Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 11 February 2019, 15:56:45
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Fitted two front track rods from ATP (both inner and outer ‘ends’). Tracked it up the same time I adjusted the camber. Took it out. Lovely.
Week later I noticed it was wandering/slightly unstable at 60-ish. Checked tracking. Front camber still bang on with 1’ 10 exactly on NSF 😎 and 1’ 15 on OSF. But front toe was out again.
Adjusted again to 0’ 05 front toe. Again drove it on the dually and all good. Another week (maybe two actually) go by and I notice same slight instability. Pull it in yet again. Once again camber exactly as it was before, rear tracking bang on as I left it. But front toe out again 😧😧😧
These are, to TBs displeasure, ATP parts as mentioned above. I haven’t hit any pot holes and I e done hardly any miles. Wtf is going on? I’m tempted to just get some genuine ones but I’m struggling to see how they keep coming out of alignment. Any ideas?
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Are all four clamps tight?
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Yeah tightened them up but I must admit they didn’t feel very nice. I have kept the old ones so I think I’ll swap the clamp over for the old one as never had a problem with the old one. :y
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The spec is -0°10' +/-10' toe-in. There is a GM TID advisory somewhere to increase the toe-in to the max limit, that's a total toe-in of -0°20', primarily aimed at reducing abnormal wear to the inboard edges of the front tyres.
AIUI the intent is to compensate for the 'give' in the wishbone bushes which can add toe-out when the suspension is loaded.
So in addition to anything else you choose to do I would add some more toe-in.
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Thanks Encelidous.
TBH I’m completely happy with the OOF / WIM recommended settings. It’s just that I set it and then it alters out of spec very quickly.
As said I’ll put the old clamp back on and hopefully that’ll sort it.
If not I’ll try another set of track rods as they’re easy to change.
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Also worth mentioning that the toe setting relies on exactly where the steering wheel is clamped, so might vary slightly from session to session.
Check if the total toe has moved rather than just left and right.
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Thanks Kev.
Yeah that is true. It’s just weird how it drives real nice straight after and then is well out a week or two later lol
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Getting all new tyres in March so want to get this sorted asap. Fekkin cars 😂
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It's worth using a torque wrench on the track rod clamp bolts, 15Nm is quite tight. If loose they can rattle or drift out of setting.
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::)I think it's your arm bushing are gone. But what do I know? I'm from California
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New arms as of two weeks ago
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New arms as of two weeks ago
Correctly fitted of course...
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Of course. Car on deck before using an actual torque wrench to tighten nuts/bolts to spec 😎😎😎
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Count yourself lucky you're getting 2 weeks out of ATP shite ;).
Actually, count yourself lucky they actually sent them.
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😂😂😂😂😂
To be fair mate while I’ve never had a problem before I doubt I’d be having this issue should I have gone genuine. Any other brands out there that do the full track rods? That’s if I have no luck with swapping the clamps over?
Cheers.
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😂😂😂😂😂
To be fair mate while I’ve never had a problem before I doubt I’d be having this issue should I have gone genuine. Any other brands out there that do the full track rods? That’s if I have no luck with swapping the clamps over?
Cheers.
4 different makers of complete ends listed in my thread ...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=144379.15
I've gone for Meyle :)
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Awesome cheers mate 👍👍👍
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Count yourself lucky you're getting 2 weeks out of ATP shite ;).
Actually, count yourself lucky they actually sent them.
TB, you have a very jaundiced view of ATP! Serek replaced my wishbones, track rod and drop link as per the ATP kits in November 2017 - and the kit arrived promptly.
Ron.
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Count yourself lucky you're getting 2 weeks out of ATP shite ;).
Actually, count yourself lucky they actually sent them.
TB, you have a very jaundiced view of ATP everything!
I fixed that for you, Ron! ;)
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Idler arm ok?
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did you buy omega arms or carlton ones as i had the same problem with my old one. just a thought. :y
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TB, you have a very jaundiced view of ATP!
Because its shit (assuming it arrives - they are good at blaming DHL, failing to realise I have a contact at DHL who can see the ticket was never requested, no wonder they refuse point blank to give tracking number).
I hate to see people waste money unnecessarily.
Serek replaced my wishbones, track rod and drop link as per the ATP kits in November 2017
I guarantee they are borderline oppsed. If they aren't, they are completely oppsed.
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Idler arm ok?
Good question. I know it’s never been changed in my ownership. I’ll search the guides for how to test. Could that cause this odd issue?
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Anything that causes slack between the two front wheels can make it so that every time you measure it, the toe is different - I've had the same with knackered wishbones on the old M3, but steering idler, track rods & ends, wishbones are all potential culprits.
On my M3 you could roll it off the ramp, back on to the ramp and get a totally different reading - the problem there was that as you adjusted the toe you were effectively also 'pre-loading' stress into the wishbone bushes, rolling the car back and forward relaxed that stress and the reading would change.
Actually, give that a try - set your toe, leave the steering wheel locked, roll it back off the ramp and then back on to the ramp and check it again - see if it's changed significantly; if it has, there is definitely play in a steering or toe control related component.
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Thanks Aaron 👍👍👍
If I find the idler to be an issue is it Lemforder? And how easy does it come off the chassis stud?
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Really easily... Not...
Undo the nut, remove the washer and smash ten bells of shit out of it with two hammers ;)
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Will do. Cheers 👍👍👍👍
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If DG, who typically says everything takes 20 minutes including tea break says it's hard, I'd probably just pay a garage to d.. oh, wait. er.. scratch that ;) ;D
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Not just a random clouting with two hammers. There's a knack to it and a forum guide is available here (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90626.0). The trick is to have some upwards pressure on it before you hit it with the hammer(s). Hence the cold chisel in the guide.
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Not just a random clouting with two hammers. There's a knack to it and a forum guide is available here (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90626.0). The trick is to have some upwards pressure on it before you hit it with the hammer(s). Hence the cold chisel in the guide.
The two hammer method is a well defined Omega suspension process.
My slightly flippant instructions are simply suggesting that it might be a touch on the tight side ;)
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Assuming I can get it in I’ll just air hammer it off. Or if it really puts up a fight I’ll cut it off.
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Not just a random clouting with two hammers. There's a knack to it and a forum guide is available here (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90626.0). The trick is to have some upwards pressure on it before you hit it with the hammer(s). Hence the cold chisel in the guide.
The two hammer method is a well defined Omega suspension process.
No, it's a standard procedure for any taper joint. They are best sprung apart with a sharp blow on the socket, rather than forced apart with wedges. With some practice and a large enough hammer, you probably won't need the second hammer.
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Yeah was a bit confused as to why two hammers needed?
Hit what it goes through. 👍
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Yeah was a bit confused as to why two hammers needed?
The second hammer held against the other side of the socket amplifies the blow. If you can get a good swing with a big hammer, as when splitting track rods it's not worth worrying about. When doing idler arms with the car on axle stands, it's probably worth considering.
One thing that's worth mentioning: be very careful if doing this on aluminium housings!!!!!
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Hold the face of one hammer against the joint and then hit the joint with the other hammer, to reflect the shock so to speak. Simultaneously press down on the end of your chisel so that upward pressure (at the other end) is applied to the bottom of the socket on the drop-link steering idler. Add up the number of hands required and then it will be obvious why it's a pain in the rear.
If your Omega has an original GM drop-link idler then I suggest you make triple sure that it really is the source of your problems. OEM spec ones are no longer made and are scarcer than hen's teeth. The next best was at one time deemed to be a Lemförder. It seems to me that nowadays Lemförder no longer manufacture the links and just import and re-brand the same Chinese made rubbish everybody else does.
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Hmmm. More hands. Definitely on my Christmas list.
Ok thanks for info
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Worth mentioning that the larger, heavier hammer should be behind the joint, not the one that you hit with; it helps to keep the joint still and makes best use of your force.
I like the chisel tip! :y
Ron.
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Hmmm. More hands. Definitely on my Christmas list.
:-X :-X
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is it Lemforder?
No, their idlers are shite now as well. Hence why I said GM only (or a poly one)
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Believe Serek has a contact in Poland who will supply a poly version on exchange plus a few £
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Thanks guys. How much r we talking for genuine?
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£60-100? :-\
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£60-100? :-\
I think the last one I bought was about £60ish, but that was 5 or 6 years ago.
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A quick rummage in the US suggests $72+ for pattern... so circa £60 would be reasonable ;)
I didn't search by part number though and it might be possible that a broader choice of Carlton ones exist :-\
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Thanks for info guys 👍👍👍👍
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Part number is GM 9195731. However I suspect that factory original is long obsolete and no longer available. So phone your local dealer and ask. Also factory was likely ZF but they don't seem to sell these in the aftermarket. Which probably means there are no ZF left.
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Here do...
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=302988501855&category=6763&pm=1&ds=0&t=1549457272000&ver=0
Not cheap, but only four left :-X
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if your searching for carlton ones,there are 2 different lengths available so be careful :y
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if your searching for carlton ones,there are 2 different lengths available so be careful :y
As there are for the Omega ::)
One is for power steering, tother isn't, and ultimately, 2mm is neither here nor there ;)
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Power steering. Don't all Omega B have power steering? The only other idler for Omega B is 90305898. This is used with Y25TD, an engine option never available on RHD Vauxhall. It also has a different shape at the bush end.
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Changed it tonight.
5 seconds with air hammer and it was off.
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if your searching for carlton ones,there are 2 different lengths available so be careful :y
As there are for the Omega ::)
One is for power steering, tother isn't, and ultimately, 2mm is neither here nor there ;)
carlton senny idler arms come in 2 variant lengths ::)
110mm AND 121mm
11mm makes a big difference if you fit the wrong one ;D
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if your searching for carlton ones,there are 2 different lengths available so be careful :y
As there are for the Omega ::)
One is for power steering, tother isn't, and ultimately, 2mm is neither here nor there ;)
carlton senny idler arms come in 2 variant lengths ::)
110mm AND 121mm
11mm makes a big difference if you fit the wrong one ;D
I knew it had a 2 in it... :D
You could always fit the pitman arm to match ::)
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Changed it tonight.
5 seconds with air hammer and it was off.
You make it sound easy. Did you put a heavy hammer behind the taper?
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Changed it tonight.
5 seconds with air hammer and it was off.
You make it sound easy. Did you put a heavy hammer behind the taper?
It is easy. I've not needed two hammers for splitting trackrod ends for years. A good hard clout with one big hammer is enough to split joints that have been together for 40 years.
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Changed it tonight.
5 seconds with air hammer and it was off.
You make it sound easy. Did you put a heavy hammer behind the taper?
No mate. No hammers used. The nut that secures it to the chassis came off easy. And then it literally slid off. The nut on the ball joint end was tight but then once off I got a stubby bit for my air hammer. Five seconds of dugga duggaring and it was off.
If I was to do it without the luxury of the air hammer I’d have got a drift and smashed seven bells out of it*. Access was a bit tight (hence the drift) but I didn’t bother jacking it up removing wheels etc. so that would help.
One thing to note as with most ball joints on fitting the new one I had to jack up the bottom of it otherwise it would have just spun as I tightened the nut. Other than that it was straight forward 👍
*when I say id have smashed seven bells. I actually mean id have got young un to hold the drift while I swung at it. Do this if you’re limited in hands. If not hold it yourself 👍
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One thing to note as with most ball joints on fitting the new one I had to jack up the bottom of it otherwise it would have just spun as I tightened the nut. Other than that it was straight forward 👍
Give the joint a healthy tap with your splitting hammer, then pull the steering to full lock and tighten the nut.
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Whatever is ur preference mate 👍👍👍
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It doesn't always work, then you use the jack.
And if you're lucky enough to be working with a lift, using the jack isn't really an option.......
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What is a "stubby bit"?
For the benefit of us all, where did you get the new idler arm from?
Maybe hang on to the old arm in case it can be sent somewhere to be polybushed?
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It doesn't always work, then you use the jack.
And if you're lucky enough to be working with a lift, using the jack isn't really an option.......
I should clarify. I did this on the four poster and to jack it up I used the transmission jack 👍
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What is a "stubby bit"?
For the benefit of us all, where did you get the new idler arm from?
Maybe hang on to the old arm in case it can be sent somewhere to be polybushed?
Just an old air hammer chisel that I lobbied the chisel bit off ages ago. Sorry I can’t think of what they’re called 😢 I’ll try n upload a pic of what I mean 😀
I used a Febi part. Got it from Andrew Page for £30 trade inc. vat. I’ll find out the retail price 👍
As per TBs advice I’d have liked to have put genuine on but I am moderately poor 😂😂😂 and just for the shits n giggles I’ll be putting better quality track rods on also. Again as per TBs advice I used ATP and am seeing some issues so I’d rather just replace and forget about it. The track rods aren’t too badly priced from Vauxhall’s so I may go that route
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Thank you gentlemen. I am much enlightened. Normally I split tapered joints with screw extractors, but access bars their use on the drop link. I have an air hammer which I have never used - must do next time.
To reassemble a tapered joint I put washers on the screw of the joint leaving a few threads exposed, then put on and tighten the nut, pulling in the taper; then remove nut and washers, replace and torque up the nut. This avoids the locking nut end turning the screw.
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I tap the new part into place and fit and tighten the nut. Occasionally the part needs supporting to prevent spinning ;)
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*when I say id have smashed seven bells. I actually mean id have got young un to hold the drift while I swung at it. Do this if you’re limited in hands. If not hold it yourself 👍
:-X ;D
Did the garage supply you with the young un, or did you have to supply your own? ;) :D
What is a "stubby bit"?
So. Many. Jokes.
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😂😂😂😂😂😂
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Thank you gentlemen. I am much enlightened. Normally I split tapered joints with screw extractors, but access bars their use on the drop link. I have an air hammer which I have never used - must do next time.
To reassemble a tapered joint I put washers on the screw of the joint leaving a few threads exposed, then put on and tighten the nut, pulling in the taper; then remove nut and washers, replace and torque up the nut. This avoids the locking nut end turning the screw.
I wouldn’t be without my air hammer. Things that instantly spring to mind that I use it on are seized in bottom ball joint pinch bolts, drive shafts seized in hubs and my personal favourite... seized in brake disc screws.
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Thank you gentlemen. I am much enlightened. Normally I split tapered joints with screw extractors, but access bars their use on the drop link. I have an air hammer which I have never used - must do next time.
To reassemble a tapered joint I put washers on the screw of the joint leaving a few threads exposed, then put on and tighten the nut, pulling in the taper; then remove nut and washers, replace and torque up the nut. This avoids the locking nut end turning the screw.
Webby works in a garage, and will have air available all the time. By the time you've charged your compressor to try an air hammer, you could have knocked the joint apart, replaced it, put the car back on the ground and be getting the beer coffee and biscuits ready. I keep writing this: use a big hammer
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So since fitting the idler I’ve taken my dog up and down a stretch of dually near work quite a few times where it always acts up. And by acts up I mean I get it to 60 and it’s slightly unstable to the point where I back off to slow down.
That.
Gone 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
Four new tyres when I get paid
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Scrap that 😩😩😩
Took it down dually this morning and it definitely does feel better. I reckon the toes still out so will get new track rods, readjust, and stick my new tyres on and see where we get with that. 👍
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Half a job Bob :D
You'll get it sorted in the end, and even at 25 mph, you'll feel the improvement :y
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Yeah I know. But I am lazy. I’ll track it up today. I hope I don’t need a centre track rod. My tyres are going to leave me broke next month 😩😩😩
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Yeah I know. But I am lazy. I’ll track it up today. I hope I don’t need a centre track rod. My tyres are going to leave me broke next month 😩😩😩
Webby.
Did you find the new ATP track rod ball joints to be the problem come the end or was it something else?
I am just about to replace mine with ATP track rods that were in the box named Atec tomorrow because it failed its mot.
Thanks
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Yeah I know. But I am lazy. I’ll track it up today. I hope I don’t need a centre track rod. My tyres are going to leave me broke next month 😩😩😩
Webby.
Did you find the new ATP track rod ball joints to be the problem come the end or was it something else?
I am just about to replace mine with ATP track rods that were in the box named Atec tomorrow because it failed its mot.
Thanks
Just fit them. Worst case you can replace in 10k time knowing that they lasted 10k and were effectively free :y
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Yeah I know. But I am lazy. I’ll track it up today. I hope I don’t need a centre track rod. My tyres are going to leave me broke next month 😩😩😩
Webby.
Did you find the new ATP track rod ball joints to be the problem come the end or was it something else?
I am just about to replace mine with ATP track rods that were in the box named Atec tomorrow because it failed its mot.
Thanks
Just fit them. Worst case you can replace in 10k time knowing that they lasted 10k and were effectively free :y
Don't forget, Mother Bear smacked a curb with it a while back...
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Yeah I know. But I am lazy. I’ll track it up today. I hope I don’t need a centre track rod. My tyres are going to leave me broke next month 😩😩😩
Webby.
Did you find the new ATP track rod ball joints to be the problem come the end or was it something else?
I am just about to replace mine with ATP track rods that were in the box named Atec tomorrow because it failed its mot.
Thanks
Just fit them. Worst case you can replace in 10k time knowing that they lasted 10k and were effectively free :y
OK will do Al. :y Just a bit worried there were problems with them.
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Yeah I know. But I am lazy. I’ll track it up today. I hope I don’t need a centre track rod. My tyres are going to leave me broke next month 😩😩😩
Webby.
Did you find the new ATP track rod ball joints to be the problem come the end or was it something else?
I am just about to replace mine with ATP track rods that were in the box named Atec tomorrow because it failed its mot.
Thanks
Just fit them. Worst case you can replace in 10k time knowing that they lasted 10k and were effectively free :y
Don't forget, Mother Bear smacked a curb with it a while back...
Hope the damage wasn't to bad.