn't know what to do ;D
-
Having been towed in both TD and V6 Omegas, the TD felt heavier. Probably due to the weight of lump.
Obviously, as we're used to power steering now, its not a pleasant experience at low speeds, but as DTM says, doable :)
-
I had one of those I think they should be banned.steering is very difficult and I wonder what damage it does to the towed car.
Rigid poles are safer than ropes, and easier for both the tower and towee. This is why it is the only legal means of towing a car on the motorway. That said, many of the poles sold for this use are so flimsy that they are unfit for purpose.
As for damage to either car, the biggest cause is the manufacturer's use of screw-in 'tow eyes' that are not actually meant for that job.
-
Rigid poles are safer than ropes, and easier for both the tower and towee.
Absolutely agree :y
As for damage to either car, the biggest cause is the manufacturer's use of screw-in 'tow eyes' that are not actually meant for that job.
Can you elaborate please?
-
I had one of those I think they should be banned.steering is very difficult and I wonder what damage it does to the towed car.
Rigid poles are safer than ropes, and easier for both the tower and towee. This is why it is the only legal means of towing a car on the motorway. That said, many of the poles sold for this use are so flimsy that they are unfit for purpose.
As for damage to either car, the biggest cause is the manufacturer's use of screw-in 'tow eyes' that are not actually meant for that job.
The damage occurs when the towing vehicle gets out of line. First the pole contacts bodywork and bends the eye, then the towing vehicle brakes and the towed vehicle goes for an overtake and wraps the pole round both bumpers.
It doesn't help that the bar goes from a towbar in the centre of the towing vehicle to an (off centre) eye in the chassis leg of the towed vehicle.
-
Rigid poles are safer than ropes, and easier for both the tower and towee.
Absolutely agree :y
As for damage to either car, the biggest cause is the manufacturer's use of screw-in 'tow eyes' that are not actually meant for that job.
Can you elaborate please?
Go and look at the 'towing eye' in the boot of your Zafira, paying particular attention to the length and quality of the threads.. Then examine what it screws into, paying particular attention to the length and quality of the threads. And the fact that it's offset in the car.
Then come back and I'll answer any further questions you might have.
-
Go and look at the 'towing eye' in the boot of your Zafira, paying particular attention to the length and quality of the threads.. Then examine what it screws into, paying particular attention to the length and quality of the threads. And the fact that it's offset in the car.
Not sure I know where it is, or if its still there ;D
I'd made an assumption that it would be similar to Omega, which has proved adequate in my experience - although mechanical sympathy has always ensured that sudden shocks are reduced as much as possible.
-
just wondering if the new pump fixed this in the end. if so is the oof conclusion that a pump failure will always/sometimes result in total immobilisation of the car?
useful to know - i had always assumed before it would just be like switching the engine off while moving - still steering and braking but both much stiffer. might be worth carrying a spare pump.
Sorry for the delay MM, yes the new pump restored full power steering. So to recap, steering was fine when parked up. 1 hour later, steering solid, though at F1 revs, the slightest assistance was felt. New OE pump, £120 from Steering Components fitted, now all good. :y