Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 27 December 2015, 22:38:47
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Who's hot and who's not at the mo?
Got an intermittent wander and I suspect them (i'll confirm for sure next week) so who's recommended at a decent price.
Cheers ladies
and merry Christmas to you all :y
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Atp combo set if you're on a budget...
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Atp combo set if you're on a budget...
cheers :y
out of interest what sort of time would you expect OE or similar bones to last? ive had 3 years out of these ATP ones therefore I feel ive had my worth out of them....unless of course you say OE ones should last ten years ;D
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Properly torqued, OE should manage 80-120k, ATP should last 20K minimum. This doesn't sound great, but genuine wishbones retail at £280 EACH whereas ATP wishbones, droplinks and track rods are delivered as a complete set for £80-90...
And for the naysayers, given the state of the roads, geo should be checked annually/biannually depending on mileage, so at that price, you might as well treat them as disposable items and renew them every 20K...
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thanks for confirming that.
ive had good use out of them then :y
after fitting them (assuming they are the issue) I plan on checking / adjusting my geo myself over the next week as we have got a 4wheel aligner now (adjusting to WIM settings I may add :y)
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Cheaper to re-bush and poly existing ones.
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I really must get around to sourcing an old pair of GM wishbones to refurb for my car. It badly needs the front end sorting / setting up.
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Properly torqued, OE should manage 80-120k, ATP should last 20K minimum. This doesn't sound great, but genuine wishbones retail at £280 EACH whereas ATP wishbones, droplinks and track rods are delivered as a complete set for £80-90...
And for the naysayers, given the state of the roads, geo should be checked annually/biannually depending on mileage, so at that price, you might as well treat them as disposable items and renew them every 20K...
What is ATP :-\
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Properly torqued, OE should manage 80-120k, ATP should last 20K minimum. This doesn't sound great, but genuine wishbones retail at £280 EACH whereas ATP wishbones, droplinks and track rods are delivered as a complete set for £80-90...
And for the naysayers, given the state of the roads, geo should be checked annually/biannually depending on mileage, so at that price, you might as well treat them as disposable items and renew them every 20K...
What is ATP :-\
How long have you been here...
They are a mahoosive German motor factors. Is googly broken or summat. ???
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Never changed a wishbone on any Omega yet , probably as i dont keep them long enough ;D
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/biggrin.gif)
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Cheaper to re-bush and poly existing ones.
Have you seen the price of poly bushes lately :o
Actually cheaper to buy the Atp set... Still comes in ceaper than poly/new rear/ball joints, even ignoring the fact Atp will supply track rods and droplinks ;)
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Lemforder on both 3.2 and 2.2 here, very happy with them. :y
Both well overdue a WIM session really, the 3.2 has not been in 4 years ::) - 2.2 it's been about 3 years i think :o :o :o
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Auto Teile Pollath... Think of them as the German equivalent of Camberley Auto Factors ;)
Link for set...
https://www.atp-autoteile.de/group/1150201/product/15808/18846/details
About £73 delivered....
To put that into perspective, front poly bushes are currently £53 :-X
Oh, and unlike Allgerman, if they say they have the parts in stock, they actually have the parts in stock.
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I changed the wishbones on 2.2 at approx. 160k - The 3.2's as you know went on when I took it over at just under 140k.
Can't see a need for me to ever change them again ;)
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Thanks for link al. Now just got to brush up on my jerry ::)
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Thanks for link al. Now just got to brush up on my jerry ::)
Nothing to brush up ::) check out is just like any other...
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Thanks for link al. Now just got to brush up on my jerry ::)
Nothing to brush up ::) check out is just like any other...
Was only joking. I'm sure I can figure it out ::)
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Also worth taking in to consideration is what ride quality you want (if this is important), after-market arms will give different results to genuine ones.
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Also worth taking in to consideration is what ride quality you want (if this is important), after-market arms will give different results to genuine ones.
I doubt anyone is likely to notice a difference in ride quality from wishbones on a softly sprung, heavy road car!
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Did i hear on here some disappointment on wishbones being poly'd , hash ride compared and what about wishbones failing due to the fitting of them ???
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Did i hear on here some disappointment on wishbones being poly'd , hash ride compared and what about wishbones failing due to the fitting of them ???
Wishbone failure from.fitting poly ONLY refers to the replacing of the vertical bush with a poly improvisation. Replacing the front horizontal bush with polys is a well trodden and perfectly safe path.
As to ride harshness or not, that's a matter of personal preference. Any doubts then either drive a car with them fitted or don't bother fitting them... Personally, I prefer the lack of wishy-washyness that the original bushes have built in...
As for the difference in feel between genuine and pattern, pattern are a touch lighter, reducing unsprung weight... But as Nick so succinctly suggests, on a two ton road car, it's all rather irrelevant ;)
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Did i hear on here some disappointment on wishbones being poly'd , hash ride compared and what about wishbones failing due to the fitting of them ???
As you only poly the front bush there is no real noticeable change in ride. The only thing that I noticed when I did mine was that a slight wheel imbalance was highlighted, whereas before it was disguised by the soft rubber bush. A proper wheel balance eliminated this though. :y
Mine have been in a long time now and I've since refurbed the wishbones using GM vertical rear bush and they appeared to be fine stress wise.
I believe the failures were down to stress/fatigue caused by a poly rear vertical bush, which in fairness, the members who were trialling them stressed were an experiment. :y
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Also worth taking in to consideration is what ride quality you want (if this is important), after-market arms will give different results to genuine ones.
I doubt anyone is likely to notice a difference in ride quality from wishbones on a softly sprung, heavy road car!
On standard suspension there is definitely a difference, with the genuine arms majority of any resonance is taken up by the bushes, they were designed with this in mind, and it works. On a like-for-like setup you will feel more through the steering wheel with after-market products.
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Also worth taking in to consideration is what ride quality you want (if this is important), after-market arms will give different results to genuine ones.
I doubt anyone is likely to notice a difference in ride quality from wishbones on a softly sprung, heavy road car!
On standard suspension there is definitely a difference, with the genuine arms majority of any resonance is taken up by the bushes, they were designed with this in mind, and it works. On a like-for-like setup you will feel more through the steering wheel with after-market products.
If you mean by virtue of the fact that they have oil filled bladders in the front bush, guess what, so do the arms/bushes supplied by ATP...
Still doesn't justify the price difference either...
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Also worth taking in to consideration is what ride quality you want (if this is important), after-market arms will give different results to genuine ones.
I doubt anyone is likely to notice a difference in ride quality from wishbones on a softly sprung, heavy road car!
On standard suspension there is definitely a difference, with the genuine arms majority of any resonance is taken up by the bushes, they were designed with this in mind, and it works. On a like-for-like setup you will feel more through the steering wheel with after-market products.
If you mean by virtue of the fact that they have oil filled bladders in the front bush, guess what, so do the arms/bushes supplied by ATP...
That's good at least they can be obtained via other means because it's worth it.
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Have ATP on all three cars.. all good :y
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We often chat on here about replacing these arms because of the main bush failure.....nothing mentioned about replacing the ball joint or the other bush...is this because they very rarely fail ????
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We often chat on here about replacing these arms because of the main bush failure.....nothing mentioned about replacing the ball joint or the other bush...is this because they very rarely fail ????
There are two approaches...
1. Refurbish original arms, assuming they are straight and fit for purpose, using genuine/poly fronts/ genuine rears/ new ball joints.
2. Fit cheapy replacements such as those I linked to, stupidly good value for money, and treat as a disposable service item.
The third approach is 2. But swapping cheapy bushes for those in 1. ;)
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You also need to be realistic about the life expectancy of the wishbones...
Whilst genuine wishbones which are sound and true might seem viable for refurbishing, wishbones vary in build quality... And bushes can deform if not precisely pressed home, shortening their life...
Whilst original wishbones last 80-120k miles, even genuine replacements are unlikely to hit 80K, which makes a mockery of the fact they cost over ten times more than cheapy ones which should last 15-20k miles. Even allowing for the geometry costs, replacing like for like cheapies on an annual basis still far better value cost per mile than messing around either refurbishing or going genuine.
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Have ATP on all three cars.. all good :y
What about the Monaro :D
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Have ATP on all three cars.. all good :y
What about the Monaro :D
Monaros don't have wishbones...
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Just ordered some rear wishbone bushes from GM at £16 +vat each. I would of been better off leaving the original rear bushes when i fitted the front polys instead of fitting the cheap first line crap that i could get my hands on at the time.
10 left at the main warehouse apparently..
All the rest of the front suspension checks out good along with the camber setting so hopefully new quality bushes will sort out my vehicles darting on brake application. (Had a brake test done today which checked out ok)
I recon having polys on the front must put a bit more pressure on the rear ones..
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Just ordered some rear wishbone bushes from GM at £16 +vat each. I would of been better off leaving the original rear bushes when i fitted the front polys instead of fitting the cheap first line crap that i could get my hands on at the time.
10 left at the main warehouse apparently..
All the rest of the front suspension checks out good along with the camber setting so hopefully new quality bushes will sort out my vehicles darting on brake application. (Had a brake test done today which checked out ok)
I recon having polys on the front must put a bit more pressure on the rear ones..
That is a school of thought, but genuine gm parts are not necessarily of the same quality as the factory fitted items... Also, those who fit poly bushes tend to enjoy driving their cars in a more spirited manner which will in turn put more load on the suspension as a whole...
It's not the fitting of the popybushes to blame for this, but rather that they make the car feel a bit more responsive and therefore nicer to drive a bit harder... Drive a non poly car the same way and the rear bushes will most likely fail in the same time frame imho...
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Well, due to time restraints and access to the shop for own work I've had to get them from a local supplier.
Quinton Hazell for £73 inc. VAT for the pair.
Was really hoping to get time to put ATP ones on, having used them previously, but it is what it is. Arrive tomorrow. Hopefully they'll last at least a year. ::)
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Wonder if ATP do 190e wishbones...
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Wonder if ATP do 190e wishbones...
Be surprised if they don't, but have you tried MB?
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Wonder if ATP do 190e wishbones...
Be surprised if they don't, but have you tried MB?
Not yet. The cute parts girl has had her hair cut and now looks a bit scary. Hope she still looks after me...
I shall be doing a full bush, spring and shock job at some point so will be pricing up from various outlets... on the 190, not the parts girl, before you all start.
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Lol, don't dismiss them out of hand as most service items are pretty competitive ;)
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Lol, don't dismiss them out of hand as most service items are pretty competitive ;)
Oh, without a doubt. Theyre on good terms with both MrsGK and I, we've both been in many times asking for random widgets for proper motor cars. :y
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Sorry if I've read this wrong. But.
The pinch bolt for the ball joint is 100nm. And the front bush bolt 120nm + 30 deg. + 15 deg. with suspension loaded. Is the rear bush the same torque as the front bush?
Sorry. Just a bit confused
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Yup, both bolts the same torque + :y
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Yup, both bolts the same torque + :y
h
I thought I'd read it right but always worth checking. Cheers taxi :y
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Had it been 3 years since we changed your wishbones :o
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Well, due to time restraints and access to the shop for own work I've had to get them from a local supplier.
Quinton Hazell for £73 inc. VAT for the pair.
Was really hoping to get time to put ATP ones on, having used them previously, but it is what it is. Arrive tomorrow. Hopefully they'll last at least a year. ::)
Bloody Americanism's
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Well, due to time restraints and access to the shop for own work I've had to get them from a local supplier.
Quinton Hazell for £73 inc. VAT for the pair.
Was really hoping to get time to put ATP ones on, having used them previously, but it is what it is. Arrive tomorrow. Hopefully they'll last at least a year. ::)
Interesting. Mine needs new shocks and while it's all apart I want to change the wishbones as well, but after a bad experience with a set of ATP's I won't be buying them again. :(
Is the rear bush carrier welded all the way round on your QH set or spot welded like the ATP's? ???
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Well, due to time restraints and access to the shop for own work I've had to get them from a local supplier.
Quinton Hazell for £73 inc. VAT for the pair.
Was really hoping to get time to put ATP ones on, having used them previously, but it is what it is. Arrive tomorrow. Hopefully they'll last at least a year. ::)
Interesting. Mine needs new shocks and while it's all apart I want to change the wishbones as well, but after a bad experience with a set of ATP's I won't be buying them again. :(
Is the rear bush carrier welded all the way round on your QH set or spot welded like the ATP's? ???
:-X :-X
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Well, due to time restraints and access to the shop for own work I've had to get them from a local supplier.
Quinton Hazell for £73 inc. VAT for the pair.
Was really hoping to get time to put ATP ones on, having used them previously, but it is what it is. Arrive tomorrow. Hopefully they'll last at least a year. ::)
Bloody Americanism's
Would be ok if he put 'shop though ;)
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Well, due to time restraints and access to the shop for own work I've had to get them from a local supplier.
Quinton Hazell for £73 inc. VAT for the pair.
Was really hoping to get time to put ATP ones on, having used them previously, but it is what it is. Arrive tomorrow. Hopefully they'll last at least a year. ::)
Interesting. Mine needs new shocks and while it's all apart I want to change the wishbones as well, but after a bad experience with a set of ATP's I won't be buying them again. :(
Is the rear bush carrier welded all the way round on your QH set or spot welded like the ATP's? ???
:-X :-X
Wtf.???
All wishbones are two halves, top and bottom, these are spot welded together.
The bush mountings are seam welded... The difference is that some will only be welded at the load points on the rear bush and some are welded around the entire circumference of the rear bush...
Even genuine bones aren't guaranteed to be completely welded.
The current crop of Febi bones look to be continuously welded. But I have had two wishbones bought at the same time from the same supplier be one of each, so don't rely on that detail being a given...
Sir Tig, define a bad experience... If you're disappointed about their lifespan then you need to allow for the fact that they won't last as long as genuine bushes. 20K is about their limit. Their price makes them practically a service item anyway.
If your issue is with ATP then elaborate. I for one won't be using Allgerman again.
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Wtf.???
Is that necessary? >:(
All wishbones are two halves, top and bottom, these are spot welded together.
The bush mountings are seam welded... The difference is that some will only be welded at the load points on the rear bush and some are welded around the entire circumference of the rear bush...
Even genuine bones aren't guaranteed to be completely welded.
The current crop of Febi bones look to be continuously welded. But I have had two wishbones bought at the same time from the same supplier be one of each, so don't rely on that detail being a given...
I'm talking about the rear bush carrier, not the wishbone itself. Some are welded in with a continuous seam all round and some like those ATP supply are welded at 3 or 4 points which I described as 'spot welded'. I was being a bit sarky, but for those who took that literally 'non continuous weld' is probably a better description. Obviously the latter cannot be as strong as the former. You of all people should understand this. ::)
Sir Tig, define a bad experience... If you're disappointed about their lifespan then you need to allow for the fact that they won't last as long as genuine bushes. 20K is about their limit. Their price makes them practically a service item anyway.
If your issue is with ATP then elaborate. I for one won't be using Allgerman again.
I fitted a set of ATP wishbones as per the OOF guide. The front bushes failed at about 8000 miles/9 months. So I cut them out and fitted poly bushes, which improved the handling but it still wasn't right and so I decided that there was too much play in the rear bushes. I bought a pair of GM bushes with the intention of fitting them to the ATP wishbones, but when I removed them found that the 'non continuous' welds on the rear bush carrier had started to crack. I lost confidence in them and refitted the set of £40 ebay wishbones (with the polys, GM rear bushes and new balljoints) that the ATP's replaced. ::)
I'm aware that many members here have had nothing but good experiences with ATP wishbones, unfortunately I didn't and so don't share your love-in with ATP of Der Vaterland. You obviously didn't have a good experience with All German, but I don't think anyone has jumped down your throat when you have shared your experience. ::)
Do you have shares in ATP, because you promote them like you depend on the Divi's! ;D ;D ;D
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Ohhhhh......all this 'fixing' of things sounds like hard work. Glad none of my cars ever need 'fixing'. :)
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Ohhhhh......all this 'fixing' of things sounds like hard work. Glad none of my cars ever need 'fixing'. :)
You don't own them long enough ;D
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Both of mine need lots of fixing but I don't have the time, energy or money to fix them, so a bit of bodging here & there keeps them just about mobile. ;D
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Ohhhhh......all this 'fixing' of things sounds like hard work. Glad none of my cars ever need 'fixing'. :)
You don't own them long enough ;D
Yep. That's the trick. :)
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Personally I use Lemforders from AGP and fit Poly fronts from new (well swap them out from the last set). I do quite a high annual mileage so cannot really live with the 20K lifespan talked about on here of other wishbone brands as I'd be changing them at least twice a year which I don't think is acceptable. As it is I change them between 12 - 18 months depending on their condition.
I've got a stash of old stock, new, genuine GM rear bushes but haven't bothered refurbishing any of the wishbones I've removed yet as I'd like to examine them more closely before starting that process.
Just my opinion of course and while I appreciate the costs I pay along with the lifespan means it costs overall more money than other solutions, I am happier to do this.
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Lol re the divs... I wish, but no.
The Wtf was aimed at the drama Queen oop narf.
You could probably have gotten somewhere sending those wishbones back, but is the hassle worth it for the cost? Probably not... Hence the caveat re life expectancy.
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Martin, yep 3 years mate. And 22k miles so right around what al said to expect.
Well, shop was quiet so got them on. That rear bolt is a fcking pain in the arse! But already feel a tighter front end and no wandering so the diagnosis was good. Thanks for all the recommendations. I may have to do them next year or 3 years. But at that price no dramas :y
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Oh and gave me a good chance to inspect everything. Gonna need some pads and rotors (lol) soon. Does it ever end?!?!
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Oh and gave me a good chance to inspect everything. Gonna need some pads and rotors (lol) soon. Does it ever end?!?!
Griffin will like that word , you been watching too much ericthecarguy ;D
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Wtf.???
Is that necessary? >:(
All wishbones are two halves, top and bottom, these are spot welded together.
The bush mountings are seam welded... The difference is that some will only be welded at the load points on the rear bush and some are welded around the entire circumference of the rear bush...
Even genuine bones aren't guaranteed to be completely welded.
The current crop of Febi bones look to be continuously welded. But I have had two wishbones bought at the same time from the same supplier be one of each, so don't rely on that detail being a given...
I'm talking about the rear bush carrier, not the wishbone itself. Some are welded in with a continuous seam all round and some like those ATP supply are welded at 3 or 4 points which I described as 'spot welded'. I was being a bit sarky, but for those who took that literally 'non continuous weld' is probably a better description. Obviously the latter cannot be as strong as the former. You of all people should understand this. ::)
Sir Tig, define a bad experience... If you're disappointed about their lifespan then you need to allow for the fact that they won't last as long as genuine bushes. 20K is about their limit. Their price makes them practically a service item anyway.
If your issue is with ATP then elaborate. I for one won't be using Allgerman again.
I fitted a set of ATP wishbones as per the OOF guide. The front bushes failed at about 8000 miles/9 months. So I cut them out and fitted poly bushes, which improved the handling but it still wasn't right and so I decided that there was too much play in the rear bushes. I bought a pair of GM bushes with the intention of fitting them to the ATP wishbones, but when I removed them found that the 'non continuous' welds on the rear bush carrier had started to crack. I lost confidence in them and refitted the set of £40 ebay wishbones (with the polys, GM rear bushes and new balljoints) that the ATP's replaced. ::)
I'm aware that many members here have had nothing but good experiences with ATP wishbones, unfortunately I didn't and so don't share your love-in with ATP of Der Vaterland. You obviously didn't have a good experience with All German, but I don't think anyone has jumped down your throat when you have shared your experience. ::)
Do you have shares in ATP, because you promote them like you depend on the Divi's! ;D ;D ;D
Nail on head mate - you're dealing with a gixer clone ;D ;D ;D
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(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k536/tidla1/DSC_0006_zps5wjh30zy.jpg)
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k536/tidla1/DSC_0008_zps7h5gorhp.jpg)
Fitted two new bushes from Gm today which has fixed the dive to one side on braking.
The ones which came out were only 7k miles old (First line crap).
Wheel alignment altered by a whole 12 deg.
Im guessing that as the ball joints are riveted these are the original arms?
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Lol re the divs... I wish, but no.
The Wtf was aimed at the drama Queen oop narf.
You could probably have gotten somewhere sending those wishbones back, but is the hassle worth it for the cost? Probably not... Hence the caveat re life expectancy.
As I'd modified them I expect they'd have told me to Verpiss dich, if I'd have been daft enough to pack them up and spend £20 odd sending them back to Der Vaterland! ;) ;D
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All wishbones have riveted balljoints (unless already had a balljoint replaced).
Personally, I go down the refurbed GM route, with poly fronts. Lemforder aside*, of all the pattern ones I've seen, I've yet to see one I would fit to mine.
* There are a lot of fakes around, every bit as nasty as the cheap shite. Euroshiteparts seem to have a bucketload of them.
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Ive got Lemforders on the MV6, theyre decent enough. From AGP, so not fake.
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Not quite out of the woods with me wishbones yet. Grrrrrrrr
Doing my brakes today I noticed the ball joint dust cover split. It was a bit of a wrestle getting it back in and it was definitely me that did it (twot).
I didn't have time to replace the dust boot (we keep universal dust covers at the 'shop). I then remembered that I've never actually replaced a ball joint dust boot. How does one achieve this. TIA :)
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Carefully... All to easy to skewer the new boot when refitting the spring clip...
Scratches head whilst wondering if a long thin cable tie is suitable for this :-\
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I didn't have time to replace the dust boot (we keep universal dust covers at the 'shop). I then remembered that I've never actually replaced a ball joint dust boot. How does one achieve this. TIA :)
Pull the old one off, check that the joint is greased, slip the new cover in place and secure it with whatever method is required: the original retainer, cable tie, lock wire, glue,string or blind faith. Try not to rely on the last two.
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Easier i found most times just to change the joint as if its been split for an unknown period its probably worn out anyway. However, if its a tiny nick and i have some quality glue to hand..
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Thanks guys. Tidla, this was the new dust cover of new wishbone that I ripped :-[ so brand new ball joints at least
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Webby, I did exactly the same myself, after refurbishing my wishbones (you remember all I did to mine? polys, GM balljoints, brand new GM rear bushes, coats of Rustbuster 121 epoxy and stone chip paint, to - somehow - rip the brand new boot. I'll say fitting a new boot is a damn sight easier with the thing sitting in your lap, as you can angle/manoeuvre it as you like, but took 15 mins in the end. Which isn't bad, all things considered.
Watch the spring clip, as said, as this can easily pierce the boot, but just being careful will stop this. I seem to think I popped the spring clip on the boot, then slid onto the wishbone, then using a couple of suitable pliers/whatever to lever the clip open and push down, simultaneously. You sort of need three hands, but when it finally goes on you think 'ooh, that was dead easy, why'd it take so long?' ooh, red grease helps things along, too.
Have a sneaking suspicion that drop links boots are the exact same size... might have dreamt that, though. :y
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cheers dbg. all done now. :y
new boot came with a large 'o' ring. new boot on. o ring on. done in 3 mins flat :y
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Remind me to invite you round next time I get a split boot. :y Hell, I might even stick a screwdriver in one deliberately! :D ;D
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Remind me to invite you round next time I get a split boot. :y Hell, I might even stick a screwdriver in one deliberately! :D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
when I say ''3 mins flat'' that's just to put the new boot on! the undoing of the pinch bolt took at least 5 hours ;D
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:D :D
Probably because a bear like you used his bare hands and teeth. You're allowed to use a ratchet and sockets, doesn't make you any less manly :y