Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 28 April 2016, 19:27:53
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Evening guys.
So. I got the omega on the alignment rack a little while ago due to the car wandering. It turns out the front and rear toe angles were out.
I adjusted the front but rear track rods were seized solid. I'm shortly going to be buying new ones so that will!be all sorted.
However on the motorway the car is definitely improved. But it still feels a touch "wandery". Nowhere near as bad as before. However is it just cos the rear toe is out causing it?
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Evening guys.
So. I got the omega on the alignment rack a little while ago due to the car wandering. It turns out the front and rear toe angles were out.
I adjusted the front but rear track rods were seized solid. I'm shortly going to be buying new ones so that will!be all sorted.
However on the motorway the car is definitely improved. But it still feels a touch "wandery". Nowhere near as bad as before. However is it just cos the rear toe is out causing it?
Tyre pressures to high.,
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Evening guys.
So. I got the omega on the alignment rack a little while ago due to the car wandering. It turns out the front and rear toe angles were out.
I adjusted the front but rear track rods were seized solid. I'm shortly going to be buying new ones so that will!be all sorted.
However on the motorway the car is definitely improved. But it still feels a touch "wandery". Nowhere near as bad as before. However is it just cos the rear toe is out causing it?
Tyre pressures to high.,
No mate. Tyre pressures set yesterday to spec. Wandering experienced today :y
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Any uneven tyre wear?
I had an osf inner edge wear that caused me to correct the steering every few minutes
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Any uneven tyre wear?
I had an osf inner edge wear that caused me to correct the steering every few minutes
No mate. Tyres are new this year (all 4). No wear as yet. And no oddities.
Also new wishbones as of this year too.
It must be the rear toe being out surely?
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Are the Shock absorbers OK as that can cause wandering especially on uneven/potholed roads.
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Yes mate all shocks good.
The fact that the toe is out, albeit at the back, does that not scream wandering?
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Could also be a shit road surface :D
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Could also be the driver :D
Fixed that for you lol
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For decades I have suffered wandering and twitchy steering after changing track rods. Garages adjusted the tracking with optical gear which improved the steering, but left the steering wheel off centre on running straight ahead.
I devised my method of front wheel alignment about 10 years ago. It's not rocket science, just common sense, on every occasion works first time, and results in a car running straight and true with steering wheel centred, no wander, no twitch. I commend it to the forum.
On publication here it was promptly condemned by Chris and Al, who feared damage to wishbones. In 10 years, running six Omegas, I have suffered no wishbone damage. Supported with wood on axle stands right at the outer end of the wishbones, they ain't stressed.
In the unlikely event of rear wheel toe being out it would be spotted at the same time, and could be corrected, if the adjusters would move.
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The issue we found on adjusting the geometry on my old girl - which I was in the garage watching him do it, nattering - was upon altering the rear track rods, how little change in the camber was made. Adjusting the rear track rods from all the way one way, to all the way the other accounted for something like 0.2 change in camber only.
I have a ridiculous 3.2 or thereabouts rear camber, so all we could do was make the toe correct. But rear camber is still miles out. No adjustment of the track rods alters it by a meaningful amount.
Have to say she feels fine to drive. With the wandering feeling you're experiencing, there is the servotronic steering which gives a 'dead zone' in straight ahead position, this is as far as I'm aware designed that way. Could it simply be this you're experiencing? :-\
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Thanks for the input terry and dbg.
I'm in the fortunate position that my camber front and rear is bang on. Therefore when I get my new track rods I should be able to adjust the toe and not alter the camber too much. Obviously the opposite to what you need, dbg.
Maybe a better way of putting it would be..... What symptoms other than tyre scrub would rear toe being out cause? If one if the answers is wandering then I know I just need to track it up and touch wood all should be good. If it's not then I need to look elsewhere :y
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When you say front camber is bang on........what is bang on?
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Well, ok, when I say bang on I mean in the green. But when I did the alignment my only concern for that day was doing the toe.
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And Mr The Bear, the rear camber is the issue I mention above ie: you alter the toe n rear camber simultaneously; as one alters, so does the other. As has been said elsewhere, the rear camber is a compromise.When I got mine done, best we decided was at least have the rear toe spot on, to the minute, rather than have the toe wildly out, in a futile attempt to make the rear camber right.
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Well, ok, when I say bang on I mean in the green. But when I did the alignment my only concern for that day was doing the toe.
Oh young Mr Bear, you have fallen into the default spanner twirler trap of 'in the green'.
Set the front to bang on -1.10.....
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:-[ :-[ :-[
Ok, I'll be giving myself 100 lashes later on.
For now however...
I'll get the toe set to the above spec.
Dbg when I mentioned about my rear toe, I meant that the camber was in the green and the rear toe was in the red. If like you say the camber doesn't adjust that much then I'll get the toe up to spec and the camber shouldn't have moved much. But obviously I'll verify that with das Hoffman :y
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well worth getting the toe bang on, but as has been said, it is very much a compromise. I really don't know why mine should be so far out, the rear axle camber looks like a touring car! no idea if something like a bent rear subframe or something would affect it. I have some spare wishbones which'll be going on in the summer, so may report back with more news regarding geometry setting changes for you :)
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What make tyres are on it? :-\ :y
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Could also be a shit road surface :D
You could be right there I find my estate wanders on bad roads but I also put that down to the budget tyres the seller put on it.
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Thanks for the input guys.
I currently have BCT S600's on at the moment. But I am changing them in next couple of months cos they're unacceptably noisy. Going to get some Rainsports 3's 👍
As for the way forward I need rear pads so I'm nipping in on my day off to do my brakes and get the toe set up to marks spec and I'll see how it drives after that
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Head meet wall...
Set it as follows...
Front:
Camber 1 degree 10 minutes.
Toe 0 degrees 5 minutes in.
Rear:
Camber and Toe as best you can to middle of green, toe ideally will be 0 degrees 6 minutes in, with about 2 degrees, 45 minutes camber. This will be a compromise as each vehicle varies and one adjustment does both... However the rear thrust angle MUST BE ZERO... Not so much as a minute more or less :y
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Thanks Taxi :-)
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Camber affects how the car reacts on anything other than a racetrack smooth tarmac, even in a straight line.
However, assuming everything not worn, a wander that is "vague", rather than a definite pull, is likely to be tyres. A definite pull in one direction on a flat road is likely to be thrust angle, poor toe, or castor. Front toe shouldn't cause a pull, though with a steering box, will cause strange effects when turning.
Note the common factor is tyres, so if you've ruled out worn components, and learn to use that machine properly - which you clearly have some way to go, as its not about just setting it green (or even to a specific set of values) - then you have to look at getting a tyre suitable for an Omega.
Now chrisgixer did try a thread some time back to find tyres that "worked" on Omegas, with his hypersensitivity to tramlining, it was biased around tyres that do go straight - the sort of tyre you could be hacking down the motorway in, and look in rear view mirror for a few seconds, without fear of changing lanes.
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Camber affects how the car reacts on anything other than a racetrack smooth tarmac, even in a straight line.
However, assuming everything not worn, a wander that is "vague", rather than a definite pull, is likely to be tyres. A definite pull in one direction on a flat road is likely to be thrust angle, poor toe, or castor. Front toe shouldn't cause a pull, though with a steering box, will cause strange effects when turning.
Note the common factor is tyres, so if you've ruled out worn components, and learn to use that machine properly - which you clearly have some way to go, as its not about just setting it green (or even to a specific set of values) - then you have to look at getting a tyre suitable for an Omega.
Now chrisgixer did try a thread some time back to find tyres that "worked" on Omegas, with his hypersensitivity to tramlining, it was biased around tyres that do go straight - the sort of tyre you could be hacking down the motorway in, and look in rear view mirror for a few seconds, without fear of changing lanes.
Not wishing to be argumentative but how is it that toe being out can't cause a pull? Every car that comes in where owner complains of wandering it's always toe. Always.
I also did mention that I've only just learned how to use the machine :y
Finally can you explain how it's any more complicated than setting values? The spec is set up through the computer. And I'm aware that OOF recommend some slightly tweaked settings given to us by WIM which I believe take in to consideration component wear etc.
Take on board all the info :y
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If the front toe is out one side, and taking all other forces out of the equation for simplicity, that toe will simply balance to both sides, meaning toe will be the same on both sides. Admittedly, the steering wheel will be off cock, but that will not cause a pull.
Don't confuse a pull (a definite force to want to steer slightly one way) with a wander (vagueness causing it not to want to go in a straight line). For front toe to cause wander, it would have to be so far out that there would be wear complaints. Its component wear and shit tyres that are usually to blame.
As to settings, its not that simple. Our aging cars all have different stages of suspension/steering wear, and we all have different driving styles. Ride height on many cars, including Omegas, affects geometry - which is why WIM developed a baseline to work from, taking into account our ageing cars. And from that, each car is unique - I know one of mine has a lot more castor dialled in than the other in order to keep it straight on normal roads.
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OK fair comments tb, :y
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Not bumping. But genuine question...
I think I may attempt the front camber adjustment using our places Hoffman. Not a big deal to some of you guys I'm sure but it seems a ball ache to me.
Anyways I figure it wil help with learning.
So this was the way I was going to do it, if one of you guys can say yay or nay to my ideas....
Loosen both strut bolts prior to it going on the alignment rack (figure I'll have a lot more room if they're on super tight (I doubt they will be though)
Tighten back up but not tight so I can loosen them easy
Drive straight on to the alignment ramp
Set up aligner
Re-loosen strut bolts, get someone to push in / pull back on the road wheel
Get him to hold that position when at 1"10 minutes. Tighten strut bolts
Readjust toe as I presume adjusting camber will alter toe as well
Get off alignment rack, remove wheels and torque strut bolts to spec in their new adjusted positions
Sound like a plan? As said I've never adjusted front camber on any car so just making sure I got the procedure down.
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Not bumping. But genuine question...
I think I may attempt the front camber adjustment using our places Hoffman. Not a big deal to some of you guys I'm sure but it seems a ball ache to me.
Anyways I figure it wil help with learning.
So this was the way I was going to do it, if one of you guys can say yay or nay to my ideas....
Loosen both strut bolts prior to it going on the alignment rack (figure I'll have a lot more room if they're on super tight (I doubt they will be though)
Tighten back up but not tight so I can loosen them easy
Drive straight on to the alignment ramp
Set up aligner
Re-loosen strut bolts, get someone to push in / pull back on the road wheel
Get him to hold that position when at 1"10 minutes. Tighten strut bolts
Readjust toe as I presume adjusting camber will alter toe as well
Get off alignment rack, remove wheels and torque strut bolts to spec in their new adjusted positions
Sound like a plan? As said I've never adjusted front camber on any car so just making sure I got the procedure down.
Anyone???
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That all works, but bolts can be torqued with the wheels on and car on ramp :y
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That all works, but bolts can be torqued with the wheels on and car on ramp :y
And with the gear still attached and working. I do camber alignment with a digital angle gauge and a jack handle, with the car lowered onto some old wheels. That's probably 10 minutes work, most of which is crawling under the car.
Whatever else you might have read, this is a simple job that requires basic spanner skills and some equipment to read the figures. You have both, so stop overthinking it and get it done. What I would suggest is that you watch how each of the readings change as you make the adjustments.
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Lol I do overthink it. But thanks. I'll just do it :y