Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: TheBoy on 27 July 2008, 11:56:02

Title: WIM meet day
Post by: TheBoy on 27 July 2008, 11:56:02
Vx are going to be doing a roaring trade in wishbone bushes.  Every one so far shot to pieces
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 27 July 2008, 12:13:26
If that causes clonking noises when going over bumps......my n/s front are knackered too  :-[
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: theolodian on 27 July 2008, 12:18:14
Another item for the shop?  ;)
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: v6coop on 27 July 2008, 22:28:07
So how do WIM diagnose them? Is there movement before any visible signs such as splits and cracks?
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: Kevin Wood on 27 July 2008, 22:33:44
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So how do WIM diagnose them? Is there movement before any visible signs such as splits and cracks?

A pry bar and a well calibrated hand. There's always movement in them, it's just the amount of resistance to movement that counts. (stiff resistance = good, flapping around with barely any provocation = bad).

Kevin
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: feeutfo on 28 July 2008, 00:03:03
 
Quote
Quote
So how do WIM diagnose them? Is there movement before any visible signs such as splits and cracks?

A pry bar and a well calibrated hand. There's always movement in them, it's just the amount of resistance to movement that counts. (stiff resistance = good, flapping around with barely any provocation = bad).

Kevin

Probably the best explanation i've seen so far. :y
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 28 July 2008, 00:26:30
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If that causes clonking noises when going over bumps......my n/s front are knackered too  :-[

I think mines gone on the N/S on my GLS, I have a sticking caliper that doesnt help either, been going to sort it for a few weeks now.   ::) :-[

One day.  :-/
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: iggy21uk on 28 July 2008, 00:41:18
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So how do WIM diagnose them? Is there movement before any visible signs such as splits and cracks?

A pry bar and a well calibrated hand. There's always movement in them, it's just the amount of resistance to movement that counts. (stiff resistance = good, flapping around with barely any provocation = bad).  Kevin
Not in the polly bushes the guy had made but only  4 mths old
No movement at all, but does affect theb feel.
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: JueV6 on 28 July 2008, 03:30:49
Thanks to Tony and WIM for a very informative and enjoyable day.
And to TB for doing his magic with the Tech2

No thanks to VX for making Sh!t bushes tho, Mine was the second to go down the scenic bushy route, Still FFc gary thought it was funny that everyones was going out that way till Tony kicked the spring out from under his feet. ::) ::) ::)

"OS Rear springs Broken Gary, Can't adjust it". LOL that made my day. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Ode to Gary, Don't laugh at the misfortunate. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Thanks again all. :y :y :y
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: Jimbob on 28 July 2008, 18:52:37
Glad mine were spot on :)

Got em checked on the Sunday, so I had time to source some for the return trip on Monday  :D
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: zirk on 28 July 2008, 18:56:40
Do I feel a Bush Party coming on then?, I assume its a lot easier on Posters?
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: v6coop on 28 July 2008, 22:57:29
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A pry bar and a well calibrated hand. There's always movement in them, it's just the amount of resistance to movement that counts. (stiff resistance = good, flapping around with barely any provocation = bad).

Thanks Kevin. No substitute for experience then.

One further question. On a previous forum one highly regarded contributor made a specific point of stating that the front horizontal bolts must be torqued up with the weight back on the wheels otherwise if they are tightened when the wheels are hanging you are immediately 'twisting' the bushes when it is lowered to the ground then further adding to it with the movement of the supension over bumps. He claimed this caused premature failure of the front bushes. I don't recall seeing anything specific about this here (must check) but in my experience it is virtually impossible to do this as when the wheels are on the ground as there is not enough clearance to turn the torque wrench on them.

So is this really a problem and if so how are folks getting around it without a car lift or a pit?
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 July 2008, 23:04:41
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So is this really a problem and if so how are folks getting around it without a car lift or a pit?

Yes, IMHO. The bushes are seemingly fragile enough. If they are tightened up in the natural resting position they are being twisted one way or t'other from their "resting" state. If they are tightened up with the load off the suspension they are already deformed before you hit a pot hole and the wheel bounces up, so such undulations will put much more twisting moment on the bushes, resulting in them not lasting as well.

You don't have to tighten to the final torque figure on the ground. Nip them up sitting on the wheels then raise the car for final torquing if that's easier - or put the front end on ramps.

Kevin
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: TheBoy on 29 July 2008, 08:09:39
Quote
Quote
A pry bar and a well calibrated hand. There's always movement in them, it's just the amount of resistance to movement that counts. (stiff resistance = good, flapping around with barely any provocation = bad).

Thanks Kevin. No substitute for experience then.

One further question. On a previous forum one highly regarded contributor made a specific point of stating that the front horizontal bolts must be torqued up with the weight back on the wheels otherwise if they are tightened when the wheels are hanging you are immediately 'twisting' the bushes when it is lowered to the ground then further adding to it with the movement of the supension over bumps. He claimed this caused premature failure of the front bushes. I don't recall seeing anything specific about this here (must check) but in my experience it is virtually impossible to do this as when the wheels are on the ground as there is not enough clearance to turn the torque wrench on them.

So is this really a problem and if so how are folks getting around it without a car lift or a pit?
Absolutely - this may well have been the cause of the premature wear on my MV6 bushes (I simply followed the book of lies).

This time around, they were tightened on the ground, thne raised to get final torque on.
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: alexandjen on 29 July 2008, 08:28:47
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Quote
Quote
A pry bar and a well calibrated hand. There's always movement in them, it's just the amount of resistance to movement that counts. (stiff resistance = good, flapping around with barely any provocation = bad).

Thanks Kevin. No substitute for experience then.

One further question. On a previous forum one highly regarded contributor made a specific point of stating that the front horizontal bolts must be torqued up with the weight back on the wheels otherwise if they are tightened when the wheels are hanging you are immediately 'twisting' the bushes when it is lowered to the ground then further adding to it with the movement of the supension over bumps. He claimed this caused premature failure of the front bushes. I don't recall seeing anything specific about this here (must check) but in my experience it is virtually impossible to do this as when the wheels are on the ground as there is not enough clearance to turn the torque wrench on them.

So is this really a problem and if so how are folks getting around it without a car lift or a pit?
Absolutely - this may well have been the cause of the premature wear on my MV6 bushes (I simply followed the book of lies).

This time around, they were tightened on the ground, thne raised to get final torque on.

Would putting the car on a set of ramps qualify for being on the ground?
Got to change mine soon and have noticed the fact about so little room to get under the car so was thinking maybe tighten the bolts whilst jacked up then drive car onto ramps for final torque setting.
 :-/
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: TheBoy on 29 July 2008, 08:38:51
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Quote
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Quote
A pry bar and a well calibrated hand. There's always movement in them, it's just the amount of resistance to movement that counts. (stiff resistance = good, flapping around with barely any provocation = bad).

Thanks Kevin. No substitute for experience then.

One further question. On a previous forum one highly regarded contributor made a specific point of stating that the front horizontal bolts must be torqued up with the weight back on the wheels otherwise if they are tightened when the wheels are hanging you are immediately 'twisting' the bushes when it is lowered to the ground then further adding to it with the movement of the supension over bumps. He claimed this caused premature failure of the front bushes. I don't recall seeing anything specific about this here (must check) but in my experience it is virtually impossible to do this as when the wheels are on the ground as there is not enough clearance to turn the torque wrench on them.

So is this really a problem and if so how are folks getting around it without a car lift or a pit?
Absolutely - this may well have been the cause of the premature wear on my MV6 bushes (I simply followed the book of lies).

This time around, they were tightened on the ground, thne raised to get final torque on.

Would putting the car on a set of ramps qualify for being on the ground?
Got to change mine soon and have noticed the fact about so little room to get under the car so was thinking maybe tighten the bolts whilst jacked up then drive car onto ramps for final torque setting.
 :-/
No, fit wishbones jacked up, but only do up not even finger tight.  Lower car and bounce a couple of times, then tighten up enough so that it won't move (this is the key bit), then you can jack back up for final torque.
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 29 July 2008, 08:44:50
Quote
Would putting the car on a set of ramps qualify for being on the ground?
Got to change mine soon and have noticed the fact about so little room to get under the car so was thinking maybe tighten the bolts whilst jacked up then drive car onto ramps for final torque setting.
 :-/

Yes, this works fine as the weight is still on the suspension legs.
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: TheBoy on 29 July 2008, 08:51:18
Quote
Quote
Would putting the car on a set of ramps qualify for being on the ground?
Got to change mine soon and have noticed the fact about so little room to get under the car so was thinking maybe tighten the bolts whilst jacked up then drive car onto ramps for final torque setting.
 :-/

Yes, this works fine as the weight is still on the suspension legs.
Are you sure Mr DTM?
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: alexandjen on 29 July 2008, 08:52:59
Thanks guys but I am now confused over your different opinions  :-/

Edit: would it be easier to just change the bushes?
Can this be done without specialist tools?
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: Kevin Wood on 29 July 2008, 09:13:45
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Thanks guys but I am now confused over your different opinions  :-/

Edit: would it be easier to just change the bushes?
Can this be done without specialist tools?

You might have slightly less weight on the front on ramps but the front suspension will be close enough to its' natural resting state.

Changing the bushes requires a press, so not an easy DIY job for most. A local garage might press new bushes in for a few beer tokens if you took the wishbones to them I suppose.

Kevin
Title: Re: WIM meet day
Post by: v6coop on 29 July 2008, 09:43:36
I managed to get around it as I had fitted new wishbones the day before the MOT. I tightened the bolts up as tight as I reasonably could with a ratchet handle then took it for MOT next day. As  I know them quite well I took my torque wrench and ring spanner (to hold the bolt) and at the end of the MOT whilst he was completeing the ticket put it back up in the air slackened them both off and and accurately torqued them up. Not the sort of thing every MOT centre is going to let you do (probably shouldn't under H&S) but worked for me.