Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie Zoom on 25 July 2017, 20:23:28
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The march of the electric car has taken another step forward:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40718892
I have often said in 25 years all cars will be electric (apart from classics such as the Omega!! ;D), but now perhaps earlier? :-\
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I have often said in 25 years all cars will be electric (apart from classics such as the Omega!! ;D), but now perhaps earlier? :-\
It won't happen, 100% battery power is not the answer, petrol and diesel will continue to get cleaner and cleaner. Battery cars will continue as a "bit on the side" - with main bread and butter being petrol and diesel.
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Hydrogen is the future. Electric cars have been around for a century or more.
I'm working on teleportation. :)
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Hydrogen is the future. Electric cars have been around for a century or more.
I'm working on teleportation. :)
Yup, and making hydrogen is the perfect use for the renewable energy that's made in the middle of the night when no-one wants to use it.
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With an announcement, not that long ago from Volvo where they are not going to produce petrol engined cars after 2018 (?), I reckon that petrol engined cars will be left behind and the hybrid's will be the future... Once hybrid's become the 'norm' Hyrdrogen engined cars will be the future.... I reckon it'll be within the next 50 years that hybrids and hydrogen engined cars will be the 'norm'...
Electric only cars would need to be able to do long distance - say 400 miles on a single charge, before they become popular enough to weed out the hybrid's....
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That yanks have been running diesels with hydrogen for years, whether it works is the question
There are loads of e300 td on hydrogen vids on youtube
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With an announcement, not that long ago from Volvo where they are not going to produce petrol engined cars after 2018 (?), I reckon that petrol engined cars will be left behind and the hybrids will be the future... Once hybrids become the 'norm' Hydrogen engined cars will be the future.... I reckon it'll be within the next 50 years that hybrids and hydrogen engined cars will be the 'norm'...
No, Volvo announced that they're not going to DESIGN I/C engined cars after 2020. But that's pure marketing wank as they've just finished replacing their entire range with brand new designs, which includes new I/C engines. They're set for years, as their models have always had long lives. They already sell hybrids.
As always, it's infrastructure that matters: supplying large amounts of hydrogen requires lots of electricity to separate it, fully electric vehicles require a good supply of electricity to charge the batteries(which are another problem) and fossil fuels have to be separated from the crude oil. None of those are things you would willingly implement from scratch. I didn't include hybrids in that list as they are at best a stopgap - they are a political solution to an engineering problem, and we all know how good those are!
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Electric only cars would need to be able to do long distance - say 400 miles on a single charge, before they become popular enough to weed out the hybrid's....
Tesla will be at that benchmark within the next 2yrs I reckon, they're at 335 NEDC already. Admittedly that's an exotic super car, but you only have to look at how the tech filters down, inside of 10yrs 350-400will be the norm.
The other thing I think is about education. Realistically, very few people need 300+ miles of range if you have space to charge at home. I commuted to the far side of bedford today from Kidderminster, 220 mile round trip. I would say that the number of people who go much further in a day (other than occasional trips) is pretty limited.
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Electric only cars would need to be able to do long distance - say 400 miles on a single charge, before they become popular enough to weed out the hybrid's....
Tesla will be at that benchmark within the next 2yrs I reckon, they're at 335 NEDC already. Admittedly that's an exotic super car, but you only have to look at how the tech filters down, inside of 10yrs 350-400will be the norm.
The other thing I think is about education. Realistically, very few people need 300+ miles of range if you have space to charge at home. I commuted to the far side of bedford today from Kidderminster, 220 mile round trip. I would say that the number of people who go much further in a day (other than occasional trips) is pretty limited.
400 miles of range in year one.
After 5 years you'll be lucky to make it to the corner shop. Manufacturers won't replace battery under warranty as it falls under normal wear and use.
Cost of a new battery pack after 5 years will probably be more than the car is worth. Over £20000 for an Infiniti M35H battery pack.
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Tesla will be at that benchmark within the next 2yrs I reckon, they're at 335 NEDC already. Admittedly that's an exotic super car, but you only have to look at how the tech filters down, inside of 10yrs 350-400will be the norm.
The other thing I think is about education. Realistically, very few people need 300+ miles of range if you have space to charge at home. I commuted to the far side of bedford today from Kidderminster, 220 mile round trip. I would say that the number of people who go much further in a day (other than occasional trips) is pretty limited.
An electric car would be perfect for about 90% of my usage but for two large problems: I have no off street parking so charging one isn't possible, and the £1500 I paid for the Omega is the most I've ever paid for any of the 28(I think ;D ) cars I've owned. Then there is the real problem with electric cars that nobody has an answer for: where will the electricity come from?
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Tesla will be at that benchmark within the next 2yrs I reckon, they're at 335 NEDC already. Admittedly that's an exotic super car, but you only have to look at how the tech filters down, inside of 10yrs 350-400will be the norm.
The other thing I think is about education. Realistically, very few people need 300+ miles of range if you have space to charge at home. I commuted to the far side of bedford today from Kidderminster, 220 mile round trip. I would say that the number of people who go much further in a day (other than occasional trips) is pretty limited.
An electric car would be perfect for about 90% of my usage but for two large problems: I have no off street parking so charging one isn't possible, and the £1500 I paid for the Omega is the most I've ever paid for any of the 28(I think ;D ) cars I've owned. Then there is the real problem with electric cars that nobody has an answer for: where will the electricity come from?
Barely any spare capacity on a cold dark January evening. :-\
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Tesla will be at that benchmark within the next 2yrs I reckon, they're at 335 NEDC already. Admittedly that's an exotic super car, but you only have to look at how the tech filters down, inside of 10yrs 350-400will be the norm.
The other thing I think is about education. Realistically, very few people need 300+ miles of range if you have space to charge at home. I commuted to the far side of bedford today from Kidderminster, 220 mile round trip. I would say that the number of people who go much further in a day (other than occasional trips) is pretty limited.
An electric car would be perfect for about 90% of my usage but for two large problems: I have no off street parking so charging one isn't possible, and the £1500 I paid for the Omega is the most I've ever paid for any of the 28(I think ;D ) cars I've owned. Then there is the real problem with electric cars that nobody has an answer for: where will the electricity come from?
Barely any spare capacity on a cold dark January evening. :-\
I meant to charge the thing in the first place. But yes, inclement weather reduces the range, as several Leaf owners I recovered seemed surprised to discover.
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Hydrogen is the future. Electric cars have been around for a century or more.
I'm working on teleportation. :)
The problem with teleportation is - what happens if you have more than one receiver?
Can you imagine more than one copy of Lord Sittapong Meerkat?
SHUDDER! ::) :o
rON.
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400 miles of range in year one.
After 5 years you'll be lucky to make it to the corner shop. Manufacturers won't replace battery under warranty as it falls under normal wear and use.
Cost of a new battery pack after 5 years will probably be more than the car is worth. Over £20000 for an Infiniti M35H battery pack.
Not many electric cars have gone that far as yet, but the Tesla Loop cars (a company that spends its time ferrying people from LA to vegas using Model S's) passed 200k last year and they were showing about 6% loss over that distance. They also charge their cars to 100% at every charge which is sub optimal for battery life. Tesla suggest a routine charge to 90% unless you need that extra 10% that day.
By that time, you have saved about £17k on fuel compared to a diesel that returns 45mpg. Plenty to get your hand in your pocket and renew it if the mood takes you. Not that a 45mpg could match the performance. Compared to a petrol that does 0-60 in under 5s (like the M140i for example) that can do 25-27mpg, savings are nearer £30k.
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It's not just the 400 mile requirement - It's also the charging time. If I'm driving to Scotland or The Alps 400 miles will almost get me there, but I don't then want to wait 8+ hours to charge the thing up to go the rest of the way. It might work if you've got a 1-2 hour commute each day, and can recharge overnight, but you're also going to need a second car if you ever want to go 200+ miles away. Or you could take the plane/train and hire a car at the other end.
With a petrol car (Omega) I can do the 400 miles, then re-fill with petrol in 10 minutes (including having a shower, shave and s**t) and start the next 400 miles. Not possible in an electric/battery car.
The Physics of batteries is well understood, and has been for probably 50 years. Increases in performance have only come about because engineers have worked out how to extract various rare earth elements and use them in industrial processes, and package them in useable ways. These elements are both scarce and expensive. Anyone telling you increases/improvements battery tech will solve the problems is whistling in the wind. Improvements from here on in will be incremental and follow the laws of diminishing returns.
I'm calling Emperors new Clothes on this.
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Luddites the lot of you.
Range will increase. A journalist took an electric car from London to a European capital city (amsterdam?) recently. Wherever it was it was just shy, I think, of 300 miles. Tesla x.
Range surely could easily be addressed by cassette extra batteries already charged ready for exchange at a service station.
If a new electric car was cheaper than a petrol car , the dynamics would change very quickly. E.g. Buy a car and rent the batteries. Government support for the battery part? Loads of possibilities. We arent thinking outside the box.
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Range will increase.
How? Batteries have a finite energy capacity defined by the laws pf physics. Increasing the range means either increasing the size of the batteries, or increasing the efficiency of the use of the energy so it lasts longer. That means better aerodynamics, bearings, and driving slower - all these things can be improved, but only by fractions of a percent per iteration.
A journalist took an electric car from London to a European capital city (amsterdam?) recently. Wherever it was it was just shy, I think, of 300 miles. Tesla x.
Whoopee doo. A car with a 300 mile range. That's a real advance on the status quo.
Range surely could easily be addressed by cassette extra batteries already charged ready for exchange at a service station.
So for every car that want's to drive 300+ miles a day there has to be a second battery pack strategically placed somewhere downrange. So I wake up in the morning, find out that an American aircraft carrier is visiting Portsmouth with 80+ jets on deck, and I decide I want to go looksee. But first I have to make sure there is a 'spare' battery pack available in Pompey for me to swap out. And when I get to Pompey I discover there are are some B2's & B52s due in Fairford.
Spare battery packs would only work if every car used a standardised battery and there was a plenty full supply of them. Won't happen - the batteries will be the most expensive part of any car.
If a new electric car was cheaper than a petrol car , the dynamics would change very quickly. E.g. Buy a car and rent the batteries.
Dream on. How can half a ton of rare earth metals plus all the electric motors containing lots of copper ever be cheaper than a lump of pig iron and aluminium with 4/6/8 pots in it.
Government support for the battery part? Loads of possibilities. We arent thinking outside the box.
The government only has tax payers money to spend (i.e. yours and mine) , and speculating of vapourware ideas is a spectacularly poor use of such money.
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All sound arguments but you are thinking in the box.
Remember how every fledgling idea has been rubbished through the ages.
The only thing that is constant is change and it is at an exponential rate.
Who says you have to use your own car 3 times to do a 900mile journey? Who says journeys of 300 plus a day will be permitted in the dark age of motoring we are heading for? ;D
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All sound arguments but you are thinking in the box.
Remember how every fledgling idea has been rubbished through the ages.
The only thing that is constant is change and it is at an exponential rate.
Who says you have to use your own car 3 times to do a 900mile journey? Who says journeys of 300 plus a day will be permitted in the dark age of motoring we are heading for? ;D
That's probably the key point .. drive 300 miles then swap the vehicle for an identical one that is pre-charged, leaving yours to be charged for the next user .. :) all done on very short term hire, you no longer "own" a vehicle .. you "rent" it for the duration you need it . :)
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Remember how every fledgling idea has been rubbished through the ages.
The only thing that is constant is change and it is at an exponential rate.
Most changes start out by being incremental - evolutionary if you like. Once that change proves to be an 'improvement' others can take on the idea and develop it further. Initial development may well be exponential, but sooner or later the developments slow down and you get to the point of diminishing returns - the idea has been developed as far as it can be. We're at that point with many current technologies, batteries and cars included.
Who says you have to use your own car 3 times to do a 900mile journey? Who says journeys of 300 plus a day will be permitted in the dark age of motoring we are heading for? ;D
I have a car that's worth £500 tops, and a similar amount per year will see it taxed and insured. With 3 tanks of petrol (£200) I can do that 900 mile trip in perhaps 12 hours. I can leave tonight - well I could if I wasn't tanked up with cheap Rioja. How is it any form of improvement telling me I have to pay for 3 electric cars, plus the electricity to run them to do that journey in the future - assuming the govt will allow me to do it?
Out of the box / Blue sky thinking my arris - what you're proposing is Big Brother Government controlling out movements.
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That's probably the key point .. drive 300 miles then swap the vehicle for an identical one that is pre-charged, leaving yours to be charged for the next user .. :) all done on very short term hire, you no longer "own" a vehicle .. you "rent" it for the duration you need it . :)
But it's completely impractical. When you start out, how can you know that there is going to be a car available 300 miles in any random direction. Then another 300 miles further on. And what size of car? A Ford Ka or a nice roomy Omega. You're replacing the need to refill with petrol every 300 miles with the need to swap to a completely different car every 300 miles - and the car you drop off is unusable for up to 8 hours whilst it recharges, and is cleaned of all the pi55 and puke stains the previous occupant left.
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I have often said in 25 years all cars will be electric (apart from classics such as the Omega!! ;D), but now perhaps earlier? :-\
It won't happen, 100% battery power is not the answer, petrol and diesel will continue to get cleaner and cleaner. Battery cars will continue as a "bit on the side" - with main bread and butter being petrol and diesel.
best have a sit down -
"New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40723581
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Hydrogen is the future. Electric cars have been around for a century or more.
I'm working on teleportation. :)
Don't forget to hang up a fly swat in your teleportation machine. ;) :)
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I'm calling Emperors new Clothes on this.
Unless someone came up with a new technology, that was more reliable, had higher energy density, charged faster and was made out of more readily available materials.
but you're right, the technology in this area is settled, so that would be really unlikely (https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology).
The point about Lithium Ion is that until comparatively recently it's done everything we've needed it to so comparatively few advances have been made. And new technologies always seem preposterous to the settled incumbents.
Consider trying to write the business case for using petrol today:
There's a product, which we can only get from 100's of meters below the eath's surface. We're going to dig it up, refine it at great expense and ship it half way across the globe. It's highly flammable and potentially explosive, but we're going to sell it to people and let them drive around at high speeds with it contained in a plastic box underneath their cars. Oh and when they use it it's going to release noxious chemicals onto the atmosphere.
People would tell you you were off your rocker. ;D
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Consider trying to write the business case for using petrol today:
There's a product, which we can only get from 100's of meters below the eath's surface. We're going to dig it up, refine it at great expense and ship it half way across the globe. It's highly flammable and potentially explosive, but we're going to sell it to people and let them drive around at high speeds with it contained in a plastic box underneath their cars. Oh and when they use it it's going to release noxious chemicals onto the atmosphere.
People would tell you you were off your rocker. ;D
Consider trying to write the business case for using batteries today - made from various substances including Lithium, Sodium, Various Acids & Alkalies :
There's a product, which we can only get from 100's of meters below the earth's surface. Check. Still need to generate the leccie somehow, and the Lithium comes from where?
We're going to dig it up, refine it at great expense and ship it half way across the globe. Check - Ditto.
It's highly flammable and potentially explosive, but we're going to sell it to people and let them drive around at high speeds with it contained in a plastic box underneath their cars. Check, A Lithium Ion battery has never been known to catch fire. ::)
Oh and when they use it it's going to release noxious chemicals onto the atmosphere. Check - where are 'dead' batteries going to go, and where is the electricity to charge them from coming from?
Smoke and mirrors. A politician announces a policy that's coming into effect 23 years in the future and we believe them?
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Smoke and mirrors. A politician announces a policy that's coming into effect 23 years in the future and we believe them?
This is the point. He knows full well that he'll be dribbling into his cardigan in a care home by the time anybody has proved him wrong, so move along... nothing to see here.
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The sad reality is cars are killing us indirectly.. where i live the nearest city is plagued by pollution. Something like 32 places outside London are over the Eurpean standard.- doing nothing is not an option.
So the French and British announce a ban on sales of new diesels etc. True 2040 might not be met but it is a stake in the ground.
I have a sneaky feeling that a plus benefit of all this will be a boost to GDP as perfectly good cars , that are cheap and can do big mileage in a day ( we have ourselves done 1500 in 24 hours) are hounded off the road.
I must move in the wrong circles - piss and puke in cars! Easily overcome by design feature that allows the inside to be sluiced down while being recharged. No pukers/pissers could specify more luxurious vehicle with fabric and soft seats. ;D
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I have a Leaf and range varies from between 60miles and 110miles INDICATED depending on the weather and how hard its been driven. After 2.5 years we are begining to notice a drop off in the battery life. Until they get the range from the batteries and also the life from the batteries its going to be non starter. We are due a change of car in the next 6 months and we are dumping the leaf and going back to a small petrol.
No doubt they suit some people (inner city with an abundance of public charge spots) for us, Cumbria and hardly any convient charge spots its a non starter.
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It's not just the 400 mile requirement - It's also the charging time. If I'm driving to Scotland or The Alps 400 miles will almost get me there, but I don't then want to wait 8+ hours to charge the thing up to go the rest of the way. It might work if you've got a 1-2 hour commute each day, and can recharge overnight, but you're also going to need a second car if you ever want to go 200+ miles away. Or you could take the plane/train and hire a car at the other end.
With a petrol car (Omega) I can do the 400 miles, then re-fill with petrol in 10 minutes (including having a shower, shave and s**t) and start the next 400 miles. Not possible in an electric/battery car.
The Physics of batteries is well understood, and has been for probably 50 years. Increases in performance have only come about because engineers have worked out how to extract various rare earth elements and use them in industrial processes, and package them in useable ways. These elements are both scarce and expensive. Anyone telling you increases/improvements battery tech will solve the problems is whistling in the wind. Improvements from here on in will be incremental and follow the laws of diminishing returns.
I'm calling Emperors new Clothes on this.
Yes.
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All sound arguments but you are thinking in the box.
Remember how every fledgling idea has been rubbished through the ages.
The only thing that is constant is change and it is at an exponential rate.
Who says you have to use your own car 3 times to do a 900mile journey? Who says journeys of 300 plus a day will be permitted in the dark age of motoring we are heading for? ;D
That's probably the key point .. drive 300 miles then swap the vehicle for an identical one that is pre-charged, leaving yours to be charged for the next user .. :) all done on very short term hire, you no longer "own" a vehicle .. you "rent" it for the duration you need it . :)
Ah....but you don't know what the people before you used the car for. They may have been part of the local 'dogging club'.
I think I prefer my own car. :y
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I will keep using my petrol & diesel cars till either I or they give up the ghost, I can honestly state that I will never consider an electric vehicle.
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I have a Leaf and range varies from between 60miles and 110miles INDICATED depending on the weather and how hard its been driven. After 2.5 years we are begining to notice a drop off in the battery life. Until they get the range from the batteries and also the life from the batteries its going to be non starter. We are due a change of car in the next 6 months and we are dumping the leaf and going back to a small petrol.
No doubt they suit some people (inner city with an abundance of public charge spots) for us, Cumbria and hardly any convient charge spots its a non starter.
The reality.
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Anything with a battery is shot after a few years....
Hence they do these battery rental setup instead, the Leaf offers this. But it's then a mine field for second hand buyers, are the batteries leased or part of the car?
I would have thought lease battery would be better for long term ownership, but Leaf forums suggest it's better to own them. Yet you would have a huge cost of replacing them at some point? :-\
Plus a Leaf is ok for nipping about town and probably my commute to be honest, however a battery powered Transit? Ones in full business use can easily rack up 1,000 miles a day....
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The leaf has its advantages that's for sure... It costs buttons to charge, local driving is brilliant (why bother use a metric tonne of petrol to nip to the shops 2 miles away) its plenty fast enough (hit the limiter at 100mph), its great fun for scaring the old dears in the supermarket car park who don't hear it coming plus many more.
BUT...
I have NEVER got past the range worry that seems to be hard-wired into my brain, as said the batteries are starting to flag, the lack of public charge points around my area is a nightmare (30 mile round trip to hit the local fast charge point) - The fact that in 3-5 years you are going to have to pay out for a new battery pack unless you lease them.
We thought we would be able to get across to the parents about 75miles away with range to spare and a smug look on our faces - that's never going to happen in a million years not when new and NEVER 2.5 years down the line, we would need to break the journey up and stop at a charge point which then adds at least 20minutes to the journey.... Its easier just to jump in the petrol and drive....
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For electric cars to become a viable replacement for petrol / diesel we need both an order of magnitude change in the storage density of batteries to cope with a day's vehicle usage in any scenario, not just a short commute, AND an infrastructure capable of generating and supplying the power. Think about the rate of energy transfer at the forecourt of a large motorway services with perhaps 30 odd fuel pumps. How on earth do you provide electrical energy at that rate? As has been said, these are both mature technologies where breakthroughs are rare.
I think petrol PHEVs will be the future for some time yet. You can then ban their use under IC power in city centres but you have a vehicle that's not a total chocolate teapot for any other use case and the grid doesn't have to support much of the energy supply.
Either that or we adopt more victorian attitudes on personal mobility (if only we still had the victorians' railway network). ;D
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For electric cars to become a viable replacement for petrol / diesel we need both an order of magnitude change in the storage density of batteries to cope with a day's vehicle usage in any scenario, not just a short commute, AND an infrastructure capable of generating and supplying the power. Think about the rate of energy transfer at the forecourt of a large motorway services with perhaps 30 odd fuel pumps. How on earth do you provide electrical energy at that rate? As has been said, these are both mature technologies where breakthroughs are rare.
I think petrol PHEVs will be the future for some time yet. You can then ban their use under IC power in city centres but you have a vehicle that's not a total chocolate teapot for any other use case and the grid doesn't have to support much of the energy supply.
Either that or we adopt more victorian attitudes on personal mobility (if only we still had the victorians' railway network). ;D
Plenty of solutions. e.g.Fuel station mini power stations. Feeding surplus to the grid at a profit so that would encourage the investors. Could be a Big windmill for each station colour coded so you can see it is a recharging station from miles away as you are limping along! No charging going on? then pump water up into a tower to generate HEP charging when needed. Remember the box when thinking. How many petrol stations were there when cars were invented? Rhetorical question. I agree with you about the railway network. It grieves me that councils were so stupid as to sell plots on former lines for houses to be built. We are so going to need the routes one day.
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Electric cars should have air ducts with mini wind turbines in them, so as you drive the turbines are generating electricity to charge the battery. :y
The faster you drive the further you can go! :)
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Electric cars should have air ducts with mini wind turbines in them, so as you drive the turbines are generating electricity to charge the battery. :y
The faster you drive the further you can go! :)
No. The turbines would create air resistance and, therefore, use more power driving the car forward. Stupid idea.......unless......they made a kind of jet engine whooshing noise which sounded cool, then they'd be a good idea. ;D
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Well, I think the future is in small, very efficient aircraft that can stay aloft using invisible energy present in the atmosphere.
Oh, hang on... 8)
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We are off to France for some long distance in the Leaf Saturday. When we got them I thought we would use the Omega's for long trips but we just don't in reality. Rapid charging is fast, easy and fits with my bladder and coffee requirements :-)
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Oh and when they use it it's going to release noxious chemicals onto the atmosphere. Check - where are 'dead' batteries going to go, and where is the electricity to charge them from coming from?
This is one of the oldest, tiredest and most incorrect fossil fuel vs battery arguments in the book. When a battery is dead, you recycle it, and make another. You argue that lithium is difficult to mine/obtain and then claim dead batteries which contain loads of it will be just thrown away? Bizarre. This is another false equivalence that people trot out when talking about electric cars. How do you equate digging up a material that can be used again and again to one which is dug up, burned and then takes millions of years to reform? It makes no sense.
Also the electrical generation argument is partially valid, but it makes the assumptions that a) we don't grow our use of renewables and b) that petrol is brought to the pumps by the petrol fairies. The co2 release and environmental impact of oil drilling and refining needs to be considered if you are going to consider the environmental impact of the source of the electricity generated. Otherwise the comparison is at best skewed or, more accurately invalid.
Smoke and mirrors. A politician announces a policy that's coming into effect 23 years in the future and we believe them?
Not in the slightest. I don't believe most things politicos have to say. What I do firmly believe is that digging stuff up and setting fire to it is not a model which can continue indefinitely.
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and the car you drop off is unusable for up to 8 hours whilst it recharges, and is cleaned of all the pi55 and puke stains the previous occupant left.
Well, even using the settled technology (which demonstrably isn't settled) tesla can already charge a car to 80% in 40mins and 100% in 75mins. Do you bother to research any of this, or just post the first number/"fact" that comes to mind? ::)
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I have a Leaf and range varies from between 60miles and 110miles INDICATED depending on the weather and how hard its been driven. After 2.5 years we are begining to notice a drop off in the battery life. Until they get the range from the batteries and also the life from the batteries its going to be non starter. We are due a change of car in the next 6 months and we are dumping the leaf and going back to a small petrol.
No doubt they suit some people (inner city with an abundance of public charge spots) for us, Cumbria and hardly any convient charge spots its a non starter.
The reality.
One reality maybe, we have a 2013 and 2017 here. The 2013 is at 49K miles and still has all 12 battery health bars (96% battery health in Leaf Spy). C&C taxis in Cornwall have one with 100K and still all 12 battery health bars.
A quote from C&C "It doesn't matter if it has 10% or 70% battery left if there's 10 minutes between jobs they'll jump on the Rapid charger. That car in the picture has had 1750 rapid charges and over 7000 level 2 charges." so it has not been treated in any special way.
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and the car you drop off is unusable for up to 8 hours whilst it recharges, and is cleaned of all the pi55 and puke stains the previous occupant left.
Well, even using the settled technology (which demonstrably isn't settled) tesla can already charge a car to 80% in 40mins and 100% in 75mins. Do you bother to research any of this, or just post the first number/"fact" that comes to mind? ::)
When I looked at the viability of an electric car, using leased batteries, you got properly buttraped for regular fast charging, as understandably, this knackers the packs.
Also, Tesla keep getting mentioned. Everyone I know with one is getting around 120m to a full charge... ...driven sedately :o. UK traffic hammers the range on these things.
We frequently get the EV manufacturers in at work, showing off their wares. Every single one of their salesmen, including Tesla when pushed, state their cars are not suitable for me.
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Nissan also had a serious kicking over battery health a few years ago and changed their warranties and some of the charging control systems and software to improve consumer confidence and battery health respectively.
Today's reality is that you can buy a brand new Hyundai Ioniq for under £25k with a good spec (heated seats, adaptive cruise, nav, dab etc). That comes with a 5yr unlimited mileage warranty (limited to 125k on the battery). Even if it went bang at 125,001 miles and you got no support from hyundai (unlikely) you will have saved £12,000 over a car that does 50mpg average. To spec a similar level and size of car (Insignia say) would take you comfortably up to £18-20k.
This is before you consider the savings on consumables (the 200k tesla mentioned above is still on its original discs and pads due to regenerative brakind) and servicing (Ioniq servicing is £99/£139 for the alternating minor and major services). Plus, of course diesels never kill clutches, dmfs or injectors, nope, never :P
TB: I'm by no means saying they suit everyone, but a fair percentage of the population *think* it wouldn't suit them, partly because of tired and inaccurate arguments that people copy and paste without being challenged.
The fast charging penalty on leased batteries is really odd and something i dont really understand, it does make it much less viable for a lot of people :/.
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Oooooo, Jimmy....I do like it when you're forceful :-*
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I currently have a car which uses no fossil fuel and costs even less than an electric car to fill up. It has a range of approx. 500 miles and cost me £350 four years ago.
Your all behind the curve in this. :)
When petrol / diesel cars are banned, expect huge tax rises in one area or another, as the amount of taxation lost to the treasury from petrol/ diesel sales would probably bankrupt the country if they didn't replace it with some other form of taxation.
I probably wont live to see the end of the internal combustion engine, but I feel sorry for future generations, that they wont have some of the experiences I had when I was young. Buying a powerful rwd drive car and learning to steer it on the throttle through a series of bends on country lanes.
If there is still such a thing left as young men in the future (doubtful, but that's a different argument), they will have a pitiful existence.
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Young men of the future won't have to find a quiet car park or gateway to get their leg over, they'll be doing it on the move in their electric driver-less cars! ;D
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Using gender labels such as "young men" will probably result in a spell in a state re - education facility by then. ;)
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Using gender labels such as "young men" will probably result in a spell in a state re - education facility by then. ;)
Just describing someone as young will probably be seen as offensive and discriminatory! ::)
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Oooooo, Jimmy....I do like it when you're forceful :-*
You know it sweetheart ;)
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Mind bleach to Gen Dis :o
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Hydrogen is the future. Electric cars have been around for a century or more.
I'm working on teleportation. :)
The problem with teleportation is - what happens if you have more than one receiver?
Can you imagine more than one copy of Lord Sittapong Meerkat?
SHUDDER! ::) :o and forget to turn the caps lock off when writing your name. ::) ::) ::)
rON.
fixed. ;D ;D ;D
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When a battery is dead, you recycle it, and make another. You argue that lithium is difficult to mine/obtain and then claim dead batteries which contain loads of it will be just thrown away?
But you don't get one new battery from every old one. You get perhaps 80-90% of a new battery and 10%+ waste that has to be got rid of. And you need to use energy and spend money to do the recycling. If it's cheaper to dig the Lithium out the ground and refine it than it is to recycle that is what will happen.
Bizarre. This is another false equivalence that people trot out when talking about electric cars. How do you equate digging up a material that can be used again and again to one which is dug up, burned and then takes millions of years to reform? It makes no sense.
Just because the current fossil fuel usage is unsustainable in the medium-long term doesn't mean that battery/electric cars are the correct solution. And using stuff again and again is spurious - you're just moving the point of consumption from the petrol/diesel in the engine to the gas/uranium in the power station.
Also the electrical generation argument is partially valid, but it makes the assumptions that a) we don't grow our use of renewables and b) that petrol is brought to the pumps by the petrol fairies. The co2 release and environmental impact of oil drilling and refining needs to be considered if you are going to consider the environmental impact of the source of the electricity generated. Otherwise the comparison is at best skewed or, more accurately invalid.
Environmental costs are impossible to measures in terms of money required to restore back to original. Once stuff is out of the ground it ain't going back in whether that is Oil or Lithium. Oli drilling/refining won't stop even if cars stop using petrol/diesel. Aircraft and ships will still use it, and plastics/synthetics will still be made from it. The choice is do we continue as we are, or do we stop. We aren't going to stop, so any alternative has to have similar or better attributes to what we already have, with no significant downside.
We know the actual cost of the petrol used in our cars at the moment - it's about £1.10 per litre round here. That includes all the costs of the petrol fairies, the extraction and refining costs, the profits for the petrol companies and the petrol stations. Not to mention the taxes - the RAC recon 65% of the cost we pay for petrol is tax - so the 'real' cost for petrol is around 72 p/L. A 60L/£70 fill up will get my omega about 400 miles if I'm careful, or 250 miles if I drive like a idiot. That works out at somewhere between 17p and 28p per mile cost to me, which would be 11p-18p per mile without the tax.
The Tessla blurb on Wikipedia states the batteries as in the region of 90-100KWh. In the UK leccie is around 12p per kWh (and there is virtually no tax on it). So assuming 100% charge efficiency (unlikely) it's going to cost £12 to fully charge a Tessla at home. For that I get a claimed 335 miles range, which makes it about 3.5p per mile. I'd guess the 335 mile range claim is about as accurate as other manufacturers MPG figures for petrol cars, and assumes I'm driving like Miss Daisy but lets run with it. If I drive my petrol car like miss daisy it'll cost me 17p per mile so the Tessla is almost 5 times cheaper to run.
Except. We need a network of leccie filling stations. The leccie fairies are basically already in place delivering electrons all around the country- AKA the National Grid - and that cost is included in the 12p per KW/h. What isn't included is the costs of setting up and running thousands of leccie filling stations, and the profits that such companies must make. Do you believe these companies are going to sell the leccie at cost, or is there going to be a mark-up? Shall we say 15p/Kwh? And what charging efficiency shall we say? 95%? And how much govt tax? 65% like on petrol? Add in all those factors and you could be looking at £45 to fill up your 100KHh battery to do 335 miles - 7.5p per mile. And if the 335 mile range is optomistic then all of a sudden it's 'only' half the price of petrol.
Not in the slightest. I don't believe most things politicos have to say. What I do firmly believe is that digging stuff up and setting fire to it is not a model which can continue indefinitely.
Indefinatley - No. For the foreseeable future - the next 50+ years. Yep.
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and the car you drop off is unusable for up to 8 hours whilst it recharges, and is cleaned of all the pi55 and puke stains the previous occupant left.
Well, even using the settled technology (which demonstrably isn't settled) tesla can already charge a car to 80% in 40mins and 100% in 75mins. Do you bother to research any of this, or just post the first number/"fact" that comes to mind? ::)
Tessla's home chargers are 20Kw/h, and the batteries are 100KWh. By my maths that's 5 hours if 100% charging efficiency. Realistically it's going to be at least 6 hours. Ok not 8 hours, but not 75 minuites either.
The times you quote are the SuperCharge figures - which we call "CrashCharging". If done regularly it will wreck the batteries much faster than the slow trickle charging.
In the scenarios we were discussing you either don't own the battery packs, or don't own the car. You effectively lease one or the other from someone and swap an empty one for a full one at some leccie station. Now you might be Ok with crash charging your own batteries - but the person that owns your leased car/batteries isn't going to like you reducing the life of their assets. They are either going to charge you a hell of a lot to allow crash charging, or not permit it full stop. If they don't allow it, then the car/battery pack is going to be unavailable for 5-6 hours.
80% of a full charge will get me how far? 80% of 335 miles is 270 miles - 4 hours at motorway speeds. Then I have to stop and either spend another 40minutes charging, or swap cars/battery packs again. There's either going to need to be dozens of batteries per car scattered all over the country, or millions of leccie charging points. You can fill a car, pay and be gone in 5 minutes at a petrol pump. A leccie pump in crash charge mode is going to take between 40 and 75 minutes? So each car is going to take 8 to 15 times longer to charge than a petrol car, and only go two thirds the distance? You're going to potentially need 20+ times the number of charging points as there are currently petrol pumps?
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Two things that are going to change the electric car market are:
1. At the moment about 25% of the battery space and capacity density is taken up in each cell by electronics which are used to control the battery charge/discharge rate to stop them catching on fire. Lithium fires are intense, nasty and very difficult to put out, ask Williams. There are already prototype next-gen batteries that have reduced this 25% by about 90%.
2. Two companies have claimed to have produced fast charge batteries using different technologies where 90% charge can be achieved in about 10 minutes.
Personally, I think viable electric cars are one to two model generations away (5 to 10 years) from being a competitive replacement to IC cars. The politicians, motor manufacturers and fleet owners will drive this including new entrants like Apple etc. So IMO 2040 is a realistic date to outlaw current IC vehicles.
With ever more green driven air pollution targets, even though they will make very little difference to life spans for the majority, they will be driven by the tree huggers and move pollution from high-density population centres to coal, wood and gas fired power stations in lower population areas. The UK has an advantage here where there is a big ocean to the west which is also the predominant wind direction (which is why a city's Eastend was always the cheap bit in Victorian times), so the acid rain, sulphur dioxide and PM2.5 etc., etc. pollution from the tall smokestack power station chimneys will mostly land in mainland Europe. ::) ::) ::) At the UK will no longer be under ECJ jurisdiction M'lud, where we aren't in the EU, this will not be our problem. ;D ;D ;D
I'm not sure this is enough R&D development momentum, drive for the infrastructure investment in a hydrogen network or that the EROEI will be favourable enough once the electricity has been generated compared with charging batteries.
The final point I will make where all new cars will be self-driving within 10 years so we all call and rent a vehicle as and when we need one, the change to electric cars will not be in our hands but in the large fleet owners. One thing that is going to characterise the 21st century is the change from owning things, like music, films, software and cars to leasing or renting them as and when we want to consume them.
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There are millions of petrol stations around... What's the difference? ::)
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So what is your solution to city and other place pollution which is killing people every day? Cant just keep filling the air with particulates from diesel and petrol vehicles surely.
You are still notthinking out of the box. Once the bulk of folk are using electric cars the rest can be taxed to death whilst the electric users pay the same as today approx. Why not have charging points everywhere. Work, street parking. If you want it to be accountable then pin number activates it.
Why not a car design with exchange batteries. Heavy /harsh users subsidised by others. Happens now in all walks of life and no one complains.
I bet when the railways had those refuelling stops, overhead hose refills and troughs for servicing cutting edge steam locos they couldnt have foreseen diesel or electric trains making those service stations redundant.
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Young men of the future won't have to find a quiet car park or gateway to get their leg over, they'll be doing it on the move in their electric driver-less cars! ;D
The future is already here. A US couple are suing Uber, where the driver stopped their lift to pick up a hooker who gave him a bj as he completed their journey. Only in America! :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D
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But you were talking about charging on the road, not at home. In which case you use the supercharger network (145kw) or rapid chargers (50-75kwh). Who cares if it takes 5hrs to charge at home, that's why you plug it in at night...
I don't know what "crashcharging" is and google only shows 4 results as one word, 2 for gaming/Halo and 2 relating to RC quadcopters, as two words you get lots of results but nothing on first two pages so can't really comment. However, assuming you mean it shortens battery life, the only cars that have been reported at high mileages seem to show 6-10% battery degredation at 150-200k miles. So it doesn't seem like the phenomenon you describe is happening in the real world. I made no reference to
Moving the point of the consumption is only spurious if you assume both power sources do the same level of environmental damage, which they do not. I made no reference to financial cost when discussing the environmental impact of both fuel sources, only that in making the comparison you referred to the environmental impact of mining lithium for batteries (effectively the car's "petrol tank") compared to mining oil (the fuel). This is not the right comparison. The correct comparison is the environmental impact of a new petrol car vs BEV equivalent (factoring in recyclability) and then the environmental impact of electricity generation and transmission vs environmental impact of drilling, refining and then burning the fuel.
Most proponents of fossil technology are not in favour of making this comparison - can't think why ::)
80% of a full charge will get me how far? 80% of 335 miles is 270 miles - 4 hours at motorway speeds. Then I have to stop and either spend another 40minutes charging, or swap cars/battery packs again.
For 90-95% of users this scenario either could not be less relevant or is relevant only once or twice a year. Take an extreme example. I want to drive from home (DY11) to Naples Italy. 1st full charge takes me to folkestone eurotunnel (225miles) which I need to arrive at least 30 mins beforehand, but in reality you would leave it 45mins plus. So you are back at 100% in Calais. Worst case scenario you have to charge in calais so "lose" 40mins. Second charge gets you to Metz (275miles), and you charge fully, 75mins. Then Lucern (245 miles), charge again 75mins, Modena (260miles), 75 mins then into Rome (250 miles). Maximum "wasted time" 265mins.
Compared to an omega (say 390 miles to the tank), your 1055 miles will be done in 2 stops. So 20 mins if you fill up at calais (using nil time). So, say 20 mins total assuming you pee and monster a sandwich. So the electric car takes 245 mins longer, but at 27mpg, the omega costs you £247 each way, compared to £65 at tesla's rates (assuming your car doesnt qualify for free supercharger use). So you are saving £44.50 per hour you wait. I don't know about you, but that is rather more than my hourly rate! Also bear in mind the above scenario massively favours the car. If you sleep enroute (and I probably would), your car can charge over night. I honestly wouldn't feel save to drive 1100 miles with 2 x 10 min breaks, so it really is in favour of the car.
My point with the above is that so many people have over-inflated expectations of what a car needs to achieve to meet their needs. I realise using a tesla as an example is unrealistic for most, but they have already moved the market on a huge amount in a matter of 3-5yrs that this kind of range (250-300 miles) will come along in the next 5yrs or so and it will be sufficient for 90% of users.
You can fill a car, pay and be gone in 5 minutes at a petrol pump. A leccie pump in crash charge mode is going to take between 40 and 75 minutes? So each car is going to take 8 to 15 times longer to charge than a petrol car, and only go two thirds the distance? You're going to potentially need 20+ times the number of charging points as there are currently petrol pumps?
I genuinely can't follow this, it seems to assume no-one charges at home and that currently fuel pumps are fully utilised? Why would you drive to an electric filling station? It makes no sense? There is already a company that's winning tenders in germany to fit charge points into lamp posts. So you just park up, in a bay on the street, swipe a contactless card and then plug in. That's the kind of solution we will actually see. Trying to bend electric cars to a petrol model makes no sense.
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and the car you drop off is unusable for up to 8 hours whilst it recharges, and is cleaned of all the pi55 and puke stains the previous occupant left.
Well, even using the settled technology (which demonstrably isn't settled) tesla can already charge a car to 80% in 40mins and 100% in 75mins. Do you bother to research any of this, or just post the first number/"fact" that comes to mind? ::)
Tessla's home chargers are 20Kw/h, and the batteries are 100KWh. By my maths that's 5 hours if 100% charging efficiency. Realistically it's going to be at least 6 hours. Ok not 8 hours, but not 75 minuites either.
Forgot to add - the 20Kwh home charger will have to be specifically wired into your house supply - and there is no guarantee that all manufacturers will use the same charging protocol/connector although you would hope that common sense would prevail. The most you can draw from a normal 13A plug in the wall is - err - 13A ::). That's about 3Kw, so it'll take 32 hours to fully charge your Tessla from a normal wall socket. 8 hours overnight is going to get you about one quarter charge, so enough for perhaps 80-90 miles. If you live more than 45 miles from your work, then either you're going to have to pay for a 20Kw installation, or your work is going to have to have charging points if they want you in on Fridays.
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'Normal' home chargers are 3.6 or 7 KW - ours 7 but our Leafs only have the 3.6 option onboard and never had a problem with them not being charged in the morning :y The Tesla unit can go upto 22kw but only if you want to invest a lot in your supply - normally set to 7KW.
We are also gradually installing more charging at work to support those who need a topup.
Steve
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Whilst you could charge a Tesla at 13 amps, why on earth would you ???
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/home-charging-installation
A little research goes a very long way :-X
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10-minute charging electric cars and local generation and saving of solar electricity at a local level are going to mean massive changes to the electricity grid of the future. The good news is that OFGEN and the grid company are well aware of how electricity generation and use is going to change and have a massive investment plan for this, which makes a change for the UK. :y :y :y
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10-minute charging electric cars and local generation and saving of solar electricity at a local level are going to mean massive changes to the electricity grid of the future. The good news is that OFGEN and the grid company are well aware of how electricity generation and use is going to change and have a massive investment plan for this, which makes a change for the UK. :y :y :y
Agreed! Whilst we are far from the cutting edge, it makes a change not to be a decade behing the game :y
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But you were talking about charging on the road, not at home. In which case you use the supercharger network (145kw) or rapid chargers (50-75kwh). Who cares if it takes 5hrs to charge at home, that's why you plug it in at night...
The section you quoted was in response to Entwoods suggestion that ended "you no longer "own" a vehicle .. you "rent" it for the duration you need it". The implication being that you are charging batteries/cars that someone else actually owns, or they are charging their own cars/batteries once you have finished renting them. Either way, they aren't going to do anything that reduces the life of their batteries. The batteries will be re-charged in the most cost efficient way which will mean slowly.
I don't know what "crashcharging" is and google only shows 4 results as one word, 2 for gaming/Halo and 2 relating to RC quadcopters, as two words you get lots of results but nothing on first two pages so can't really comment. However, assuming you mean it shortens battery life, the only cars that have been reported at high mileages seem to show 6-10% battery degredation at 150-200k miles. So it doesn't seem like the phenomenon you describe is happening in the real world. I made no reference to
Crashcharging is a phrase we use at work. It basically means charging batteries as fast as possible without them actually catching fire. I simply don't believe the Tessla figures - it simply doesn't stack up with typical Li battery usage. You may be able to achieve that in a lab test, but in the real world? Doubt it.
Moving the point of the consumption is only spurious if you assume both power sources do the same level of environmental damage, which they do not. I made no reference to financial cost when discussing the environmental impact of both fuel sources, only that in making the comparison you referred to the environmental impact of mining lithium for batteries (effectively the car's "petrol tank") compared to mining oil (the fuel). This is not the right comparison. The correct comparison is the environmental impact of a new petrol car vs BEV equivalent (factoring in recyclability) and then the environmental impact of electricity generation and transmission vs environmental impact of drilling, refining and then burning the fuel.
Most proponents of fossil technology are not in favour of making this comparison - can't think why ::)
That argument just ends up comparing apples with pears though. You either have millions of small sources of noxious fumes chucking particles into the city centres, or dozens of power stations chucking huge quantities of noxious fumes into the atmosphere and storing/burying radioactive waster somewhere for 10's of thousands of years. If you're going the consider the "environmental impact of drilling, refining and then burning the fuel" then you also have to consider the "environmental impact of drilling, refining and then burning the fuel" in the power statons - No?
80% of a full charge will get me how far? 80% of 335 miles is 270 miles - 4 hours at motorway speeds. Then I have to stop and either spend another 40minutes charging, or swap cars/battery packs again.
For 90-95% of users this scenario either could not be less relevant or is relevant only once or twice a year. Take an extreme example. I want to drive from home (DY11) to Naples Italy. 1st full charge takes me to folkestone eurotunnel (225miles) which I need to arrive at least 30 mins beforehand, but in reality you would leave it 45mins plus. So you are back at 100% in Calais. Worst case scenario you have to charge in calais so "lose" 40mins. Second charge gets you to Metz (275miles), and you charge fully, 75mins. Then Lucern (245 miles), charge again 75mins, Modena (260miles), 75 mins then into Rome (250 miles). Maximum "wasted time" 265mins.
Compared to an omega (say 390 miles to the tank), your 1055 miles will be done in 2 stops. So 20 mins if you fill up at calais (using nil time). So, say 20 mins total assuming you pee and monster a sandwich. So the electric car takes 245 mins longer, but at 27mpg, the omega costs you £247 each way, compared to £65 at tesla's rates (assuming your car doesnt qualify for free supercharger use). So you are saving £44.50 per hour you wait. I don't know about you, but that is rather more than my hourly rate! Also bear in mind the above scenario massively favours the car. If you sleep enroute (and I probably would), your car can charge over night. I honestly wouldn't feel save to drive 1100 miles with 2 x 10 min breaks, so it really is in favour of the car.
245 minutes is over 4 hours. An overnight kip (which I agree is sensible) en route saves the Tessla a 75 minute charge (providing the hotel has a charger) vs a 10 min break/fuel stop in the Omega bringing the time difference down to about 3 hours. I can spot a load of US military aircraft at Naples Airport and/or sink a lot of Barolo with my Pizza in Naples in 3 hours. My hourly rate is almost 10 times your £44.50 :o Truth be told I would fly that trip on Easyjet/Ryanair and expect to pay £100-£200 return and be there in 2 hours unless I had a load of kit to take with me.
But all the above relies on there being suitable Superchargers on the route you chose, and them not already being in use when you get there, and them not damaging the batteries long term.
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Continued due to 6000 character limit!
You can fill a car, pay and be gone in 5 minutes at a petrol pump. A leccie pump in crash charge mode is going to take between 40 and 75 minutes? So each car is going to take 8 to 15 times longer to charge than a petrol car, and only go two thirds the distance? You're going to potentially need 20+ times the number of charging points as there are currently petrol pumps?
I genuinely can't follow this, it seems to assume no-one charges at home and that currently fuel pumps are fully utilised? Why would you drive to an electric filling station? It makes no sense? There is already a company that's winning tenders in germany to fit charge points into lamp posts. So you just park up, in a bay on the street, swipe a contactless card and then plug in. That's the kind of solution we will actually see. Trying to bend electric cars to a petrol model makes no sense.
Any journey to a location more than 160 ish miles away is going to require that you re-charge at a leccie station somewhere en-route. Have you never pitched up at a petrol station to find all the pumps in use and had to wait a few minutes for one to become free? If the same happened with your Tessla then you potentially have to wait 40-75 minutes for someone to finish their charge, and then another 40-75 minutes to charge your car. And that's if they haven't pissed off for a meal whilst they wait for the charge to complete and return later. If you've got enough juice left to get to the next station you'd probably do that. Else you can't.
Petrol companies/Supermarkets build eneogh petrol pumps onto their forecourts such that they can serve most of the people most of the time. Sometimes you have to wait for a pump to become free, but more often you don't. What makes you think that the builders of leccie stations won't follow the same logic?
Charging points in lampposts/kerbside are never going to be Superchargers - no way are people going to pay for the infrastructure upgrades to allow 150Kw capabilities in very many installations. A typical street light is only 50-400 Watts and the current wiring will be to suit that. So plugging into a streetlight is going to take many hours to charge the car. Fine if you live there and can leave it plugged in overnight, but not much use for a traveller.
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Whilst you could charge a Tesla at 13 amps, why on earth would you ???
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/home-charging-installation
A little research goes a very long way :-X
You mean the bit where it says most homes are only on a single phase supply, so limited to 7.4Kw or 22 miles per hour on charge? A full charge is therefore going to take more than 14 hours?
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My hourly rate is almost 10 times your £44.50 :o Truth be told I would fly that trip on Easyjet/Ryanair and expect to pay £100-£200 return and be there in 2 hours unless I had a load of kit to take with me.
Really?! This discussion aside, that's £720k/yr after tax (£400/hr) assuming you work full time. Do you kick a leather thing about? Or are you white, male and salaried at the BBC?
Also, on that kind of money why would you drive a bloody omega?!! ;D
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My hourly rate is almost 10 times your £44.50 :o Truth be told I would fly that trip on Easyjet/Ryanair and expect to pay £100-£200 return and be there in 2 hours unless I had a load of kit to take with me.
Really?! This discussion aside, that's £720k/yr after tax (£400/hr) assuming you work full time. Do you kick a leather thing about? Or are you white, male and salaried at the BBC?
Also, on that kind of money why would you drive a bloody omega?!! ;D
That's the hourly rate charged by the company I work for for off site specialist engineering assistance in the military aerospace market. I don't see any of that money directly, which is one of the reasons I drive an Omega. The local Vaxuhall dealership charge circa £150 an hour for not fixing cars.
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10-minute charging electric cars and local generation and saving of solar electricity at a local level are going to mean massive changes to the electricity grid of the future. The good news is that OFGEN and the grid company are well aware of how electricity generation and use is going to change and have a massive investment plan for this, which makes a change for the UK. :y :y :y
I'm not sure what they're smoking at OFGEN but I want some. Ten minute charging of a mobile phone is one thing, but a 100Kwh car battery?
That's effectively a 600KWh capable supply. What would you suggest? 25KV cables supplying 25amps or 400V cables carrying 1500A?
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Whilst you could charge a Tesla at 13 amps, why on earth would you ???
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/home-charging-installation
A little research goes a very long way :-X
You mean the bit where it says most homes are only on a single phase supply, so limited to 7.4Kw or 22 miles per hour on charge? A full charge is therefore going to take more than 14 hours?
You, ie the consumer, has the free choice to have a three phase supply installed. Also, you presume that the car is always empty when you plug it in ::)
Believe it, or not, even a petrol powered car will accept a top up ;D
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Whilst you could charge a Tesla at 13 amps, why on earth would you ???
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/home-charging-installation
A little research goes a very long way :-X
You mean the bit where it says most homes are only on a single phase supply, so limited to 7.4Kw or 22 miles per hour on charge? A full charge is therefore going to take more than 14 hours?
8 hours to 11 hours if it's completely flat (depending on which model S) - I cant remember ever being at 0% when charging the Leafs at home. The one time I was close to that situation I popped a mile down the road and had a quick topup on the Rapid for 9p / kWh - job done.
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My hourly rate is almost 10 times your £44.50 :o Truth be told I would fly that trip on Easyjet/Ryanair and expect to pay £100-£200 return and be there in 2 hours unless I had a load of kit to take with me.
Really?! This discussion aside, that's £720k/yr after tax (£400/hr) assuming you work full time. Do you kick a leather thing about? Or are you white, male and salaried at the BBC?
Also, on that kind of money why would you drive a bloody omega?!! ;D
That's the hourly rate charged by the company I work for for off site specialist engineering assistance in the military aerospace market. I don't see any of that money directly, which is one of the reasons I drive an Omega. The local Vaxuhall dealership charge circa £150 an hour for not fixing cars.
Ah! Now that makes more sense. My charge out rate when I left practice was £340/hr. I received about £33k/yr of that (before the tax man had is go). I was thinking about "take home" pay as that's the equivalent to what I would have to spend on fuel in the above scenario.
Again I think 160 miles each way is more than enough for 90% of people 99% of the time. For me, the electric model doesn't fit around petrol infrastructure and it's pointless to try and make it do so. The point is that your car needs to be charging little and often, which is where those street lamps (or similar) come in. They're only 5kw rating, but by plugging in when your car is parked up (as the majority of cars are the majority of the time), it doesn't need to be fast charging.
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You mean the bit where it says most homes are only on a single phase supply, so limited to 7.4Kw or 22 miles per hour on charge? A full charge is therefore going to take more than 14 hours?
8 hours to 11 hours if it's completely flat (depending on which model S) - I cant remember ever being at 0% when charging the Leafs at home. The one time I was close to that situation I popped a mile down the road and had a quick topup on the Rapid for 9p / kWh - job done.
The Leaf has a claimed range of 107 miles on a 30KWh battery. If it's fully flat, and you charge it from a 3.6KW home charger, it's going to take at least 8.3 hours.
The Model S currently has 75kWh and 100kWh options, which have claimed ranges of 250 and 390 miles respectively. If it's fully flat, and you charge it from a 7.2kWh home charger, it's going to take at least 10.2 hours and 13.9 hours respectively.
If you never drive more than 107/250/390 miles a day then it's not a problem - I've always accepted that. So it can work if you don't commute more than 53/125/195 miles to work each day. Any journey to a point more than that is going to need recharging somewhere en-route.
Tessla seem to offer 400KW per year "free" supercharging - which is 10 half charges or 5 full charges on the 75kWh car or 8/4 on the 100kWh car. After that it's 20p per Kw/h for Supercharging. They appear to be claiming that the overall petrol costs work out to be about 2.7 times the electric costs - and remember that's whilst the govt aren't taxing the hell out of electricity like they are for petrol. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger.
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Just throwing this out there..... I can forget to tank up with diesel on the way home. But it's not a problem, as even with fuel light on I can nip to Sainsbury's and tank up with £65 of canal boat fuel in the morning on the way to work. Instant 700 mile range :y
What happens when you forget to plug your car in one night, like a mobile phone it's easy to forget now and then ::)
You will be a bit stuffed in the morning ;D
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Giant version of one of those power-bricks for phones? ;D
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Just throwing this out there..... I can forget to tank up with diesel on the way home. But it's not a problem, as even with fuel light on I can nip to Sainsbury's and tank up with £65 of canal boat fuel in the morning on the way to work. Instant 700 mile range :y
What happens when you forget to plug your car in one night, like a mobile phone it's easy to forget now and then ::)
You will be a bit stuffed in the morning ;D
Tesla and ioniq both bong at you based on your expected activity (the sat nav stores your commute and checks it against your available range when you switch off). But yes, you are buggered if you ignore that lol.
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Honda gennie in the boot and drive to work slowly with the tailgate open? ;D
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Just throwing this out there..... I can forget to tank up with diesel on the way home. But it's not a problem, as even with fuel light on I can nip to Sainsbury's and tank up with £65 of canal boat fuel in the morning on the way to work. Instant 700 mile range :y
What happens when you forget to plug your car in one night, like a mobile phone it's easy to forget now and then ::)
You will be a bit stuffed in the morning ;D
Tesla and ioniq both bong at you based on your expected activity (the sat nav stores your commute and checks it against your available range when you switch off). But yes, you are buggered if you ignore that lol.
I'm thinking I get home, know it needs to charge but I just need to nip inside as I'm bursting for the toilet/hungry/need a drink/running late for dinner....
You go to bed, then wake up thinking sh!t forgot to plug the car in and I forgot to put the bins out as well. ;D
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... then comes the call you need to make.
- Morning Boss, I won't be coming in today.
- Why?
- Forgot to charge my car
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Lets look at something else. https://www.licencebureau.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/road-use-statistics.pdf
Page 8 says cars accounted for 244.4 billion vehicle miles in 2014. That's 670 million per day, or almost 28 million per hour (on average).
The Leaf and Tessla battery/range figures indicate you can expect to get about 3 miles per kWh of battery charge
This means that if/once all cars were electric/battery, the grid would have to supply an average of an extra 9.3 Million kW every hour. The difference between night time and daytime energy generation in the UK is currently about 10GW, but if you restrict charging to between 8pm and 8am then you're going to need to generate an extra 18.6 GW during that time. So you still have to find 8.6GW of extra capacity from somewhere.
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
Basically 3 extra Hinkley point C's coming online from 2040 onwards will do it. Is the planning permission in place yet? ::)
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Basically 3 extra Hinkley point C's coming online from 2040 onwards will do it. Is the planning permission in place yet? ::)
Yep, off we go cap in had to the French and the Chinese again...
..and then there's the supply network needed to support it - right down to the local distribution level which relies on diversity and is not designed to support every property in a street taking many kilowatts of power out of the gird for hours on end.
We will need a smart mechanism at a local level to coordinate whose car takes charge when and hope that the basic network has the capacity to satisfy all users. If that doesn't work it's a simple matter of digging up every road in the country to upgrade the infrastructure. ;D
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Basically 3 extra Hinkley point C's coming online from 2040 onwards will do it. Is the planning permission in place yet? ::)
Yep, off we go cap in had to the French and the Chinese again...
..and then there's the supply network needed to support it - right down to the local distribution level which relies on diversity and is not designed to support every property in a street taking many kilowatts of power out of the gird for hours on end.
We will need a smart mechanism at a local level to coordinate whose car takes charge when and hope that the basic network has the capacity to satisfy all users. If that doesn't work it's a simple matter of digging up every road in the country to upgrade the infrastructure. ;D
Defeatist ;D
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I'm afraid the solution is obvious..
By then the Goverment will tell you when, where and how much you can drive. Not the other way around.
If you do a job essential to the people, you'll be allowed to commute. If you do a job essential to the economy, you'll be allowed to commute.
If you're old, drugs will be provided to ensure a swift end, you will be recycled into Soylent Green.
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... then comes the call you need to make.
- Morning Boss, I won't be coming in today.
- Why?
- Forgot to charge my car
;D ;D ;D ;D
This equates to " the dog ate my homework, Sir" when I was at school. :D
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This equates to " the dog ate my homework, Sir" when I was at school. :D
I don't think employers are allowed to employ the cane, though ;D
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All minor issues. Apart from a war this is the next best thing to boost GDP.
Spot on aaron. The days of just jumping in your car are numbered.
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All these electric cars lined up on the street for a quick charge. Such temptation.
I wonder how many small boys will find it amusing to pull the plug out as soon as the owner has walked away? ::)
I certainly would have done. :D
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All these electric cars lined up on the street for a quick charge. Such temptation.
I wonder how many small boys will find it amusing to pull the plug out as soon as the owner has walked away? ::)
I certainly would have done. :D
Or just wiggle it out ever-so slightly, so it looks in but not actually charging ;D
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All these electric cars lined up on the street for a quick charge. Such temptation.
I wonder how many small boys will find it amusing to pull the plug out as soon as the owner has walked away? ::)
I certainly would have done. :D
You fiend! ;D
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Basically 3 extra Hinkley point C's coming online from 2040 onwards will do it. Is the planning permission in place yet? ::)
Yep, off we go cap in had to the French and the Chinese again...
..and then there's the supply network needed to support it - right down to the local distribution level which relies on diversity and is not designed to support every property in a street taking many kilowatts of power out of the gird for hours on end.
We will need a smart mechanism at a local level to coordinate whose car takes charge when and hope that the basic network has the capacity to satisfy all users. If that doesn't work it's a simple matter of digging up every road in the country to upgrade the infrastructure. ;D
You want to see some of the confidential research we have going on at the moment.
It ranges from smart everything where the grid can back off the wattage of your kettle and shut down your freezer to, high power induction loops at traffic lights to give your car a boost of power (and no doubt fry any local hedgehog or cat who gets a bit close) whilst you wait.....with the talk of extending the red time for 10s of seconds based on charging needs!
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It ranges from smart everything where the grid can back off the wattage of your kettle and shut down your freezer
Given there are indicators that parts of the control systems for our power distribution network have already been compromised by likely state actors, I can only imagine this ending wonderfully!
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Good excuse to go off grid... Drinking water can be delivered as can generator fuel... Throw in a wind turbine (which can simultaneously pump water and produce electricity), along with some solar panels (which can heat your water and produce electricity), and before you know it, you don't need to rely on the state for your energy needs...
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Good excuse to go off grid... Drinking water can be delivered as can generator fuel... Throw in a wind turbine (which can simultaneously pump water and produce electricity), along with some solar panels (which can heat your water and produce electricity), and before you know it, you don't need to rely on the state for your energy needs...
Your going to be living a long way from anybody else then! (they don't work in built up areas due to turbulence from housing roof structures and surrounding builds)
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Good excuse to go off grid... Drinking water can be delivered as can generator fuel... Throw in a wind turbine (which can simultaneously pump water and produce electricity), along with some solar panels (which can heat your water and produce electricity), and before you know it, you don't need to rely on the state for your energy needs...
Your going to be living a long way from anybody else then! (they don't work in built up areas due to turbulence from housing roof structures and surrounding builds)
That's not what the salesman who sold us our roof mounted windmill said. He said that we would generate enough to keep the whole street going, and he only charged us £18,000. I tried ringing him after installation to confirm, but he seems to be unavailable. :-\
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The alternative is to bury an RB 211 in the garden :D
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Just throwing this out there..... I can forget to tank up with diesel on the way home. But it's not a problem, as even with fuel light on I can nip to Sainsbury's and tank up with £65 of canal boat fuel in the morning on the way to work. Instant 700 mile range :y
What happens when you forget to plug your car in one night, like a mobile phone it's easy to forget now and then ::)
You will be a bit stuffed in the morning ;D
That's never happened to us :-X :-X :-X
At least 90% of the miles the car does is local so as long as its plugged in for about an hr it will give us enough range to do the school run - most of the time!
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The alternative is to bury an RB 211 in the garden :D
Could be useful for cooking with to!
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Indeed enough heat and wind to actually supply the street... :D
Noise, what noise? I can't hear anything :-X
And the best bit... Jet A1 is half the price of red diesel 8)
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Indeed enough heat and wind to actually supply the street... :D
Noise, what noise? I can't hear anything :-X
And the best bit... Jet A1 is half the price of red diesel 8)
Can you not sneak a few flasks full out after every shift :y
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Indeed enough heat and wind to actually supply the street... :D
Noise, what noise? I can't hear anything :-X
And the best bit... Jet A1 is half the price of red diesel 8)
Can you not sneak a few flasks full out after every shift :y
Well... we do use a couple of those water cooler bottles each shift... ::)
Not sure a 60 litre tank would last very long though :-\
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Just throwing this out there..... I can forget to tank up with diesel on the way home. But it's not a problem, as even with fuel light on I can nip to Sainsbury's and tank up with £65 of canal boat fuel in the morning on the way to work. Instant 700 mile range :y
What happens when you forget to plug your car in one night, like a mobile phone it's easy to forget now and then ::)
You will be a bit stuffed in the morning ;D
If you need 700 miles range an electric car is not going to work for you.
If I forget to plug is in it will tell me so on my phone and if I ignore than I will pop to a Rapid in the morning.
It does require a little more thinking sometimes but that fine for me.
Steve
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All these electric cars lined up on the street for a quick charge. Such temptation.
I wonder how many small boys will find it amusing to pull the plug out as soon as the owner has walked away? ::)
I certainly would have done. :D
Unless you break into the car you can't as it will be locked in.....
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Indeed enough heat and wind to actually supply the street... :D
Noise, what noise? I can't hear anything :-X
And the best bit... Jet A1 is half the price of red diesel 8)
Can you not sneak a few flasks full out after every shift :y
A mate of mine used to have a deal with the Police helicopter pilots. He used to provide a "disposal service" for the A1 samples they were required to collect before each shift. Seems they took about a jerry can's worth each time. He'd mix it with veggie oil and run his Vectra B on it. ;D
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All these electric cars lined up on the street for a quick charge. Such temptation.
I wonder how many small boys will find it amusing to pull the plug out as soon as the owner has walked away? ::)
I certainly would have done. :D
Unless you break into the car you can't as it will be locked in.....
they could cut it with a knife :o :D :o
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All these electric cars lined up on the street for a quick charge. Such temptation.
I wonder how many small boys will find it amusing to pull the plug out as soon as the owner has walked away? ::)
I certainly would have done. :D
Unless you break into the car you can't as it will be locked in.....
they could cut it with a knife :o :D :o
There should be quite a bit of copper in a fast charge cable.. worth it for the pikeys to come along with some insulated bolt croppers and nick 'em all, I bet. I mean, if they're happy dicing with whatever voltages are in substations and train tracks, a little 3ph shouldn't scare them off ;D
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I bet you wouldn't half get a crack off a 50kw fast charge cable! ;D
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I bet you wouldn't half get a crack off a 50kw fast charge cable! ;D
400V DC, rather them than me!
The type 2 240 AV cables could be easily cut though I would think - RCD would save them.
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https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/hybrids-exempt-britains-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban
Fear not. Hybrids will still be allowed after 2040..
Not that I like hybrids, but they still require proper fuel as well so at least that won't disappear!
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This thread has the potential to beat that tyre thread plus it has 23 years left to run.
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I wonder what Webby's 0-60 would be in an electric car? :-\ :D ;D
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I wonder what Webby's 0-60 would be in an electric car? :-\ :D ;D
Faster. Unless it took more than 0.34917492 miles, in which case the range anxiety would knock about 3 days off the time ;D
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STEMO is still pondering on how can he connect a 12kw electric car supercharger where he uses his Scouser jump leads clipped to the Street's overhead cables for his domestic power requirements. ::) ::) ::) Wait for the OOF thread: I've bought a second set of jump leads how do I connect them to the two unused overhead cables for a 3-phase supply. :o :o :o :P :P :P
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40762328
:)