Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Sir Tigger KC on 24 January 2018, 10:29:43
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This has raised it's ugly head again in the news today with a pressure group urging the government to look again at introducing road charges as well as/ instead of VED. ::)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42792813
Over to you Ron! :)
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While we wait for Ron
It is inevitable and will be easy to implement methinks. Talking about the use of limited resources it is also inevitable that "cooking " food from raw ingredients will also disappear. People will go to a machine and get "energy bars" dispensed according to how much they have contributed. In a way people are already heading that way without knowing by buying microwave meals.Imagine if when you got to the checkout you had your nice Chicken Jalfrezi substituted for macaroni cheese as you hadn't contributed enough to society that day.
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Thank you for bringing that to my attention, your Sirship; it is not the answer.
As I have already stated at boring length, we have already paid massively in our taxes, so there is no shortage of money - there is sufficient to concrete over the whole of the UK to a high standard.
The danger here is that the government - ANY government - will adopt road pricing in a heartbeat, will will "forget" to remove/lower any other motoring taxes.
I am encouraged by the part that advocates lower costs for poor people - free motoring for Ron!!! :y :y :y 8)
Ron.
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
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I must get arouind to building my 1952 Sunbeam S8 - no road tax or MOT required! I suppose I will need to have a little insurance?
Ron.
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
I guess that might work for leisure drivers, but people who have to use their cars to get to work, and don’t clog up the motorways doing it, would be really peed off. Also, no mention of how the new tax would affect business drivers. If white van man had to pay through the pumps, everything would go up in price.......and I mean everything.
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I must get arouind to building my 1952 Sunbeam S8 - no road tax or MOT required! I suppose I will need to have a little insurance?
Ron.
Wifey’s captur is zero tax.
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
I guess that might work for leisure drivers, but people who have to use their cars to get to work, and don’t clog up the motorways doing it, would be really peed off. Also, no mention of how the new tax would affect business drivers. If white van man had to pay through the pumps, everything would go up in price.......and I mean everything.
..surely people who have to use their cars to get to work, do exactly that - clog up the motorways! One of my jobs is driving for a living, I spend a fair amount of time on the road & I still think it's the fairest way, white van man included. My elderly mum used do to about 10 miles a week to the shops..it's unfair for her to pay the same amount a sales rep in the same car doing 500 plus, not reasonable?
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Several lifetimes ago, I had to use my own car on business, and had my petrol paid for; how I wished that the car tax had been on petrol instead!
Ron.
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Quite.. :y
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There is no Utopian solution.
But tax on fuel seems a pretty good compromise. :y
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Quadruple fuel tax for derv users though. :)
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
I guess that might work for leisure drivers, but people who have to use their cars to get to work, and don’t clog up the motorways doing it, would be really peed off. Also, no mention of how the new tax would affect business drivers. If white van man had to pay through the pumps, everything would go up in price.......and I mean everything.
..surely people who have to use their cars to get to work, do exactly that - clog up the motorways! One of my jobs is driving for a living, I spend a fair amount of time on the road & I still think it's the fairest way, white van man included. My elderly mum used do to about 10 miles a week to the shops..it's unfair for her to pay the same amount a sales rep in the same car doing 500 plus, not reasonable?
My wife does a 50 mile round trip, and doesn’t go near a motorway. This is exactly my point, she would just be lumped in with everyone else. And I think you’ll find the proposed rules take into account mileage and roads used, plus time of day.
Of course, this is all pie in the sky at the moment, because every road would need cameras to enforce the rules.
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
I have supported that view for many years, especially when driving company cars many hundreds of miles a week, or over 100k miles in a year.
However, in 2017 we must review that opinion, as with a growing number of electric / hybrid cars on the road, the opportunities for the government of the day to generate tax via a usage petrol/diesel charge is naturally going to decline. For the next five years perhaps tax paid on fuel instead of VED is still a valid cause, but after that I don't think so. Over the next five years the answer is to implement road charging via ANPR systems, or by other means. Toll booths are so out of date, so electronic systems will be required, but with some form of security to avoid criminals using your number plate, cloned, such as a "fingerprint" / chip built into the genuine plate. ;)
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I think the last time I read about this the government had spent £17,000,000 on a feasibility study, so what's a few more million matter.. Motorists the easy target for these bunch of tossers in power.
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Changing how we pay the tax to use roads is trying to bandage the symptom.
No politician is going to admit to the real problem: current transport usage isn't sustainable, and we all need to reduce it. That requires a social change, and governments trying to force those never ends well.
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I must get arouind to building my 1952 Sunbeam S8 - no road tax or MOT required! I suppose I will need to have a little insurance?
Ron.
Wifey’s captur is zero tax.
My shag is only 20 quid
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Electric is the future, it's a no brainer - the fuel volumes are decreasing & electric vehicle numbers will continue to increase.
Adding to the fuel duty can be transferred to electric when the volumes are right - whatever source is used, paying on the basis of how much use something is fair. :)
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Electric is the future, it's a no brainer - the fuel volumes are decreasing & electric vehicle numbers will continue to increase.
Adding to the fuel duty can be transferred to electric when the volumes are right - whatever source is used, paying on the basis of how much use something is fair. :)
.. right up until we run out of electricity supply, which won't take very long.
If electric cars are the future, NickW's social change will have to happen, and in spades!
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[/quote]
My shag is only 20 quid
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What's that for, short time behind King's Cross station? ;D :y
Ron.
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.. right up until we run out of electricity supply, which won't take very long.
If electric cars are the future, NickW's social change will have to happen, and in spades!
This ^^^^
We have spare electricity generating capacity to charge enough cars to do about one-third of the number of miles that UK car owners currently drive annually. So we either need to build another 3-5 Hinkley Point sized power stations (in addition to those already in existence or planned), or cut the number of miles we drive by 50%-70%.
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
I have supported that view for many years, especially when driving company cars many hundreds of miles a week, or over 100k miles in a year.
However, in 2017 we must review that opinion, as with a growing number of electric / hybrid cars on the road, the opportunities for the government of the day to generate tax via a usage petrol/diesel charge is naturally going to decline. For the next five years perhaps tax paid on fuel instead of VED is still a valid cause, but after that I don't think so. Over the next five years the answer is to implement road charging via ANPR systems, or by other means. Toll booths are so out of date, so electronic systems will be required, but with some form of security to avoid criminals using your number plate, cloned, such as a "fingerprint" / chip built into the genuine plate. ;)
Seeing the number of vehicles around these days with filthy unreadable licence plates, would ANPR be able to read them? :-\
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Having an obscured number plate is an offence and an MOT failure, otherwise I would keep mine in a very dirty state. :-X
Ron.
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Having an obscured number plate is an offence and an MOT failure, otherwise I would keep mine in a very dirty state. :-X
Ron.
Yes Ron, it is, but you still see quite a few around here with obliterated number plates. Especially on our scabby country roads.
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
I guess that might work for leisure drivers, but people who have to use their cars to get to work, and don’t clog up the motorways doing it, would be really peed off. Also, no mention of how the new tax would affect business drivers. If white van man had to pay through the pumps, everything would go up in price.......and I mean everything.
..surely people who have to use their cars to get to work, do exactly that - clog up the motorways! One of my jobs is driving for a living, I spend a fair amount of time on the road & I still think it's the fairest way, white van man included. My elderly mum used do to about 10 miles a week to the shops..it's unfair for her to pay the same amount a sales rep in the same car doing 500 plus, not reasonable?
My wife does a 50 mile round trip, and doesn’t go near a motorway. This is exactly my point, she would just be lumped in with everyone else. And I think you’ll find the proposed rules take into account mileage and roads used, plus time of day.
Of course, this is all pie in the sky at the moment, because every road would need cameras to enforce the rules.
But you arent doing blue sky thinking. Each car factory fitted with a smart box that knows where you are, how fast you are going and how hard you brake etc. Then auto debits from the owners bank account. Nice self contained island(s) of operation. That will of course be the next criminal area of activity. Hacked boxes that debit STEMO's fat bank account with you trying to prove you didn't drive at that time ;D Might also be a market in foreign LHD vehicles but the answer to that would be a temp box with very hefty deposit at point of UK entry. Legacy bangers not able to be retrofitted with smart box just taxed at say £1000 a year to encourage them off the roads.
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What an Orwellian scenario!
As with so many things relating to motoring law, the usual presumption of innocent until proven guilty has been turned on its head: we now have to move heaven and earth to clear ourselves of unjust accusations.
Even the DVLA make you pay for their mistakes/inefficiency at £80 per whack! >:( >:( >:(
Ron.
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
I guess that might work for leisure drivers, but people who have to use their cars to get to work, and don’t clog up the motorways doing it, would be really peed off. Also, no mention of how the new tax would affect business drivers. If white van man had to pay through the pumps, everything would go up in price.......and I mean everything.
..surely people who have to use their cars to get to work, do exactly that - clog up the motorways! One of my jobs is driving for a living, I spend a fair amount of time on the road & I still think it's the fairest way, white van man included. My elderly mum used do to about 10 miles a week to the shops..it's unfair for her to pay the same amount a sales rep in the same car doing 500 plus, not reasonable?
My wife does a 50 mile round trip, and doesn’t go near a motorway. This is exactly my point, she would just be lumped in with everyone else. And I think you’ll find the proposed rules take into account mileage and roads used, plus time of day.
Of course, this is all pie in the sky at the moment, because every road would need cameras to enforce the rules.
But you arent doing blue sky thinking. Each car factory fitted with a smart box that knows where you are, how fast you are going and how hard you brake etc. Then auto debits from the owners bank account. Nice self contained island(s) of operation. That will of course be the next criminal area of activity. Hacked boxes that debit STEMO's fat bank account with you trying to prove you didn't drive at that time ;D Might also be a market in foreign LHD vehicles but the answer to that would be a temp box with very hefty deposit at point of UK entry. Legacy bangers not able to be retrofitted with smart box just taxed at say £1000 a year to encourage them off the roads.
It’s the future, Varche, and you know it.
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What an Orwellian scenario!
As with so many things relating to motoring law, the usual presumption of innocent until proven guilty has been turned on its head: we now have to move heaven and earth to clear ourselves of unjust accusations.
Even the DVLA make you pay for their mistakes/inefficiency at £80 per whack! >:( >:( >:(
Ron.
Easy life. Try living in a European country. Traffic misdemeanour? You might be lucky and get a letter but otherwise it just sits there on file amassing more penalty. You can and should look using your "digital signature" periodically so you can pay them.
It might be funny thinking it is Orwellian but simply facts point to this being the way. More people and not bothering to create more land or limit the population, no joined up public transport plan. Here is another Orwellian suggestion. Pay people a bonus annually for not having a car. Pay people a bonus for having a job near their home.
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I must get arouind to building my 1952 Sunbeam S8 - no road tax or MOT required! I suppose I will need to have a little insurance?
Ron.
Wifey’s captur is zero tax.
My shag is only 20 quid
I knew a girl like that once :-X,Oh you mean the Jaggggg :D ::)
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Petrol and diesel are not the only fuels ::)
Electricity is self taxing... if you charge your electric car every day, you're clearly going to use more than Nana living alone...
Likewise gas ;)
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I must get arouind to building my 1952 Sunbeam S8 - no road tax or MOT required! I suppose I will need to have a little insurance?
Ron.
Wifey’s captur is zero tax.
My shag is only 20 quid
I knew a girl like that once :-X ,Oh you mean the Jaggggg :D ::)
Once? For £20? You expect us to believe that? ::)
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Petrol and diesel are not the only fuels ::)
Electricity is self taxing... if you charge your electric car every day, you're clearly going to use more than Nana living alone...
Likewise gas ;)
There was an almighty fuss when the chancellor put 5% VAT tax on domestic fuel bills. How is he going to put a 70% tax on electricity used to charge cars without causing pensioners to riot in the street? Or has someone invented Red Leccie (like Red Diesel) whilst I wasn't watching?
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Petrol and diesel are not the only fuels ::)
Electricity is self taxing... if you charge your electric car every day, you're clearly going to use more than Nana living alone...
Likewise gas ;)
There was an almighty fuss when the chancellor put 5% VAT tax on domestic fuel bills. How is he going to put a 70% tax on electricity used to charge cars without causing pensioners to riot in the street? Or has someone invented Red Leccie (like Red Diesel) whilst I wasn't watching?
Separate meter for car charging points? or maybe future smart meters will be able to tell when a car is being charged by the amount of current drawn or if it's going through the car charging point. :-\
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Petrol and diesel are not the only fuels ::)
Electricity is self taxing... if you charge your electric car every day, you're clearly going to use more than Nana living alone...
Likewise gas ;)
There was an almighty fuss when the chancellor put 5% VAT tax on domestic fuel bills. How is he going to put a 70% tax on electricity used to charge cars without causing pensioners to riot in the street? Or has someone invented Red Leccie (like Red Diesel) whilst I wasn't watching?
Separate meter for car charging points? or maybe future smart meters will be able to tell when a car is being charged by the amount of current drawn or if it's going through the car charging point. :-\
So now you're going to mandate that all houses have to be rewired before you can use/charge a car? And every house with road access needs rewiring by 2040 (the government target for Electric only cars)? And presumably you'll make it illegal to charge a car from a standard household 13 amp socket - such as those found in many household garages?
Sorry Tig, that's got as much chance of working as prohibition in the 'states did. Smart meters aren't compulsory, and even if they were it'll be impossible to distinguish the load between a car charging overnight and something like economy7 heating.
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Petrol and diesel are not the only fuels ::)
Electricity is self taxing... if you charge your electric car every day, you're clearly going to use more than Nana living alone...
Likewise gas ;)
There was an almighty fuss when the chancellor put 5% VAT tax on domestic fuel bills. How is he going to put a 70% tax on electricity used to charge cars without causing pensioners to riot in the street? Or has someone invented Red Leccie (like Red Diesel) whilst I wasn't watching?
Separate meter for car charging points? or maybe future smart meters will be able to tell when a car is being charged by the amount of current drawn or if it's going through the car charging point. :-\
So now you're going to mandate that all houses have to be rewired before you can use/charge a car? And every house with road access needs rewiring by 2040 (the government target for Electric only cars)? And presumably you'll make it illegal to charge a car from a standard household 13 amp socket - such as those found in many household garages?
Sorry Tig, that's got as much chance of working as prohibition in the 'states did. Smart meters aren't compulsory, and even if they were it'll be impossible to distinguish the load between a car charging overnight and something like economy7 heating.
Quite. And, of course, dedicated street chargers for houses with no off street parking, all with different shaped connectors so your neighbours can’t steal your electricity. ;D
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The well known view, still stands: scrap the VED, add duty to the fuel so it is relative to how much driving you do :y
i would go for that :y
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Smart meters will become compulsory and we'll all have to have them at some point. ::)
But when I said a smart meter being able to tell whether a car was being charged I meant a future generation of smart meter, and yes I believe it would be very do-able! :y
Anyway who said anything about rewiring houses? :-\ I certainly didn't! ::) But it wouldn't be much work to have a spur from the main to a dedicated car charging point with it's own meter. ;)
They will have to work out some way of generating revenue from electric cars.... ::)
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All this talk of electric cars , I know it's the future but what a shame my grandkids will probably never get the thrill of driving a thundering V8, glad I realised my ambition of owning one ( now two) I realise that the Tesla is fast but just doesn't hit the spot for me.
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All this talk of electric cars , I know it's the future but what a shame my grandkids will probably never get the thrill of driving a thundering V8, glad I realised my ambition of owning one ( now two) I realise that the Tesla is fast but just doesn't hit the spot for me.
If they are lucky they might get the thrill of driving a car... any car, as with the advent of driverless vehicles I doubt your great-grandkids will get that pleasure. :(
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All this talk of electric cars , I know it's the future but what a shame my grandkids will probably never get the thrill of driving a thundering V8, glad I realised my ambition of owning one ( now two) I realise that the Tesla is fast but just doesn't hit the spot for me.
The way the world is going, your grandkids will be missing out on more than that. “Nice tits, love” will get you 12 months in jail and not recycling your waste will be the death penalty.
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All this talk of electric cars , I know it's the future but what a shame my grandkids will probably never get the thrill of driving a thundering V8, glad I realised my ambition of owning one ( now two) I realise that the Tesla is fast but just doesn't hit the spot for me.
I am sure there will be track days for V8 cars. Same as people can go and ride a penny farthing andso on. Times move on but nostalga will always have a place
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All this talk of electric cars , I know it's the future but what a shame my grandkids will probably never get the thrill of driving a thundering V8, glad I realised my ambition of owning one ( now two) I realise that the Tesla is fast but just doesn't hit the spot for me.
The way the world is going, your grandkids will be missing out on more than that. “Nice tits, love” will get you 12 months in jail and not recycling your waste will be the death penalty.
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Stemo please don't get me started on inappropriate comments , after years in the services if it wasn't for banter I think I would top myself 😀
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All this talk of electric cars , I know it's the future but what a shame my grandkids will probably never get the thrill of driving a thundering V8, glad I realised my ambition of owning one ( now two) I realise that the Tesla is fast but just doesn't hit the spot for me.
I am sure there will be track days for V8 cars. Same as people can go and ride a penny farthing andso on. Times move on but nostalga will always have a place
You could drive 340 cars from London to Edinburgh for the same amount of CO2 as one plane journey. Just saying.
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Don't worry President TB's Transport Minister Ron will fix it. ::) ::) ::)
Everybody will be chipped like a pet and it will be compulsory to take your mobile with you whenever you leave your house and garden. Forget your phone and the equivalent of each APNR point will automatically ticket you for a £100 fine. Once you've left your designated property you will be charged for land, pavement and road usage between 10p and £10 a mile depending on how greedy the government is feeling that week busy the fields, roads and pavements are. :o :o :o
Anybody that has any reasonable cause to know where you have been on any day will be able to pay the DVLA £10 for 24 hours of data on your travels. :o :o :o To maximise the DVLA's income, trade prices will be available to registered PIs, un-trusting friends or family, nosy-parkers, thieves and stalkers. :o :o :o This should have George Orwell spinning in his grave. :D :D :D
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Thanks, Rods2, I'll start working on my agenda in the morning. Expect radical changes.
Do we really need speed limits?.....
Ron.
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Smart meters will become compulsory and we'll all have to have them at some point. ::)
Well in this household you're either going to have to run a phone line to any forcibly installed smart meter, or you're going to have to find a way to defeat the farriday cage which I'll build around the newly installed meter.
But when I said a smart meter being able to tell whether a car was being charged I meant a future generation of smart meter, and yes I believe it would be very do-able! :y
How exactly?
Anyway who said anything about rewiring houses? :-\ I certainly didn't! ::) But it wouldn't be much work to have a spur from the main to a dedicated car charging point with it's own meter. ;)
How do you expect to extract several tens of kW out of your existing household supply without rewiring? Very few houses or domestic premises are connected to a three phase supply. Most domestic premises are single phase and fused at 60-80A, so that's about 15-20kW tops. The highest consumption device in a house is often the cooker - typically fused at 30-45A so 7.5-10kW. A 13A plug on a ring main will supply at most 3kW. Current Tesla batteries are 75-100kW. You think you're going to be able to take that amount of power from your domestic supply without some rewiring?
They will have to work out some way of generating revenue from electric cars.... ::)
Yes, but people don't use Petrol/Diesel for much else but cars, so it's easy to tax them at the point of sale - the petrol station. Trying to tax electricity when used for cars alone will be a nightmare. 70% of the cost of petrol is tax/duty. Currently electricity costs around 12-13p per unit (kWh). If you attempt to impose a similar tax/duty on electricity used for cars then the per unit price becomes something like 40p per kWh. Charging a 100kW Tesla suddenly costs £40 rather than the £12 it currently does. Explain to me how you're going to stop people just 'trickle charging' their car from a 13A socket @ £12 rather than the dedicated 3 phase socket @ £40. Ok it'll take much much longer, but be a hell of a lot cheaper.
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The inconvenience becomes a tax burden in its own right ::)
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Why would you want to impose that kind of tax anyway? Most of the revenue collected from the Road Fund Licence goes to other funding, not motoring benefits, so whatever payment avoided by our going electric will have to be garnered from general taxation, as I keep saying (yes, i know - repeatedly) that it should. The government has duped us for long enough with this hidden virement.
Ron.
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Why would you want to impose that kind of tax anyway? Most of the revenue collected from the Road Fund Licence goes to other funding, not motoring benefits, so whatever payment avoided by our going electric will have to be garnered from general taxation, as I keep saying (yes, i know - repeatedly) that it should. The government has duped us for long enough with this hidden virement.
Ron.
Well, I wouldn't want to, but fuel duty raises £27.5 Bn (Billion!!!) per year for the treasury. That's excluding the VAT which is charged on top of the duty. Source:
http://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/fuel-duties/
That's over half the defence budget, about one third of the education budget, and one hell of a hole to fill if we all suddenly all go electric. It would represent between 2% and 3% additional income tax. So is your role in the new post revoloution OOF government Chancellor or Minister for Transport?
As Benjamin Franklin supposedly once said, the only certainties in life are death and taxes.
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I have to ask, why "motoring" taxes at all? We ALL benefit from having roads, even the little old lady who just pops to Tesco's round the corner, because Tesco's must have lorries to bring them stock.
The time has come to stop regarding motoring taxes, including that on petrol, as a special case.
RFL revenue has been raided ever since Churchill, so let us now fund the roads, etc., from general taxation, since they benefit everyone and remove all RFL (VED, if you must call it that) and petrol taxes altogether and we can all relax and stop searching for alternative solutions.
Oh, and the pollution argument is fallacious - it is simply a massive con to make us compliant.
Ron.
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Thanks, Rods2, I'll start working on my agenda in the morning. Expect radical changes.
Do we really need speed limits?.....
Ron.
IOM doesn't outside their villages and towns and have found since having a word if somebody is speeding in these it reduces the offending rate more than issuing a ticket. :y :y :y
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I have to ask, why "motoring" taxes at all? We ALL benefit from having roads, even the little old lady who just pops to Tesco's .....
Because the public are idiots, and keep voting in government that make manifesto pledges not to raise income tax, national insurance or VAT, and then expect a health service, social security and education spending to increase and meet all their expectations. Having ruled out Income tax, NI and VAT you end up with all sorts of nonsense - Insurance Premium Tax, Flight Departure Tax, Pasty Tax and yes fuel duty and VEL/Road Tax trying to plug the gap.
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Yes, that is a fair assessment, LCO112G. What a mess we have got ourselves into.
The IOM seem to have the right idea, but of course they don't have BIG government there and as many self-serving shiney-arses with obscene salaries to pay for, so they can keep things simple and sensible.
TB will have to be busy and rid us of these parasites.....
Ron.
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How do you expect to extract several tens of kW out of your existing household supply without rewiring? Very few houses or domestic premises are connected to a three phase supply. Most domestic premises are single phase and fused at 60-80A, so that's about 15-20kW tops. The highest consumption device in a house is often the cooker - typically fused at 30-45A so 7.5-10kW. A 13A plug on a ring main will supply at most 3kW. Current Tesla batteries are 75-100kW. You think you're going to be able to take that amount of power from your domestic supply without some rewiring?
Not to mention that a typical suberb will be wired with diversity based on only 1-2kW per premises, probably less overnight. If everyone comes home, plugs in their Tesla, puts the kettle on, starts cooking dinner, etc. the local substation and its distribution wiring is going to get a little upset. ;D
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I have to ask, why "motoring" taxes at all? We ALL benefit from having roads, even the little old lady who just pops to Tesco's round the corner, because Tesco's must have lorries to bring them stock.
The time has come to stop regarding motoring taxes, including that on petrol, as a special case.
RFL revenue has been raided ever since Churchill, so let us now fund the roads, etc., from general taxation, since they benefit everyone and remove all RFL (VED, if you must call it that) and petrol taxes altogether and we can all relax and stop searching for alternative solutions.
Oh, and the pollution argument is fallacious - it is simply a massive con to make us compliant.
Ron.
It is obvious why we need these taxes. Once the field, pavement and road taxes infrastructure has been paid for in about 9 months, the person with the idea for this tax, me, along with the president and the transport minister each get 5% of the revenue raised each month where we need to each have a basic living wage. :y :y :y Where there will be no speed limits we can then spend it on fast women and even faster cars. :y :y :y ;D ;D ;D If Lord Opti had volunteered to be chancellor we would of given him 5% as well but as he hasn't that offer has expired. :P :P :P
If anybody objects to our basic living wages just remind them of the first law of being a politician, be very, very generous with other people's money when looking after your wages, pensions and expenses. :y :y :y
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I love your contribution to my policy portfolio, Rods2, but I do have a small reservation (no, NOT rude!); am I still up to fast women?
It would take a fully-resourced NHS to care for me afterwards! :-[
Ron.
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How do you expect to extract several tens of kW out of your existing household supply without rewiring? Very few houses or domestic premises are connected to a three phase supply. Most domestic premises are single phase and fused at 60-80A, so that's about 15-20kW tops. The highest consumption device in a house is often the cooker - typically fused at 30-45A so 7.5-10kW. A 13A plug on a ring main will supply at most 3kW. Current Tesla batteries are 75-100kW. You think you're going to be able to take that amount of power from your domestic supply without some rewiring?
Not to mention that a typical suberb will be wired with diversity based on only 1-2kW per premises, probably less overnight. If everyone comes home, plugs in their Tesla, puts the kettle on, starts cooking dinner, etc. the local substation and its distribution wiring is going to get a little upset. ;D
1. Local substations will be safe as when the intermittent wind, takes a pause the whole grid will collapse, like regularly happens in South Australia. :o :o :o
2. People will then be told to disconnect all appliances, so the grid can be rebooted district by district over 12 to 24 hours. :y :y :y
3. Once the grid has been restored and lots of people try to charge their cars again, go back to point 1 and repeat. ;D ;D ;D
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Ok, then let's have a little petrol engine, say a 2.6 litre V6, to charge the battery and carry on without the need to plug in to the public supply - good idea? 8) ???
Ron.
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I love your contribution to my policy portfolio, Rods2, but I do have a small reservation (no, NOT rude!); am I still up to fast women?
It would take a fully-resourced NHS to care for me afterwards! :-[
Ron.
Just pace yourself and as you get fitter it will get easier. Remember a politicians life is hard one for little reward, but somebody has to do it and we will all just have put up with our luxury, pampered lifestyles after all the EU Commission seems to manage. ;) ;) ;)
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Smart meters will become compulsory and we'll all have to have them at some point. ::)
Well in this household you're either going to have to run a phone line to any forcibly installed smart meter, or you're going to have to find a way to defeat the farriday cage which I'll build around the newly installed meter.
But when I said a smart meter being able to tell whether a car was being charged I meant a future generation of smart meter, and yes I believe it would be very do-able! :y
How exactly?
Anyway who said anything about rewiring houses? :-\ I certainly didn't! ::) But it wouldn't be much work to have a spur from the main to a dedicated car charging point with it's own meter. ;)
How do you expect to extract several tens of kW out of your existing household supply without rewiring? Very few houses or domestic premises are connected to a three phase supply. Most domestic premises are single phase and fused at 60-80A, so that's about 15-20kW tops. The highest consumption device in a house is often the cooker - typically fused at 30-45A so 7.5-10kW. A 13A plug on a ring main will supply at most 3kW. Current Tesla batteries are 75-100kW. You think you're going to be able to take that amount of power from your domestic supply without some rewiring?
They will have to work out some way of generating revenue from electric cars.... ::)
Yes, but people don't use Petrol/Diesel for much else but cars, so it's easy to tax them at the point of sale - the petrol station. Trying to tax electricity when used for cars alone will be a nightmare. 70% of the cost of petrol is tax/duty. Currently electricity costs around 12-13p per unit (kWh). If you attempt to impose a similar tax/duty on electricity used for cars then the per unit price becomes something like 40p per kWh. Charging a 100kW Tesla suddenly costs £40 rather than the £12 it currently does. Explain to me how you're going to stop people just 'trickle charging' their car from a 13A socket @ £12 rather than the dedicated 3 phase socket @ £40. Ok it'll take much much longer, but be a hell of a lot cheaper.
Point 1) If you build a faraday cage around your shiny new smart meter, they won't get the readings so they'll send a meter guy round get the readings manually and you will be prosecuted for tampering with your meter. Or eliminated maybe! :)
Point 2) I havn't got a crystal ball, nor am I a smart meter inventor so I don't know exactly, but I'm sure that they will figure out how to analyse your electricity usage to work out whether or not you are charging your car.
Point 3) If you feel you need a 3 phase supply for charging your car, then it will be a separate supply with it's own main fuse and meter. A costly installation for sure, but will not need any rewiring of the houses existing single phase system. Existing fast charge units draw 7kw and I sure could be metered separately. However as well as not having a crystal ball, nor being a smart meter inventor, neither am I an electrician so my knowledge here is sketchy. So I freely admit that I am speculating and don't really know what I am talking about. :P
Point 4) People will always try to get around rules and regulations, but I'm sure that with future technology and laws that forbid charging from anywhere but a separately metered car charging point (Where the juice is taxed so more expensive) they will work out how to raise the revenue. More speculation and bullshit I'm afraid, but it's the best I can do for you at this moment in time! :)
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Such a wise head on young shoulders, Rods2; I will heed your advice.
I understand thet there is a superb, subsidised grub shop in The House - good for the waistline (NOT).
Ron.
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Point 4) People will always try to get around rules and regulations, but I'm sure that with future technology and laws that forbid charging from anywhere but a separately metered car charging point (Where the juice is taxed so more expensive) they will work out how to raise the revenue. More speculation and bullshit I'm afraid, but it's the best I can do for you at this moment in time! :)
Yep, the place will be littered with Transit Tippers connected to the streetlamps, for a start. ;D
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Point 1) If you build a faraday cage around your shiny new smart meter, they won't get the readings so they'll send a meter guy round get the readings manually and you will be prosecuted for tampering with your meter. Or eliminated maybe! :)
Point 2) I havn't got a crystal ball, nor am I a smart meter inventor so I don't know exactly, but I'm sure that they will figure out how to analyse your electricity usage to work out whether or not you are charging your car.
Point 3) If you feel you need a 3 phase supply for charging your car, then it will be a separate supply with it's own main fuse and meter. A costly installation for sure, but will not need any rewiring of the houses existing single phase system. Existing fast charge units draw 7kw and I sure could be metered separately. However as well as not having a crystal ball, nor being a smart meter inventor, neither am I an electrician so my knowledge here is sketchy. So I freely admit that I am speculating and don't really know what I am talking about. :P
Point 4) People will always try to get around rules and regulations, but I'm sure that with future technology and laws that forbid charging from anywhere but a separately metered car charging point (Where the juice is taxed so more expensive) they will work out how to raise the revenue. More speculation and bullshit I'm afraid, but it's the best I can do for you at this moment in time! :)
/SirHumphreyVoice = on
Your faith in future Technologies is very brave, Sir Tigger
/SirHumphreyVoice = off
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Point 1) If you build a faraday cage around your shiny new smart meter, they won't get the readings so they'll send a meter guy round get the readings manually and you will be prosecuted for tampering with your meter. Or eliminated maybe! :)
Point 2) I havn't got a crystal ball, nor am I a smart meter inventor so I don't know exactly, but I'm sure that they will figure out how to analyse your electricity usage to work out whether or not you are charging your car.
Point 3) If you feel you need a 3 phase supply for charging your car, then it will be a separate supply with it's own main fuse and meter. A costly installation for sure, but will not need any rewiring of the houses existing single phase system. Existing fast charge units draw 7kw and I sure could be metered separately. However as well as not having a crystal ball, nor being a smart meter inventor, neither am I an electrician so my knowledge here is sketchy. So I freely admit that I am speculating and don't really know what I am talking about. :P
Point 4) People will always try to get around rules and regulations, but I'm sure that with future technology and laws that forbid charging from anywhere but a separately metered car charging point (Where the juice is taxed so more expensive) they will work out how to raise the revenue. More speculation and bullshit I'm afraid, but it's the best I can do for you at this moment in time! :)
/SirHumphreyVoice = on
Your faith in future Technologies is very brave, Sir Tigger
/SirHumphreyVoice = off
Or stupid Malc! ;D
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32A spurs for up to 7.5kw are used by electric cookers and only the smallest electric showers are rated at this, most are 8.5, 9.5 or 10.5kw using a 64A spur.
The easy way to tax electric car charging is to make the charging point connection activate upon demand, it only works by matching your car id and charging station id along with a pre-bought amount of charge which are sent to HMRC who hold your credit/debit card details and reserve the money. When you disconnect your car the amount of power you have used is sent to HRMC who then process the final transaction. A combination of car tracking and ANPR is then used to monitor the electric cars on the road and that the taxed charging amounts are statistically within that car's consumption band, with severe penalties of large fines, bans and prison sentences depending on the level of estimated evasion.
TB will never have a problem where he will use at least twice the average power for mileage done, :o :o :o whereas Tunnie where he uses a quarter of the average, might fall below the accepted threshold and get pulled. ::) ::) ::)
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Point 4) People will always try to get around rules and regulations, but I'm sure that with future technology and laws that forbid charging from anywhere but a separately metered car charging point (Where the juice is taxed so more expensive) they will work out how to raise the revenue. More speculation and bullshit I'm afraid, but it's the best I can do for you at this moment in time! :)
Yep, the place will be littered with Transit Tippers connected to the streetlamps, for a start. ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ah yes but tunnie will be laughing on cloudy days with little wind as the amount he managed to get charged will just get him to work and back. The verges will be littered with "flat" cars whose cold, music less drivers will be cursing the UK's dependence on renewables having cancelled the nuclear power stations under the latest EU green drive directive.
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1. Local substations will be safe as when the intermittent wind, takes a pause the whole grid will collapse, like regularly happens in South Australia. :o :o :o
2. People will then be told to disconnect all appliances, so the grid can be rebooted district by district over 12 to 24 hours. :y :y :y
3. Once the grid has been restored and lots of people try to charge their cars again, go back to point 1 and repeat. ;D ;D ;D
Not a problem, these smart meters have remote disconnect, its easy enough to turn off the great unwashed for a few hours so those in power can recharge their Bentley
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There is no Utopian solution.
But tax on fuel seems a pretty good compromise. :y
Although there is already 2 taxes on it vat and fuel tax, no mention of where they are spent
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Yes Grifter - exactly! Does anyone else remember when the government (not sure which) said they would never impose a tax on a tax, because that would be unfair and illegal?
Politicians' promises, eh?
Ron.
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Yes Grifter - exactly! Does anyone else remember when the government (not sure which) said they would never impose a tax on a tax, because that would be unfair and illegal?
Politicians' promises, eh?
Ron.
Ahh, but technically these aren't two taxes. There is Fuel Duty, and VAT. Most Duties have VAT applied on top - Booze, Fags, imports from outside the EU etc.
I'm not sure why you think a tax on tax is illegal anyway - plenty of other cases, of this happening particularly in the private pensions arena.
And why does anyone suppose that motoring taxes should only be used to improve transport related issues? Does Insurance Premium Tax improve insurance? Or Airport passenger Duty improve airports? Or Value Added Tax improve value? Very few taxes are ring fenced to pay for improvements to the thing that's being taxed. It just goes into a big pot in the treasury, and the govt decide how and what to dole the money out to.
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Why is there an Excise Duty on petrol (or anything else) anyway?
As I have said far too often on here (sorry!), the RFL was ring-fenced specifically for road building - hence the name. Churchill, back in the 1930s, saw a source of revenue that helped keep general taxes down - a vote winner. It has been thus ever since.
If we espouse your "big pot" scenario, then let us remove all specific motoring-related taxes (RFL, fuel, CO2, etc.) and fund roads and infrastructure purely from general taxation; after all, everyone benefits from these resources.
Ron.
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Why is there an Excise Duty on petrol (or anything else) anyway?
As I have said far too often on here (sorry!), the RFL was ring-fenced specifically for road building - hence the name. Churchill, back in the 1930s, saw a source of revenue that helped keep general taxes down - a vote winner. It has been thus ever since.
If we espouse your "big pot" scenario, then let us remove all specific motoring-related taxes (RFL, fuel, CO2, etc.) and fund roads and infrastructure purely from general taxation; after all, everyone benefits from these resources.
Ron.
But what is general taxation? Income tax wasn't introduced till 1798 and was specifically in order to pay for the Napoleonic Wars. I don't think we're still at war with Napoleon or the French - officially at least. So why not scrap income tax and go back to what we had before it - Window Tax.
National Insurance was introduced to pay for the NHS and the State Pension. In reality it does neither.
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Why dont we go back to having a much smaller state, people taking responsibility for their own lives, and people being allowed to keep most of the money they have earned in order to take responsibility for their own lives ?
Politicians are unlikely to want to go this route as they have got used to building their empires of useless depts. with huge taxpayer funded budgets. Got used to taking our money from us and then using it to buy our votes when they need them. And most people have got used to the enormous socialist state mentality which has convinced us that we are incapable of being independent adults, and the Govt. is our nanny who takes care of our needs and problems.
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I think that we all recognise Income Tax as being the general tax: you are being disingenuous!
As a Minister in TB's government, I plan to implement this policy, and dissenters will be culled by him..... 8)
Ron.
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I think that we all recognise Income Tax as being the general tax: you are being disingenuous!
As a Minister in TB's government, I plan to implement this policy, and dissenters will be culled by him..... 8)
Ron.
I'm not being disingenuous. There was an almighty fuss made when Income Tax was first proposed - you're only 'happy' with it because you've never known any different and income tax rates are now much lower than they used to be earlier in your working lifetime. My view is that ALL taxes are general taxation.
In recent years (i.e. the past 40 or so) there has been a noticeable move from "Income Tax" to "User Pays" taxes. The basic rate was cut from 33% to 30% by MaggieT in 1979. It's now only 20%. At the same time the personal allowance (basically a 0% tax band) rose from zero to £1165. Next tax year it'll be £11850.
In 1979 Geoffery Howe increased the VAT rate from 8% to 15%. Other chancellors have fiddled with the rate since then, and it went up to 17.5% and it's now 20%. There have been persistent rumours that it'll go up to 22.5% sooner or later. The old pre 1973 purchace tax was 33.33% and when VAT was first introduced it was 25%.
VAT is the main consumption tax - basically "User Pays", but Insurance Premium Tax, Airport Passenger Duty, RFL, Fuel Duty etc are also "User Pays". You have a choice whether to buy these goods or not. I accept that whilst there is no VAT on most foods, the taxes imposed on transport do force up the cost of food products. But - there is nothing to stop you growing your own food, keeping chickens etc (although the landlord of a 5th floor flat may object ;D).
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What a world some of us live in. :D ;D ;D ;D
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Why is there an Excise Duty on petrol (or anything else) anyway?
As I have said far too often on here (sorry!), the RFL was ring-fenced specifically for road building - hence the name. Churchill, back in the 1930s, saw a source of revenue that helped keep general taxes down - a vote winner. It has been thus ever since.
If we espouse your "big pot" scenario, then let us remove all specific motoring-related taxes (RFL, fuel, CO2, etc.) and fund roads and infrastructure purely from general taxation; after all, everyone benefits from these resources.
Ron.
But what is general taxation? Income tax wasn't introduced till 1798 and was specifically in order to pay for the Napoleonic Wars. I don't think we're still at war with Napoleon or the French - officially at least. So why not scrap income tax and go back to what we had before it - Window Tax.
National Insurance was introduced to pay for the NHS and the State Pension. In reality it does neither.
Well referenced ;) ;) :y :D :D ;)
It started to be levied in 1799 and has never left us, and never will unless the financial means of our country radically changes.
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Roll on global institutions like google, amazon paying everyone a living wage including their meal bar allowances. There would be no need then for countries to levy taxes just to doff their caps. ;D ;D