Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: berserkerboy on 25 June 2017, 17:51:27
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Last chance for the old girl.
I have been having problems starting the car on petrol but can hard start on gas. I have tested the purple relays which both seem to be working fine. Ie. continuity across the small spades and good closure on supplying 12v to create continuity across the large spades.
I have fitted a new fuel pump as RAC told me that was the issue. However, the car still refuses to start.
I have disconnected at fuel feed manifold, I am assuming the right hand larger pipe is the feed? On crank over no petrol is coming out. The voltage at the pump is about 9.5v on crank over. Is this correct? If so then i guess the new pump is faulty?
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You should have 12 v at the pump :-\
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When the ignition was first turned on I had 12v briefly which then reduced to zero. When I was cranking over voltage went back up to 9.5v and remained there whilst cranking. I wondered if this was due to the demand on the battery. Would 9.5v be enough to get some pumping of fuel?
I think I'll remove pump and see if a 12v supply runs it.
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When Cranking, the Battery voltage call fall considerably, roughly anything above 9.7 when cranking is the threshold between a good and bad battery (assumes accurate Voltmeter),
Whats the Battery Voltage (measured at the Battery) when cranking?
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Well, I've been charging the battery as I've been cranking it over for a while. Just checked the voltage at the battery whilst cranking: 10.66v. Same at the pump which would suggest faulty new pump?
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Well, I've been charging the battery as I've been cranking it over for a while. Just checked the voltage at the battery whilst cranking: 10.66v. Same at the pump which would suggest faulty new pump?
No, the pump won't run until the crank sensor agrees that the engine has fired.
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Surely the engine needs pumped fuel in order to fire? Seems a catch 22.
Shall I run a 12v from the battery to the pump to see if it's working?
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Surely the engine needs pumped fuel in order to fire? Seems a catch 22.
Shall I run a 12v from the battery to the pump to see if it's working?
Ignition on, pump runs to prime the fuel rail... Injectors and fuel rail hold enough fuel to idle the engine for 5-10 seconds, by which time the damn thing should be running without the starter. Pump then kicks in and runs until you switch the ignition off or the crank sensor dies... Whichever comes first.
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Surely the engine needs pumped fuel in order to fire? Seems a catch 22.
Shall I run a 12v from the battery to the pump to see if it's working?
Pump gets primed when Ing. key on, can normally here it and relay clicking.
Cant remember if you can pull the Cover off the relay and and force the contact so the pump runs on a 3.2 ?, I know you can on a 3.0.
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Just jacked a 12v supply and earth into the plug. Ensured continuity. No sound from the pump. Gonna whip it out to see if it's faulty. >:(
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Just jacked a 12v supply and earth into the plug. Ensured continuity. No sound from the pump. Gonna whip it out to see if it's faulty. >:(
Plug on top of tank?
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Ive only just seen the word LPG in your Profile, ::)
Sounds like youve burnt the petrol pump out by running the tank low when running on Gas. :y
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Pump is fine. Just couldn't hear it. Yes plug on top of tank. Should have disconnected the fuel manifold again to see if it was priming.
Thanks for your help guys. Can't spend any more time or money on this car. Struggling to start on gas now. Probably too low voltage on crank.
If the crank sensor was faulty it wouldn't have run on gas would it?
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Possibly as that only switches off the fuel pump at cranking... Injectors are powered as they are needed for normal firing.
Pull all the spark plugs along with fuse 18.
Crank engine for 15 seconds.
Wait ten minutes.
Crank engine for 15 seconds.
Pour a tablespoon or two of oil down each plug hole.
Wait ten minutes.
Crank engine for ten seconds.
Fit new plugs and reconnect everything including the fuse.
Now try and start the car.
A quid bets ten that it starts within five attempts ;)
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Surely the engine needs pumped fuel in order to fire? Seems a catch 22.
Shall I run a 12v from the battery to the pump to see if it's working?
Ignition on, pump runs to prime the fuel rail... Injectors and fuel rail hold enough fuel to idle the engine for 5-10 seconds, by which time the damn thing should be running without the starter. Pump then kicks in and runs until you switch the ignition off or the crank sensor dies... Whichever comes first.
Not on my 2.5. As described 28Feb2017 http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=138599.0 my 2.5 needed 2 long starter squirts to start the engine. I eventually traced the fault to an earlier pump change using jubilee clips, which I replaced with spring clips, curing the fault. In my book, the fuel pump gets 12 volts when ignition is on, crank sensor is pulsing, or starter is cranking.
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What is happening when you do that with the oil?
Also is the only function of the crank sensor to control the fuel pump?
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What is happening when you do that with the oil?
Also is the only function of the crank sensor to control the fuel pump?
Crank sensor tells the ecu that the engine is running... Ecu cross checks with cam sensor that all is well. Then it turns on the fuel pump.
That little guide I got from a Us Bmw forum... It is a straight forward method to restore compression loss caused by borewashing... A frustrating side effect of flooding a modern engine followed by repeated attempts to start.
The Omega normally sorts itself out but yours is proving to be a moody mare, so warrants trying :y
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Possibly as that only switches off the fuel pump at cranking... Injectors are powered as they are needed for normal firing.
Pull all the spark plugs along with fuse 18.
Crank engine for 15 seconds.
Wait ten minutes.
Crank engine for 15 seconds.
Pour a tablespoon or two of oil down each plug hole.
Wait ten minutes.
Crank engine for ten seconds.
Fit new plugs and reconnect everything.
Now try and start the car.
A quid bets ten that it starts within five attempts ;)
i'm extremely doubtful that all the crank sensor does is tell the fuel pump to run. it almost certainly tells the ignition system when to spark as well. a crank sensor is a very simple thing it just tells the car the position of the crank - it doesnt tell the fuel pump one thing and the ignitions system something else. therefore berserkerboy I think you are are right if it runs on lpg the crank sensor is working.
my recent experience is that the crank sensor is always picked out as the fault for any non starting, especially if hasn't been bought over a counter at a dealer, even if it is a genuine bosch or delphi. in my case it wasn't that at all but a faulty injection relay.
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What is happening when you do that with the oil?
It is a straight forward method to restore compression loss caused by borewashing... A frustrating side effect of flooding a modern engine followed by repeated attempts to start.
a) this is a v6 are you saying that compression has gone on all 6 cylinders at the same time? ::) seems very unlikely, at least one cylinder would fire
b) op says it is running on lpg OK, do you think if there was not enough compression to fire one cylinder on petrol, all would fire OK on lpg? ;D
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It supplies the ecu with information. It is perfectly feasible that the ecu uses that information as part of more than one process...
Anyway, if you bothered to read everything first rather than trying to get a reaction, you would know that the OPs car has a working fuel pump, relays (both) and crank sensor and no longer starts on lpg.
I have explained to the OP the reasoning behind my guide. I have also experienced this very issue recently with a straight six... all six plugs were so badly fouled that they wouldn't spark, and the compression was almost non existent across all six cylinders.
I will, however, humour your provocation no more :-X
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Car battery is on charge. Will give the hard start on gas a try tomorrow. Thereafter, I will consider what to do.
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If it's the end of the road I really don't know what car will come close to an omega?
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Car battery is on charge. Will give the hard start on gas a try tomorrow. Thereafter, I will consider what to do.
Follow my guide, then try the hard gas start.
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i'm extremely doubtful that all the crank sensor does is tell the fuel pump to run. it almost certainly tells the ignition system when to spark as well. a crank sensor is a very simple thing it just tells the car the position of the crank - it doesn't tell the fuel pump one thing and the ignition system something else. therefore berserkerboy I think you are are right if it runs on lpg the crank sensor is working.
my recent experience is that the crank sensor is always picked out as the fault for any non starting, especially if hasn't been bought over a counter at a dealer, even if it is a genuine bosch or delphi.
The crank sensor supplies the engine ECU with information about the crank position; it's not connected to anything else. The ECU combines that information with that from other sensors, primarily the cam, MAF and throttle sensors and uses it to do essential stuff like ensuring that the fuel pump relay is switched on, and firing the injectors and coils at the appropriate times. This is true of all engine management systems, and lots of them suffer from crank sensor issues. The sensors design and functionality make them particularly susceptible to manufacturing and quality control issues, which is why the advice is always the same: buying a genuine one from the appropriate dealer(it's not just Vauxhalls remember) is the best way of saving a lot of frustration.
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i'm extremely doubtful that all the crank sensor does is tell the fuel pump to run. it almost certainly tells the ignition system when to spark as well. a crank sensor is a very simple thing it just tells the car the position of the crank - it doesn't tell the fuel pump one thing and the ignition system something else. therefore berserkerboy I think you are are right if it runs on lpg the crank sensor is working.
my recent experience is that the crank sensor is always picked out as the fault for any non starting, especially if hasn't been bought over a counter at a dealer, even if it is a genuine bosch or delphi.
The crank sensor supplies the engine ECU with information about the crank position; it's not connected to anything else. The ECU combines that information with that from other sensors, primarily the cam, MAF and throttle sensors and uses it to do essential stuff like ensuring that the fuel pump relay is switched on, and firing the injectors and coils at the appropriate times. This is true of all engine management systems, and lots of them suffer from crank sensor issues. The sensors design and functionality make them particularly susceptible to manufacturing and quality control issues, which is why the advice is always the same: buying a genuine one from the appropriate dealer(it's not just Vauxhalls remember) is the best way of saving a lot of frustration.
so, getting back to the point, beserkerboy you are spot on - "If the crank sensor was faulty it wouldn't have run on gas " :y.
or in case people are really picky as they sometimes can be here, a dodgy crank sensor would give the same problems on gas as on petrol. yes it might fail intermittently but it would fail intermittently under gas as well as petrol.
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I know how frustrating error tracking can be. just going back to the beginning of this and the errors codes you got:
"P0650 (4) unknown present
P0430 (1) unknown present
P0420 (1) unknown not present
P1612 (0) unknown not present
cleared faults and attempted to start again with no luck.
P0650 showed up again."
420 and 430 are 'cat efficiency below threshold' both banks and probably is a symptom of trying to fire with with no petrol, not a cause
1612 'immobiliser wrong or no signal' is also likely a symptom - i got '1613 immobiliser wrong or no signal' during my stall/no start problems and I'm sure it was triggered by a low battery voltage during attempted starting. certainly I haven't had immobiliser issues since i fixed the relay.
so that leaves 650. also the others cleared but 650 kept coming back. so 650 is of interest.
yes it could be caused by the Malfunction Indicator Lamp circuit but if so I would expect you to have had it long before all these problems. assuming its appearance does coincide with the problems, 650 can be caused by a 'failed/faulty PCM (Powertrain control module)' , i.e. the electronic fuel injection system control (ecu).
you may be able to pick up a used one for £40 or so and it looks easy to physically swap, may need programming to the vehicle though, ask oof..
double check but i think this may be the correct part for your 3.2 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282541427589
yes i know this would likely affect gas operation too so that remains a puzzle but I don't know much at all about gas installs and their electronics. anyway the ecu is orders of magnitudes more sophisticated than a crank sensor and the petrol supply may be affected by it whereas gas may not. or the gas install may control the spark independently. a crank sensor just tells everybody and anybody where the crank is. or not.
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or could be this one, £35 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201577994490 , offering full refund if any problem
best get one with the immobiliser ring, transponder chip and code, sometimes they sell on oof.
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Top one is the wrong one, bottom one could be the right one , but they are both expensive paperweights in effect. ECU needs to include key chip and immobiliser ariel.
While engine ECU,s are normally very reliable, I have seen a 3.2 and a 2.6 display similar problems to the ones described cured by a replacement ECU.
I'm not saying that's what the problem is though. It really needs a tech 2 session imo.
Failing that, another Omega to try swapping parts over to confirm or rule out suspected components.
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Do NOT buy an ECU. Its not the ECU, any more than its a crank sensor.
The thing runs as expected on gas, and the gas ECU is just a piggy back of the main ECU. So that's all a load of ill considered guff.
Also, P0650 is safe to ignore (have you checked the bulb?).
When its running on gas, what happens if you switch to petrol, does it immediately stall?
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The thing runs as expected on gas, and the gas ECU is just a piggy back of the main ECU. So that's all a load of ill considered guff.
Also, P0650 is safe to ignore (have you checked the bulb?).
https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650:
"Potential causes may include:
Burned out MIL bulb/LED
MIL wiring problem (short or open electrical condition)
Poor electrical connection at the bulb/cluster/
PCM Failed/faulty PCM"
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The thing runs as expected on gas, and the gas ECU is just a piggy back of the main ECU. So that's all a load of ill considered guff.
Also, P0650 is safe to ignore (have you checked the bulb?).
https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650:
"Potential causes may include:
Burned out MIL bulb/LED
MIL wiring problem (short or open electrical condition)
Poor electrical connection at the bulb/cluster/
PCM Failed/faulty PCM"
Just 'cos someone on the internet said it, doesn't make it true. ;)
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never a truer word said ::)
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Back to basics on this one -
Does it prime / pump Fuel on Cranking (enough to piss out if disconnected from injector rail)?
Are both banks, all three plugs sparking?
Can it be false started on LPG?
Also check the ECU black earth lead is firm and tight.
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Fuel filter changed ?
Disconnect fuel feed to fuel rail pipe, run a wire from + terminal on the pump to the battery. When the wire is connected to the battery fuel should gush out of the fuel feed pipe, into a suitable container of course.
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The thing runs as expected on gas, and the gas ECU is just a piggy back of the main ECU. So that's all a load of ill considered guff.
Also, P0650 is safe to ignore (have you checked the bulb?).
https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650:
"Potential causes may include:
Burned out MIL bulb/LED
MIL wiring problem (short or open electrical condition)
Poor electrical connection at the bulb/cluster/
PCM Failed/faulty PCM"
But using logic alone says the ECU is fine, even without knowing the specifics of an Omega's systems.
I'd be wary of many of those generic OBD code sites (particularly US targeted ones), as they can be more misleading than they are helpful. Try to use specific sites for the marque. You'd be stunned how many engine ECUs incorrectly get replaced because the bloke down the pub (or a random internet site) said it has to be the ECU.
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You'd be stunned how many engine ECUs incorrectly get replaced because the bloke down the pub (or a random internet site) said it has to be the ECU.
no I wouldn't. i've replaced 3 perfectly good crank sensors on wrong advice ::)
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Were any of them genuine GM bought from a genuine Vauxhall dealer that you walked into to buy the part?
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not one :y
and surprise surprise it turns out there was nothing wrong with any of them :y
oh and shock horror I sprayed my MAF with contact cleaner and for some reason it still works perfectly ::)
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Both those sentences should end with "at the moment". ;D
Anyhoo, what was the outcome with yours ? Don't remember it coming to a conclusion. :-\
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not one :y
and surprise surprise it turns out there was nothing wrong with any of them :y
I am also in this club. I'm reliably informed my car will burst into flames at any moment, either that or the wheels will fall off. Can't remember which. ;D
Other side effects of not buying from an actual VX dealer also include war, pestilence and your wife leaving you.
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The advice from members about buying certain parts from VX is borne out of more than 10 years of trial / error and good / bad experiences. It is intended to help others avoid possible pitfalls. No more, no less.
Theres always those who always know better though. ::)
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The advice from members about buying certain parts from VX is borne out of more than 10 years of trial / error and good / bad experiences. It is intended to help others avoid possible pitfalls. No more, no less.
Theres always those who always know better though. ::)
there's a fine line between experience and dogma. if the view expressed dismisses any contrary experience and has no theory or explanation behind it, insisting 'that's the way it is, don't question it', it's likely to be dogma.
it's a shame that contrary experiences or any questioning of the dogma are dismissed so aggressively here. perhaps just a simple toning down of the instant accusations of 'dangle berries' and 'ill considered guff' would help.
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If MarkDTM, Kevin Wood or The Boy tell you something is a fact you can bet your house on it being a fact. If you don't believe that, then I believe your wasting your time asking for help to be honest.
They have forgotten more than most of us know about Omegas and have never steered me wrong in the last 10 years. ;)
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see what i mean ::)
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I'm not being dogmatic at all, just trying to advise, but hey ho.
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You'd be stunned how many engine ECUs incorrectly get replaced because the bloke down the pub (or a random internet site) said it has to be the ECU.
no I wouldn't. i've replaced 3 perfectly good crank sensors on wrong advice ::)
Advice you never followed. Hence it all ended up with a pantomime.
Yet you advise on this thread to replace an ECU on a pure guess.
My reason for being on this forum, despite not personally driving an Omega now, is to help others, and save them money. I fall back mostly on my own experience of what works and what doesn't (because sometimes I think I know better than the advice of those that really do know their onions), and have a high performance car designer in the family, and somebody working at a major car manufacturer who is the supplier interface.
I also spent an awful lot of time and money (several £k) learning and getting all the diagnostic gear for the Omega, and have extensive experience in diagnosing Omegas for other businesses.
I privately chat to the clever peeps on here on complex issues, and we work through issues, normally not on Omegas, because the inbuilt diags (and the published diag flows)are fairly good, and there aren't many electrical faults we haven't already seen.
I work in IT, mainly Unix and Linux now (but am a bit of a tart, so can do most technologies, covering from when a packet hits our network, right through to when it leaves, be that transit, or application response), so the diagnostic logic isn't dissimilar. Also working in IT, you clearly meet a lot of wasters who think they know stuff, but I do have a very highly tuned BS detector.
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BS, do you mean like 'contact cleaner dissolves metal'???
BTW your advice on my problem WAS to change the crank sensor and I did. 3 times. only difference was you insisted I go to a bricks and mortar dealer. I now know all my crank sensors work. none were from dealers. One is genuine bosch and one genuine delphi. sorry forgot delphi are shit, apparently. >:(
funnily enough I have been in IT myself 25 years and also UNIX. Yes you do meet a lot of people who know they are right and dismiss others experience or questioning your dogma :-X.
also owned an omega non stop since 1998 when i was given one new as my company car
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Meanwhile, back in the thread...
Berserkerboy, have you tried this yet?...
Pull all the spark plugs along with fuse 18.
Crank engine for 15 seconds.
Wait ten minutes.
Crank engine for 15 seconds.
Pour a tablespoon or two of oil down each plug hole.
Wait ten minutes.
Crank engine for ten seconds.
Fit new plugs and reconnect everything including the fuse.
Now try and start the car.
:-\
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I connected a lead to the battery positive terminal and jacked into the connector at the pump. Pump primed. Cranked engine and the car started beautifully and then switched into gas when temp reached. I stopped car and swopped over the 2 purple relays. Car started perfectly so that rules out the relays. Jacking across the large spades of the pump relay allows the car to start perfectly. However, there is only 5v coming to the small spades, and at times I have measured only 0.7v, so presumably not enough to close the relay and run the pump.
Anyone have any thoughts as to why this would be so?
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glad you didn't waste your time pouring oil into your cylinders :y ???
beware the relays can fail slowly and intermittently in my experience. eg they may stop working when hot then start again when cooled down etc..., before they fail completely.
however it does look like your problem is the supply to the pump relay. am i right you are getting 5v sometime 0.7v on the small relay spade sockets when the large relay spade sockets are shorted and the engine is running? very odd. check the cables including earth and that you have the correct rated fuses in and they are not overheating. all fuses in engine bay and fuse 18 in cabin (fuel pump) I think . you could always wire the relay small spades from an ignition live supply and earth so it is on full volts all the time the ignition is on (or just run ignition supply to the pump with suitably thick wire). not when on lpg.
can't help thinking your lpg may be involved but know nothing about lpg installs. no doubt others will help on that.. presumably the lpg controller can switch off the fuel pump when it wants to (and maybe when it shouldn't).
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glad you didn't waste your time pouring oil into your cylinders :y ???
beware the relays can fail slowly and intermittently in my experience. eg they may stop working when hot then start again when cooled down etc..., before they fail completely.
however it does look like your problem is the supply to the pump relay. am i right you are getting 5v sometime 0.7v on the small relay spade sockets when the large relay spade sockets are shorted and the engine is running? very odd. check the cables including earth and that you have the correct rated fuses in and they are not overheating. all fuses in engine bay and fuse 18 in cabin (fuel pump) I think . you could always wire the relay small spades from an ignition live supply and earth so it is on full volts all the time the ignition is on (or just run ignition supply to the pump with suitably thick wire). not when on lpg.
can't help thinking your lpg may be involved but know nothing about lpg installs. no doubt others will help on that.. presumably the lpg controller can switch off the fuel pump when it wants to (and maybe when it shouldn't).
LPG doesn't interfere with the Petrol Pump, its running all the time even on LPG, idea being its primed and ready to go should the LPG run out or develop a fault and die.
Down side to that is a lot of peeps unknowingly let their petrol tank run low, normally because they have plenty of LPG on board, which in turn over heats the petrol pump and it burns out.
This scenario wouldn't happen on Petrol only cars as the the car would die with fuel starvation.
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glad you didn't waste your time pouring oil into your cylinders :y ???
Or replacing the ECU ;D
OP - check the earth connections on back of 2/4/6 bank, and you'll need to start looking at loom faults beyond that :(
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glad you didn't waste your time pouring oil into your cylinders :y ???
beware the relays can fail slowly and intermittently in my experience. eg they may stop working when hot then start again when cooled down etc..., before they fail completely.
however it does look like your problem is the supply to the pump relay. am i right you are getting 5v sometime 0.7v on the small relay spade sockets when the large relay spade sockets are shorted and the engine is running? very odd. check the cables including earth and that you have the correct rated fuses in and they are not overheating. all fuses in engine bay and fuse 18 in cabin (fuel pump) I think . you could always wire the relay small spades from an ignition live supply and earth so it is on full volts all the time the ignition is on (or just run ignition supply to the pump with suitably thick wire). not when on lpg.
can't help thinking your lpg may be involved but know nothing about lpg installs. no doubt others will help on that.. presumably the lpg controller can switch off the fuel pump when it wants to (and maybe when it shouldn't).
Voltages are with the engine not running but ignition on. Relay removed and volt meter applied to spade socket and earth. My wife has sat in car and cranked car and the voltage remains the same. :(
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Ok so lpg doesn't switch off the fuel pump (i would have thought it might), presumably it does switch off the fuel injectors.
berserkerboy which of the two purple relays are we talking about here is it the one nearest the passenger wing or the one slightly nearer the engine? maybe your lpg is switching off the petrol injector relay when it shouldn't.
voltage with ignition on will be similar to with engine running but don't bother measuring voltage when cranking engine all bets are off then.
glad you didn't waste your time pouring oil into your cylinders :y ???
Or replacing the ECU ;D
whats the error code for "need a tablespoon full of oil pouring into each cylinder" then ???? At least there is a persistent error code indicating possible ecu fault, also some oof experience:
I have seen a 3.2 and a 2.6 display similar problems to the ones described cured by a replacement ECU.
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so if you can start the car by powering the pump independantly and it stays running then you are saying that voltages at the now unplugged fuel pump relay are not what they should be.there should be 12v( or up to 14v due to engine running)at terminal 30.this then runs vis term 87 to the fuel pump.so if you bridged these it should run correctly on its own.you are saying that you are only getting a very low voltage to the relay supply coil.(term 85 & 86).if i recall correct one should be 12v ,fed from tother relay and other should be a ecu controlled switched negative .by checking you should be able to ascertain if its the 12v or neg thats not working correctly. then a case of tracing back down the cables for bad connection .process of trace and eliminate
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I will ask again, does it start on forced LPG start?
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glad you didn't waste your time pouring oil into your cylinders :y ???
Or replacing the ECU ;D
OP - check the earth connections on back of 2/4/6 bank, and you'll need to start looking at loom faults beyond that :(
The boy: I presume 2/4/6 bank is passenger side? Do I need to remove the plenum?
Migmog: The relay is the one next to the passenger wing. I will start the car and check voltage on small spades with the car running on petrol.
Zirk: Regarding hard start on LPG. It has not been while cold, wheras before I was able to do so. The LPG/Petrol switch in the car has not been allowing the hard start. Ie green light would not go to solid green when I continually pushed the switchover button.
However, yesterday when I had warmed the engine for a while I disconnected the jack across the large spades and replaced the relay. The car would not start on petrol but I was able to hard start on gas.
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On pure LPG, it will start better when ambient temps are warmer, or the engine is still warm. This is due to the fact you really want it to be gas when it gets injected.
Bear that in mind when considering if its easy or hard to force start on LPG :y
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Most system will allow Forced LPG Start without having to start on petrol, if its a newer type they normally have a bubble push type switch. Try this, Ing. Key out, push / hold bubble switch in permanently, Ing, Key in and wait at least 5 seconds before cranking, keep cranking untill car fire on LPG, as TB it may be rough from cold and may take a few attempts (Ing off between each attempt). make sure whilst your doing all this that you haven't actually switched the LPG Off, ie, its in the right mode before you try, some systems in this mode the Green LED will light permanently after 5 seconds telling you Im now on LPG only mode.
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Most system will allow Forced LPG Start without having to start on petrol, if its a newer type they normally have a bubble push type switch. Try this, Ing. Key out, push / hold bubble switch in permanently, Ing, Key in and wait at least 5 seconds before cranking, keep cranking untill car fire on LPG, as TB it may be rough from cold and may take a few attempts (Ing off between each attempt). make sure whilst your doing all this that you haven't actually switched the LPG Off, ie, its in the right mode before you try, some systems in this mode the Green LED will light permanently after 5 seconds telling you Im now on LPG only mode.
When I am able to hard start the green light stays on permanently and I can hear a click at the tank, a few seconds more cranking and the car starts. As you say, a bit rough when from cold. Recently, the car will not go to solid green from cold. Just switches over to petrol. I'll try your above procedure.
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Zirk: The hard start procedure worked although car would not stay running on gas from cold, kept conking out. Maybe it would have done if I had kept trying. However, no problem hard starting once I had warmed the car.
Migmog: 14+ volts at the positive supply of the relay small spade when the car is running in petrol. Either problem with the control of the earthing or just a poor earth? Will check all earthing points I can see.
TB. Regarding checking the earth behind 2,4,6. Is this easily visible or is it plenum off time? :-\
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The fact that the car starts on LPG pretty much in my book means you can rule out Ignition, ECU, Crank Sensor, Immobilizer etc and concentrate on the Petrol Fueling System fault.
Also, although not necessarily the issue, as said before its not uncommon for the Petrol Pump to over heat on LPG cars where the petrol Tank has run low, the pumps normally die but can deteriorate before they eventually pack up altogether. Another consideration is is the Tank has been run dry, the pump will pick up any crap in the Tank which could or will block the Fuel Filter, if your getting the correct voltage on the Fuel Pump, these would be my first coarse of action. As asked before a few post back does it piss fuel out at a good rate if you disconnect the fuel feed at the Injector Rail when Prime / Cranking?
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I think it's to do with the power supply to the relay, or rather the earthing/negative. The relay is not energising as it should to make the bridge to supply 12v to the pump. Jacking the relay causes the pump to prime and engine runs great on petrol and gas. So I think the pump and filter are fine. There is good voltage to the supply side of the relay (small spade) with engine running. Can only assume the fault is on the other side.
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the purple relay nearest the wing is the injector relay not the fuel pump relay. the purple relay next to it and nearer the engine is the fuel pump relay. sounds like your lpg is switching off the injector relay when it shouldn't.
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if you want to test your fuel pump pressure this kit for £8.95 works i have used it on my v6, screws into the schraeder valve at the back of the engine without much difficulty
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131955303383
pressure should be 3.7 bar approx mine was 3.6
sounds like it is your injector relay supply/earth not the fuel pump relay/fuel pump though
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Thanks for that. I thought the one by the wing was fuel pump. In fact I think it must be? When I jack it the petrol pump starts.
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I thought it was the other one too. If you join the 30 to 87 link (big spades) the fuel pump runs ? . Even with other relay removed.?
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I don't have the wiring diagram in front of me, but they share a couple of common wires but not wired in series iirc...
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both oof and haynes sometimes confuse the two but mostly they say the one most on the passenger side is the injector relay. on my 2.6 2001 omega it is, when plugged in the injector circuit makes a noise under the plenum. suppose that could be the fuel pressure? pulling the wing side relay causes the engine to stall in 2 seconds i would think the fuel pump relay would take longer to drain 3.7bar of fuel
this relay was the cause of my car stalling then failing to start completely.
have a look carefully here http://oldsite.omegaowners.com//forum/YaBB.pl?num=1176542235
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Mines the 3.2 engine which isn't shown on that thread. However, I notice there is a diagram for the V6's. One of which gives K44 as the fuel relay. ie the wing side relay.
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yes i said read carefully the other diagram there for the 3.0 says its the injector relay. haynes agrees, except once
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Blimey!...Think I've fixed it. But not sure which of the following cured the problem:
Firstly, I cleaned the earth connections below the battery.
Secondly, and I think this was the problem. The purple relay control is straight from the ECU. I unclipped the looms from the ECU and sprayed the contacts with contact cleaner. Put it back together.
Car is now behaving perfectly......I am so happy!!!! :D
She's booked it for the welding work she needs to pass the MOT, and hopefully that will be that.
Thanks everyone for all your input. :y
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got there in the end. It al made interesting reading Happy to see it solved :y
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excellent glad you found it
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Hopefully all sorted :y
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Congratulations! So it turned out to be a poor conection at the ECU multi-pin connector. I suppose we should expect dodgy connections on 15 year old cars, the tricky thing is locating and correcting them. Another Omega lives to fight another day. Well done the forum too.
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Hopefully, when someone has a similar problem they'll read this post. The easiest fix possible. 8)
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Secondly, and I think this was the problem. The purple relay control is straight from the ECU. I unclipped the looms from the ECU and sprayed the contacts with contact cleaner. Put it back together.
Car is now behaving perfectly......I am so happy!!!! :D
So it looks like the one persistent error code, P0650, was signalling an ECU fault albeit just the ECU contacts. Glad to hear the error codes can be helpful. :y
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I don't understand how a faulty ECU signal to a relay can result in omly 9.5 volts being delivered to the fuel pump.
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I don't understand how a faulty ECU signal to a relay can result in omly 9.5 volts being delivered to the fuel pump.
My understanding is the 9.5V measurement was when the engine was cranking over, ;) if not I dont think I going to read it over again. ::)
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I don't understand how a faulty ECU signal to a relay can result in omly 9.5 volts being delivered to the fuel pump.
. hi terry. it looks like the ecu bad connection wasnt switching the fuel pump relay on.the voltage measured at the fuel pump would just be the normal cranking voltage ( possibly a bit low due to cable volt drop and that the battery wasnt totally charged up.i see what you mean thou. he was measuring 9.5v at the pump but it still didnt run.hopefully its solved now ?.
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I'm wondering if this could be the cause of Tony h's mystery non starting, tried bloody everything to no avail. I'll give him a nudge in case he hasn't scrapped the bugger
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I don't understand how a faulty ECU signal to a relay can result in omly 9.5 volts being delivered to the fuel pump.
My understanding is the 9.5V measurement was when the engine was cranking over, ;) if not I dont think I going to read it over again. ::)
That would explain it. Measurement with engine running would clarify things.
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Secondly, and I think this was the problem. The purple relay control is straight from the ECU. I unclipped the looms from the ECU and sprayed the contacts with contact cleaner. Put it back together.
Car is now behaving perfectly......I am so happy!!!! :D
So it looks like the one persistent error code, P0650, was signalling an ECU fault albeit just the ECU contacts. Glad to hear the error codes can be helpful. :y
*sigh*. I give up with you.
For others reading this, that advice is incorrect and misplaced. Beware.
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Secondly, and I think this was the problem. The purple relay control is straight from the ECU. I unclipped the looms from the ECU and sprayed the contacts with contact cleaner. Put it back together.
Car is now behaving perfectly......I am so happy!!!! :D
So it looks like the one persistent error code, P0650, was signalling an ECU fault albeit just the ECU contacts. Glad to hear the error codes can be helpful. :y
*sigh*. I give up with you.
For others reading this, that advice is incorrect and misplaced. Beware.
oh dear ::). the word you are looking for I think is dangleberries and that is what you have written.
re-read the thread, OP got one error code that was persistent, namely P0650. then read this https://www.obd-codes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10694 ('PCM' in the link means 'Powertrain Control Module', i.e. ECU)
or this https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650: etc... etc...
alternatively start pulling plugs and pouring oil into the cylinders ;D
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That was actually a tried and tested process to eliminate bore wash as a reason for non starting... but hey, wtf does anyone else know :-X
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re-read the thread, OP got one error code that was persistent, namely P0650. then read this https://www.obd-codes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10694 ('PCM' in the link means 'Powertrain Control Module', i.e. ECU)
or this https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650: etc... etc...
As said earlier in this thread, follow the manufacturer specific descriptions, not some random generic set. Did you bother looking at a manufacturer specific list? Or follow any diagnostic flows? No, you just jumped in with a ludicrous "change the ECU", which is the only 'dangle berries' on this thread.
100m sperm, and that was the fastest? *
The OP did the right thing, and worked it through with a meter :y.
OP - if cleaning or playing with connector has cured more than one unrelated fault, consider checking the state of the loom inside the plug, as on 3.2s (no idea why they seem more prone), we have started to see a few problems with loom breaking down.
What state was the plug in, and if the connectors looked corroded, is the seal still good?
* Admins - I expect a significant ban for that, but it had to be said, the guy is giving out so much random crap over so many threads, probably to feed his own arrogant ego. I'm worried people might actually one day do what he suggests.
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re-read the thread, OP got one error code that was persistent, namely P0650. then read this https://www.obd-codes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10694 ('PCM' in the link means 'Powertrain Control Module', i.e. ECU)
or this https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650: etc... etc...
As said earlier in this thread, follow the manufacturer specific descriptions, not some random generic set. Did you bother looking at a manufacturer specific list? Or follow any diagnostic flows? No, you just jumped in with a ludicrous "change the ECU", which is the only 'dangle berries' on this thread.
100m sperm, and that was the fastest? *
The OP did the right thing, and worked it through with a meter :y.
OP - if cleaning or playing with connector has cured more than one unrelated fault, consider checking the state of the loom inside the plug, as on 3.2s (no idea why they seem more prone), we have started to see a few problems with loom breaking down.
What state was the plug in, and if the connectors looked corroded, is the seal still good?
* Admins - I expect a significant ban for that, but it had to be said, the guy is giving out so much random crap over so many threads, probably to feed his own arrogant ego. I'm worried people might actually one day do what he suggests.
anyone reading this thread will observe
1) the fault was the ECU contacts
2) the only error code that persisted indicated an issue with the ECU
3) your petty abuse reveals more about you that about me
maybe you should get back to bending your pollen filters ;D
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re-read the thread, OP got one error code that was persistent, namely P0650. then read this https://www.obd-codes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10694 ('PCM' in the link means 'Powertrain Control Module', i.e. ECU)
or this https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650: etc... etc...
As said earlier in this thread, follow the manufacturer specific descriptions, not some random generic set. Did you bother looking at a manufacturer specific list? Or follow any diagnostic flows? No, you just jumped in with a ludicrous "change the ECU", which is the only 'dangle berries' on this thread.
100m sperm, and that was the fastest? *
The OP did the right thing, and worked it through with a meter :y.
OP - if cleaning or playing with connector has cured more than one unrelated fault, consider checking the state of the loom inside the plug, as on 3.2s (no idea why they seem more prone), we have started to see a few problems with loom breaking down.
What state was the plug in, and if the connectors looked corroded, is the seal still good?
* Admins - I expect a significant ban for that, but it had to be said, the guy is giving out so much random crap over so many threads, probably to feed his own arrogant ego. I'm worried people might actually one day do what he suggests.
anyone reading this thread will observe I play with my self.....
Fixed.....I might get a ban for that too .....
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re-read the thread, OP got one error code that was persistent, namely P0650. then read this https://www.obd-codes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10694 ('PCM' in the link means 'Powertrain Control Module', i.e. ECU)
or this https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650: etc... etc...
As said earlier in this thread, follow the manufacturer specific descriptions, not some random generic set. Did you bother looking at a manufacturer specific list? Or follow any diagnostic flows? No, you just jumped in with a ludicrous "change the ECU", which is the only 'dangle berries' on this thread.
100m sperm, and that was the fastest? *
The OP did the right thing, and worked it through with a meter :y.
OP - if cleaning or playing with connector has cured more than one unrelated fault, consider checking the state of the loom inside the plug, as on 3.2s (no idea why they seem more prone), we have started to see a few problems with loom breaking down.
What state was the plug in, and if the connectors looked corroded, is the seal still good?
* Admins - I expect a significant ban for that, but it had to be said, the guy is giving out so much random crap over so many threads, probably to feed his own arrogant ego. I'm worried people might actually one day do what he suggests.
anyone reading this thread will observe
1) the fault was the ECU contacts
2) the only error code that persisted indicated an issue with the ECU
3) your petty abuse reveals more about you that about me
maybe you should get back to bending your pollen filters ;D
Fixed.....I might get a ban for that too .....
is this how it works now, put up some childish abuse followed by 'i expect a ban' and nothing happens? no wonder new people don't post much or stay long. :(
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I'm smelling some serious handbag leather round here
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anyone reading this thread will observe
1) the fault was the ECU contacts
Hopefully :y
2) the only error code that persisted indicated an issue with the ECU
Nope, that's complete utter 'dangle berries' from some random shit you've read on that there T'interweb. The error code DOES NOT indicate an error with the ECU. EVER. In fact, we don't even have the full error code, but wouldn't expect you to understand that.
3) your petty abuse reveals more about you that about me
For most people, I'd publically apologise if they managed to be so persistent in getting under my normally thick skin.
maybe you should get back to bending your pollen filters ;D
Eh? That one might need explaining. When have I ever bent a pollen filter?
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oh dear ::).
yes we do have the full code, see http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=139708.0 and this was the only error code that persisted.
yes the P0650 code can indicate problems with the ecu, i can't be bothered to repost all the links just google it
this "generic doesn't apply to omegas" stuff is dangleberries, odb2 started as generic, read up on it.
you've been a pollen filter bender all your life apparently see http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=139899.msg1813867#msg1813867 ;D
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The P0650 codes indicate problems with the malfunction indicator light circuit. Really not sure how you get from there to a failed ECU, TBH. :-\
Except that every slack jawed lazy mechanic will diagnose a faulty ECU as soon as they fail to understand what's going on. Just ignore them. ::)
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The P0650 codes indicate problems with the malfunction indicator light circuit. Really not sure how you get from there to a failed ECU, TBH. :-\
yes the P0650 code can indicate problems with the ecu, i can't be bothered to repost all the links just google it ::)
Except that every slack jawed lazy mechanic will diagnose a faulty ECU as soon as they fail to understand what's going on. Just ignore them. ::)
no doubt. except in this case it was a problem with the ecu, as the error code pointed at ::)
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The P0650 codes indicate problems with the malfunction indicator light circuit. Really not sure how you get from there to a failed ECU, TBH. :-\
yes the P0650 code can indicate problems with the ecu, i can't be bothered to repost all the links just google it ::)
Except that every slack jawed lazy mechanic will diagnose a faulty ECU as soon as they fail to understand what's going on. Just ignore them. ::)
no doubt. except in this case it was a problem with the ecu, as the error code pointed at ::)
Here are the results of my google from OBD codes.com
"This code is a generic powertrain code. It is considered generic because it applies to all makes and models of vehicles (1996-newer), although specific repair steps may be slightly different depending on the model. This diagnostic trouble code (DTC) is set when the vehicle's Powertrain Control Module detects a fault with the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) electrical circuit. The MIL is commonly referred to as the "Check Engine Light" or "Service Engine Soon" light. MIL is the correct term, however. Basically what happens on some vehicles is the vehicles' PCM senses too high or low, or no voltage present through the M.I. lamp. The PCM controls the lamp by monitoring the ground circuit of the lamp and checks the voltage on that ground circuit. Note: It is normal operation for the malfunction indicator lamp to illuminate for a few seconds and then go out when the ignition is turned on or the car is started.
Read more at: https://www.obd-codes.com/p0650
Copyright OBD-Codes.com
Nothing in there about ECU`s, in fact the first thing is says is that it ia a generic code :-\
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no doubt. except in this case it was a problem with the ecu, as the error code pointed at ::)
There was nothing wrong with the ECU in this case. It was a poor connection. :-\
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no doubt. except in this case it was a problem with the ecu, as the error code pointed at ::)
There was nothing wrong with the ECU in this case. It was a poor connection. :-\
this could go on forever ::).. there was a fault with the ecu connections. the error code indicated check the ecu. read the thread ::) ::)
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Only because you keep insisting... :-X
But I see that in the face of irrefutable evidence you have changed your tune from a faulty ecu to a faulty ecu connection. ;D
I would wager that the 0650 code is still present because the bulb has either blown or been removed... ::)
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Only because you keep insisting... :-X
But I see that in the face of irrefutable evidence you have changed your tune from a faulty ecu to a faulty ecu connection. ;D
I would wager that the 0650 code is still present because the bulb has either blown or been removed... ::)
i bet you 6 tablespoons of oil that 0650 doesn't re-appear once cleared ;D
and some copper grease for your cats ;D.
and an unbent used pollen filter for filter bender boy. ;D
and some MAF cleaner for filter bender metal dissolving contact cleaner boy. ;D
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Really ???
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yes the P0650 code can indicate problems with the ecu, i can't be bothered to repost all the links just google it
Nope. Not on an Omega. As has been stated on so many occasions, if only you were receptive to understanding and learning. In fact, I doubt on any cars. Show me a link where its been CORRECTLY diagnosed as an ECU fault on an Omega (or any euro car, as euro cars do NOT use OBDII but EOBD).
Now please stop trolling. Thanks.