Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Ulap31 on 03 May 2016, 18:50:59
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Ok after many months of the car not running decided to check engine compression myself.
Results so far are
number 1 cylinder 113 psi,
number 3 cylinder 110,
number 5 cylinder 160 psi.
Wow one side done I was told compression was fine, annoyed the fact I've changed lots of parts that didn't need to.
Have Mayo in oil filler which isn't going away.
Going to try 2,4,6 compression now will post soon
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Re mayo in the oil filler...
Use decent, ie not Castrol, preferably GM oil and use the car for decent, ie more than 40 miles, runs. :y
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Ok compression for bank 2 as follows
Cylinder 2 120 psi
Cylinder 4 100 psi
Cylinder 6 190 psi
Don't see what changing the engine oil will help compression readings
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Ok compression for bank 2 as follows
Cylinder 2 120 psi
Cylinder 4 100 psi
Cylinder 6 190 psi
Don't see what changing the engine oil will help compression readings
It won't... If you read my post it starts Re mayo in oil filler ::)
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I've also realised I'm losing water.
Originally thought it was from the pipe that connects thermostat to top rubber pipe as changed thermostat a few months ago but am now sure that after fitting the 2 genuine rubber seals that's sorted that problem.
Am I looking at a head gasket change if so
What part numbers do I need for all the various gaskets, seals etc
Have new timing belt and water pump already fitted 3000 miles ago,
Also have locking kit
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Water could be leaking from any where, including Hbv, heater matrix, radiator, oil cooler, thermostat, radiator thermoswitches and any of the coolant hoses...
3.2 headgasket failure is almost unheard of...
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Results so far are
number 1 cylinder 113 psi,
number 3 cylinder 110,
number 5 cylinder 160 psi.
Cylinder 2 120 psi
Cylinder 4 100 psi
Cylinder 6 190 psi
did you test it when warm? for the 3.2 the compression should be in the range 161-202 psi. If cold probably take off 15psi maybe more so that's 146-187. max 15psi difference between cylinders. harris can tell you all night about wet leaks and where they come from ;) but your figures, coolant loss and the persistent mayo look like a leaking head gasket even though such a thing 'never happens on v6s' . could be something else but those are not good figures. what mileage is it?
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Mileage on the car is 105285 miles
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Results so far are
number 1 cylinder 113 psi,
number 3 cylinder 110,
number 5 cylinder 160 psi.
Cylinder 2 120 psi
Cylinder 4 100 psi
Cylinder 6 190 psi
did you test it when warm? for the 3.2 the compression should be in the range 161-202 psi. If cold probably take off 15psi maybe more so that's 146-187. max 15psi difference between cylinders. harris can tell you all night about wet leaks and where they come from ;) but your figures, coolant loss and the persistent mayo look like a leaking head gasket even though such a thing 'never happens on v6s' . could be something else but those are not good figures. what mileage is it?
Bit of an understatement there - those figures are crap. At best you have failed head gaskets (both banks), or all/any of the other culprits eg broken/worn piston rings, knackered valves, worn/damaged bores etc, on both banks. Despite relatively "low" mileage, fraid its nackered.
Best suggestion is to bin it and fit a replacement engine.
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yeah i was trying to break it to him gently ;).
does it put out steam from the exhaust when hot?
trying to stay positive, it could all be just the head gaskets, those other nasties would account for low compression but none for coolant loss and mayo.
cylinder 6 is nice :)
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Ignoring the fact that the layout of the oil and coolant passages makes it physically impossible for the two to mix :-X
Sure it was MarkDTM that explained why this was the case...
Head gasket failure on these only results in loss of coolant from the rear outer corner of the head.
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Incidentally bodged repair following cambelt issues would cause similar compression variations, and mayo on the dipstick would be more meaningful...
Your engine has issues, not one of which is headgasket related... More chance of Leicester beating Barca in next year's champions league ::)
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The car does have steam from exhaust from cold for about 20 minutes of driving, fans were on constantly once warmed up, no signs of oil in expansion vessel.
I'm thinking I might strip it down,
I did this to my old 2.5 manual, new valve seals head gaskets etc and never had a problem after that.
Worst case engine is knackered, problem will be finding a quality replacement engine?????
Would rather not replace as I want to keep it original as I can.
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Ignoring the fact that the layout of the oil and coolant passages makes it physically impossible for the two to mix :-X
Sure it was MarkDTM that explained why this was the case...
so its physically impossible for coolant if in the combustion cylinders to get into the oil? ??? and on a 105K engine? ??? I think a dipstick needs checking here ;).
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Ignoring the fact that the layout of the oil and coolant passages makes it physically impossible for the two to mix :-X
Sure it was MarkDTM that explained why this was the case...
so its physically impossible for coolant if in the combustion cylinders to get into the oil? ??? and on a 105K engine? ??? I think a dipstick needs checking here ;).
On an Omega v6, yes. Speak to Mark.
Argumentative arse.
And 105k is nothing for a 3.2... 280k is perfectly achievable ;)
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(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Headinfocoloured.jpg)
(Pinched from MarkDTM)
Blue - Water
Red - High Pressure?
Brow - Oil Return
The fire rings always remain in-tact...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/thejudderman/Image066.jpg)
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Irrelevant as this is a 3.2 so multi layer steel gaskets.
Compression check question......how did you maintain WOT during cranking?
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Did the test on bank 1 first after I'd let the engine get to hot temperature
Then for bank 2 I let it run again to get temperature back up
Took the fuse out for the fuel pump & disconnected the plugs to the coil packs.
No blue smoke whatsoever on startup or when driving and it goes pretty good on a run.
Fuel consumption is pretty poor though
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Does anyone know of a single example of head gasket failure on a 2.6 or 3.2 ? Ive never heard of one.
I suppose this could be the first. :-\
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I think what I'll do is carefully strip this down and take photos and get everyone's input before I buy anything
These are pretty bullet proof gaskets but
got a quote from Vauxhall for new gaskets for heads and camshaft cover gaskets , valve seals manifold gaskets and camshaft seals and wait for it the price is
£440 wtf ???????????
That's just extortionate
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Pays to shop around...
http://m.ebay.com/itm/99-01-FITS-CADILLAC-CATERA-3-0-VICTOR-REINZ-HEAD-GASKET-SET-BOLTS-/262310322122?hash=item3d12e9dfca:g:VbcAAOSwuAVW0inU :y
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I got Elring stuff for mine. Cost nowhere near that :y
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Won't be buying anything till its stripped down
Thanks to u all for the part references as I don't like using non original parts
How do I post pictures once I'm at that point
Ps I've done approx 15000 miles since I bought it and the oil has never needed topping up if this helps.
Not sure of previous history as bought it with no history, maybe it was already having problems and I was unlucky
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First port of call before getting stuck in could be to check th ex cambelt timing... I suspect that you'll either find it out, or evidence of previous buggery :-\
Crate engine from VX is around £1,800
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First port of call before getting stuck in could be to check th ex cambelt timing... I suspect that you'll either find it out, or evidence of previous buggery :-\
Crate engine from VX is around £1,800
Can you still buy them from VX then?.. (new old stock presumably) ..Wonder if you could get the engine on Trade Club, Not a bad idea if you have a good shell but a duff engine if you wanted to keep if for awhile..
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That price is good considering the gaskets cost nearly a quarter of that.
Will strip it down to the cams, what am I looking for if there's something a miss.
Would that cause the Mayo, water loss and white smoke
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I think what I'll do is carefully strip this down and take photos and get everyone's input before I buy anything
These are pretty bullet proof gaskets but
got a quote from Vauxhall for new gaskets for heads and camshaft cover gaskets , valve seals manifold gaskets and camshaft seals and wait for it the price is
£440 wtf ??? ??? ??? ??
That's just extortionate
Once again, going to Vauxhall for this sort of stuff is just mental. An Elring Head set, which includes all off that is about 80 quid. You will need head bolts as well, which is another £25.
From your symptoms, especially the white smoke and compression issues I agree you probably have a failed head gasket. Just because it is rare doesn't mean it's impossible.
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Irrelevant as this is a 3.2 so multi layer steel gaskets.
Compression check question......how did you maintain WOT during cranking?
What he said ^.
You can't hold the throttle open on a DBW car without using a Tech 2, so the compression test might not have given you a true picture of what's going on.
Try it again following the same steps, but unbolt the throttle body from the front of the plenum first. (or use a tech 2 to enable compression testing mode). :y
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There I have a problem, can't get tech 2 could someone recommend a reasonable one.
Why can't turning the engine over produce compression as that side of things are mechanical & not electrical ?????
Sorry for asking but I like to understand the working of all the different parts.
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There I have a problem, can't get tech 2 could someone recommend a reasonable one.
Why can't turning the engine over produce compression as that side of things are mechanical & not electrical ?????
Sorry for asking but I like to understand the working of all the different parts.
To get a true compression test the throttle plates MUST be fully open .. known as WOT ... Wide Open Throttle .
The 3.2 and 2.6 engines have drive by wire throttles so you cannot physically hold the throttle butterflies open as they are electronically controled, so you don't get a true reading.
As previously said .. tech 2 to "tell" the throttles to go fully open, or remove the throttle bodies to achieve the same result.
HTH :)
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Just done my 2.5 complete seal kit was only £60 and £20 for the bolts, all Elring and good quality :y
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so its physically impossible for coolant if in the combustion cylinders to get into the oil? ??? and on a 105K engine? ??? I think a dipstick needs checking here ;).
On an Omega v6, yes. Speak to Mark.
Argumentative arse.
And 105k is nothing for a 3.2... 280k is perfectly achievable ;)
i may be an argumentative arse but you sir are a moron. headgasket failure = leak in the gasket which lies between the combustion cylinder and the water cooling. hence over heating, hence water sucked into and/or leaking into the combustion cylinder = water leaks past rings into crankcase and/or steam is blown past rings into crankcase where there is .....OIL.
this is such basic engine mechanics i can only conclude you must be a moron. you do have previous....
at a mileage of 105k the rings will obvioulsy let more blow by of steam and leakage of water than a lower mileage.
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I presume that your reference is suggested upon my having an IQ of between 50 and 70, and I further suggest that you credit me with having the lower number...
Unfortunately I have to further disappoint you. Your estimation is approximately 85 short... ;D
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perhaps if you concentrated on the subject instead of calling people names when you get something simple wrong i would credit you with a higher iq.
why don't you now just admit that water in the oil is a common (and logically obvious) symptom of a leaking head gasket. or do you just want to go on calling names?
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Ok for the benefit of the thread, rather than being an objectionable knob (Migmog) just because I posted my thoughts :-X
Symptoms thus far:
Some dubious compression readings. Mark and Kevins questions wrt WOT as yet unanswered...
Some persistent mayo in the filler cap. Again unanswered questions wrt oil brand and journey length and presence of water on dipstick.
Steam from exhaust until fully warmed up. Not unusual given the inevitable moisture content in air and the fact that water is a by product of burning petroleum products... And again with no mention of journey length.
Crap fuel economy whilst otherwise running fine. It's a 3.2, probably an auto to boot. Be lucky to get much over 250-280 miles from a tank, especially as I suspect from the steam and mayo symptoms that the car doesn't do many decent length runs and is never warmed up... The poor economy is only exacerbated by ecu controlled fuel enrichment when cold.
Coolant loss. No mention of volume being lost, or over what time period... There are several items before headgasket in the list of things to check. Any water on the plugs if left over night? Any significant pressure on the top hose? Pressure test the system and rule out the usual suspects.
Ulap, answer the above points and consider the following...
Have the fans been tested as per the guide? If not why not and if so, any outstanding faults identified and fixed?
Coolant system pressure tested for leaks, assuming not obvious, and again any identified faults fixed?
Compression test redone following Mark and Kevins advice re unbolting the throttle body?
Oil changed for GM and the car taken for a decent run of say 50 miles.
If having done ALL of that lot, it still uses coolant and produces mayo, then I might conceded that you need to pull the heads off to investigate further. But as it stands, I think you are talking yourself into changing the head gaskets/heads for the sake of it, rather than because you actually need to. :y
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What others have said.
Cambelt timing check using the tools, compression check with throttle body removed. go from there.
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I should add that my statement was always that its not possible for oil to get into the water when the head gasket fails :y (as backup to the usual garage miss diagnosis of head gasket failure when its oil cooler)
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May I timidly observe that HG failure on a GM V6 is very rare, to have 2 head gaskets fail at the same time is beyond belief. Also cylinders 1,2,3 and 4 being low on compression, with 5 and 6 being better, suggests valve trouble caused by timing belt problems.
Not that it matters, whether it be bent valves, HG failure or worse, it means cam belt off and heads off to diagnose and rectify, all of which may cost more than a replacement similar car. There is nothing to lose by removing cam belt cover and checking valve timing though.
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I would suggest that before any major strip down is started that the compression test should be re-visited using one of the two methods to achieve WOT.Depending on results then further investigation can be undertaken as deemed necessary.Mayo on oil filler cap not a major concern at this stage as it's quite a common occurrence on V6s.
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Ok have checked dipstick only oil on this. Will compression test the weekend with throttle bodies removed.
Can check timing again on Saturday but just have feeling that head gaskets could be at fault once again there's no blue smoke from exhaust no oil in any water.
Have to part strip it down any way
Water loss was down 1 inch from the mark after about 70 miles
Know everyone has said about pressure test, have had a good look at hoses, hbv etc and see no signs of water leaks anywhere including from matrix
I'm not sure off previous history but this engine and the bay is immaculate and would say it's been driven by a lady, lots of telltale marks around back door handle and on instrument panel
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Some water leaks ( oil cooler plate for example) don't even reach the floor but boil off leaving only a trace of (pink stain if you have that colour coolant) around the affected area which can only be seen once you have the plenium and other bits stripped off.
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One thought I'm having could water coolant or lack of it have caused problems.
Trying to think back to when I bought it and the water in expansion looked quite clear.
If someone had been running it without enough coolant in it could that cause overheating, or damage to gaskets, pipes etc, this is just a thought bearing in mind.
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I should add that my statement was always that its not possible for oil to get into the water when the head gasket fails :y (as backup to the usual garage miss diagnosis of head gasket failure when its oil cooler)
I can believe that. but harris is on about mayo (i.e. water in the oil not oil in the water) not being a symptom of hg failure (or 'not being possible')
Water getting into the oil is not specific or otherwise to the omega - most cars have cylinders, pistons, piston rings and oil in the sump. mayo doesn't mean the hg is blown it could just be condensation into the oil but it is one symptom of a hg failure
this isn't rocket science it is commonly known. hg failures are rare on omega Vs so maybe members have never come across it but just use google, eg:
"What are the symptoms of a Blown Head Gasket? As coolant is pulled into the combustion chamber it will cause your engine coolant level to drop. This can cause a low coolant light and overheating if the cooling system on your vehicle is not continually topped off. Also, once your engine is turned off the coolant still left in the engine cylinder will seep past your piston rings into your engine oil. Coolant mixed with oil will make a white milky substance. You may see this on your engine oil dip stick or on a ring around your oil cap."
http://gobdp.com/blog/what-are-the-symptoms-of-a-blown-head-gasket/ (http://gobdp.com/blog/what-are-the-symptoms-of-a-blown-head-gasket/) (or many other links just look for yourselves)
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One thought I'm having could water coolant or lack of it have caused problems.
Trying to think back to when I bought it and the water in expansion looked quite clear.
If someone had been running it without enough coolant in it could that cause overheating, or damage to gaskets, pipes etc, this is just a thought bearing in mind.
generally if an engine overheats badly it will blow headgaskets. maybe not often on a v6 but it could blow both gaskets. i once went to look at a v6 omega for sale and it had an unusual amount of steam coming out the exhaust even when warmed up compared to my mig which i turned up in. and a lot of mayo in the cap. i though it had a head gasket weep at best and walked away.
while you're re-doing compression tests there are other tests you can do at the same time eg pour small amount of oil say 25 ml in the cylinder and repeat test (a 'wet' test). if the compression improves it is likely the rings that are worn. if it doesn't it is the valves or hg. don't do it a lot not good for the cats.
also low readings on 2 adjacent cylinders is one symptom of a hg leak.
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All the bitching and arguing doesn't help the OP. There is considerable knowledge and experience here and that experience shows that the later V6 engine rarely suffers HG Failure - In all the time I've been a member here (a good few years ;)) I think there has only been 1, possibly 2, confirmed cases. Both of these were caused by poor coolant maintenance and neither showed all of the typical HG failure symptoms as found on Google.
Ok have checked dipstick only oil on this. Will compression test the weekend with throttle bodies removed.
Can check timing again on Saturday but just have feeling that head gaskets could be at fault once again there's no blue smoke from exhaust no oil in any water.
Have to part strip it down any way
Water loss was down 1 inch from the mark after about 70 miles
Know everyone has said about pressure test, have had a good look at hoses, hbv etc and see no signs of water leaks anywhere including from matrix
I'm not sure off previous history but this engine and the bay is immaculate and would say it's been driven by a lady, lots of telltale marks around back door handle and on instrument panel
Not a single one of your symptoms would lead me to removing the heads on this car. Sorry, but you have a couple of symptoms that might be HG failure but too many other possibilities to investigate first.
As said, a later V6 HG failure is incredibly rare - to have both banks fail seems to be too much of a coincidence to me.
Losing an inch of water in 70 miles doesn't point to HG. That's quite a small weep and would easily evaporate off of a hot engine and go unnoticed... I had a similar leak on my 3.0 and eventually tracked it down to a weep from the oil cooler cover plate.
Mayo in the oil is a well known and well documented problem - Do you do predominantly short journeys? What oil are you using? Looking through your historic posts it seems you were only doing 5 miles or so per journey.
Steam (or cold smoke) is very common - Both of mine do it until warm. As said, H2O is a byproduct of combustion.
Did you ever resolve the misfire issues? tge misfire could be what is giving the over fuelling impression.
Back to basic mechanics I'm afraid
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25ml of oil in the pot is much to much, the combustion chambers are not much more than this, 1ml tops would be the suggestion :y
The usual culprits I find on the later DBW V6 for coolant leaks relating to the engine itself (excluding ancillaries such as split rad or failed bypass valve which are far more obvious) is the water pump and the oil cooler to block joint (the latter being the most common for some reason!).
Before digging to deep the compression test needs re-visiting :y
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As the weather been wonderful and I was home early, I had time to redo compression test.
Results are with hot engine and about 2 mg oil in cylinder 1 and throttle bodies removed
Cylinder 1 140 psi
Cylinder 3 120 psi
Cylinder 5 170
Didn't bother with bank 2 as I assume I'll get similar readings.
Previously was doing small journeys when problems started regarding the Mayo, before that was driving daily to south London until the problems started.
I'm aware of mayo and condensation with these V6s as this is my 3rd omega now
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Please for completeness can you test the 2-4-6 bank at WOT and report back the results?
When you say not running right - what symptoms?
I don't usually offer a "mobile mechanic" service anymore due to work commitments keeping me too busy, but I do occasionally like a challenge and WGC is not that far from me in Buckinghamshire, I would gladly take a look, are you around next week? (weekdays?)
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The car sounds fine on idle, as soon as you go into drive it sounds like it's missing even when cold.
Once warmed up you can hear it's tappety. I have steam from the rear exhaust quite a lot of mayo in filler cap no water on dipstick and terrible petrol consumption.
James I would be really grateful if you could help out with the car as it's frustrating the hell out of me. When are we talking about in the week as I work local in the day
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Define appalling economy... My 3.2 auto estate struggled to beat 22 mpg on a 23 mile commute in traffic... Manual one was nearer 27...
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Consumption is roughly 16 miles to a gallon and worse if it's stop start traffic
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Let me come and do a proper assessment and series of checks incl live data and checking Cambelt setup so on :y
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Any coolant loss?
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Consumption is roughly 16 miles to a gallon and worse if it's stop start traffic
To be expected if you're doing five mile journeys from cold...
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Also just seen you had a recent timing belt.... Who and where fitted this please? And sorry for personal question but what were you charged? :y
Pm sent re logistics btw
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I did the cam belt change with new contitech kit and used a Sykes pickerant locking kit, new water pump and thermostat were also replaced at the same time.
Have since checked the timing a few times and still looks spot on (might be wrong though)
This was changed after the rough running started as I wasn't sure of the previous history.
I checked oil cooler then and could see no seepage from the cover plate.
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Compression results
This is hot and throttle bodies removed and about 2 mg of oil with no change to compression
Cylinder 1 140 psi
Cylinder 3 120 psi
Cylinder 5 170 psi
Cylinder 2 115 psi
Cylinder 4 100 psi
Cylinder 6 190 psi
Used a Gunson comp tester so not to cheap a tester
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Assuming correct test procedures, that's still a very wide range across both banks, which would strongly suggest bad cam-timing. Considering how well mine ran with all four cams a tooth out, I wonder if each pair is incorrectly timed to each other.
If you only do short trips, then the exhaust steam is probably a distraction from your real problem.
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Assuming correct test procedures, that's still a very wide range across both banks, which would strongly suggest bad cam-timing. Considering how well mine ran with all four cams a tooth out, I wonder if each pair is incorrectly timed to each other.
If you only do short trips, then the exhaust steam is probably a distraction from your real problem.
2nded. I think I saw something in historical posts referring to backing plate marks on a cam belt question... I think it's a red herring because there is mention of kit too but, IMO, stripping the heads off is still a way down the line after some further diagnosis.
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25ml of oil in the pot is much to much, the combustion chambers are not much more than this, 1ml tops would be the suggestion :y
Ok I was just trying to give a figure but equally 1ml is way too low. i'm not sure how you could easily measure 1ml. the general recommendation, not specific to the v6, is a tablespoon full which is 15ml. reduce that for having 6 cylinders instead of the usual 4 but increase it as its 3.2l rather than 1.6 or 2l.
each combustion chamber on the V6, piston at tdc, will be 59ml in size. quite easy to calculate given 10:1 compression and 3175ml piston displacement, over 6 cylinders:
where x is the total combustion volume
x = (piston displacement + x) / compression ratio
x = (3175ml+x)/10
10x = 3175+x
9x=3175
x=3175/9
so x is 353ml. 6 cylinders, so each is 353ml/6, i.e. 59ml
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Assuming correct test procedures, that's still a very wide range across both banks, which would strongly suggest bad cam-timing. Considering how well mine ran with all four cams a tooth out, I wonder if each pair is incorrectly timed to each other.
i'm struggling to get my head round how a cam being out would not equally affect all cylinders in that bank but open to explanations
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Wikipedia (yes I knoiw) says X30XE compression ratio is 10.0 to 10.8. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi. Therefore, at low RPM (such as when cranking), the maximum cylinder pressure should be between 147 psi and 158.76 psi. X32XE is listed as 10:1, so 147psi.
Given the accuracy of most cylinder pressure gauges (my Gunson one is carp) anything from 140-160 psi would seem 'normal'. Of your readings, only Cyl#1 looks Ok to me. The fact you've got some above normal, and some below normal suggests to me it isn't valve timing. 190 psi in Cyl#6 makes no sense to me.
One thing you can do is buy a cheap borescope/endoscope off eBay. Shove it down the spark plug hole and take a look at the piston crowns and if possible valve faces. If one or more pistons are cleaner than the rest, then this is a sure sign of water in the bores steam cleaning them. They'll probably be black (covered in carbon), but if they're coked up good and proper then you're getting oil in the bores which is either piston rings or valve stem seals
Chucking loads of oil in can change the compression ratio if any ands up sitting in recesses in the piston crown. This will raise the compression ratio. The purpose of the oil is to help seal the piston rings on a dry/cold engine and as such you only need enough to get down the sides of the pistons in the bores to wet things. If you're doing it on a warm engine, then oil shouldn't be required because the bores and rings will still be wet (hopefully!) from normal running.
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Right every one James v6cdx( think that's right) is coming over to help get to the bottom off the mystery hopefully :)
I appreciate every ones input and once she's running I can then start to do the minor restoration bits that need doing.
One thing that keeps me persevering is my insurance company has valued it at
Wait for it.............£1800
Double checked & they say they couldn't replace it so they feel as these are quite rare & hard to find that would get something of the same spec etc.
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Right every one James v6cdx( think that's right) is coming over to help get to the bottom off the mystery hopefully :)
I appreciate every ones input and once she's running I can then start to do the minor restoration bits that need doing.
One thing that keeps me persevering is my insurance company has valued it at
Wait for it.............£1800
Double checked & they say they couldn't replace it so they feel as these are quite rare & hard to find that would get something of the same spec etc.
Best have a look at this thread mate :(
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=135836.msg1742488;boardseen#new
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Don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but you might not read the other sections...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=135836.0;all :-\
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Wow that really has sent a shiver down me and I didn't meet James yet.
I hope to god he will be ok & there's no long term problems
He'd e- mailed and text a couple of times to arrange to pop over next week to try help me resolve the problems with my car.
I'm thinking sod the car as life is precious and you never know what's round the corner
I wish him a speedy recovery and my thoughts are with him
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Wikipedia (yes I knoiw) says X30XE compression ratio is 10.0 to 10.8. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi. Therefore, at low RPM (such as when cranking), the maximum cylinder pressure should be between 147 psi and 158.76 psi. X32XE is listed as 10:1, so 147psi.
Given the accuracy of most cylinder pressure gauges (my Gunson one is carp) anything from 140-160 psi would seem 'normal'. Of your readings, only Cyl#1 looks Ok to me. The fact you've got some above normal, and some below normal suggests to me it isn't valve timing. 190 psi in Cyl#6 makes no sense to me.
One thing you can do is buy a cheap borescope/endoscope off eBay. Shove it down the spark plug hole and take a look at the piston crowns and if possible valve faces. If one or more pistons are cleaner than the rest, then this is a sure sign of water in the bores steam cleaning them. They'll probably be black (covered in carbon), but if they're coked up good and proper then you're getting oil in the bores which is either piston rings or valve stem seals
Chucking loads of oil in can change the compression ratio if any ands up sitting in recesses in the piston crown. This will raise the compression ratio. The purpose of the oil is to help seal the piston rings on a dry/cold engine and as such you only need enough to get down the sides of the pistons in the bores to wet things. If you're doing it on a warm engine, then oil shouldn't be required because the bores and rings will still be wet (hopefully!) from normal running.
Your predicted pressure would be correct but for 2 factors:
As the air in the cylinder is compressed, heat is generated. This further increases the compression pressure. It won't be completely adiabatic due to heat loss to the cylinder walls, and it will depend greatly on engine temperature and cranking speed.
Valve timing is offset relative to TDC/BDC, so for some of the compression stroke, the intake valve is still open. at cranking speed, this is enough to effectively reduce the length of the stroke.
It matters not. The variation between cylinders is what is significant, and I think this engine is not in the best of health. :(
Given the lowish mileage, I'd guess it might have had a cam belt failure and be suffering from bent valves, or piston rings having been crimped into their grooves by impact with the valves.
I too suspect that compression would be low across the board (or at least on one bank) if the cams were timed incorrectly.
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Your predicted pressure would be correct but for 2 factors:
As the air in the cylinder is compressed, heat is generated. This further increases the compression pressure. It won't be completely adiabatic due to heat loss to the cylinder walls, and it will depend greatly on engine temperature and cranking speed.
Valve timing is offset relative to TDC/BDC, so for some of the compression stroke, the intake valve is still open. at cranking speed, this is enough to effectively reduce the length of the stroke.
Fair enough. I was only trying to give a finger in the air, first order guestimate of what to expect. Heating will increase the pressure and intake valve overlap vs BDC will decrease it. Difficult to guestimate how these two things affect the results
I still think 190psi smells wrong though. We know compression ratio should be 10:1 ish. Ignoring temperature effects that should result in a roughly 10:1 pressure increase, hence 147 psi. 190 psi implies almost 13:1 "compression". If 190psi is correct then this increase can only be due to the heating effects. At ambient (20C /293K) that would require the cylinder gas to reach 378K /105C. Not sure I believe that.
However, if 190psi is correct, then then other 5 cylinders are well and truly 'dangle berries'ed (I think that's the correct technical term).
Any way up, something is seriously awry though.
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Ok I'm in luck brother in law has inspection camera that he's kindly lent me so plan to look inside engine on Sunday weather permitting
I know that things aren't right but it still goes fast as f*ck
Took on board what everyone has said & can see a strip down coming on
Now need to put my mind at rest and feel knowing what's wrong will it would benefit people on the forum & stop others wasting money.
I.e changing bits that certain garages say are not working when there's clearly nothing wrong with the old parts.
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here for what it's worth are the haynes manual figures for the 2.5v6
Standard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 to 15 bar (174 to 218 psi)
Maximum difference between any two cylinders . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 bar (15 psi)
the 2.5 compression ratio is 10.8:1. the 2.6 compression ratio is 10.0:1 so you can take approx 8% off the haynes figures (but not the difference between cylinders of course).
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Problem found at last
After months of frustration, bad backs money changing this part and that part this is what I've found????
Camera into cylinders 1&3 there's rust markings all around including the bottoms of the valves
Cylinder 5 is as you'd expect of a healthy engine
Not bothering with 2,4,6 as I'm going to strip it down
I believe that who I bought it from maybe put some K SEAL in it to disguise the problem as I recall there was no eml bulb in the car when I bought it
If engines gone then I'll strip it for parts unless someone has a better idea
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thanks for updating the thread, so often we never hear the final outcome.
a sad blow for the theory that head gaskets never go on the v6 i think :(.
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When both head gaskets went on my 3.0 mfl, both rear cylinders gave unexpected high readings. My conclusion was that this was due to water being drawn into the cylinder on the compression stroke and therefore reducing the combustion volume on the compression stroke it raised peak compression. This gave the opposite result of what I was expecting as gas leaking past the gasket would give a lower reading, but a compression tester has a non-return valve so you are only recording peak pressure.
This is a practical real world reading where both rear cylinder fire rings were corroded and breached, where it was badly treated as a Vx fleet car before I bought it with the first service at 18k miles!
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Fascinating thread, congratulations to Ulap for perserverance and diagnosis and this forum for its infinive wisdom.
So rust in 1 & 3 cylinders but not in 5. Has it been parked for a while with water in 1 & 3? Is the other bank similarly afflicted? Engine is beyond econmic repair, but I wonder what happened to it.
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Could have previously been driven through a puddle, thrown the belt and left standing for a period of time pending repair... more than one way to get water into the bores...
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That sounds more plausible to me. If it is a case of failed head gasket, it will be the first one known on a 2.6 / 3.2 as far as I know.
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Could have previously been driven through a puddle, thrown the belt and left standing for a period of time pending repair... more than one way to get water into the bores...
Good thinking. That would explain why only 1,2 3 and 4 are affected. Though it still ran so belt was on then. Unlikely previous owner would have replaced bent valves.if the belt was thrown.
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Depends on removal when engine locked up... Certainly a bodge would be to throw a new belt on and see if it ran, then flog it... X'000 miles later and here we are ::)
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wow that's it, it's not a head gasket failure it was driving through a puddle. i don't know how i ever though it might be hg how silly of me :-[.
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Depends on rpm when engine locked up... Certainly a bodge would be to throw a new belt on and see if it ran, then flog it... X'000 miles later and here we are ::)
Typo corrected, and BTW, I am not the only person unconvinced by the HG diagnosis...
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So the car entered the water with the engine at low rpm, water was sucked in, first entered cylinders 1-4, and the first piston rising on compression with water above it stopped the engine instantly; no belt failure, no valve damage. I'll believe that. Car was towed out of the water and parked,long enough for rust to set in.
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i think we can run with puddle theory ::).
lets see, hydraulic damage (bent con rod, crank damage, main bearing damage, hg damage) might not occur if the revs were so low that none of the other cylinders made much attempt to overcome the pressure in the flooded one
that when the engine stalled the driver wisely resisted the first thing anyone would try - to re-start it
maybe the water hit cylinder 6 first and the water stopped coming by the time 4 had finished sucking.
the car was recovered and ran with the rust (no blown hg) and the water in the oil is from the original puddle despite any oil changes and boiling off in normal running
Hmmmm......
IT'S A BLOWN HG GET OVER IT
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Hmmmm......
IT'S A BLOWN HG GET OVER IT
Two blown head gaskets apparrently. :) Not impossible I grant you, but I'd like the OP to post a picture up when the heads have been removed and before the gaskets have been lifted off. I'd like to see the condition of the gaskets and the valve seating condition when the cam is turned.
I'm not looking to argue with anyone as it's not my car to worry about, I just have my own thoughts on this. :) :y My particular interest would be the heads, so any update from the OP would be appreciated. :y
I've had a head gasket go on my old V6, it went outwards though, not between bores. :y
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i think we can run with puddle theory ::).
lets see, hydraulic damage (bent con rod, crank damage, main bearing damage, hg damage) might not occur if the revs were so low that none of the other cylinders made much attempt to overcome the pressure in the flooded one
that when the engine stalled the driver wisely resisted the first thing anyone would try - to re-start it
maybe the water hit cylinder 6 first and the water stopped coming by the time 4 had finished sucking.
the car was recovered and ran with the rust (no blown hg) and the water in the oil is from the original puddle despite any oil changes and boiling off in normal running
Hmmmm......
IT'S A BLOWN HG GET OVER IT
Hydraulic damage less likely than you think. Following C-section birth of my grandson Tom, mother Emma's Rover Streetwise did not move for a month. Then it would not start, nor even turn over. Grandpa tried bigger battery, new starter, finally tow start, all to no avail. I towed the car home, took advice from this forum, found water in no. 1 cylinder, changed head gasket, and car runs again. It has run ever since. My point is no hydraulic damaged had occurred.
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If there is rust visible on the bottom of the valves, that cylinder has not been firing at all. (otherwise, the rust would have been covered up by soot)
All bar 2 cylinders low on compression doesn't sound like a head gasket to me, unless it's been seriously overheated.
Have you checked for a spark in all cylinders? Thinking a coil pack failure might be causing it to misfire. I have seen bore wash cause poor compression figures in an otherwise healthy engine that has been missing badly before now. Then again, a compression test with oil added to the cylinders should have eliminated that.
Failing that, it's had a cam belt failure, has sat for some time before someone's slapped a belt on, found it runs and moved it on. This is a common scenario for this engine.
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Sorry for not posting earlier,
Right then 1st things first need to know how to post pictures
I'll take pictures on the I pad as I dismantle.
Will picture everything as i get to the heads feel if this will help anybody else then great.
Second I have tried 3 different coil packs so can't be these.
Third I've done about 10000 miles in the car from getting it.
This was owned by a women and ( no disrespect here to women) maybe she never checked things like water etc, maybe it run dry and overheated, blew the gaskets bit of k seal to cover the problem then get it sold to unsuspecting buyer.
I'm lucky that we have a company called power units in Hatfield who will pressure test the engine once it's out so at least I'll know if engines fuballed
I could scrap it but I need to know as on tick over it runs fine soon as you drive in gear it runs rough
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on tick over it runs fine soon as you drive in gear it runs rough, yet is still goes fast as f*ck (#68). It must be firing on six some of the time. OP has run it 10000 miles and previous owner was a woman. Emma's Rover had water in no.1 for 2 months, but there was no sign of rust on bores or valves. We all have our theories, ulap, and eagerly await your stripdown.
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i can see the way this is going. the strip down reveals burns through the gasket but of course that won't be hg failure oh no it'll be that puddle again. or lightning strike. or damage caused during the head removal. etc.. etc...
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6 pages to this thread and still no answer as to what happened to this engine, War and Peace made easier reading ;D so what is the problem!
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i can see the way this is going. the strip down reveals burns through the gasket but of course that won't be hg failure oh no it'll be that puddle again. or lightning strike. or damage caused during the head removal. etc.. etc...
Why do all of your posts have to be argumentative and aimed at getting a rise? Actually... It seems to be a general trend. Probably part of the reason many of the long established members have lost interest ::)
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I had a 3.0 with a left bank head gasket failure. Good reason to rebuild though. So HG failure can happen
But I would listen to the more experienced members first before anyone else. If members want to fight and bitch. Go elsewhere. This forum has great members and loads of info
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It can and does happen sometimes on 2.5 / 3.0. It is unheard of an the 2.6 / 3.2 which have a diifferent type of gasket.
Hence people looking for different answers. :y
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It can and does happen sometimes on 2.5 / 3.0. It is unheard of an the 2.6 / 3.2 which have a diifferent type of gasket.
Hence people looking for different answers. :y
Exactly...
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Just rebuilt my 2.5 246 bank rear end gasket went to mush, yep it does happen :) good excuse to decoke head, ports and crowns
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Just rebuilt my 2.5 246 bank rear end gasket went to mush, yep it does happen :) good excuse to decoke head, ports and crowns
To reiterate what is being said..
HG Failure is known on 2.5/3.0 engine but it doesn't result in oil/water mixing or entering combustion chamber but a coolant leak to the outside.
In the 2.6/3.2 engine it is virtually unheard of for there to be a genuine HG Failure. It is more often another fault that has been incorrectly diagnosed.
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Why do all of your posts have to be argumentative and aimed at getting a rise? Actually... It seems to be a general trend. Probably part of the reason many of the long established members have lost interest ::)
defo. seems to have started here with post 11:
Ignoring the fact that the layout of the oil and coolant passages makes it physically impossible for the two to mix :-X
Sure it was MarkDTM that explained why this was the case...
fortunately for the forum the poster seems to have left :)
unfortunately...
To reiterate what is being said..
HG Failure is known on 2.5/3.0 engine but it doesn't result in oil/water mixing or entering combustion chamber but a coolant leak to the outside.
In the 2.6/3.2 engine it is virtually unheard of for there to be a genuine HG Failure. It is more often another fault that has been incorrectly diagnosed.
..the misconception seems to be being re-spread.
to clarify, a head gasket failure on any water cooled engine is likely to involve water entering the cylinders and therefore getting into the oil. what MarkDTM was saying (and had to clarify to the gone poster) is that oil won't get in the water - not that the two won't mix in the oil and water get into the combustion chamber.. happy to discuss at length (and have done :() but i think it is obvious.
that something is virtually unheard of doesn't mean it won't happen, overheating any engine enough is likely to produce a hg faiure - something has to go and the hg is less resilient than the solid block or solid head.
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Why do all of your posts have to be argumentative and aimed at getting a rise? Actually... It seems to be a general trend. Probably part of the reason many of the long established members have lost interest ::)
defo. seems to have started here with post 11:
Ignoring the fact that the layout of the oil and coolant passages makes it physically impossible for the two to mix :-X
Sure it was MarkDTM that explained why this was the case...
fortunately for the forum the poster seems to have left :)
unfortunately...
To reiterate what is being said..
HG Failure is known on 2.5/3.0 engine but it doesn't result in oil/water mixing or entering combustion chamber but a coolant leak to the outside.
In the 2.6/3.2 engine it is virtually unheard of for there to be a genuine HG Failure. It is more often another fault that has been incorrectly diagnosed.
..the misconception seems to be being re-spread.
to clarify, a head gasket failure on any water cooled engine is likely to involve water entering the cylinders and therefore getting into the oil. what MarkDTM was saying (and had to clarify to the gone poster) is that oil won't get in the water - not that the two won't mix in the oil and water get into the combustion chamber.. happy to discuss at length (and have done :() but i think it is obvious.
that something is virtually unheard of doesn't mean it won't happen, overheating any engine enough is likely to produce a hg faiure - something has to go and the hg is less resilient than the solid block or solid head.
What a pointless, nasty, vindictive and totally unnecessary comment. Do us all a favour and take the same action .. please.
and BTW ..sticking a "smiley" on the end of nastiness does not decrease it one iota.
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What a pointless, nasty, vindictive and totally unnecessary comment.
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migmog:
What is this fixation you have with the OP having oil in his water/water in his oil. He say's he has no oil in his water, you post about oil in water. :-\ He say's he has no water in his oil, you post about oil in his water/water in his oil. :-\ Loss of compression is caused by the loss of seal in the combustion chamber. We know that already, it's just a case of finding out why this has happened. It could be loss of compression between fire rings on the gasket, either between cylinders or outwards towards a water jacket. Between cylinders would match the OP's compression readings on 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 but so would valves not seating correctly due to an unknown to us incident, hence other members suspecting timing issues.
So far you have had the OP's car with oil in his water, water in his oil and overheating, yet the OP has mentioned none of those symptoms. Believe it or not we are trying to help, and you just quoting from books you've read isn't helping the OP. We know what the symptoms are but we haven't got the car in front of us to see for ourselves first hand, so people pitch in with suggestions based on the information set before them.
I should imagine that the OP has long fixed this car (if not why not ;)) but won't conclude his findings in the thread as he's getting free entertainment from you bleating on about his oil and water. :y
We have no previous info regarding this car, did it overheat, did it throw a belt, has it been timed incorrectly? We are not privvy to any of this info so it looks like a strip down is required to sort it (OP, pull your finger out ;)), and more to the point, is there any bloody oil in the water? ::)
no signs of oil in expansion vessel.
headgasket failure = leak in the gasket which lies between the combustion cylinder and the water cooling. hence over heating, hence water sucked into and/or leaking into the combustion cylinder = water leaks past rings into crankcase and/or steam is blown past rings into crankcase where there is .....OIL.
[/quote]
Ok have checked dipstick only oil on this.
Water getting into the oil is not specific or otherwise to the omega - most cars have cylinders, pistons, piston rings and oil in the sump. mayo doesn't mean the hg is blown it could just be condensation into the oil but it is one symptom of a hg failure
this isn't rocket science it is commonly known. hg failures are rare on omega Vs so maybe members have never come across it but just use google, eg:
"What are the symptoms of a Blown Head Gasket? As coolant is pulled into the combustion chamber it will cause your engine coolant level to drop. This can cause a low coolant light and overheating if the cooling system on your vehicle is not continually topped off. Also, once your engine is turned off the coolant still left in the engine cylinder will seep past your piston rings into your engine oil. Coolant mixed with oil will make a white milky substance. You may see this on your engine oil dip stick or on a ring around your oil cap."
http://gobdp.com/blog/what-are-the-symptoms-of-a-blown-head-gasket/ (http://gobdp.com/blog/what-are-the-symptoms-of-a-blown-head-gasket/) (or many other links just look for yourselves)
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seriously, if you can't be a***d to read the original post (or many subsequent ones) talking about mayo in the filler cap or rust in the cylinders i can't be bothered to read the rest of your ramblings, sorry.
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seriously, if you can't be a***d to read the original post (or many subsequent ones) talking about mayo in the filler cap or rust in the cylinders i can't be bothered to read the rest of your ramblings, sorry.
No need to apologise, the rambling quotes are yours. ;D But now you have pointed out the mayo it's given me an insight in to your knowledge of this engine, and if that's what you've based the oil/water fixation you are not helping the OP. I believe this was addressed in an early reply as well. :y
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ok then since you are being personal
1) you say he has no water in his oil - are you thick? mayo is water and oil mixed together.
2) you say cite 'no water on the dipstick' as being evidence of no water mixing with oil - are you thick? water boils at 100C and evaporates long before that turning into.. mayo. there will be no water left in the oil itself in a running engine after it's got hot. it'll be mayo (and yes i know there are other causes of mayo ???)
3) you still insist there is no evidence of water getting into the cylinders even after the op says the cylinders are rusting - are you thick? rust caused just by oil and petrol is it? or are we back to the puddle theory? not a water puddle in your view I presume.
4) you ask is there "any bloody oil in the water". - are you thick? we all established in the first few posts that it will not be oil in the cooling system. it's water in the lubrication oil system not oil in the cooling water system(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fighting/bash-head.gif)
If you are going to start off insulting people being helpful, at least bother to read the posts and get your facts right.
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Seems to be a lot of 'Are you Thick' comments from you in there, hopefully, you do realize this is actually an established and predominately a very helpful Forum, rather than Ive got a bigger keyboard then yours.
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Why do all of your posts have to be argumentative and aimed at getting a rise? Actually... It seems to be a general trend. Probably part of the reason many of the long established members have lost interest ::)
defo. seems to have started here with post 11:
Ignoring the fact that the layout of the oil and coolant passages makes it physically impossible for the two to mix :-X
Sure it was MarkDTM that explained why this was the case...
fortunately for the forum the poster seems to have left :)
unfortunately...
To reiterate what is being said..
HG Failure is known on 2.5/3.0 engine but it doesn't result in oil/water mixing or entering combustion chamber but a coolant leak to the outside.
In the 2.6/3.2 engine it is virtually unheard of for there to be a genuine HG Failure. It is more often another fault that has been incorrectly diagnosed.
..the misconception seems to be being re-spread.
to clarify, a head gasket failure on any water cooled engine is likely to involve water entering the cylinders and therefore getting into the oil. what MarkDTM was saying (and had to clarify to the gone poster) is that oil won't get in the water - not that the two won't mix in the oil and water get into the combustion chamber.. happy to discuss at length (and have done :() but i think it is obvious.
that something is virtually unheard of doesn't mean it won't happen, overheating any engine enough is likely to produce a hg faiure - something has to go and the hg is less resilient than the solid block or solid head.
Actually, I was referring to you.
Clearly you MUST be right and know more than anyone else. You have shown your true colours with pointless, nasty comments both before and after the post I have quoted.
But, as I'm sure someone with your fantastic knowledge will know, if water and oil were to mix then it wouldn't boil off before turning to Mayo... The engine oil temperature is normally around 65-75 degrees (so not over 100 degrees) and besides, only pure water boils at exactly 100 degrees ::)
ok then since you are being personal
1) you say he has no water in his oil - are you thick? mayo is water and oil mixed together.
2) you say cite 'no water on the dipstick' as being evidence of no water mixing with oil - are you thick? water boils at 100C and evaporates long before that turning into.. mayo. there will be no water left in the oil itself in a running engine after it's got hot. it'll be mayo (and yes i know there are other causes of mayo ???)
3) you still insist there is no evidence of water getting into the cylinders even after the op says the cylinders are rusting - are you thick? rust caused just by oil and petrol is it? or are we back to the puddle theory? not a water puddle in your view I presume.
4) you ask is there "any bloody oil in the water". - are you thick? we all established in the first few posts that it will not be oil in the cooling system. it's water in the lubrication oil system not oil in the cooling water system(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fighting/bash-head.gif)
If you are going to start off insulting people being helpful, at least bother to read the posts and get your facts right.
Whilst I agree that rust in the cylinder is a byproduct of water in the combustion chamber there are other reasons other than just jumping to HG, especially if the engine has been stood.
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are you thick?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Wow, much better response than I'd anticipated, wind them up and watch them go. ;D ;D :y
Well chuffed with that, none of which helps the OP sadly.
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Indeed. This thread has long since ceased to be any use to the OP, so locking now. ::)