Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: STEMO on 13 March 2017, 13:39:51
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I don't know how others feel, but I'm completely with the unions on this one. Apart from the safety issues reference closing the doors, I don't think the unions are making enough of passenger safety during the journey. If there is a problem on board, who can be contacted to raise the alarm? Women already feel vulnerable, how will this help?
And, surely, it must be a fare dodgers dream come true.
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I'm aware that some on here dislike/hate the unions.
However, without the historical influence of the unions the working man would probably still be working a 15 hour day for a loaf of stale bread.
Thank you, comrades. :)
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I don't know how others feel, but I'm completely with the unions on this one. Apart from the safety issues reference closing the doors, I don't think the unions are making enough of passenger safety during the journey. If there is a problem on board, who can be contacted to raise the alarm? Women already feel vulnerable, how will this help?
And, surely, it must be a fare dodgers dream come true.
DLR (Docklands Light Railway) carried 110.2 MILLION** passengers last year without any such problems, so, if they can do it why can't other systems ... simply just unions and "jobs for the boys" .. they couldn't actually give a s*** about passengers who they simply see as a bargaining chip .... IMHO
**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands_Light_Railway
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Docklands light railway is not the 2200 from Sheffield to Leeds, it is a toy train compared to services that travel between big cities. If the unions are only interested in jobs for the boys, then rail companies are only interested in profits. I wouldn't like my wife to be travelling on a late night train with all the associated creeps that come out at that time of night without a rail official on board.
"Excuse me, I think you're sitting in the seat I booked"
"F**k off, bitch"
You know, that kind of thing.
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I'm aware that some on here dislike/hate the unions.
However, without the historical influence of the unions the working man would probably still be working a 15 hour day for a loaf of stale bread.
Thank you, comrades. :)
I'm not over fond of the unions, either, but I feel that in times such as these, they are a necessary evil.
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I'm aware that some on here dislike/hate the unions.
However, without the historical influence of the unions the working man would probably still be working a 15 hour day for a loaf of stale bread.
Thank you, comrades. :)
I'm not over fond of the unions, either, but I feel that in times such as these, they are a necessary evil.
[/quote
I think the unions still have a purpose in 2017. As we are likely to have a Tory government for many years or even decades to come I believe the presence of the unions is even more vital.
This doesn't mean I agree with all their methods. Far from it.
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Docklands light railway is not the 2200 from Sheffield to Leeds, it is a toy train compared to services that travel between big cities. If the unions are only interested in jobs for the boys, then rail companies are only interested in profits. I wouldn't like my wife to be travelling on a late night train with all the associated creeps that come out at that time of night without a rail official on board.
"Excuse me, I think you're sitting in the seat I booked"
"F**k off, bitch"
You know, that kind of thing.
What pisses me off is that the railways are private companies........and yet we, the taxpayer, still contribute billions towards their running costs. Why?
Private companies should stand on their own two feet. We were told that the railways would no longer be a drain on the public purse. >:( >:(
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What pisses me off is that the railways are private companies........and yet we, the taxpayer, still contribute billions towards their running costs. Why?
Private companies should stand on their own two feet. We were told that the railways would no longer be a drain on the public purse. >:( >:(
I can understand this sentiment, but I think that the UK taxpayer contribution needs to be considered in light of what the rail companies have to do. They have to provide a certain number of trains across the entire network, much of which is deperately un-profitable. The 14.25 from Little Dribbling to Upper Drakes Bottom, probably only caries 13 people every week, but the company is required to keep it running under the terms of its agreement. Similarly, rail companies are required to limit price rises on key lines by a certain percentage each year. Clearly certain commuter lines could be made much more profitable for the rail companies were this restriction not in place.
I'm sure that, given total freedom over what trains to run, how often and what to charge for them, the rail companies could operate very happily with no taxpayer contribution. However its very unlikely we'd be as happy with the service as we are now (happy being a relative term ;) ).
As an aside, I found this article quite interesting and it debunks a number of preconceptions about how we are billed for railway usage: http://www.citymetric.com/transport/everything-you-know-about-british-train-fares-wrong-704 (http://www.citymetric.com/transport/everything-you-know-about-british-train-fares-wrong-704).
Back on topic; I am not a huge fan of Unions, but my view is probably coloured by my years working in London and the rather tube drivers who strike any time the wind changes, but in this case I think they have a point. TBH, of the two people on the train, its the driver we should be focusing on getting rid of. All of the recent large rail disasters that spring to mind (German one last year and the Croydon tram crash) have had an element of human error or recklessness which a properly implemented computer system would have prevented from happening. The human in the back is the one we need to be keeping! This is the approach the DLR uses, where it is actually the driver that has been removed, and a "conductor" is often present during peak periods.
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The current proposal is that the doors are closed by the driver and some services may be driver only (which is a system that has operated on the BedPan route for decades), its not a no person on board full stop approach....yet.
The harsh facts are that the 'train manager' is currently advised to steer clear of most on-board disputes anyway.......and many a journey I have taken sees them sat on their arse, hidden away, doing jack.......so some could argue they have made a rod for their own back.
Clearly the door closing bull is a bit of a smoke screen as the modern trains are pretty good at avoiding issues with this.
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What pisses me off is that the railways are private companies........and yet we, the taxpayer, still contribute billions towards their running costs. Why?
Private companies should stand on their own two feet. We were told that the railways would no longer be a drain on the public purse. >:( >:(
I can understand this sentiment, but I think that the UK taxpayer contribution needs to be considered in light of what the rail companies have to do. They have to provide a certain number of trains across the entire network, much of which is deperately un-profitable. The 14.25 from Little Dribbling to Upper Drakes Bottom, probably only caries 13 people every week, but the company is required to keep it running under the terms of its agreement. Similarly, rail companies are required to limit price rises on key lines by a certain percentage each year. Clearly certain commuter lines could be made much more profitable for the rail companies were this restriction not in place.
I'm sure that, given total freedom over what trains to run, how often and what to charge for them, the rail companies could operate very happily with no taxpayer contribution. However its very unlikely we'd be as happy with the service as we are now (happy being a relative term ;) ).
As an aside, I found this article quite interesting and it debunks a number of preconceptions about how we are billed for railway usage: http://www.citymetric.com/transport/everything-you-know-about-british-train-fares-wrong-704 (http://www.citymetric.com/transport/everything-you-know-about-british-train-fares-wrong-704).
Back on topic; I am not a huge fan of Unions, but my view is probably coloured by my years working in London and the rather tube drivers who strike any time the wind changes, but in this case I think they have a point. TBH, of the two people on the train, its the driver we should be focusing on getting rid of. All of the recent large rail disasters that spring to mind (German one last year and the Croydon tram crash) have had an element of human error or recklessness which a properly implemented computer system would have prevented from happening. The human in the back is the one we need to be keeping! This is the approach the DLR uses, where it is actually the driver that has been removed, and a "conductor" is often present during peak periods.
Yes this is much more clear. Is the signal green? Then yes go, Red? No Stop, all of this is already fed into the cabs of trains.
I bet TfL can't wait to introduce this across the network, then later onto main line services.
I travelled on Chiltern trains for years, although they only go to 8 carriages, they are driver only. Never had a problem once! Unions have far to much power to cripple the network, I think my view is sack the lot and employ people who want to work might be a bit extreme. ::) ;D
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TBH, of the two people on the train, its the driver we should be focusing on getting rid of. All of the recent large rail disasters that spring to mind (German one last year and the Croydon tram crash) have had an element of human error or recklessness which a properly implemented computer system would have prevented from happening. The human in the back is the one we need to be keeping! This is the approach the DLR uses, where it is actually the driver that has been removed, and a "conductor" is often present during peak periods.
The issue is that its the driver which is chuffing expensive to remove from the equation as it needs a massive signalling, infrastructure and control system upgrade to make it work.
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TBH, of the two people on the train, its the driver we should be focusing on getting rid of. All of the recent large rail disasters that spring to mind (German one last year and the Croydon tram crash) have had an element of human error or recklessness which a properly implemented computer system would have prevented from happening. The human in the back is the one we need to be keeping! This is the approach the DLR uses, where it is actually the driver that has been removed, and a "conductor" is often present during peak periods.
The issue is that its the driver which is chuffing expensive to remove from the equation as it needs a massive signalling, infrastructure and control system upgrade to make it work.
Is 'chuffing expensive' a steam enthusiast's saying? ;D
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TBH, of the two people on the train, its the driver we should be focusing on getting rid of. All of the recent large rail disasters that spring to mind (German one last year and the Croydon tram crash) have had an element of human error or recklessness which a properly implemented computer system would have prevented from happening. The human in the back is the one we need to be keeping! This is the approach the DLR uses, where it is actually the driver that has been removed, and a "conductor" is often present during peak periods.
The issue is that its the driver which is chuffing expensive to remove from the equation as it needs a massive signalling, infrastructure and control system upgrade to make it work.
Is 'chuffing expensive' a steam enthusiast's saying? ;D
Standard comment from some northern bloke, 'its reet chufin spensive'
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They aren't doing away with the conductor role, merely transferring the door control to the driver... Thereby freeing up the conductor to deal with the passengers.
Unfortunately the unions need to be seen to be doing something to justify their subs, so they will try any and every ploy they can to separate the workforce from the evil management.
Southern staff should be ashamed of themselves for the disruption and misery they inflict on honest, hard working people week in and week out.
Mark my words, unions will carry the Vauxhall name shoulder high through the gates of extinction. Their very notion should be criminalised. Self abusing lady bits to a man >:(
And breathe...
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I think the conductors probably see this as a first step to their demise.
And I didn't realise that conductors were being kept on. Bad reporting somewhere along the line.
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I think the conductors probably see this as a first step to their demise.
And I didn't realise that conductors were being kept on. Bad reporting somewhere along the line.
Unions in this modern era tend to exist by pedalling fear to assist in extraction of the monthly subs....hence the full facts are rarely shouted about.
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God help us when we get driver-less cars then, I wonder whether Google staff will go strike. ::)
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What pisses me off is that the railways are private companies........and yet we, the taxpayer, still contribute billions towards their running costs. Why?
Private companies should stand on their own two feet. We were told that the railways would no longer be a drain on the public purse. >:( >:(
I can understand this sentiment, but I think that the UK taxpayer contribution needs to be considered in light of what the rail companies have to do. They have to provide a certain number of trains across the entire network, much of which is deperately un-profitable. The 14.25 from Little Dribbling to Upper Drakes Bottom, probably only caries 13 people every week, but the company is required to keep it running under the terms of its agreement. Similarly, rail companies are required to limit price rises on key lines by a certain percentage each year. Clearly certain commuter lines could be made much more profitable for the rail companies were this restriction not in place.
I'm sure that, given total freedom over what trains to run, how often and what to charge for them, the rail companies could operate very happily with no taxpayer contribution. However its very unlikely we'd be as happy with the service as we are now (happy being a relative term ;) ).
As an aside, I found this article quite interesting and it debunks a number of preconceptions about how we are billed for railway usage: http://www.citymetric.com/transport/everything-you-know-about-british-train-fares-wrong-704 (http://www.citymetric.com/transport/everything-you-know-about-british-train-fares-wrong-704).
Back on topic; I am not a huge fan of Unions, but my view is probably coloured by my years working in London and the rather tube drivers who strike any time the wind changes, but in this case I think they have a point. TBH, of the two people on the train, its the driver we should be focusing on getting rid of. All of the recent large rail disasters that spring to mind (German one last year and the Croydon tram crash) have had an element of human error or recklessness which a properly implemented computer system would have prevented from happening. The human in the back is the one we need to be keeping! This is the approach the DLR uses, where it is actually the driver that has been removed, and a "conductor" is often present during peak periods.
I very much doubt this, Jimmy.
Despite the taxpayer forever paying out the service is generally poor and expensive. In my view the private rail companies should either piss or get off the pot.
Clearly privatisation does not work when it comes to the railways..........unless of course you are the CEO or shareholder. ::)
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I would close all the branch lines. You know, the ones that don't go to major towns and cities.
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I would close all the branch lines. You know, the ones that don't go to major towns and cities.
I think a certain Dr Beeching beat you to that one, quite some time ago.
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I would close all the branch lines. You know, the ones that don't go to major towns and cities.
I think a certain Dr Beeching beat you to that one, quite some time ago.
Wales. Who goes to Wales? No need for trains going there.
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I very much doubt this, Jimmy.
Despite the taxpayer forever paying out the service is generally poor and expensive. In my view the private rail companies should either piss or get off the pot.
Clearly privatisation does not work when it comes to the railways..........unless of course you are the CEO or shareholder. ::)
Why does a private company exist if not to please its' shareholders and CEO?
Okay, most won't continue to exist without also pleasing at least some customers, unless they are gifted a monopoly by the government. Oh, wait! ::)
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I would close all the branch lines. You know, the ones that don't go to major towns and cities.
I think a certain Dr Beeching beat you to that one, quite some time ago.
Wales. Who goes to Wales? No need for trains going there.
Absolutely right. Stay away, all of you ;D
However, on that note . . . .
Arriva has the rail franchise for most of Wales and some other parts of the UK. Arriva is owned by Deutsche Bahn, which is owned by the German Government.
It's just interesting that the UK de-nationalised, and a foreign government is able to come along provide the service profitably. I use the trains down here quite a lot, with no complaints. In fact if I go off to Swansea or Cardiff I prefer to take the train, means I can have a beer :y
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Well, of course the Krauts run it profitably, they get millions from our government.
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I think the conductors probably see this as a first step to their demise.
And I didn't realise that conductors were being kept on. Bad reporting somewhere along the line.
BBC per chance ::)
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I have sympathy with the argument that the drivers shouldn't be responsible for closing the doors. Because it happens on the DLR doesn't make it right for everywhere else.
However - if this is the real issue, its non of the unions business. Its not the health and safety their members which is the issue. Its the health & safety of the passengers. That isn't the unions responsibility, its the responsibility of management.
The only action the unions need to take is to issue statements to the media stating that they strongly disagree with managements policy,which their members are compelled to work to, and will not be held responsible for it in the event of accidents etc.
Imo, as soon as they go an strike over this, the employer should sack every one of them.
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I have sympathy with the argument that the drivers shouldn't be responsible for closing the doors. Because it happens on the DLR doesn't make it right for everywhere else.
However - if this is the real issue, its non of the unions business. Its not the health and safety their members which is the issue. Its the health & safety of the passengers. That isn't the unions responsibility, its the responsibility of management.
The only action the unions need to take is to issue statements to the media stating that they strongly disagree with managements policy,which their members are compelled to work to, and will not be held responsible for it in the event of accidents etc.
Imo, as soon as they go an strike over this, the employer should sack every one of them.
That's more like it :)
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I thankyou. :D
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At around 30p a mile if you are a sole traveller then I think it competes very well with being the only person in a car. Where it can't compete is when you have a car full. Although if you are travelling off-peak as a group you can save up to 50% of the fare by asking for a group reduction.
The current disputes have nothing what-so-ever to do with safety or working conditions and everything to do with Marxist union leaders trying to bring down the Tories politics. Personally in return I think the government should make strikes on such essential services illegal with disputes being forced to binding arbitration. Southern region was picked for this due to more direct government involvement in running this service than with other franchises. >:( >:( >:(
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At around 30p a mile if you are a sole traveller then I think it competes very well with being the only person in a car. Where it can't compete is when you have a car full. Although if you are travelling off-peak as a group you can save up to 50% of the fare by asking for a group reduction.
The current disputes have nothing what-so-ever to do with safety or working conditions and everything to do with Marxist union leaders trying to bring down the Tories politics. Personally in return I think the government should make strikes on such essential services illegal with disputes being forced to binding arbitration. Southern region was picked for this due to more direct government involvement in running this service than with other franchises. >:( >:( >:(
Reality is that this between the train operating company (TOC) and the unions....
That said, the rail industry is a closed chop and over the years has happily shot themselves in the foot many times and may well do here.
There are many services on the main network where the doors are driver operated, as said the BedPan, a few Chiltern, some of the Southern, its not just the DLR Tonka specials.
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In agreement with the Liverpool bloke.
there are many people who need assistance to board trains, and disembark, the guards do this very valuable task, if the guards go, assisted boarding will disappear. just a way for train company's to make more profit,
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True. IF they were actually getting rid of them...
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In agreement with the Liverpool bloke.
there are many people who need assistance to board trains, and disembark, the guards do this very valuable task, if the guards go, assisted boarding will disappear. just a way for train company's to make more profit,
And its not like its something that can't equally be served by the station staff (who would also have to support them anyway in/out of the station)
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At around 30p a mile if you are a sole traveller then I think it competes very well with being the only person in a car. Where it can't compete is when you have a car full. Although if you are travelling off-peak as a group you can save up to 50% of the fare by asking for a group reduction.
The current disputes have nothing what-so-ever to do with safety or working conditions and everything to do with Marxist union leaders trying to bring down the Tories politics. Personally in return I think the government should make strikes on such essential services illegal with disputes being forced to binding arbitration. Southern region was picked for this due to more direct government involvement in running this service than with other franchises. >:( >:( >:(
There are other considerations, Mr Rods.
Sitting next to the great unwashed who fart, puke, swear, and smell like STMO's under garments. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend had a man self-abusing beneath a copy of the Financial Times sitting opposite her. Proper city gent he was, apparently.
Nah....I'd rather take my car or Learjet. :y
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Nah....I rather take my car or Learjet. :y
Just don't ask the pilot to close the door. ::)
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Sitting next to the great unwashed who fart, puke, swear, and smell like STMO's under garments.
SWMBO is at a hospital appointment in Oxford today and decided to take the train. This pretty much matched her experience today, except you forgot to mention people coughing their disease of choice into your face. >:(. Sounds delightful.
I drive. Everywhere
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In agreement with the Liverpool bloke.
there are many people who need assistance to board trains, and disembark, the guards do this very valuable task, if the guards go, assisted boarding will disappear. just a way for train company's to make more profit,
This may (or may not) be a legitimate point of view, but what has it got to do with the unions ? If Vauxhall were selling cars which had a safety risk to their customers (such as spontaneously combusting ::) ) would the unions at the factories call the workers out on strike ?
It seems clear that the real reasons for the strike are they suspect job cuts in the pipeline, and of course we have a Tory Govt. and that in itself seems to be deemed a legitimate reason to strike.
One of the rail union leaders said at a union meeting last year, regarding the Tories "if we individually spit at them it has no effect, but if we all spit together, we can drown the bastards".
Charming, intelligent fella. :)
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Vermin and should be treated as such.
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Vermin and should be treated as such.
Very.....ermmmm.....unintelligible ;D
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At around 30p a mile if you are a sole traveller then I think it competes very well with being the only person in a car. Where it can't compete is when you have a car full. Although if you are travelling off-peak as a group you can save up to 50% of the fare by asking for a group reduction.
The current disputes have nothing what-so-ever to do with safety or working conditions and everything to do with Marxist union leaders trying to bring down the Tories politics. Personally in return I think the government should make strikes on such essential services illegal with disputes being forced to binding arbitration. Southern region was picked for this due to more direct government involvement in running this service than with other franchises. >:( >:( >:(
There are other considerations, Mr Rods.
Sitting next to the great unwashed who fart, puke, swear, and smell like STMO's under garments. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend had a man self-abusing beneath a copy of the Financial Times sitting opposite her. Proper city gent he was, apparently.
Nah....I'd rather take my car or Learjet. :y
Luxury, pure luxury, compared to rural France. :o :o :o
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The current disputes have nothing what-so-ever to do with safety or working conditions
Whilst I'm unaware of any threat to your own employment, I'm fully aware of your misinformed belief here.
I'm wondering ... what vocational experience/qualifications do you hold to substantiate such a ludicrous statement?
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DLR (Docklands Light Railway) carried 110.2 MILLION** passengers last year without any such problems, so, if they can do it why can't other systems ... simply just unions and "jobs for the boys" .. they couldn't actually give a s*** about passengers who they simply see as a bargaining chip .... IMHO
It's purely your 'humble opinion' ... end of. Reality is otherwise.
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I don't know how others feel, but I'm completely with the unions on this one. Apart from the safety issues reference closing the doors, I don't think the unions are making enough of passenger safety during the journey. If there is a problem on board, who can be contacted to raise the alarm? Women already feel vulnerable, how will this help?
And, surely, it must be a fare dodgers dream come true.
Fair play, you've pretty well hit the nail on the head here STEMO.
I don't frequent OOF very often these days ... and note that the (misinformed) keyboard warriors remain alive. Nowt changes ... it would seem!
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Seth - lets assume your right about the dispute being purely about passenger safety. As I said in a previous post, it is not the responsibility of the unions to fix that. It is the responsibility of management. All the unions need to do is let it be known tat they strongly disagree with it and their members will not be held responsible if any accidents occur because of it.
No reason or justification at all for them to take industrial action over a matter which they are not responsible for.
If it involved the health & safety of the union members it would be a different matter, but it doesn't.
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Any health and safety training course will start of by telling you that you are responsible for the safety of yourself, your workmates and just about everyone in the world.
Of course the unions are worried about job losses, isn't that what unions are for?
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Any health and safety training course will start of by telling you that you are responsible for the safety of yourself, your workmates and just about everyone in the world.
Of course the unions are worried about job losses, isn't that what unions are for?
No. The unions are worried about lost subs resulting from non existent job cuts. A thousand jobs lost would see their income drop £20k a month. Bizarrely, they seem to approach this issues by forcing companies to cease being profitable by way of coercing staff into having three working days off each week... ::)
If I were Southern, I would be taking the various unions to court for loss of public confidence and revenue... There reputation as Connex was bad enough, but following the last two years of cancellations and dire service it really is in the toilet.
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Any health and safety training course will start of by telling you that you are responsible for the safety of yourself, your workmates and just about everyone in the world.
Of course the unions are worried about job losses, isn't that what unions are for?
No. The unions are worried about lost subs resulting from non existent job cuts. A thousand jobs lost would see their income drop £20k a month. Bizarrely, they seem to approach this issues by forcing companies to cease being profitable by way of coercing staff into having three working days off each week... ::)
If I were Southern, I would be taking the various unions to court for loss of public confidence and revenue... There reputation as Connex was bad enough, but following the last two years of cancellations and dire service it really is in the toilet.
But you're not Southern, nor are you ever likely to be. ;D I'm sure their legal eagles were way ahead of you, but it's obviously not an option. I suppose you could always ring up and check that they're not missing a trick. ::)
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Or they simply don't care...
I might use the trains once a year, and only if really desperate, so the behaviour of them and the unions is of little personal concern. However I do know people who have faced disciplinary action due to being unable to get to work on time due the horrific levels of service :-\
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Or they simply don't care...
I might use the trains once a year, and only if really desperate, so the behaviour of them and the unions is of little personal concern. However I do know people who have faced disciplinary action due to being unable to get to work on time due the horrific levels of service :-\
Then these people need to leave their tyrannical bosses and get a job on the railways. I believe they're very understanding there. ;D
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Southern have taken the unions to court, just before Christmas, on the basis on how it was adversely affecting their customers and they lost. :(
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Merseyrail are to strike on the day of the grand national. Did anyone see that coming? ::)
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Merseyrail are to strike on the day of the grand national. Did anyone see that coming? ::)
I mean... like... who'dve thunk it... ::)