Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: plym ian on 08 June 2017, 22:57:40
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Never seen him speechless like this before :o :o
https://youtu.be/sjZXaUwYoog
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Lucky. That will take him a while to process...
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Yup, tbh brave of him to even do the interview. You wouldn't have got near me after something like that.
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Yes I saw that on the highlights programme last Sunday.Box full of neutrals going into the corner,so no engine braking.Lucky not to be more seriously hurt.They were on with altering John Mcguiness's bike for Guy to ride in the senior,but in a further interview Guy was pretty hesitant in saying he had confidence in the bike either!To me if he's not 100% confident in the bike he didn't ought to ride it,the TT course is very unforgiving,as three riders have found to their ultimate cost this week.
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Time for that lad to give up and stick to TV work before he becomes another statistic of the TT :-\
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I agree. Ive said it before too. Although this one wasn't his fault, imo he doesn't quite have what it takes to win at the TT and it would be all too easy for him to kill himself trying.
Nevr seen him that subdued before.
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I agree. Ive said it before too. Although this one wasn't his fault, imo he doesn't quite have what it takes to win at the TT and it would be all too easy for him to kill himself trying.
Nevr seen him that subdued before.
No nor me,I think this crash really rattled him plus the fact that 3 others have died there this week :'(
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He totally accepts the calculated risks riding there, but dangerous bike issues are an unacceptable extra, a game of Russian roulette. :o :o :o Finding a neutral changing down on an ordinary bike at normal speeds is not a pleasant experience, but at racing speeds with their total commitment at corners that must be very frightening with uncontrolled consequences on a very unforgiving circuit. :( :( :(
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What's wrong with the big poof? Should change his name to Gay Martin. ;D
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Time for that lad to give up and stick to TV work before he becomes another statistic of the TT :-\
.......and another name on the Dead Person thread! :o :o ;)
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Can a bicyclist explain the box full of neutrals / engine braking importance in bikes. Don't know anything about bikes but interested what happened here :-\
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Can a bicyclist explain the box full of neutrals / engine braking importance in bikes. Don't know anything about bikes but interested what happened here :-\
Gears...
Help you go uphill, and really fast on the level and keep your momentum in check down hill... No gears equally no engine drag equals not slowing down equals not making a corner equals ouch.
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Can a bicyclist explain the box full of neutrals / engine braking importance in bikes. Don't know anything about bikes but interested what happened here :-\
I've not ridden a bike at anything like the level of performance of these guys, but the principles I was taught by my old man some 50+ years ago still work I think ....
On a bike the power/weight ratio is high, as is the brake ability/weight, the first enables you to do wheel spins with ease, the second to lock the brakes with ease. Light weight of the bike is some of the problem
When trying to slow down from high speed on a bike you are VERY cautious regarding the use of the front brake as several things happen if you over do it .. front brake locks up.... you not only lose the ability to steer but the bike nose dives (even with modern anti dive geometry), the back end gets very light and the rear wheel "may" lift of the ground, and not necessarily in line with the front wheel !! you are now in a great position to go straight over the handlebars .... not a good idea TBH
If you apply the rear brake excessively then the rear wheel locks up and you are simply sliding across the ground with very little braking effect, the maximum braking effect is by slowing the rotation of the wheel without it skidding....... THAT is what engine braking does with maximum efficiency, the momentum of the bike over the ground causes the rotation of the wheel which is resisted by the engine compression, no chance of a lock up (unless the engine seizes) and a high degree of stopping power .. which can then be augmented by the bikes brakes applied very carefully.
No engine braking because the bike is in neutral, either through mechanical failure or rider error means the brakes have to do everything, and they simply cannot achieve it.
To a large extent the same thing happens driving HGVs but for a different reason.. you NEVER, EVER clutch in then brake.. the clutch is ALWAYS engaged whilst the brake is operated ( except at very slow speeds obviously) to obtain maximum engine braking at the rear wheels, this is caused however not by light weight but by the heavy weight causing a large momentum value that the brakes alone would struggle to oppose.
It may well be that things have changed with modern bikes, and if so a younger biker will no doubt correct me, but that's how I was taught, and rode , many years ago .....
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Principles still much the same. They don't really change. With modern bikes, the front brakes are immensely powerful. Arms need to be "locked out" otherwise you will easily get thrown over the front. Grabbing a big handful of front brakes in a panic will make the bike somersault, due to the power of the brakes and the (lack of) weight of the bike. A degree of finesse is needed.
Rear brake is much less important than it may have previously been. Many people don't bother with it for most braking. Most useful in the wet to balance things out a bit and take some work off the front tyre. Also a bit of rear brake can help the bike turn tighter into a corner if there is a risk of running wide.
A box full of neutrals will greatly alter the expected handling attitude of the bike, as it will (probably to a lesser degree) with a car.
The engine isn't driving the bike around the bend. It is rolling around it on its own momentum which will make the suspension and chassis behave differently.
Sudden loss of engine braking will obviously mean less loss of speed than expected, as well as the above unexpected behaviour.
All of this when at the limit, particularily on Isle of Man type of circuit puts the riders fate in the lap of the gods.
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Well he gained a creditable result in the TT Zero race and quite wisely didn't race in the Senior,so he lives to race[or retire from racing]another day.
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Thanks for the detailed responses. So to sum up in laymans terms.
The gears and engine braking are what is used to slow the bike cos the brakes are essentially useless at these speeds it would appear due to the high power to weight ratio.
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Can a bicyclist explain the box full of neutrals / engine braking importance in bikes. Don't know anything about bikes but interested what happened here :-\
I've not ridden a bike at anything like the level of performance of these guys, but the principles I was taught by my old man some 50+ years ago still work I think ....
On a bike the power/weight ratio is high, as is the brake ability/weight, the first enables you to do wheel spins with ease, the second to lock the brakes with ease. Light weight of the bike is some of the problem
When trying to slow down from high speed on a bike you are VERY cautious regarding the use of the front brake[highlight/] as several things happen if you over do it .. front brake locks up.... you not only lose the ability to steer but the bike nose dives (even with modern anti dive geometry), the back end gets very light and the rear wheel "may" lift of the ground, and not necessarily in line with the front wheel !! you are now in a great position to go straight over the handlebars .... not a good idea TBH
If you apply the rear brake excessively then the rear wheel locks up and you are simply sliding across the ground with very little braking effect, the maximum braking effect is by slowing the rotation of the wheel without it skidding....... THAT is what engine braking does with maximum efficiency, the momentum of the bike over the ground causes the rotation of the wheel which is resisted by the engine compression, no chance of a lock up (unless the engine seizes) and a high degree of stopping power .. which can then be augmented by the bikes brakes applied very carefully.
No engine braking because the bike is in neutral, either through mechanical failure or rider error means the brakes have to do everything, and they simply cannot achieve it.
To a large extent the same thing happens driving HGVs but for a different reason.. you NEVER, EVER clutch in then brake.. the clutch is ALWAYS engaged whilst the brake is operated ( except at very slow speeds obviously) to obtain maximum engine braking at the rear wheels, this is caused however not by light weight but by the heavy weight causing a large momentum value that the brakes alone would struggle to oppose.
It may well be that things have changed with modern bikes, and if so a younger biker will no doubt correct me, but that's how I was taught, and rode , many years ago .....
It`s not really an issue on good roads as the front brakes have plenty of feel and are quite strong, from high speed there is plenty of weight transfer to help keep the front tyre nailed to the road. Most riders hardly use the rear brake unless it`s wet in which case it helps balance the bike.
That particular corner where Guy Martin crashed is mostly engine braking anyway so I`m told by a lad who follows the TT closely so it was never going to end well with a box full of neutrals.
New T-shirt is out anyway ;D
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w75/Gav24v/logo-large_cbrlogo_nums_mockup_Flat-Front_Black_1024x1024_zps607tan8h.png)
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Thanks for the detailed responses. So to sum up in laymans terms.
The gears and engine braking are what is used to slow the bike cos the brakes are essentially useless at these speeds it would appear due to the high power to weight ratio.
No. The front brakes are very powerful indeed. Engine braking on its own is used if going down a couple of gears to knock off some speed for a pretty fast bend without needing to hammer on the front brakes. Unexpectedly finding neutral will cancel this though, as well as unsettling the suspension from where the rider expects it to be. For example, when accelerating the weight will transfer rearwards and load the rear suspension while unloading the front. Braking does the opposite. Engine braking will have the affect of mild braking, and neutral will unload both front and rear suspension .
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Thanks for the detailed responses. So to sum up in laymans terms.
The gears and engine braking are what is used to slow the bike cos the brakes are essentially useless at these speeds it would appear due to the high power to weight ratio.
No. The front brakes are very powerful indeed. Engine braking on its own is used if going down a couple of gears to knock off some speed for a pretty fast bend without needing to hammer on the front brakes. Unexpectedly finding neutral will cancel this though, as well as unsettling the suspension from where the rider expects it to be. For example, when accelerating the weight will transfer rearwards and load the rear suspension while unloading the front. Braking does the opposite. Engine braking will have the affect of mild braking, and neutral will unload both front and rear suspension .
It also means that there is then no power available to drive the bike through the bend, which is as bad as it sounds.
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Yep. :y