Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: BazaJT on 21 May 2016, 07:22:12
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I see Mr Osbourne has said that if we vote leave then house prices could fall by as much as 18%.Apart from the fact that there are many things that could happen if we vote leave[just as there are many things which could happen if we vote stay] would this be such a terrible thing? I don't own a house-never have-but I know about things like negative equity affecting house buyers,but the upside would surely be that more people would be able to get themselves on the property ladder?Would a price drop affect the building of new houses or would more people being able to buy offset this?
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I saw that headline and thought it would back fire on him.
We need to get the housing price under control in this country as not only is it hard to get on the ladder but with no other option you are forced to rent which in turn pushes rent prices up.
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Even the Brexiters are agreeing that houseprices will be impacted, as interest rates would go up.
So most likely wouldn't increase affordability, but make homeless those that stretched to the limit to buy...
Personally, I'm still undecided on the vote, due to the soundbite style reporting and sensationalist propaganda... ...but doing a little of my own research is pushing me one way more than the other... ...more work needed.
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I can only see a drop in house prices as a good thing all round, it would reduce speculative purchases, and assist those not on the ladder. On paper my house has increased by 2600% since we bought 39 years ago. Ridiculous!
Of course governments like to see house prices rise, as they get tax income from realised profit that is spent. Plus the extra income from fiscal drag on inheritance tax and stamp duty. >:( >:( >:(
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Still undecided but minded to vote 'remain'.
Most of the informed information seems to come from credible individuals such as Mark Carney.
The 'Leave team' seems to lack any real direction making use of the ex-banker 'Shouty Farage' and a bloodless albino of indeterminate parentage.
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Carney is acting under instruction from Osborne, make no mistake about that. It was obvious by the complete lack of balance in his statement. ;)
Farage has never worked in a bank in his life, this is an urban myth.
Its not about economics, long or short term, its not about personalities, its about whether or not we should be a sovereign self governing country. It really is as simple as that.
Although when you look at what an economic basket case the EU is, and there is no signs that they have the most basic economic competence to even begin to be able to imrove matters, it bemuses me when people think the UK would suffer economic meltdown if it goes it alone.
Knowing your political leanings, look at who was anti EU - Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore - until their dying breath, they wanted Britain to have nothing to do with it.
Kinnock was also anti, until they bought him body and soul. Corbyn was anti his whole life, until about a month ago, when he decided to try and avoid dividing his party further, and help the Tories tear themselves apart.
I have never met a genuine Socialist who was pro EU. ;) ;)
As for Osborne, it shows how out of touch with ordinary people he is, when he thinks that a story about reductions in house prices would help his project fear. He has probably won over undecided estate agents, but I cant see many other people seeing it as a bad thing in current circumstances.
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Carney is acting under instruction from Osborne, make no mistake about that. It was obvious by the complete lack of balance in his statement. ;)
Farage has never worked in a bank in his life, this is an urban myth.
Its not about economics, long or short term, its not about personalities, its about whether or not we should be a sovereign self governing country. It really is as simple as that.
Although when you look at what an economic basket case the EU is, and there is no signs that they have the most basic economic competence to even begin to be able to imrove matters, it bemuses me when people think the UK would suffer economic meltdown if it goes it alone.
Knowing your political leanings, look at who was anti EU - Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore - until their dying breath, they wanted Britain to have nothing to do with it.
Kinnock was also anti, until they bought him body and soul. Corbyn was anti his whole life, until about a month ago, when he decided to try and avoid dividing his party further, and help the Tories tear themselves apart.
I have never met a genuine Socialist who was pro EU. ;) ;)
As for Osborne, it shows how out of touch with ordinary people he is, when he thinks that a story about reductions in house prices would help his project fear. He has probably won over undecided estate agents, but I cant see many other people seeing it as a bad thing in current circumstances.
I'm certainly no fan of the EU. It is extremely flawed.
I would however say that Mark Carney is his own man and not a puppet to amuse Osborne.
I would like to hear something more from the 'leave team' other than their current obsession with millions of 'dark foreign johnnies' entering the country if we remain.
Personally I think we'll be fine if we leave, and fine if we stay. :y
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I'm of a mind to leave....why? I'm not a business man or politician,so for me it's more about identity and where I was born.Don't give a toss about who wants to come to this country, as long as they get stuck in and make an honest living, pay into the system and don't take the piss out of it,observe the laws that WE have to, and above all don't badmouth our country, culture/religion etc.....simples! I think it's time that we pushed back at the EU bullies who seem to have nothing better to do but fill their sad dull lives by thinking up complicated directives to make everyones lives a bit more awkward than it needs to be.Also it appears that Germany seems to be the driving force behind a lot of this and it makes me wonder wether this may be a subtle form of 'payback' for a good ass kicking seventy years ago......anyway they and the French do not like us and that's a fact, and of course the feeling is mutual. ::) May be I'm over simplifying my own view on something that is extremely complex and that I just don't get the bigger picture.....I'm just not impressed at all the infighting and the subtle threats to this country if we do decide to grow a pair of balls and get out of the EU.
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Carney is acting under instruction from Osborne, make no mistake about that. It was obvious by the complete lack of balance in his statement. ;)
Farage has never worked in a bank in his life, this is an urban myth.
Its not about economics, long or short term, its not about personalities, its about whether or not we should be a sovereign self governing country. It really is as simple as that.
Although when you look at what an economic basket case the EU is, and there is no signs that they have the most basic economic competence to even begin to be able to imrove matters, it bemuses me when people think the UK would suffer economic meltdown if it goes it alone.
Knowing your political leanings, look at who was anti EU - Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore - until their dying breath, they wanted Britain to have nothing to do with it.
Kinnock was also anti, until they bought him body and soul. Corbyn was anti his whole life, until about a month ago, when he decided to try and avoid dividing his party further, and help the Tories tear themselves apart.
I have never met a genuine Socialist who was pro EU. ;) ;)
As for Osborne, it shows how out of touch with ordinary people he is, when he thinks that a story about reductions in house prices would help his project fear. He has probably won over undecided estate agents, but I cant see many other people seeing it as a bad thing in current circumstances.
I'm certainly no fan of the EU. It is extremely flawed.
I would however say that Mark Carney is his own man and not a puppet to amuse Osborne.
I would like to hear something more from the 'leave team' other than their current obsession with millions of 'dark foreign johnnies' entering the country if we remain.
Personally I think we'll be fine if we leave, and fine if we stay. :y
Mark Carney is a former director of Goldman Sachs. They are probably the most reprehensible financial institution in the world. Think of any financial scandal, from Greece joining the Euro to the recent BHS pension scandal, and they were up to their necks in it.
Even all the other bankers hate them and wont even socialise with them.
Someone who climbs the greasy pole to the board of that corporation is not someone to be trusted in any way. ;)
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Carney is acting under instruction from Osborne, make no mistake about that. It was obvious by the complete lack of balance in his statement. ;)
Farage has never worked in a bank in his life, this is an urban myth.
Its not about economics, long or short term, its not about personalities, its about whether or not we should be a sovereign self governing country. It really is as simple as that.
Although when you look at what an economic basket case the EU is, and there is no signs that they have the most basic economic competence to even begin to be able to imrove matters, it bemuses me when people think the UK would suffer economic meltdown if it goes it alone.
Knowing your political leanings, look at who was anti EU - Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore - until their dying breath, they wanted Britain to have nothing to do with it.
Kinnock was also anti, until they bought him body and soul. Corbyn was anti his whole life, until about a month ago, when he decided to try and avoid dividing his party further, and help the Tories tear themselves apart.
I have never met a genuine Socialist who was pro EU. ;) ;)
As for Osborne, it shows how out of touch with ordinary people he is, when he thinks that a story about reductions in house prices would help his project fear. He has probably won over undecided estate agents, but I cant see many other people seeing it as a bad thing in current circumstances.
Good post :y
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Carney is acting under instruction from Osborne, make no mistake about that. It was obvious by the complete lack of balance in his statement. ;)
Farage has never worked in a bank in his life, this is an urban myth.
Its not about economics, long or short term, its not about personalities, its about whether or not we should be a sovereign self governing country. It really is as simple as that.
Although when you look at what an economic basket case the EU is, and there is no signs that they have the most basic economic competence to even begin to be able to imrove matters, it bemuses me when people think the UK would suffer economic meltdown if it goes it alone.
Knowing your political leanings, look at who was anti EU - Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore - until their dying breath, they wanted Britain to have nothing to do with it.
Kinnock was also anti, until they bought him body and soul. Corbyn was anti his whole life, until about a month ago, when he decided to try and avoid dividing his party further, and help the Tories tear themselves apart.
I have never met a genuine Socialist who was pro EU. ;) ;)
As for Osborne, it shows how out of touch with ordinary people he is, when he thinks that a story about reductions in house prices would help his project fear. He has probably won over undecided estate agents, but I cant see many other people seeing it as a bad thing in current circumstances.
Good post :y
Very well put Migv6 :y
Every time the government and its paid / influenced advisors opens there mouth on the subject of leaving the EU, it smacks of desperation to me :(
Scare stories by a bunch of selfish bullies desperately trying to keep the status quo because that's what is best for the them.
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Again,this just goes to illustrate that you cannot trust 'the old boy' network,Dodgy Dave and his out of touch with reality attitude towards the people in this country is a prime example of the way this is going,and in a way I'll be looking forward with interest and listening to the whingeing and whining when we sign up for more of their shite and the Tories really crack on and show the people of this country how destructive they can be.....NHS first, and more privatisation and penny pinching at home so that the lard arse EU can be fed more and more of our hard earned to keep us in favour. I'm fortunate that I don't have a mortgage and we are secure financially,so for me what ever way the referendum goes then it won't be me that will suffer the fallout, but it will be the youngsters trying to get on the property ladder, because despite what the Tories are promising there won't be tens of thousands of new 'affordable' homes instantly available,and in all honesty it won't happen here in the south,because foreign investors are snapping up the new builds off plan, they are investing further out away from London and this has been evident in the town where I live, and although they are building houses in vast numbers here you had better have at least 4k in your back pocket and it would be better to have 6k if you want a look in. I think it's a case of be careful what you wish for and think on how we have been pushed around by Europe....i.e more of the same, or make the politicians get off their lazy fat arses and do what we pay them for .....run this country and not hang around the EU and being grateful for the scraps that they throw us ::)
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I can only see a drop in house prices as a good thing all round, it would reduce speculative purchases, and assist those not on the ladder. On paper my house has increased by 2600% since we bought 39 years ago. Ridiculous!
Of course governments like to see house prices rise, as they get tax income from realised profit that is spent. Plus the extra income from fiscal drag on inheritance tax and stamp duty. >:( >:( >:(
Seems a bit of a myopic view imo.
IF (and I'm not saying it would happen) house prices dropped 18%, yes you, and everyone who's paid off their house would be fine. But anyone with more than 80% LTV (which btw isn't speculators, as buy to let mortgages over 75% are hard to come by) would be in negative equity. Therefore you can't re-mortgage and are stuck on the standard variable rate, which, as a pre-requisit of this scenario would have gone up, leaving you worse off at best, unable to meet he payments at worst.
That scenario only hurts the people/families who are trying to get on and buy their own houses. Not the wealthy, not the prospectors (once people have lost their mprtgaged homes, they'll be renting after all!) and certainly not anyone who bought their house pre 1996 and benefitted from the resulting windfall.
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You'll forgive me for disagreeing. In addition to my comment above regarding Governments' financial interest in house prices, the continual increase in house prices above the rate of wage increases has pushed the opportunity for younger prospective buyers ever further into their future. It has forced families who do manage to get on the housing ladder to sacrifice family life such that in the case of the average family, both husband and wife, (or partner and partner) are obliged to work in order to pay the mortgage. As someone who for some years rented out property, I can also assure you that rents reflect the price of the property, ergo, Lower house prices = Lower rents.
I commend the cartoon in today's Times, page 4.:y
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The whole in-out debate for me boils down to two choices
1) Stay in, we are doing pretty well anyway and its the low risk approach
2) Leave, we have absolutely no idea or means to predict the consequences.
I guess it depends a lot on your personal circumstances as well but, being the risk adverse person I am.....
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The whole in-out debate for me boils down to two choices
1) Stay in, we are doing pretty well anyway and its the low risk approach
2) Leave, we have absolutely no idea or means to predict the consequences.
I guess it depends a lot on your personal circumstances as well but, being the risk adverse person I am.....
The unknown isn't going to be automatically worse...
Even staying in, the future is entirely unpredictable, and given the economic state of southern and eastern Europe, would it not be prudent to preempt the inevitable... :-\
Leave now and be in control of OUR future, or wait until the ship sinks and fight, perhaps literally, for a space in the lifeboat?
Anyone who got OFF the Titanic when she stopped in Cork would have been laughed all the way back to shore. Five days later, you know they made the right choice :y
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The whole in-out debate for me boils down to two choices
1) Stay in, we are doing pretty well anyway and its the low risk approach
2) Leave, we have absolutely no idea or means to predict the consequences.
I guess it depends a lot on your personal circumstances as well but, being the risk adverse person I am.....
The unknown isn't going to be automatically worse...
Even staying in, the future is entirely unpredictable, and given the economic state of southern and eastern Europe, would it not be prudent to preempt the inevitable... :-\
Leave now and be in control of OUR future, or wait until the ship sinks and fight, perhaps literally, for a space in the lifeboat?
Anyone who got OFF the Titanic when she stopped in Cork would have been laughed all the way back to shore. Five days later, you know they made the right choice :y
Staying in you see small changes and can adjust, step out and it s step change where we have to sort ourselves (with idiots in charge no matter which party rules)
The Titanic comparison is a bit of total irrelevance :y
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Point I was trying to illustrate is that the brave choice isn't necessarily the wrong one :y
And the EU is much like a lumbering ship with noone quite in control, (plenty of people in charge... but that's not the same thing)... eventually it will hit something.
Agreed re leadership... immediate choice would be 'Call me Boris' or Lenin. Can't see how Cameron would survive a vote to leave, unfortunate as you need stable government to have any chance of going it alone...
Says it all really that the In/out argument is being debated on party lines rather than having a reasoned, united presentation about the merits and pitfalls of both staying and going, with solid contingencies for both scenarios.
The only saving grace is that if we leave, regardless of what happens here... what happens in Europe will be far worse...
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Still undecided but the 'outers' need to put up more of a fight.
Simply having 'Bonkers Boris' jumping off a bus and shouting 'take back control isn't enough'
Something more concrete is required.
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In todays latest tranch of scaremongering, the average family holiday will be £200 more if we leave. ::)
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In the end it comes down to age.
The majority of young people will vote to stay.......the majority of old people will vote to leave.
Old people are more likely to vote than young people.
This means.....??????? ;)
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In todays latest tranch of scaremongering, the average family holiday will be £200 more if we leave. ::)
Still undecided but the 'outers' need to put up more of a fight.
Simply having 'Bonkers Boris' jumping off a bus and shouting 'take back control isn't enough'
Something more concrete is required.
Exactly...
I am not convinced that staying in the EU is the right choice but all this scaremongering offal, from both sides, does nothing to reassure me that leaving will do anything more than leave us completely Donald Ducked.
Equally staying in, on the back of a narrow vote with low turn out, will screw us over with the French and Germans :-\
Enough bullshit soundbites already... can we please have be told what our elected leaders actually plan to do regardless of how the vote goes, because at this rate, noone will have any idea which way to vote, and won't bother... leaving us all to suffer at the hands of the loons*, which won't end well, (think Labours third term :-X)
*there are loons on both sides, who will probably vote according to either the colour of their neighbours or the headlines of whichever paper they read on the day :-(
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... can we please have be told what our elected leaders actually plan to do regardless of how the vote goes...
Well, that's the trick, isn't it.
Camoron was advised to make the referendum a manifesto promise in order to quash UKIP at the election.
He was told that the "In" vote would be a dead certainty, so he has no plan for an "Out" vote. Doesn't need one.
Resignation would be his best plan in that scenario, IMHO. Doesn't leave us with a credible leader, but we haven't got one now, nor one in waiting, anyway. ;D
It's true that we aren't doing too bad with the status quo.
I'm not sure an "In" vote is a vote for the status quo, however.
Brussels is largely a collection of unaccountable, unelected, frustrated ex-politicians who failed at the national level and then got a ride on the gravy train. Their agenda is a constant expansion of their empire and eventually a European state.
An "In" vote would be seen as a vindication of their position with respect to the UK. I suspect we would be increasingly marginalised and lose influence from there on in, if we continue our current course of being in the EU but not the euro nor part of the inevitable "State" that will be required to stop the euro failing.
I'm sure we're in for a world of pain if we vote "Out", in the short term, but it may just be time to swallow that particular pill. :-\
A few countries voting with their feet, led by the UK, may be enough to cause the whole house of cards to fall down and it can then be scaled back to a common market again and kept there, as it always should have been.
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If the 'Establishment' is urging us to take a course of action then it should be everyone's duty to do exactly the opposite! :P
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If the 'Establishment' is urging us to take a course of action then it should be everyone's duty to do exactly the opposite! :P
They aren't even urging us... noone gives a monkeys left gonad if holidays do or don't rise by £200, and if the holiday already costs £3,000, what's another £200.
What I want to know is whether the lights will stay on and that the system will continue, by and large, unaffected if we all vote Out :-\
It would be naive to think that it would all be plane sailing, but some basic reassurance would go along way...
In some respects, it was a shame that Scotland didn't vote for independence, as at least that would have given us an idea of some of the issues we might face...
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... can we please have be told what our elected leaders actually plan to do regardless of how the vote goes...
Well, that's the trick, isn't it.
Camoron was advised to make the referendum a manifesto promise in order to quash UKIP at the election.
He was told that the "In" vote would be a dead certainty, so he has no plan for an "Out" vote. Doesn't need one.
Resignation would be his best plan in that scenario, IMHO. Doesn't leave us with a credible leader, but we haven't got one now, nor one in waiting, anyway. ;D
It's true that we aren't doing too bad with the status quo.
I'm not sure an "In" vote is a vote for the status quo, however.
Brussels is largely a collection of unaccountable, unelected, frustrated ex-politicians who failed at the national level and then got a ride on the gravy train. Their agenda is a constant expansion of their empire and eventually a European state.
An "In" vote would be seen as a vindication of their position with respect to the UK. I suspect we would be increasingly marginalised and lose influence from there on in, if we continue our current course of being in the EU but not the euro nor part of the inevitable "State" that will be required to stop the euro failing.
I'm sure we're in for a world of pain if we vote "Out", in the short term, but it may just be time to swallow that particular pill. :-\
A few countries voting with their feet, led by the UK, may be enough to cause the whole house of cards to fall down and it can then be scaled back to a common market again and kept there, as it always should have been.
Yep. I'll go with pretty much all of that :y
My tuppence worth . . . .
Firstly I am torn as I do business with France ( I import wine :D), so I have a somewhat vested interest in "Stay", however I personally lean towards "Leave" . . . . . . errr I think, sort-of ish, maybe
However, if you vote "Stay"
Don't complain when Brussels dictates what a sausage or a chocolate bar should be
When other countries are admitted to "The Club" and more cheap labour arrives
When citizens of other members clog up the roads and hospital waiting rooms
You get the picture
If you vote "Leave"
Don't complain when stuff from EU costs more
Going to EU on hols becomes less easy
Who knows what will happen to the € - £ Exchange rate ?
When some international companies may relocate
Add to the above lists as seems appropriate ???
I wish I knew the answer, or even how I will be voting. :-\
One thing is certain David Cameron surely regrets promising a referendum ::)
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They aren't even urging us... noone gives a monkeys left gonad if holidays do or don't rise by £200, and if the holiday already costs £3,000, what's another £200.
The very fact that such stories are being run is telling of how we're being patronised, though. >:(
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I feel quite let down by the whole referendum thing.
A thinking caring EU would have recognised the feelings of a significant number of its people and adapted. Changed to suit the needs of the people. The fact that it didn't and that Cameron called a referendum is really a disaster.
If we come out I personally feel that life won't end, trade will continue. It will however require real leadership to keep the boat sailing well. It will take years to achieve.
If we stay in , my gut feeling is that we will be put on the naughty step for having had the temerity to have a referendum (and fail). Quite what that naughty step will look like I don't know. It will also more importantly be a green light for "more Europe". Other countries won't feel emboldened to follow suit with their own referendum.
Then there is the small issue of how divisive the campaign has been to mainly the Tories. Will they ever be united again? If there is an out vote will Remain camp MPs ever serve in the cabinet?
perhaps we should be more worried about the rise and rise of the far right. We had a narrow escape in Austria. Is the EU causing this swing to the right or acting as a bulwark?
I am also concerned about the top level stuff the EU is doing. Sure they have propaganda pages on the web for all the (mostly) good touchy feely stuff they do but nowhere does it mention allowing Germany to declare Europe open to 6 figures worth of mostly undocumented migrants/refugees. Nowhere will it mention offering visas in return for handling returned migrants and clamping down on people trafficers. Junkers blunders from one crisis to another and Schultz (a president of the EU) openly admits they are a mess.
The whole thing is like a horror film.
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My reply to my MP asking me to vote Stay;
Dear ....,
When my wife and I voted to join the Common Market back in the '70's, we were told by the politicians of the day that we would be joining a trading block. We were not told at the time, although it has subsequently become clear, that the unspoken intention was to join an organisation that would eventually become a federal state.
I have no wish to be part of a federal state, thus eventually losing rights to control many of the things we currently hold dear, and rendering Parliament a mere cypher, required to rubber stamp laws made in Brussels - or is it Strasbourg, I always forget where they are - and eventually our once great nation will be completely subsumed into a greater European State.
Having carefully read through the re-negotiation with the EU recently concluded by the Prime Minister, I am afraid that I am completely underwhelmed by the results. I assume that you have also read through the detailed analysis, and I am surprised that you are prepared to accept the numerous 'ifs', 'requests', percentages, etc., with which the documents are littered, as being a definitive and satisfactory conclusion to the negotiations. Had the Prime Minister returned with a realistic re-negotiation of our membership, I may have been persuaded to vote remain, but as he merely returned with a piece of paper, with "a new deal in our time" which was less than convincing, I am afraid that I can only hope that we get off this train to federation now, while we still have the chance.
Many arguments are put forward along the lines of "The EU has given us this or that, or done this or that", yet no evidence is proposed that such matters could or would not have taken place had we not been members of the EU. Increasingly, all countries are subject to global imperatives, relating, for example, to human rights, global warming, etc., and I am confident that we will act on such pressures whether inside or outside the EU.
Incidentally, it is edifying to note that the Government's Remain campaign is almost entirely negative in tone, could this possibly be that they find it difficult to say anything positive?
Yours sincerely
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They aren't even urging us... noone gives a monkeys left gonad if holidays do or don't rise by £200, and if the holiday already costs £3,000, what's another £200.
The very fact that such stories are being run is telling of how we're being patronised, though. >:(
That is arguably a media issue... they thrive on sound bites, so that's what the politicians give them. Trouble is, noone bothers the either follow up the sound bites with valid and pertinent questions, equally the politicians don't seem to be pushing the message behind the sound bites so all we're left with is Boris jumping out of buses and the other side saying the world will end :-\
The holiday sound bite being a case in point... the price of a holiday might go up £40-50 per person... How? Why?
If it then transpired that in order to pay for its next bail out, Brussels makes Spain/Greece tax every foreign/non EU visitor €65 to repay the 'loan', then actually that price rise is justified. People can then make an informed decision as to whether they go to Spain/Greece or choose to holiday here, which in turn will help bolster the UK economy... making the issue somewhat moot.
There are an equal number of legitimate reasons for staying in and for leaving. Personally, I am leaning towards leaving, but it would be nice to have some concerted reassurance that we will still have a working government should the day come :-\
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If the 'Establishment' is urging us to take a course of action then it should be everyone's duty to do exactly the opposite! :P
They aren't even urging us...
How can you say that? ??? What do you think 'Project Fear' is all about? ::)
noone gives a monkeys left gonad if holidays do or don't rise by £200, and if the holiday already costs £3,000, what's another £200.
You're right, but what about those paying £400 for their 10 days in Majorca or whichever cheap and cheerful EU destination? Then a £230 increase is significant. ::) BUT as you rightly say Al, Mr Cameron won't give us the specifics... ::) I suspect he is alluding to the probable drop in the value of Sterling in the event of Brexit, however I also suspect that once the markets realise that the world hasn't ended, then Sterling would recover. ;)
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I'm looking forward to not seeing the incessant convoys of foreign HGV's making driving around the M25 quite scary at times,because..... if we come out of the E.U they will disappear overnight as no one will be selling/sending their goods here,won't they?.....they will won't they?? of course they bloody well won't ::) ;D
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I think its naïve to think, if we leave, we'll be in charge of our own destinys. Probably less so, as we have to negotiate with everyone, from a position of
weakness an insignificant island.
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You'll forgive me for disagreeing. In addition to my comment above regarding Governments' financial interest in house prices, the continual increase in house prices above the rate of wage increases has pushed the opportunity for younger prospective buyers ever further into their future.
Always. It makes for interesting discussion ;).
Do you not think that supply and demand plays a bigger part here? Ie, we aren't , building enough houses in areas where people want to live, and haven't been for the last 20yrs. Housing is a resource which (by percentage) becomes rarer year on year, so of course its price will rise more than a typical basket of goods (which are not becoming rarer).
A slump in house prices alone won't address the issue of people not being able to afford to buy. Only an increase in supply will do that. Developers are the biggest barrier to a change in the housing market supply. Given they have thousands of acres land banked to be developed as and when they choose. A slump in house prices (and therefore the profit they can make per unit) is hardly going to induce them to build more houses.
As someone who for some years rented out property, I can also assure you that rents reflect the price of the property, ergo, Lower house prices = Lower rents.
I commend the cartoon in today's Times, page 4.:y
Yes, they do, but the correlation is not direct. Otherwise rental yields for a given type/size of house would be comparable across the country, They aren't. Yes rents would fall a bit, but not in correlation unless you can address the supply-side of the equation.
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I think its naïve to think, if we leave, we'll be in charge of our own destinys. Probably less so, as we have to negotiate with everyone, from a position of weakness an insignificant island.
Hmmm an insignificant island that happens to have the 5th largest economy in the world, is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a member of the G8 and G20, a founding member of the IMF, World Bank, United Nations and NATO to name a few and has observer status or non-region membership of other regional organisations such as the Arctic Council, Asia Development Bank and Africa Development Bank. :y
So how un-insignificant does a country have to be to make it's own way in the world as a independent democratic sovereign nation? :-\ :)
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Easy solution to house prices - shoot more people. That will reduce demand.
TB for President of the UK!
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The thing that bothers me about staying in is that if we do then I can't see how we can avoid becoming a part of a federal state of Europe.Coming out will not be an easy road,but trade,holidays and all the rest will continue,it did for a couple of centuries before the EU,so it won't just come to a grinding halt.As an aside my polling card arrived today.
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Easy solution to house prices - shoot more people. That will reduce demand.
TB for President of the UK!
You get my vote.
But we need some checks and balances, so you can buy your own ammunition ;D
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Easy solution to house prices - shoot more people. That will reduce demand.
TB for President of the UK!
You get my vote.
But we need some checks and balances, so you can buy your own ammunition ;D
That could prove expensive ;D
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Easy solution to house prices - shoot more people. That will reduce demand.
TB for President of the UK!
You get my vote.
But we need some checks and balances, so you can buy your own ammunition ;D
That could prove expensive ;D
When the threat of unemployment strikes, all the people who've been flooding the place from the far reaches will soon head home, freeing up both jobs and property... double bonus :D
Anyone that's left, gets to stand in a straight line for you to shoot several at a time... a hundred grain 45 fmj should manage 10 at a time if they stand close. ;)
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You'll forgive me for disagreeing. In addition to my comment above regarding Governments' financial interest in house prices, the continual increase in house prices above the rate of wage increases has pushed the opportunity for younger prospective buyers ever further into their future.
Always. It makes for interesting discussion ;).
Do you not think that supply and demand plays a bigger part here? Ie, we aren't , building enough houses in areas where people want to live, and haven't been for the last 20yrs. Housing is a resource which (by percentage) becomes rarer year on year, so of course its price will rise more than a typical basket of goods (which are not becoming rarer).
A slump in house prices alone won't address the issue of people not being able to afford to buy. Only an increase in supply will do that. Developers are the biggest barrier to a change in the housing market supply. Given they have thousands of acres land banked to be developed as and when they choose. A slump in house prices (and therefore the profit they can make per unit) is hardly going to induce them to build more houses.
As someone who for some years rented out property, I can also assure you that rents reflect the price of the property, ergo, Lower house prices = Lower rents.
I commend the cartoon in today's Times, page 4.:y
Yes, they do, but the correlation is not direct. Otherwise rental yields for a given type/size of house would be comparable across the country, They aren't. Yes rents would fall a bit, but not in correlation unless you can address the supply-side of the equation.
I cannot argue with the premise that the shortage of property pushes up prices, and perhaps the 25% increase in the UK population since 1960 may also have some effect on the failure to keep up with demand. However none of that undermines my argument that these increases, for whatever reason, are not good for the majority of, as politicians like to emote, "hard working people".
As regards rental yields, I don't believe I argued that these were level across the UK, merely that rents are related to house prices. :y
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Easy solution to house prices - shoot more people. That will reduce demand.
TB for President of the UK!
I can see you becoming a Lib Dem and then marrying Shami Chakrabarti. :D ;)
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The choice is very simple: Do you want to be governed by politicians you can vote out of office when they do a bad job or by those that are appointed and you can't regardless on how good or bad they are or what they impose on the country? Ones a democracy and the other a dictatorship. Your choice on the 23rd of June on who is going to govern you. EU law has supremacy at the moment, so when push comes to shove, they always win. :(
The dictatorship have already shown that any democratically town hall that goes beyond its status gets removed until they agree to tow the line ask, Greece and Italy. :(
The rise of far left and right parties in EU countries will continue as a reaction to the lack of democracy at the centre of decision making. Political accountability always make extremes more appealing. The far left and right coalition wreaking ruling Greece are a classic case.
The insurmountable problems with the Euro have not been fixed, they just kick the can down the road hoping something will turn up. Don't worry things will, but for the worse. Greece is broke again and needs another bailout and we will continue to get dragged in with our wallets with this mess. Portugal is broke, Italy is broke and France is not far away from broke. What they need is growth which they won't get with the fundamental Euro problems and rigid EU bureaucracy. Even Germany is now struggling with growth and with their export based economy, the classic signs of an export crisis is now on the horizon with falling profits, where prices are cut to keep volumes up. The other great exporting countries, Japan and now China started like this. As the BRICS have grown Western countries percentage of world trade has dropped but the EU block has declined twice as fast as the US, we are going relatively broke faster. Stupid laws, rigid rules and excessively bureaucracy have a price and economic growth is always the first and most telling causality.
Unlike the US and to a lessor extent the UK the majority of the EU countries banks have not written off or down their bad and non-performing debts, so expect more banking problems like Deutsche Bank's recently, where there are now questions over whether it will survive. As the European economic problems get worse I'm sure yours and mine 'joint and several' wallets will help the ECB as every little helps, unless we are no longer a member of this expensive, dysfunctional club of course.
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Easy solution to house prices - shoot more people. That will reduce demand.
TB for President of the UK!
I can see you becoming a Lib Dem and then marrying Shami Chakrabarti. :D ;)
Not before you've pulled your foreskin up over your head to keep your ears warm....
She would be first on list for those scheduled for termination... ...and not just because she's an ugly bint. Poxy, ugly, stupid, do-gooder bitch is wasting our oxygen supply >:(
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Have spoken with several friends & colleagues and have not had anybody say stay in, what I found most surprising is we have had a lot of new officers start in the service recently & I quite expected a stay in from some of them but not one amongst them. The scare tactics being used by the stay in crowd are beginning piss a lot of people off.
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My own experience is more mixed, amongst those I work with, and former colleagues, it's probably 90% remain. Guys at my rugby club is more mixed, perhaps 55-60% leave.
Will be interesting to see which way it goes, not just the headline figure, but how different groups vote. I noted a recent article that reckons that nearly 75% of under 30's want to remain, while 65% of over 60's want to leave.
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My own experience is more mixed, amongst those I work with, and former colleagues, it's probably 90% remain. Guys at my rugby club is more mixed, perhaps 55-60% leave.
Will be interesting to see which way it goes, not just the headline figure, but how different groups vote. I noted a recent article that reckons that nearly 75% of under 30's want to remain, while 65% of over 60's want to leave.
Latest Times/YouGov poll has Remain on 41%, Leave on 41%, Won't vote 4% and Don't know 13%. You can see why the Remainers are running so many scare stories.
Older people more likely to vote with majority on the Leave side compared with younger Remain voters. Polls also show Leave voters are also more motivated to vote.
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Yup, I think unless there is a very strong turnout, it'll be a vote to leave.
I think the scare stories are pretty evenly spread on both sides. All a bit of a waste imho, most people are set one way or the other and the rest are thoroughly disenfranchised with the bull being spouted by both sides.
If we do leave, I'll be interested to see who actually ends up better and worse off (there will doubtless be those on both sides). Given SWMBO gets paid in euros, I suspect we'd be in the first group.
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I'm very interested in the fact that the "leave" campaign have deliberately, and with the help of all the UK press, managed to label every statement by the "stay" bunch as "scaremongering" .....
Just how is warning that things will change, drastically, one way or the other ..if we leave "scaremongering" ... ?? surely it would be far better IF (BIG IF) the leave bunch actually produced the figures and PROOF that the warnings are false ?? .. but they don't .. because they can't ... they have no actual idea/proof of the terms and conditions that will be imposed on us if we leave .. all they do is say the remain bunch are wrong ...
At least by remaining we do KNOW where we stand ... what happens IF we leave is pure conjecture/speculation.. and the leave bunch don't even have the balls to admit this... again .. all they do is throw the "scaremongering" label ... that the press pick up and repeat ....
Have you noticed that the BBC / ITV ALWAYS, without fail, give the leave lot the last word ?? Every report ... regardless of the subject .... the leave point have last word ... so folks remember it more ...
and the UK press is supposed to be "neutral" ?? ... what a load of rubbish !!
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Have you noticed that the BBC / ITV ALWAYS, without fail, give the leave lot the last word ?? Every report ... regardless of the subject .... the leave point have last word ... so folks remember it more ...
and the UK press is supposed to be "neutral" ?? ... what a load of rubbish !!
I've noticed this as well, only I think it happens the other way round. Especially with the BBC! ;D
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I think it is folly to believe that we know where we stand if we Remain. Once the matter had been settled and we were "locked in " I'm sure the process of integration, transfer of powers, sovereignty etc. etc. would accelerate at quite a pace.
Any objective study of the history of the EU must surely lead to that judgement ?
To believe Camerons promises with regard to his "renegotiation" would be at least as bad as believing Heath and Wilsons promises in the 70,s. They knew it was a one way street to an eventual United States of Europe, and so does Cameron.
At least in the 70,s people hadn't seen it all before, but Cameron is pulling exactly the same trick that Wilson pulled then.
TBH, it mystifies me how anyone could fall for it all over again.
I would take a lot of convincing that the BBC favours the Brexit campaign. It is after all funded, in part, by the EU.
I must say though, that Paxmans programme on the subject last week was quite well balanced, although there were reports that the hierarchy at the Beeb insisted it was edited and toned down as it leaned too far in favour of Brexit.
I think it would be worth a look for those who are undecided or feel uninformed by the current "debate".
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Meet the new boss... just like the old boss ::)
Have spoken with several friends & colleagues and have not had anybody say stay in, what I found most surprising is we have had a lot of new officers start in the service recently & I quite expected a stay in from some of them but not one amongst them. The scare tactics being used by the stay in crowd are beginning piss a lot of people off.
Maybe they secretly want to leave :-\ The way this has been played out from the start, I would imagine there are a few MPs who went one way or tother with an eye on their future career :-X
It shouldn't be about sides, but rather making an informed decision which will affect everybody for generations to come :-\
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I agree with Entwood, we know where we are if we remain, on a non-stop journey to becoming a part of an EU federal state, unable to make our own laws, and with a puppet Parliament, admittedly not in my lifetime, but inevitably somewhere within the next 30 years or so. :y
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My own experience is more mixed, amongst those I work with, and former colleagues, it's probably 90% remain. Guys at my rugby club is more mixed, perhaps 55-60% leave.
Will be interesting to see which way it goes, not just the headline figure, but how different groups vote. I noted a recent article that reckons that nearly 75% of under 30's want to remain, while 65% of over 60's want to leave.
This is because young people look to the future and old people look to the past.
On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
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On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
So three channels on the TV, the cane at school and what the hell was she doing out of the kitchen anyway? ;D
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On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
So three channels on the TV, the cane at school and what the hell was she doing out of the kitchen anyway? ;D
Two channels, Aaron. ;)
No BBC2 before 1964.
.......as for women knowing where the kitchen is. In some ways the old ways were best. :)
As for the cane. I was caned on a regular basis at school. Caned by the Headmaster and not the politically correctly named 'Headteacher' we have today.
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On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
So three channels on the TV, the cane at school and what the hell was she doing out of the kitchen anyway? ;D
In the fifties? ::)
One thing the Leave campaigners imply is that a leave vote will be like Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower, and everything will instantly revert to 1973 when Britain joined the EEC. This seems unlikely!
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On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
So three channels on the TV, the cane at school and what the hell was she doing out of the kitchen anyway? ;D
In the fifties? ::)
One thing the Leave campaigners imply is that a leave vote will be like Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower, and everything will instantly revert to 1973 when Britain joined the EEC. This seems unlikely!
Does this mean I can buy the newly-released and superbly engineered Austin All-aggro and Morris Marina?
I shall also put a few quid on Red Rum to win the Grand National. :)
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My own experience is more mixed, amongst those I work with, and former colleagues, it's probably 90% remain. Guys at my rugby club is more mixed, perhaps 55-60% leave.
Will be interesting to see which way it goes, not just the headline figure, but how different groups vote. I noted a recent article that reckons that nearly 75% of under 30's want to remain, while 65% of over 60's want to leave.
This is because young people look to the future and old people look to the past.
On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
I don't agree. Young people weren't born before we were in the EU, so have no idea of what life could be like without it. They have also often been educated in Universities which receive EU funding, and teach accordingly.
Older people by definition, have more life experience than younger people, and remember life before the EU. Older people are often less susceptible to the crap spoken by politicians, as they have seen / heard it all before, which is why those who remember what Wilson did in the 70,s will be harder to fool this time around. They are probably also more aware of the potential this country has as a stand alone nation.
Younf people tend to live in the present moment. Older people live in the present with the benefit of having learned from the past, and usually with a degree of concern regarding the legacy they will leave future generations imo.
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On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
So three channels on the TV, the cane at school and what the hell was she doing out of the kitchen anyway? ;D
In the fifties? ::)
One thing the Leave campaigners imply is that a leave vote will be like Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower, and everything will instantly revert to 1973 when Britain joined the EEC. This seems unlikely!
I think that is the image of leave campaigners that those who wish to remain want to project to those who don't know.
As a Brexiteer, I view the EU as an extremely out of date, 1950,s style protectionist bloc, almost Soviet in style.
I look forward to no longer being constrained by it, and becoming an outward looking nation which deals with the global economy in a way which is more fitting to the 21st century, than the mid 20th century.
I'm convinced the EU cannot work and is doomed, its just a matter of when it will happen. When it does happen, the recent damage inflicted on Greece, and the theft of depositers money from Cypriot banks, give us the pointers to what is likely to happen to all of us, before the dinosaur finally dies.
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My own experience is more mixed, amongst those I work with, and former colleagues, it's probably 90% remain. Guys at my rugby club is more mixed, perhaps 55-60% leave.
Will be interesting to see which way it goes, not just the headline figure, but how different groups vote. I noted a recent article that reckons that nearly 75% of under 30's want to remain, while 65% of over 60's want to leave.
This is because young people look to the future and old people look to the past.
On Newsnight the other day an 'oldie' from Eastbourne said she was voting to leave the EU because she wanted England to be like it was in the fifties.
I don't agree. Young people weren't born before we were in the EU, so have no idea of what life could be like without it. They have also often been educated in Universities which receive EU funding, and teach accordingly.
Older people by definition, have more life experience than younger people, and remember life before the EU. Older people are often less susceptible to the crap spoken by politicians, as they have seen / heard it all before, which is why those who remember what Wilson did in the 70,s will be harder to fool this time around. They are probably also more aware of the potential this country has as a stand alone nation.
Younf people tend to live in the present moment. Older people live in the present with the benefit of having learned from the past, and usually with a degree of concern regarding the legacy they will leave future generations imo.
Much of what you say is true, Mig.
Young people tend to see themselves as 'citizens of the world'. They think on a more global scale. This is good as the young should be adventurous.
Older people tend to want to 'batten down the hatches' They like to conserve, to keep things they way they are.......or alternatively, go back to a time when they felt more comfortable and in control.
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On a personal basis.....I sort of don't really care wether we stay or leave the EU,as already stated I would prefer an out vote as I think as a nation we have the backbone to strike out and stop hanging on to the coat tails of a bunch of parasites who in truth have very little respect for the british and really only need our financial input.As to one of the arguments relating to causing ourselves a year or so's recession if we leave,then all I can say is what country were we all in, a few years back, err when we had a recession then...must have been dreaming!obviously not here ..must have been another England in another EU in a galaxy far far away. ::) :)
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On a personal basis.....I sort of don't really care wether we stay or leave the EU,as already stated I would prefer an out vote as I think as a nation we have the backbone to strike out and stop hanging on to the coat tails of a bunch of parasites who in truth have very little respect for the british and really only need our financial input.As to one of the arguments relating to causing ourselves a year or so's recession if we leave,then all I can say is what country were we all in, a few years back, err when we had a recession then...must have been dreaming!obviously not here ..must have been another England in another EU in a galaxy far far away. ::) :)
Telling too that the rest of Europe is still perilously close to that recession :-X
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The European Union is failing. Its common currency and its Schengen free movement policy are disasters. Whatever Britain does it must fall apart eventually. The referendum is Britain's chance to leave first.
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The European Union is failing. Its common currency and its Schengen free movement policy are disasters. Whatever Britain does it must fall apart eventually. The referendum is Britain's chance to leave first.
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Absolutely agree 100%.
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Me too. :y
Immigration figures for the last year at a third of a million. Its completely unsustainable, and while we are governed from abroad, there is nothing whatsoever that can be done about it.
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Went into my local Wetherspoons yesterday and on the table i sat at was a copy of their magazine. In it was a twelve page E.U. referendum special with articles from both sides, (though their chief exec Tim Martin is a confirmed Brexiter). Must admit that i thought it was quite a good read and gave me some insights that the endless media soundbites don.t. If you get a chance to read it, do so and see what you think.
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Went into my local Wetherspoons yesterday and on the table i sat at was a copy of their magazine. In it was a twelve page E.U. referendum special with articles from both sides, (though their chief exec Tim Martin is a confirmed Brexiter). Must admit that i thought it was quite a good read and gave me some insights that the endless media soundbites don.t. If you get a chance to read it, do so and see what you think.
Should be in one on Tuesday night, be sure to have a looksie :y
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Although it is labelled Brexit...This one gives a good insight on how the EU Works. :y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0
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Although it is labelled Brexit...This one gives a good insight on how the EU Works. :y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0
.. and without any hysterical ranting about immigration, too. :y
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Democracy in action isn't very democratic.
In 2015 David Cameron and the Conservative party were elected with just 36% of the vote.
Almost two thirds, 64% of the people who voted, did not vote for the Tories.
Democratic, or not democratic?
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The vote to either remain or leave the EU will be more democratic.
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Democracy in action isn't very democratic.
In 2015 David Cameron and the Conservative party were elected with just 36% of the vote.
Almost two thirds, 64% of the people who voted, did not vote for the Tories.
Democratic, or not democratic?
Dictionary definition of democracy: A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives
So yes, democratic. Your objection is to our first past the post system of electing a government, which usually leads to the statistics you state. But all of the other systems, like proportional representation or eliminating the weaker candidates through further ballots, do the same thing and often lead to impermanent coalitions that are even less satisfactory.
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Democracy in action isn't very democratic.
In 2015 David Cameron and the Conservative party were elected with just 36% of the vote.
Almost two thirds, 64% of the people who voted, did not vote for the Tories.
Democratic, or not democratic?
Dictionary definition of democracy: A system of government by the whole population or all the eligiblemembers of a state, typically through elected representatives
So yes, democratic. Your objection is to our first past the post system of electing a government, which usually leads to the statistics you state. But all of the other systems, like proportional representation or eliminating the weaker candidates through further ballots, do the same thing and often lead to impermanent coalitions which are even less satisfactory.
True.
It seems 'we the people' have democratically elected a government that two out of three of us didn't vote for. ;)
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Went into my local Wetherspoons yesterday and on the table i sat at was a copy of their magazine. In it was a twelve page E.U. referendum special with articles from both sides, (though their chief exec Tim Martin is a confirmed Brexiter). Must admit that i thought it was quite a good read and gave me some insights that the endless media soundbites don.t. If you get a chance to read it, do so and see what you think.
As it happens, I also went into my local Wetherspoons yesterday, and I also took home copy of the said publication.
Looks interesting but not read it yet though ::)
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Democracy in action isn't very democratic.
In 2015 David Cameron and the Conservative party were elected with just 36% of the vote.
Almost two thirds, 64% of the people who voted, did not vote for the Tories.
Democratic, or not democratic?
Dictionary definition of democracy: A system of government by the whole population or all the eligiblemembers of a state, typically through elected representatives
So yes, democratic. Your objection is to our first past the post system of electing a government, which usually leads to the statistics you state. But all of the other systems, like proportional representation or eliminating the weaker candidates through further ballots, do the same thing and often lead to impermanent coalitions which are even less satisfactory.
True.
It seems 'we the people' have democratically elected a government that two out of three of us didn't vote for. ;)
According to Churchill, democracy is the worst possible form of government, apart from all the others.
Our system is a long way from perfect, but the bottom line is that we can actually vote them out. We cant vote out, those who rule us from Brussels. ;)
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He also said, " The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."... although probably not in the same interview ::)
A possible headline for June 22nd... "We stand today at a crossroads: One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other leads to total extinction. Let us hope we have the wisdom to make the right choice."
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Democracy in action isn't very democratic.
In 2015 David Cameron and the Conservative party were elected with just 36% of the vote.
Almost two thirds, 64% of the people who voted, did not vote for the Tories.
Democratic, or not democratic?
Ah yes, had there been a Lab/Lib/SNP/UKIP/Green/BNP/Plaid Cymru/Sinn Fein/SDLP/UUP/APNI coalition before the election, things could have been so different! ::) :)
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Sir Winston Churchill was a wise man, he once said "We have our own dream & our own task .We are with Europe but not combined.We are interested but not absorbed, if Britain must choose between Europe & the open sea she must always choose the open sea."
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Sir Winston Churchill was a wise man, he once said "We have our own dream & our own task .We are with Europe but not combined.We are interested but not absorbed, if Britain must choose between Europe & the open sea she must always choose the open sea."
I'm pro-European and I'm pro-trading with European and the rest of the world, but I'm against being ruled from Brussels by an appointed dictatorship. The 23th June is about being a self governing democracy who we vote in and out or being a province of the EU ruled by a remote unelected omission, who are appointed and we can't vote out.
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Exactly. All the other bullshit about economic matters etc. is just muddying the water, to distract from those all important principles. :y