Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: omega2018 on 28 May 2017, 17:28:35
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after about 20 minutes happy driving the engine just stopped, i glided to a stop and re-started it, fine then 5 minutes later same again. And again. No pedal trick codes or eml light either time. will put my cheap scanner on it tomorrow but any ideas? doesn't seem similar to the crank sensor that went 12,000 miles ago. cam sensor perhaps? or oil in the plugs? half tank of petrol. car now done 102K.
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Sounds very similar to what happened to mine a couple of months ago. It was the crank sensor.
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Disconnect the MAF sensor and see if that helps. The EML will be on, but it will go out once the MAF is reconnected
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Sounds very similar to what happened to mine a couple of months ago. It was the crank sensor.
thanks could be that but when mine went before there was a warning sign - failure to start on first turn about 1 in 10 goes, then when it went it was an hour after I had parked the car from a long run and it would not fire at all. then another hour later, with the recovery truck attending, it fired straight away. this time it has different symptoms.
only slightly out of the ordinary thing today was hot weather, air con on full and start stop traffic driving before it died , temperature gauge was a bit high - will try unplugging MAF but how long to run without it connected?
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Until you plug it back in ;)
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forgot to mention the engine was at low revs (<2000) each time it died so I think so MAF could be the problem.
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plugged in the cheapo elm scanner today, no error codes no problems showing but more data than i know what to do with. anything i should look for? air flow looks ok, increases with revs as you'd expect. unable to reproduce stall problem but this was just testing while stationary:
OBD-II Diagnostic Report
Phone:
Fax:
Email:
Internet:
Customer Address Vehicle Info
Make:
Model:
Year:
Registration-No:
Vehicle Information (Mode 09)
Description Count
System Status (Mode 01)
Description
OBD Type
OBD Type EOBD
Trouble Codes
MIL Status Off
Number of DTCs 0
Continuous Monitoring tests
Misfire Supported Complete
Fuel System Supported Complete
Comprehensive Components Supported Complete
non-Continuous Monitoring tests
Catalyst Supported Complete
Heated Catalyst Not Supported
Evaporative System Not Supported
Secondary Air System Not Supported
A/C System Refrigerant Not Supported
Oxygen Sensor Supported Complete
Oxygen Sensor Heater Supported Complete
EGR System Not Supported
Fuel System Status
Fuel System 1 Status closed loop
Fuel System 2 Status closed loop
Diagnostic Trouble Codes (Mode 03, 07, 0A)
Description
Stored Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) (Mode 03)
No Trouble Codes
Pending Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) (Mode 07)
No Trouble Codes
Permanent Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) (Mode 0A)
No Trouble Codes
Freeze Frame Data (Mode 02)
Description Value Units
Location of Oxygen Sensors
Location of Oxygen Sensors State
Bank 1 - Sensor 1 Present
Bank 1 - Sensor 2 Present
Bank 1 - Sensor 3 Not Present
Bank 1 - Sensor 4 Not Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 1 Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 2 Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 3 Not Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 4 Not Present
Oxygen Sensor Test Results (Mode 05)
Description Value Min Max Units Result
Monitored Test Results (Mode 06)
Description Value Min Max Units Result
TID $01, CID $05 - Values defined by manufacturer 55 140 Pass
TID $01, CID $06 - Values defined by manufacturer 56 140 Pass
Live Data (Mode 01)
Description Value Units Min Average Max
03 - Fuel System Status
Fuel System 1 closed loop - 2.00 2.00 2.00
Fuel System 2 closed loop - 2.00 2.00 2.00
04 - Calculated Load Value 2 % 2.35 2.35 2.35
05 - Engine Coolant Temperature 208 °F 208.40 208.40 208.40
06 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 -1.6 % -1.56 0.65 3.13
07 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 1.6 % 1.56 1.56 1.56
08 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 -3.1 % -3.13 -3.13 -3.13
09 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 0.8 % 0.78 0.78 0.78
0C - Engine RPM 665 rpm 643.75 655.25 664.75
0D - Vehicle Speed 0 mph 0.00 0.00 0.00
0E - Ignition Timing Advance for #1 Cylinder 2 ° 2.00 3.20 4.50
0F - Intake Air Temperature 136.40 °F 136.40 136.40 136.40
10 - Air Flow Rate 0.46 lb/min 0.46 0.46 0.46
11 - Absolute Throttle Position 2.0 % 1.96 1.96 1.96
14 - Bank 1 - Sensor 1
Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage 0.110 V 0.09 0.19 0.51
Short Term Fuel Trim -0.8 % -0.78 0.47 1.56
15 - Bank 1 - Sensor 2
Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage 0.710 V 0.60 0.67 0.71
Short Term Fuel Trim 99.2 % 99.21 99.21 99.21
18 - Bank 2 - Sensor 1
Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage 0.120 V 0.09 0.23 0.71
Short Term Fuel Trim -0.8 % -1.56 0.00 1.56
19 - Bank 2 - Sensor 2
Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage 0.690 V 0.59 0.66 0.71
Short Term Fuel Trim 99.2 % 99.21 99.21 99.21
21 - Distance Travelled While MIL is Activated 0 miles 0.00 0.00 0.00
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Before you unplug, can you get a MAF reading (ideally in kg/hr) at idle, and post up
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Before you unplug, can you get a MAF reading (ideally in kg/hr) at idle, and post up
10 - Air Flow Rate 0.46 lb/min 0.46 0.46 0.46
about 12.5 kg/hr if my maths is up to scratch (x 60min / 2.2 lb/kg)
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well spotted and good maths
min avg max
0.46 lb/min 0.46 0.46 0.46
here are the Nov 2013 figures, same engine at 78K miles (currently 102K)
0.40 lb/min 0.36 0.38 0.43
0.36 lb/min 0.36 0.37 0.40
0.36 lb/min 0.36 0.37 0.40
All figures would have been at idle I think. So up a bit from 2013, maybe the colder air in november? i have some graphs from 2013 for a run I did , 13 variables (fuel trim, ign timing, oxy sensor etc..) but missing air flow unfortunately. as i said though this time the air flow seemed to rise with revs as you would expect.
Just took the MAF out, looks clean but will spray with contact cleaner. tried to remove the actual sensor from the large tube, i have some security bits to undo the poled screws but they are 5 sided not the usual 6 so can't undo them >:(.
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but will spray with contact cleaner
DONT!!!
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Before you unplug, can you get a MAF reading (ideally in kg/hr) at idle, and post up
10 - Air Flow Rate 0.46 lb/min 0.46 0.46 0.46
about 12.5 kg/hr if my maths is up to scratch (x 60min / 2.2 lb/kg)
Seems about right for a smaller variant v6 :)
So, I'd be suspicious of crank sensor in this case ;)
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just took it for a 28 mile motorway run after the MAF clean, no problems in fact mpg looks slightly better but on return I left it idling, lumpily, and it stalled. twice. plus now an error code at last
PO305 cylinder 5 misfire on my scanner and on the pedal trick 2 codes:
P0300 random misfire and P0305 cylinder 5 misfire.
i suspect MFL might cause that but i need to check the plug wells for oil leaks, looks like i have to undo the cover on the fl, before it was just pull the plug leads.
doesn't feel the same as the last crank sensor failure, it always seems to start ok.
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Two bolts frees the cable tray and two more frees the coilpack... hardly difficult ::)
All six plugs can be changed in half an hour, including a cuppa ;) assuming of course that the plug wells aren't full of oil/water :D
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Two bolts frees the cable tray and two more frees the coilpack... hardly difficult ::)
its not difficult but its a lot more hassle than the 5 secs it takes on a pfl and more than you describe above >:( . Fl - undo two bolts, get two slightly larger bolts and screw them what looks like the thread of the ones you have just removed, pull on both bolts to half pull out the coil pack, now try and unplug the coil connector which is fiddly you have to press a latch you can't see, now unclip the two cooling pipes in two locations and push the pipes out of the way, now undo two bolts to try and move the fuel pipes which don't move anyway, now try and manoeuvre out the coil pack. Done. but now you have to replace. and that's just the drivers side without having to move a cable tray.
anyway i have now checked the drivers side, cylinder plug 1 is bone dry, 3 and 5 had a tiny amount of oil at the bottom, maybe 1/4 teaspoon or less. the rubbers look fine. surely not enough to cause a misfire is it, not to mention the stalling problem?
I cleaned out the oil and connectors , and slightly upped the torque on all the cam gasket bolts from 8 to 9nm (two are pigs to get at). i don';t have the gaskets or the will to replace them at the moment but i will check it again later.
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Man up... Only need to remove the two coil pack bolts on the 135 bank and unplug it. Hoik it out by the plug socket, roll it out towards the wing and call it done ;D
Takes longer to type than to do...
In my limited defence, I changed my plugs ever 20K, so four months or so... Bit of practice.
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Man up... Only need to remove the two coil pack bolts on the 135 bank and unplug it. Hoik it out by the plug socket
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90670.0 ::)
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Any corrosion around the coils? on the 135 coil pack?
What was the plug like on 5?
Regarding the stalling, I doubt losing one cylinder (Cylinder 5 according to your DTC's) would cause it to stall, with the other symptoms i'd be pretty convinced that's a crank sensor failing.
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3.2 will run on 3. Doesn't rev particularly well mind :-X
Can't see the 2.6 being any different ;)
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Any corrosion around the coils? on the 135 coil pack?
What was the plug like on 5?
Regarding the stalling, I doubt losing one cylinder (Cylinder 5 according to your DTC's) would cause it to stall, with the other symptoms i'd be pretty convinced that's a crank sensor failing.
bit of alu corrosion dust around 1 which was very dry but nothing much, coil packs looked in very good condition, 3 and 5 rubbers and pit looked very clean thanks to the slight oil treatment.
couldn't get the plug out, my halfords set doesn't seem to have a socket that fits. must have one somewhere as I changed all 6 30k miles ago. have ordered some new plugs and will change them all and check for further oil at the same time.
i think the misfire is a symptom of the stall not vice versa. so yes it is looking like the crank sensor even though the fail symptoms are different to last time. i'm reluctant to accept my lovely and quality Delphi crank sensor has failed after only 12K miles but forum wisdom of 'OEM only crank sensors' would be vindicated :-[.
could still be MAF though ??? it has done 102K miles most of it without my care and attention.
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If the MAF has had contact cleaner on it, that will soon be shagged, if not already.
Worth checking for oil, and state of plugs, and resolve any issue along the way.
Are the LTFTs deviating from 0%?
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If the MAF has had contact cleaner on it, that will soon be shagged, if not already.
Worth checking for oil, and state of plugs, and resolve any issue along the way.
Are the LTFTs deviating from 0%?
contact cleaner was of the 'no residue' type.
yes the LTFTs are out now here they are back in 2013:
Description Value Units Min Average Max
03 - Fuel System Status
Fuel System 1 closed loop - 2.00 2.00 2.00
Fuel System 2 closed loop - 2.00 2.00 2.00
04 - Calculated Load Value 2 % 1.96 1.97 2.35
05 - Engine Coolant Temperature 208 °F 188.60 197.60 208.40
06 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 1.6 % 0.78 0.13 1.56
07 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 0.0 % 0.00 0.00 0.00
08 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 1.6 % -1.56 -0.08 1.56
09 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 0.0 % 0.00 0.00 0.00
and now:
Description Value Units Min Average Max
03 - Fuel System Status
Fuel System 1 closed loop - 2.00 2.00 2.00
Fuel System 2 closed loop - 2.00 2.00 2.00
04 - Calculated Load Value 2 % 2.35 2.35 2.35
05 - Engine Coolant Temperature 208 °F 208.40 208.40 208.40
06 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 -1.6 % -1.56 0.65 3.13
07 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 1.6 % 1.56 1.56 1.56
08 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 -3.1 % -3.13 -3.13 -3.13
09 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 0.8 % 0.78 0.78 0.78
what's that about then?
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Assuming not LPG, carefully check for airleaks in the intake and exhaust.
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Were those readings before or after you shafted the maf with contact cleaner, btw?
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Leave idling 15mins, re-read the LTFTs
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Were those readings before or after you shafted the maf with contact cleaner, btw?
both.
is there some theory behind MAFs being shafted by contact cleaner?
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Were those readings before or after you shafted the maf with contact cleaner, btw?
both.
Great, so we're not fighting faults put on after, at the moment :y
is there some theory behind MAFs being shafted by contact cleaner?
Its ultimately a solvent. Everybody tries it once, thinking its smart, then grumbles GM want £250 for an unshagged one ;). And contact cleaner has never, ever, ever fixed a hot wire type MAF. So much (financial) pain for zero gain :(
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these symtoms are so different to last time my crank sensor went. then it failed it start on very first turn about 1 times in ten, months before the failure.
then when it went completely, the car just wouldn't start 1 hour after a long run. not matter how many turns (i have a diesel size battery) 2 hours later it would and didn't fail again before i replaced it.
this time its stalled while driving in traffic at about 2k revs and idles badly sometimes. feels very different to the last time.
so has anyone had the second symptoms only and fixed it with a new crank sensor?
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this time its stalled while driving in traffic at about 2k revs
Were revs steady-ish at 2k rpm when the engine suddenly cut?
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Fuel pump?
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this time its stalled while driving in traffic at about 2k revs
Were revs steady-ish at 2k rpm when the engine suddenly cut?
yes probably i normally drive at 2K and in 5th gear, even for roundabouts. just took the car out again and it stalled at speed around 3K revs I think. switched off engine while rolling and re-started in neutral, fine.
now you've got me looking at LTFT here are the lastest at idle:
07 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 0.0 %
09 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 -1.6 %
compared to yesterday before I cleaned the bank 1 plugs:
07 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 2.3 %
09 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 1.6 %
so looks like just a small amount of oil in the plug wells 3 and 5 may have put the fuel trim out and maybe bank 2 is also in oil, will check when the new plugs arrive.
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Lets clear the trims so we're starting at a known base. So, assuming your reader lacks the direct capability (and unless its a genuine Tech2, or high quality generic one like the Span-off ones, then it probably won't have a reliable one), purposely put on a fault code (unplug maf, or a multiram or knock sensor), drive for 500yrs letting revs get up to 3k. Then plug everything back in, and immediate clear all fault codes.
This *should* reset LTFT to 0%. Which gives us a base to work from.
It will still be the crank sensor that's at fault, but I know you want to explore other options as well :). Incidentally, when you last changed the crank sensor, where did you buy it from?
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It will still be the crank sensor that's at fault, but I know you want to explore other options as well :). Incidentally, when you last changed the crank sensor, where did you buy it from?
you're going to hate this....
it was ebay. however it was a genuine delphi sensor complete with hologrammed box. I migth just swap it out if you think that is it i have a spare and will be off to france with the car next weekend if it is fixed.
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It will still be the crank sensor that's at fault, but I know you want to explore other options as well :). Incidentally, when you last changed the crank sensor, where did you buy it from?
you're going to hate this....
it was ebay. however it was a genuine delphi sensor complete with hologrammed box. I migth just swap it out if you think that is it i have a spare and will be off to france with the car next weekend if it is fixed.
Buy a genuine one from a dealer. Delphi is just pattern crap, and experience on OOF tells us pattern V6 crank sensors do not last long. Don't buy a genuine GM one from egay or amazon marketplace or the like.
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Lets clear the trims so we're starting at a known base. So, assuming your reader lacks the direct capability (and unless its a genuine Tech2, or high quality generic one like the Span-off ones, then it probably won't have a reliable one), purposely put on a fault code (unplug maf, or a multiram or knock sensor), drive for 500yrs letting revs get up to 3k. Then plug everything back in, and immediate clear all fault codes.
This *should* reset LTFT to 0%. Which gives us a base to work from.
Seems my cheapo scanner can reset all fault codes and trims so no need to force an error. :y
changed the plugs today , all look normal for 30K miles. 1 and 2 completely dry, 3 and 5 tiny bit of oil, 4 and 6 just a trace of oil.
took it for a run again, no faults this time. idling doesn't seem as smooth as it was before all this but difficult to tell.
Here is a plot of the LTFTs and other items (revs divided by 1,000, speed by 10). Basically a 25 minute drive onto a motorway, steady 58mph then back onto a roads.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hOpvYF/postspark_graph.jpg)
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should add my mention of oil and plugs was about the plug wells not the plugs themselves. the plug tips were all dry and tanned, no oil or soot.
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Oil in the wells could affect spark, esp under load.
I'm thinking airleak, bank 1, is whats cause LTFT B1 to drift. But I don't think that is the reason for the cutting out.
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here are the plugs at 29K miles
(https://image.ibb.co/nF9o5v/spark_plugs_june_2017s.jpg)
plug 4 does look a bit yellow... this is listed as "lead fouling" which seems unlikely nowadays. especially on just one cylinder https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/faqs/spark-plug-faqs/how-do-i-read-a-spark-plug (https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/faqs/spark-plug-faqs/how-do-i-read-a-spark-plug)
some more info - bottom steel cover of bank 1 cat has gone awol and there was a tiny leak after the cat in the exhaust for bank 1. I don't think that will affect much though.
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Oil in the wells could affect spark, esp under load.
I'm thinking airleak, bank 1, is whats cause LTFT B1 to drift. But I don't think that is the reason for the cutting out.
on the graph the airflow figures seem to bounce around a lot given the steady revs at 58mph. i wonder if it is a problem with the MAF after all?
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anyone think this could be the cam sensor? i've still got chance to buy a spare before going to france at the weekend. i already have a spare crank sensor
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I would be surprised. Cam sensor is only really vital to get the phase of the cams after engine start. It probably doesn't get used once the engine is running, so I doubt it would cause a stall.
Plus, they very rarely fail on a V6.
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Oil in the wells could affect spark, esp under load.
I'm thinking airleak, bank 1, is whats cause LTFT B1 to drift. But I don't think that is the reason for the cutting out.
on the graph the airflow figures seem to bounce around a lot given the steady revs at 58mph. i wonder if it is a problem with the MAF after all?
Given the solvents you've sprayed on it, the MAF will soon be toast anyway....
...but if it was MAF, both LTFTs will go in the same direction, not one each way.
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i take the point that the MAF should affect both ltfts the same.
i still don't get this solvent issue. solvents don't normally dissolve metal do they? surely not contact cleaner anyway.
short drive in town today, behaved perfectly :-\ :) :-\
spare cam sensor arrives tomorrow just in case, cheaper than european breakdown cover which i can't get anyway (car >12 years old).
from what i've read no point carrying a spare MAF since i can just unplug it.
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actually looking at my graph again the ltfts did move together
(https://preview.ibb.co/hOpvYF/postspark_graph.jpg).
both ended up above zero
maybe the solvent cleaning of the MAF fixed it ;)
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If taking it abroad, esp without breakdown cover (which is crazy), take a crank sensor.
As said, the MAF may well be BF'd, but that's more likely a symptom of the solvent. The engine cutting out is likely to be something else. And we all know what. So take one.
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If taking it abroad, esp without breakdown cover (which is crazy), take a crank sensor.
As said, the MAF may well be BF'd, but that's more likely a symptom of the solvent. The engine cutting out is likely to be something else. And we all know what. So take one.
i always carry a spare crank sensor. :y
i can't get breakdown cover with recovery for europe as the car is over 12 years old. anyway if i could, in the small print it would say 'repatriation of car or cash value of the car if that is less' >:(. cash value of the car is about £500 ???
she broke down today on the way to pick up the cam sensor. stalled would not re-start. re-started after a few minutes wait. broke down again after picking up the cam sensor. would not re-start at all (but unlike the previous crank sensor failure 2 years ago, she fired up every time but would not reach tickover). so unplugged MAF, no difference. So fitted new cam sensor, no difference. unplugged crank sensor and re-plugged, no difference. left for 5 minutes then she started and ran fine back to home. no pedal codes throughout.
incidentally it seems to be driving in traffic in hot weather that makes it worse.
i conclude it is most likely the crank sensor. i could easily replace it today but as i'm not 100% sure that will fix it and there isn't enough time to test it with new sensor i have re-booked the ferry - we are going in a crappy mitsubishi colt instead :(
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If you aren't prepared to fit a decent, ie genuine, crank sensor then what do you expect?
I genuinely feel sorry for your fellow passengers who will have to wait for you to be dragged off the ferry when it cuts out again.
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If you aren't prepared to fit a decent, ie genuine, crank sensor then what do you expect?
I genuinely feel sorry for your fellow passengers who will have to wait for you to be dragged off the ferry when it cuts out again.
the current sensor is a genuine Delphi sensor. Delphi automotive is a well known brand, one of the world's largest automotive parts manufacturers. it was set up by general motors (vauxhall) in 1994. a lot of mig original parts are Delphi. my brake pads are Delphi. so Delphi are a 'decent' brand.
i think you may be having trouble reading (perhaps its all those copper molecules in the environment ;D). we are going on the ferry in a mitsubishi colt not the mig.
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I can read perfectly well thank you. This is the first you mention of not taking the Omega...
Delphi did indeed manufacturer all sorts of shit for the Omega assembly line. Unfortunately not the crank sensors. But hey, wtf do I know ::)
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ive heard this issue time and time sgain on here. can anyone please explain what the actual difference is with a gm sensor that no other company can manage to reproduce ? . what bit is actually different / better .? is it something in the sensor or is it the cable
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Nobody knows... But, shock horror..., genuine sourced from an actual GM dealer that you actually walk into works 999 times of 1000, whereas ebay specials regardless of brand have a success rate of more like 1 in 1000.
Two cheap sensors will pay for the actual genuine one...
At those odds, who needs non genuine ::)
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I can read perfectly well thank you. This is the first you mention of not taking the Omega...
i conclude it is most likely the crank sensor. i could easily replace it today but as i'm not 100% sure that will fix it and there isn't enough time to test it with new sensor i have re-booked the ferry - we are going in a crappy mitsubishi colt instead :(
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Nobody knows... But, shock horror..., genuine sourced from an actual GM dealer that you actually walk into works 999 times of 1000, whereas ebay specials regardless of brand have a success rate of more like 1 in 1000.
Two cheap sensors will pay for the actual genuine one...
At those odds, who needs non genuine ::)
the original crank sensor fitted to the omega, and the ones you would get from a GM dealer now, are not GM they are Bosch ::) Or Siemens ::)
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Both provided them to the factory... :-X
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I agree original is usually better than pattern in lots of things but from an enginnering point of view i myself would like to know what the difference is. When a crank sensor fails.be it original or cheap one what actually stops happening ?.does something go open circiut or what ? . Anyone any ideas.
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I agree original is usually better than pattern in lots of things but from an enginnering point of view i myself would like to know what the difference is. When a crank sensor fails.be it original or cheap one what actually stops happening ?.does something go open circiut or what ? . Anyone any ideas.
Cam and crank sensors are 'hall effect' devices.....this link might be interesting to you....
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/Counterpoint3_1.pdf
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I personally don't think the sensor dies, I think the cable goes brittle and breaks down due to the heat.
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I agree original is usually better than pattern in lots of things but from an enginnering point of view i myself would like to know what the difference is. When a crank sensor fails.be it original or cheap one what actually stops happening ?.does something go open circiut or what ? . Anyone any ideas.
Cam and crank sensors are 'hall effect' devices.....this link might be interesting to you....
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/Counterpoint3_1.pdf
Are you sure about the crank sensor?
My understanding is that the cam sensors are hall effect sensors because they need to sense a fairly low frequency event (once every cam revolution - at 6000 crankshaft rpm the cam will rotate 50 times per second so the maximum frequency for an Omega would be about 50 Hz) At idle, say 600rpm, the frequency would be 5Hz . A simple wound coil would struggle to generate a strong enough signal for the ECU.
The crank sensor is triggered by a series of slots in a wheel at the rear of the crank. 36 teeth or slots is a common (I haven't seen how many are used in the Omega). 36 x 6000rpm / 60 seconds = 3600 Hz (3.6 kHz). 36 x 600rpm /60 seconds = 360 Hz. Hall effect sensors are available that work up to 10kHz but a simple wound sensor will work fine over that range of frequencies.
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Yep, the crank sensor is a variable reluctance sensor (coil of wire around a magnet).
Often, cam sensors are as well. The low speed is accommodated by driving the coil with a high frequency signal instead of biasing it with a magnet. Proximity of metal parts causes more current to be drawn by the coil as its output sets up eddy currents in the metal.
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Further reading .... Hall v VR sensors ..
http://fullfunctioneng.com/info/Hall%20vs%20VR.pdf
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I agree original is usually better than pattern in lots of things but from an enginnering point of view i myself would like to know what the difference is. When a crank sensor fails.be it original or cheap one what actually stops happening ?.does something go open circiut or what ? . Anyone any ideas.
when i remove mine, after satisfying myself that the new one fixes the problem i'll dismantle it and have a look.. with a hammer ;)
i wonder if the proximity to the oil filter and oof members' pension for frequent oil changes may be part of the problem. my current sensor has witnessed 4 oil changes since installation.
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Penchant, not pension ::)
Frequently changing the oil is better for the life expectancy of the engine than leaving it for 20K miles ;)
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I was under the impression that the crank sensors were hall effect too because of the 3 wire spec.if thats the case then it would have slighly more chance. Of faillingrather than a straight pick up coil but i am still curios as to what actually gives up.if as some have said its the cable then carefull positioning or heatproofing may be the answer. There must be something that gm sensors get right that no other aftermarket sensor can but id like to know what or why. As an engineer by trade im not just happy with "oem is best" i always want to know why one thing is better than another and why?same goes for all the pattern parts vs original
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Last time I had one fail, it had gone open circuit.
It's a coil of fine wire which is terminated into a screened cable and the whole assembly is then potted and screwed into the side of an engine block where the front face is then splashed with oil at up to 120 degrees C.
Being potted means that it's very difficult to do a "post mortem". My guess would be that the thermal cycling in use eventually causes the fine wire ends of the coils to fatigue where the housing in which they are potted expands and contracts slightly with each engine heating cycle. This is backed up by the fact that failure is often temperature related in that the engine will stall at high temperature only to restart normally once cold.
As to why it must be genuine - most probably GM have tighter specifications on the quality of the part if it is manufactured for them. Their manufacturers are probably now no longer subject to any exclusivity on making the part, so they can sell them in the aftermarket, but they could choose to use cheaper materials that wouldn't pass GM's acceptance criteria. They may even choose to sell batches of parts that were rejected by GM to the aftermarket. For some parts this wouldn't matter, but for a part that's already in a pretty hostile environment and prone to failure it's the difference between it lasting a week weeks or many years.
We can speculate on the reasons, but the fact of the matter is that, in the decade that we've been here, a pattern has emerged that only genuine crank sensors have been worth bothering with.
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the current sensor is a genuine Delphi sensor. Delphi automotive is a well known brand, one of the world's largest automotive parts manufacturers. it was set up by general motors (vauxhall) in 1994. a lot of mig original parts are Delphi. my brake pads are Delphi. so Delphi are a 'decent' brand.
This is why we constantly (from crank sensors), genuine GM part from a real Vauxhall dealer. Nothing else.
For the record, Delphi aftermarket parts are mostly considered pretty poor, on par with all other very low cost pattern parts, and probably from the same Chinese factory as acmepartsltd get theirs ;)
But low cost pattern parts have a place in life. Just not on Omega V6 crank sensors. (Or brakes, but that's off topic)
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i wonder if the proximity to the oil filter and oof members' pension for frequent oil changes may be part of the problem. my current sensor has witnessed 4 oil changes since installation.
I have a theory about this, but my own personal evidence isn't broad enough to even begin to be conclusive...
...but I really do wonder why GM re-engineered the oil filter from the crap VOF93 spin on to a paper element type for the V6 engines in 1999. And only the V6 engines. With the sensor/wire right beside it.
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I currently have 3 crank sensors, one new unbranded (my emergency spare), one dodgy looking unbranded used one and the one in place, a Delphi. I'll test the Delphi on removal. here are the results for the other two.
on my decent multimeter:
pin 1 to 2 (left to right, looking at tapered catch) 0.939KOhm on used one, 0.965KOhm on new one
nothing between pin 3 and any other pin.
my megger tester shows them fully closed circuit pin 1 to 2 and fully open circuit on the other permutations.
incidentally these crank sensors definitely have permanent magnets in them, powerful enough to hold their own weight. so i assume that means they are not hall effect sensors?
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Yes, it's a VRS, not a hall sensor.
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this web page is useful http://www.aa1car.com/library/crank_sensors.htm eg:
"Magnetic sensors can be checked by unplugging the electrical connector and checking resistance between the appropriate terminals. On a GM 2.3L Quad 4, for example, the sensor should read between 500 and 900 ohms"
"A good magnetic crank position sensor should produce an alternating current when the engine is cranked, so a voltage output check while cranking is another test that can be performed. With the sensor connected, read the output voltage across the appropriate terminals while cranking the engine. If you see at least 20 mV on the AC scale, the sensor is good, meaning the fault is probably in the module, coil, wiring or computer."
and
" The third type of crankshaft position sensor is a magnetic pickup that reads slots machined in a "reluctor" ring in the center of the crankshaft, on the harmonic balancer or flywheel. This setup is used on GM engines with the Direct Ignition Systems (DIS) on the 2.0L, 2.5L and 2.8L engines, and the Integrated Distributorless Ignition (IDI) on the 2.3L Quad 4, and also many Ford, Chrysler and import engines.
On the GM applications, the crank reluctor ring has six equally spaced slots 60 degrees apart. A seventh slot is spaced 10 degrees from one of the others so the crank sensor will generate an extra "sync-pulse" every revolution. The PCM then uses the information to calculate proper ignition and injector timing. This type of sensor must be carefully positioned so the air gap is within .050 in. of the crankshaft reluctor ring."
also from wikipedia
"One detail of some designs is the "three wire" inductive crank sensor whereby the third wire is actually just a co-axial shield around the two main sensor wires to prevent them from picking up stray electrical pulses from elsewhere in the vehicle engine bay."
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here are the readings for the existing delphi sensor
590 Ohm
1V AC when starter turning, pins 1 and 2
0.14V AC when starter turning pins 2 and 3
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new sensor arrived today no brand on it but "made in italy" on the plug and unlike my spare it does have some markings on the sensor head - >PA66- GF30< and 0284 08D. also a batch number sticker 65407. Box says CS1242 location 3G-D5-S1 batch no G065407
reads 875 Ohms
i will fit it and report back (keeping both spares in the boot with the relevant tools)
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Don't know why you bothered to ask for advice which you had every intention of ignoring... :-X
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Don't know why you bothered to ask for advice which you had every intention of ignoring... :-X
no i cannot fit a bosch sensor because I only have my spare cheapo ones. I have ordered a genuine bosch one and will fit it when it arrives. incidentally the only advice you have given here is how easy it is to change the plugs on a v6 (which it isn't ::)) and that a v6 will run on 3 cylinders which is irrelevant ???
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The recommendation for V6 crank sensors is to buy a genuine GM one from a bricks-and-mortar dealer. Not Bosch. Not Siemens. Not Delphi or other similar tat.
This recommendation comes from huge amounts of experience from helping others who have also tried all the other routes, thing they knew better.
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the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it? Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?
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the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it? Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?
Matters not.
Just because both are made by a given company, that doesn't mean both parts are identical - that's certainly the case with many other components.
The fact is, our collective experience is that the genuine GM ones bought from a real dealer are the only consistently reliable ones. Up to individuals what the hell they put on their cars, and I don't give 2 hoots either way - my car works. I/we can only give advice based on both our own personal experience, and the collective, broad experience of others. Obviously some individuals believe they know different, though invariably end up paying more by having to do things twice. Some never learn, and have to do it thrice, before the penny drops.
The reason for going to a real dealer, rather than the laziness of the likes of overpriced egay etc, is you can guarantee its genuine. I know as soon as I see "genuine" in the title of an egay auction, its likely to be anything but... ;)
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the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it? Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?
Not the same thing hence the advice... Remember that as it fails just as you join a motorway with no hard shoulder :-X
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the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it? Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?
Not the same thing hence the advice... Remember that as it fails just as you join a motorway with no hard shoulder :-X
right so that dodgy worldwide company bosch are making two crank sensors, one good one for gm and a duff one for the rest of the world ???
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You did read TBs posts ???
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You did read TBs posts ???
Ok i accept (and probably did always accept) that unbranded crank sensors are not to be used (though even now no one can say what goes wrong with them and why, and they are in essence a very simple sensor to manufacture). I kept one as a get me home spare.
I had thought that a branded one, with a decent brand (Delphi were set up by GM and despite what may be alleged here Delphi is a well respected brand), marked with their name on the sensor and cable, in a delphi printed and holographed box, would be OK. It definitely was OK for 12K miles, it reads OK now with a multimeter and megger tester. It may in fact be OK and the fault is elsewhere. However if the crank sensor is the fault then I am happy to decry delphi.
However i am finding it difficult to accept that Bosch or Siemens for that matter make two different qualities of sensor and give GM their good one. i would love to see any evidence eg a photo of gm obtained bosch sensor next to a bosch one. its also rather surprising to me that bosch ones are no good, they are definitely a reputable company.
has anyone ever had problems with a bosch crank sensor (or even a delphi one)? i can't find it in the archives.
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ok here's the latest data with new cheapo crank sensor fitted. i did expect the new sensor to work for a few days at least...
this graph shows the engine at idle over a 1 minute period then it stalls for no reason i yet know of
(https://preview.ibb.co/cNsAtQ/new_crank_stalled_zoom.jpg)
to me the first things that go are three of the oxy sensors closely followed by the ignition advance taking off. or maybe the ignition advance goes first. then both the short term fuel trims shoot up. then the revs die. I've taken out the long term fuel trims data as it stayed level thoughout. note the revs are divided by 200 to keep them on the scale.
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this one shows the car while driving got to 5mph then stalled over 1 minutes and 24 seconds.
(https://preview.ibb.co/c6TYDQ/new_crank_stalled_while_driving.jpg)
there is a lot more going on because the car was moving and annoyingly the oxy sensors behave this time or at least bank 2 sensor 2 does
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I have done a graph for the idle stall which has more precise timings
(https://preview.ibb.co/cagLtQ/new_crank_stalled_idle_exact_timings.jpg)
Looks like first to go is the ignition advance which i think means the main suspect remains the crank sensor despite it being a new one. I'll swap it for a different new one today. The jitter on the bank 1 oxy sensor 1 (in yellow) is just because I got double the number of readings for that as i monitored it twice per cycle by mistake.
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the one you get from a gm dealer is bosch isn't it? Doesn't it have the word 'bosch' on it? apart from the square plug older ones which are Siemens?
Not the same thing hence the advice... Remember that as it fails just as you join a motorway with no hard shoulder :-X
right so that dodgy worldwide company bosch are making two crank sensors, one good one for gm and a duff one for the rest of the world ???
It is true that Bosch may make multiple crank sensors for that "fit". It is possible that the one supplied to GM they are NOT allowed legally to sell into the aftermarket channel - this is quite common in the automotive sector. So they may label one that's similar dimensions, but designed for another application, as "good enough".
Even if they are supplying to the aftermarket channel, you as an end user cannot deal with Bosch. So how can you guarantee its genuine? Short answer, you can't.
Delphi supplies low cost junk, and their electrics are on a par with the worse of Lucas. I would doubt they made crank sensors, but rebadged cheap Chinese shit that at best works for a few months ;)
Given, as has been said so many times, that a V6 crank sensor failure does leave you stranded, and the last V6 one I bought from a dealer was £40+VAT, the ONLY recommendation is to use GM, bought from a dealer, bought over the counter. I'm not sure how many times that has to be said before it sinks in. You can argue all you like, but that is the experience of this forum and others, and you're not the first to question if "genuine" xyz is the same as GM. The fact remains, the GM on is the only one that is consistently reliable.
As said earlier, you're trims now can't be trusted because you've screwed the MAF by using solvents on it. Again, you're not the first be a long way to discover this the hard, expensive way.
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To follow on from the above.....
Some parts are bought off the shelf by manufactures, could be ABS ECU's, MAF's theres a variety of common parts used in various engines for different manufacturers.
Other parts will be designed by GM and manufactured by someone with the tooling ready in place such as a crank sensor used on no other cars. The licensing agreement may specify that the part must only be supplied direct to them, and any sold to the aftermarket chanells will need to be of a slightly differerent and not better quality. May even just be they are all the same, but the ones that gen passed to GM have passed Quality Assurance to a certain spec. A lower spec may still operate sufficently to be sold as aftermarket. Many possibilties.
Similar products are more easily provable..
eg..Buy a Wahler thermostat.....You will find it has been attacked with an angle grinder crudely removing the GM part number....
Why would they do that if they didnt HAVE to, it costs more to do it, so what other changes we cant see have been made? is it perhaps a fraction of a degree different at operating temperature? clearly proves they can dictate changes have to be made to sell it elsewhere.
Drop it down further, buy a resistor, you can choose how accurate it is, the more accurate ones cost more, they have been through more Quality control to ensure they are in spec. others then sold cheaper.
Similar in other industries, Intel will sell you a processor guaranteed to work at over clocked speeds, graphics cards can be bought as golden sample, both illustrating the devices that pass QA with the higher marks can be sold for a higher price despite being apparently the same.
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As said earlier, you're trims now can't be trusted because you've screwed the MAF by using solvents on it. Again, you're not the first be a long way to discover this the hard, expensive way.
i'm assuming the MAF is not the problem here as when it wouldn't start, i unplugged the MAF and it still wouldn't start.
Ditto the cam sensor, I replaced it with a new one and it still wouldn't start. After cooling down it did start and run OK with the new cam sensor so I have left it in.
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Neither the Maf or cam sensor will stop it starting.
Unplugging the maf will rule that out as it will run without. Cam sensor will only need a bit more cranking. Both put the light on.
Again, none of this is news.
I have my suspicion as to your problem but there's no point saying, because you won't listen :-X
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Neither the Maf or cam sensor will stop it starting.
Unplugging the maf will rule that out as it will run without. Cam sensor will only need a bit more cranking. Both put the light on.
Again, none of this is news.
Indeed it isn't news. I said it above and you just repeated it, glad you agree maf and cam sensor are ruled out ::).
I have my suspicion as to your problem but there's no point saying, because you won't listen :-X
that sort of fits. looking through this thread you haven't given any advice, excepting 'don't ask questions just listen to the oof opinion on crank sensors', which is set in stone despite no one being able to give an explanation.
so now i've tried a third new sensor albeit a cheap one and the problem is worse than ever. It either won't start or idles a bit then stalls. I think i have now ruled out the crank sensor. i probably need to start looking at fuel.
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Fuel pump?
Come across similar problems on other vehicles.
Easy to get all complicated. Fuel and spark is what you need to run, often disappears when thing run for a bit/get hot.
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Just been reading back through this again. Sorry if i missed it but did you check fuel delivery / pressure .faulty fuel pump or blocked fuel filter ?
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Just been reading back through this again. Sorry if i missed it but did you check fuel delivery / pressure .faulty fuel pump or blocked fuel filter ?
Thanks no i haven't yet, i got myself sidetracked with MAF and crank sensor. looking at the data during my stall from idle the short term fuel trims did shoot up as the engine died. 1.5 seconds before the first recorded zero rpm, STFT bank 1 shot up closely followed by STFT2. However the ignition advance started rising a full 3 seconds before hence I suspected the crank sensor. I'll put the old sensor back in tomorrow anyway- it was working most of the time and since it was changed barely runs.
is there a standard way to check the fuel delivery/ pressure? just carefully undo the supply pipe and look for pressure? how long after shutdown should there still be pressure? i looked in the guides but can't find it.
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I beleive you can check it from the fuel rail somehow but i havnt tried this myself.maybee check that you have a good flow back to the tank / return would be a basic check to see if pump is pumping and filter is not restricting flow but no doubt someone will be along to advise more presisely.following this sith interest also with regard to the crank sensor issues / etc. .
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I beleive you can check it from the fuel rail somehow but i havnt tried this myself.maybee check that you have a good flow back to the tank / return would be a basic check to see if pump is pumping and filter is not restricting flow but no doubt someone will be along to advise more presisely.following this sith interest also with regard to the crank sensor issues / etc. .
There is a shrader type valve in the fuel rail :y
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thanks I assume that is under the plenum cover, will test it. meanwhile the engine will not start at all. there is no 'bounce' on the rev counter when i try so i am still unsure about the crank sensor despite having tried 3 different ones and putting the old Delphi one, which was working mostly, back in. I think i will visit a vaux dealer just to put that issue to rest.
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thanks I assume that is under the plenum cover, will test it.
I can't remember if the plenum needs to come off, or if its accessible at back. :-[
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It's as accessible as the plugs... Piece of piss. Just don't drop the cap or I will laugh. Alot.
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And don't have your noggin over it when you press the valve in or you may get an eyeful of petrol :o
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And don't have your noggin over it when you press the valve in or you may get an eyeful of petrol :o
No sense, no feeling...
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checked the schraeder fuel valve, it was full of fuel and the pin appeared a bit bent but no pressure. Cranked engine no pressure or fuel coming out.
tried to fit a new fuel pump see my new post
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hopefully to close this one down, the second hand purple injector relay arrived today and i plugged it in the engine compartment fuse box. car runs fine, took it for its MOT and it passed with no advisories :y.
i'm pretty sure the windings on the old relay started to go open circuit in hot conditions and eventually failed completely, causing all the symptoms here, including indirectly these error codes:
0100 MAF (caused by unplugging),
1613 Immobiliser No Or Wrong Signal Immobiliser (low battery),
0560 System Voltage Low Input (low battery),
0230 fuel pump (probably me unplugging the fuel pump relay at some point).
a temporary get-me-home-fix for the relay is to remove the purple cover from it and put a small spring clamp over the solenoid contacts, remembering to remove the clamp when the ignition is off.
I also checked the fuel pressure at the schraeder valve with an £8 kit, it is 3.6bar.
thanks for all the help here, well meaning or otherwise, but most of all the archives. I hope this thread helps someone else sometime.
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forgot one other code, in fact the first one that showed and made me change the plugs
p0305 code misfire cyl 5
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0100 MAF (caused by unplugging),
1613 Immobiliser No Or Wrong Signal Immobiliser (low battery),
0560 System Voltage Low Input (low battery),
0230 fuel pump (probably me unplugging the fuel pump relay at some point).
Agree with all you conclusions, apart from 1613 - was it an old lingering code (I don't believe that one self clears with time), or old that came back after a clear?
Never seen that one due to flat battery.
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0100 MAF (caused by unplugging),
1613 Immobiliser No Or Wrong Signal Immobiliser (low battery),
0560 System Voltage Low Input (low battery),
0230 fuel pump (probably me unplugging the fuel pump relay at some point).
Agree with all you conclusions, apart from 1613 - was it an old lingering code (I don't believe that one self clears with time), or old that came back after a clear?
Never seen that one due to flat battery.
1613 appeared at the same time as 0560 , both at the time i had pretty well drained the battery trying to start it. not appeared before or since and was cleared by my obd2 scanner. no codes before this issue, either on pedal trick or scanner. so I am pretty sure it was down to a low battery :y.