Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: MrRon on 30 June 2016, 00:56:22
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Which is best?
Between the Omega B1 MV6 Saloon Auto or the B2 MV6 Saloon Manual?
So, Two parts to this enquiry, MV6 B1 or B2? ..... Auto or Manual?
Which combination would you prefer. :D
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Simples 3.2 auto :)
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B1 MV6 Manual though I`ve never driven the 3.2 but I`ve read enough comparisons on here to forget about the 3.2 ;)
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Can't say from personal experience between 3.0 and 3.2s, but given the choice, always PFL / B1. If you want the MV6 then clearly Manual is the way, as it's aimed at being a 'drivers' car, not the relaxed luxury-barge that others are.
As you see in my profile I'm on PFL 2.5 Auto, and very happy with. But a manual 3.0 would be nice to try one day.
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If I was in the market again, I'd go for a factory spec Pre-Facelift MV6 with cloth seats and manual gearbox with the 3.0 :y
Although chances of finding a good one of those are numbered ::)
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But to 'build one' from several cars is very doable, should anyone wish. There's a manual in my local scrappy right now. :)
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But to 'build one' from several cars is very doable, should anyone wish. There's a manual in my local scrappy right now. :)
2.5 or 3ltr ?
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My ideal is probably 3.2 block and heads (or maybe 2.5/2.6 heads ported to get compression ratio up), 3.0 injection setup (SAI and EGR removed), 3.2 exhaust manifolds, 3.0 cats, manual gearbox
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My ideal is probably 3.2 block and heads (or maybe 2.5/2.6 heads ported to get compression ratio up), 3.0 injection setup (SAI and EGR removed), 3.2 exhaust manifolds, 3.0 cats, manual gearbox
I was thinking of most of that when I was trying to sort out a OOF courier for Martin Imbers old ported 2.6 heads :-\
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Myself I have the Face lift MV6 3.0 Manual in Star Silver, it's also got the elite spec.
It still requires some spares, which is why I bought a CDX 2.5 Auto Saloon and the wife loves it! :D
Now after looking online one evening I found a nice example pre-face lift MV6 Saloon but an Auto. ::)
So do I get rid of my other two Omegas? I would miss the Bose sound system. :-\
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Manual definitely, auto has very little appeal to me
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I've have a 3.0 MV6 auto and a 3.2 MV6 auto, the 3.2 kicks the 3.0 into the weeds on performance and both are fairly low milers. 80k and 88k respectively so engines are in good shape, and although I know this will provoke a certain amount of opposite comments, I can only go on what I get from them when given the beans.But both of those cars get a kicking from the 3.2 Elite with nearly a quarter of a million miles on the clock and a remap surprisingly...another 50k and the engine should be run in by then ::)
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Thinking... :-\ there's only one way to settle this........FIGHT!!! how about a trip up to a Thunder Road meet,settle it for once and for all ;) :y and it's a good day as well!
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TB will be along in a moment to tell you that you are wrong, nitro, the 3.0 is infinitely superior to the 3.2 and faster in every regard ;) ;D
For me it'd be a facelift 3.2 manual estate.
Facelift because the PFL is blobby and old looking.
3.2 because it's better.
Manual because real cars have cogs.
Estate because I'm part pikey.
;D ;D
[edit] Basically, Taxi Al's old white estate ;D
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3.2 Manuals for me, currently have one of each Saloon and Estate, both Ex Plod, the Saloon has been Re Mapped and Cat Back Stainless Performance Exhaust and really does motor over standard, also has the added benefit of an LPG Tank in the Boot.
My preference is based on I prefer Manuals, better MPG and a better driver control of the car when you push it, the Police suspension set up was good and suits a Manual Box when being thrown around corners, together with a late year both or 2003 so they need to be 3.2's.
Think if I was to do it all over again I would go down the late 3.0 route, Manual, MV6 or Plod, the 3.0 can easily be brought to 3.2 Power and beyond with some simple Mods and a Re Map, they seem to have more grunt at the top end and are a darn site better on MPG over the 3.2 , or better than standard 3.0 with a simple Re Chip.
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Hence why I would have a 3.2 block (start with max cc), add ported 2.5/2.6 heads to get compression ratio back up (helps economy slightly), 2.6/3.2 exhaust manifolds and 3.0 injection setup (as that gets your economy back) and 3.0 front pipes. :y
Max cc, optimum standard bits and the better non emission restricted injection setup.
I suspect he 3.2 remap is probably simply knocking off a lot of the emission constraints :y
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Can anyone point me in the direction of what works power/suspension wise on the 2.5? Sorry for the hijack!
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3.0 / 3.2 cams is the one upgrade which will make a big difference in power. Around 20bhp if my memory serves.
Suspension - powerflex polbushes in the front of the wishbones MV6 springs (as common as rocking horse manure I'm afraid) Bilstein B4 rear shocks.
Replace all other standard bushes with new ones, as they will probably be knackered. Four wheel alignment done properly at Wheels in Motion, or to Wheels in motions settings.
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Still think this could be sorted and settled properly on the track at Thunder Road...1 straight mile, foot down and flat out,autos against autos,manuals against manuals,then mix 'em up 3.0's against the 'alleged' inferior 3.2's ::) Come on fellas bring your gun to a gun fight...talks cheap!!and of course, that's if you think you're hard enough :P ;D
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Still think this could be sorted and settled properly on the track at Thunder Road...1 straight mile, foot down and flat out,autos against autos,manuals against manuals,then mix 'em up 3.0's against the 'alleged' inferior 3.2's ::) Come on fellas bring your gun to a gun fight...talks cheap!!and of course, that's if you think you're hard enough :P ;D
Excellent, do you want me to bring a Cosworth Ken, I can tow your one behind it, you might be in with a chance then. ;D ;D ;D
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Cosworths? Cosworths? Ohh! I remember them,seen them on the London to Brighton old crocks run,clouds of smoke and bits dropping off them,sort of a Ford Chitty Chitty Bang Bang! :P :P
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The choice has be made...... For me anyway, I shall keep to my MV6 manual.
The repairs are underway please see my next post "What items would you keep"
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TB will be along in a moment to tell you that you are wrong, nitro, the 3.0 is infinitely superior to the 3.2 and faster in every regard ;) ;D
Damn right it is. Quicker and more economical. Whats not to like?
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Still think this could be sorted and settled properly
No need, I already know my 230k 1997 3.0l powered MV6 is quicker than my 112k 3.2 from 2003.
I've also been lucky enough to drive enough Omegas to know that my 3.2 isn't a sluggish example or my 3.0 isn't especially quick for a 3.0l auto.
Both being similar specs, including sunroof, they will be similar weights.
The power delivery is quite different with regard to throttle response, making the 3.2 seem quite eager off the line with minimal throttle movement, something the 3.0l can't do, as the throttle is wholly controlled organically.
The 3.2's disappointment comes from design compromises and silly emissions.
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And lets not forget that in 2016 you're still going to get battered off the line by some little teaspoon sales rep in an 8yr old standard 320d with his aircon on and radio at full volume and 200 sample teaspoons in the boot regardless of whether you have a 3.0 or a 3.2... or a superchip. And he's doing 50mpg plus all day long.
Granted, he's still a loser... but to place importance on the speed of an Omega is rather to miss the point. It isn't "fast" and hasn't been for over 10years. :P
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Has anyone fitted one of these to an omega? as they make a big difference when I fitted one to my old 3.0 vec b.
http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/buy-online/shop-by-category/steel-billet-flywheels/lightweight-flywheel-v6-vectra-b-cavalier-calibra-omega/prod_29.html
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And lets not forget that in 2016 you're still going to get battered off the line by some little teaspoon sales rep in an 8yr old standard 320d with his aircon on and radio at full volume and 200 sample teaspoons in the boot regardless of whether you have a 3.0 or a 3.2... or a superchip. And he's doing 50mpg plus all day long.
Granted, he's still a loser... but to place importance on the speed of an Omega is rather to miss the point. It isn't "fast" and hasn't been for over 10years. :P
Sadly I feel my head (if not heart) agreeing with you. When we look at what engine technology has occurred in the last generation of design, it's stratospheric. Up for criticism, of course, but looking just at Post-War, i'd say the generational leaps were something along the lines of automatic chokes, higher compression, fuel injection, turbochargers, cat converters and electronic management followed by various extra emissions junk. But the most recent seems to have combined superchargers, lighter weight, economy, power, torque, emissions, the ruddy lot. :)
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But a relatively unstressed V6 is (assuming it's well maintained) surely going to be more reliable 10 - 20 years later than a highly strung four pot diesel with a small capacity and large turbo....
Problem I have in looking at other cars is that I just don't like anything in my price range! It takes a lot to surpass that RWD chassis, big car, relaxed V6 combination in my humble opinion.
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The biggest improvement is not the engine: high compression, OHC, multi-valve engines have been around for 100years although they were state of the art, expensive to make and own. Modern machining and metallurgy have made them commonplace.
The real improvement is from engine management. No matter how good even multi-choke carbs are setup, they're still a compromise. Distributor ignitions are even worse; we talk about the timing curve, but even with vacuum advance it is more a matter of a stepped line.
Putting the fuel and spark under purely electronic control means you can give the engine exactly the fuel and spark it needs at exactly the right time. This leads to more power, lower emissions, better fuel economy and improved durability all at the same time. Engine management allows you to do things like cut the fuel with the throttle closed which is where a lot of the economy inprovement comes from. Proof of this easy, just look at engines that were produced with both carbs and management. Ford's Pinto is a good example; a 2.0l with a 32/36DGAV carb is reasonably powerful and will easily give 30mpg in a sensible road car. But take one apart at 100k miles and you'll find bore wear and other damage that you really don't want to see. The EFI Pinto(I've had and worked on several) will give 35mpg in the same car, makes about 15hp more, and will still have the honing marks in the bores at nearly 200k miles.
Unfortunately, we soon hit diminishing returns, and it doesn't take long for the complexity to increase(things like driver by wire, or EGR valves, poorly mounted ECUs) and move to the other side of the curve.
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And lets not forget that in 2016 you're still going to get battered off the line by some little teaspoon sales rep in an 8yr old standard 320d with his aircon on and radio at full volume and 200 sample teaspoons in the boot regardless of whether you have a 3.0 or a 3.2... or a superchip. And he's doing 50mpg plus all day long.
Granted, he's still a loser... but to place importance on the speed of an Omega is rather to miss the point. It isn't "fast" and hasn't been for over 10years. :P
Until the timing chain throws the towel in (and it will) and he comes to a screeching halt with somebody facing a 5k bill to repair ;D
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The biggest improvement is not the engine...
Indeed. It's also as well to remember that engine management is very mature in petrol engines now, with reasonably decent multipoint EFI systems and the requisite components having been in production since the late 1970's (although not widespread then) whereas with diesel engines, it's in its' infancy, relatively speaking, with the attendant reliability.
The main petrol advance in recent years has been direct injection, which is actually what makes the performance of most of the modern crop of turbo petrol lumps look so attractive.. until an injector fails.
The same technology that makes a state of the art petrol engine stand out as exceptional is required on a tractor to make it drivable at all let alone meet any emissions standards!
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And lets not forget that in 2016 you're still going to get battered off the line by some little teaspoon sales rep in an 8yr old standard 320d with his aircon on and radio at full volume and 200 sample teaspoons in the boot regardless of whether you have a 3.0 or a 3.2... or a superchip. And he's doing 50mpg plus all day long.
Granted, he's still a loser... but to place importance on the speed of an Omega is rather to miss the point. It isn't "fast" and hasn't been for over 10years. :P
Until the timing chain throws the towel in (and it will) and he comes to a screeching halt with somebody facing a 5k bill to repair ;D
Granted ;D But as he's pulled away from you on the sliproad that won't make you feel better... well... maybe a bit :D
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And lets not forget that in 2016 you're still going to get battered off the line by some little teaspoon sales rep in an 8yr old standard 320d with his aircon on and radio at full volume and 200 sample teaspoons in the boot regardless of whether you have a 3.0 or a 3.2... or a superchip. And he's doing 50mpg plus all day long.
Granted, he's still a loser... but to place importance on the speed of an Omega is rather to miss the point. It isn't "fast" and hasn't been for over 10years. :P
Sadly I feel my head (if not heart) agreeing with you. When we look at what engine technology has occurred in the last generation of design, it's stratospheric. Up for criticism, of course, but looking just at Post-War, i'd say the generational leaps were something along the lines of automatic chokes, higher compression, fuel injection, turbochargers, cat converters and electronic management followed by various extra emissions junk. But the most recent seems to have combined superchargers, lighter weight, economy, power, torque, emissions, the ruddy lot. :)
Ten years ago when I bought my first omega, an ex ARV for £1300 in police racing white, there was nothing I could hope to own for that money that was as quick and fun to drive whilst also being adult car size rather than some boy racer hatchback. 3.0 Manual with LSD. That'll do! And in 2005 it was, or at least seemed to be, one of the quicker moving vehicles on the road.
These days though, as much as I want to like the omega as that car was the first car I really liked, it falls so short when compared to other premium marques of the same era... BMW, Mercedes even Volvo... in terms of comfort and refinement and power. I've had 3 facelifts now, two estates and in their own ways they've annoyed the sh1t out of me. Too noisy... way way to noisy. And bhp/torque for mpg on the auto is apalling. In fact the AR35 is just not good. The merc and bmw autoboxes are far superior for not slipping and just getting on with the job, not to mention knowing which gear to be in.
One day if a nice PFL MV6 manual crops up I might try and relive the magic of my automotive youth but other than that, I think I'm done with Omegas. Definitely auto ones. :(