Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: terry paget on 09 May 2020, 15:19:21
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2008 Vectra 1,8 petrol manual saloon
This car has been off the road for 2 months with a minor coolant leak. all is now reassembled, ready to test start, but the starter does not crank. It may well be a faulty starter or solenoid, but it was starting fine before the strip down.
Battery has been recharged, showing 12.55 volts across the terminals. Turning the ignition key to start position, nothing happens, and the voltage at battery remains at 12.55. Similarly, headlights on are not dimmed on turning the key, and I hear no click from the starter.
Might it be an immobiliser problem, or a fuse?
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I'd still expect the engine to turn over if there was an immobiliser fault.
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Is the starter accessible? Can you get access to short across the solenoid to operate the starter from under the bonnet? MAKE SURE IT'S OUT OF GEAR :y
Not that I've ever done that ..... :-[
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Quickie diagnosis:
Bridge the terminals on the starter with a screwdriver.
If it turns, you need to check the wiring with a mutimeter.
If it doesn't turn, the starter is poor. Give it a hefty whack and try again. If that works, you can now drive the car to your nearest supplier of replacement parts - don't buy one off Ebay as you'll probably endup with a Chinese Yak52 one. Which won't match the fittings on your car
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Giving a dodgy starter a hefty whack is always the first thing I do! ;D
Can you bump start it Terry? ???
Am I allowed to suggest bump starting on here? ::) :-\ ;D
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If it's any consolation Terry, your Vectra's starter can't be as difficult to access as a Smart Roadster's starter is ::) ::)
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Put it in gear, hand brake and ignition OFF, and roll the car forward and backward. Then out of gear and try to crank it again...
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If it's any consolation Terry, your Vectra's starter can't be as difficult to access as a Smart Roadster's starter is ::) ::)
You say that... ;D
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If it's any consolation Terry, your Vectra's starter can't be as difficult to access as a Smart Roadster's starter is ::) ::)
You say that... ;D
I've practical experience of the Smart's .... it took me about 5 hours to remove & similar to fit the new one. What a t**t ;)
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I don't recall ever seeing a Vectra one :D
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I don't recall ever seeing a Vectra one :D
I can now point out the starter on the Roadster as it has a nice white sticker on it still. ;D And besides, a Vectra has a huge bonnet to lift so you can see the engine ..... a Roadster has a tea tray sized inspection hatch instead. ::) ::)
Still .... a Smart drives the correct wheels :y :y :y
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I can get a hand on the Barge one from above. Which is nice :D
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I can get a hand on the Barge one from above. Which is nice :D
I'm embarrassed to say that I've never looked that hard under the bonnet of my ML to know where it is ::) ::)
I know there's a big plastic ''don't touch'' cover over the engine! ::) ::)
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And no doubt the mechanics in the stealers obey that to the letter :D ;D ;D
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And no doubt the technicians in the stealers obey that to the letter :D ;D ;D
You assume that they can stop Snapchatting long enough to read the label... ::)
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/xdwevbx7in1t8l1/DN08starter.jpg?dl=1)
Here is the starter. I expected to find 12 volts on the power cable at left of pic, but I do not. I assume the cable goes direct to the battery positive terminal. I imagine if I put the key in and turn it against the spring I should gain 12v at the cable end to the solenoid too, but one thing at a time.
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That wire to the left looks like a ground :-\
The solenoid makes throws a lever inside the starter making contact to spin it over.
A smack with a soft faced mallet whilst cranking (in neutral) should free it.
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That wire to the left looks like a ground :-\
The solenoid makes throws a lever inside the starter making contact to spin it over.
A smack with a soft faced mallet whilst cranking (in neutral) should free it.
Looks pretty hefty for a ground. I thought all starters were earthed to the metal engines and the earth strap. That lead is in a handy place for installation, if not the live lead, where is it? I thought all modern starters, like on the Omega, had solenoids that engaged the pulled the pinion into mesh with the flywheel gear, then pulled the switch points together to power the starter motor. Older starters used inertial engagement.
Obviously I cannot crank the starter. Do you mean I should have an assistant turn the key to start position while I hit the starter with a hammer? Where should I hit it?
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..... Do you mean I should have an assistant turn the key to start position while I hit the starter with a hammer?
Yes :y
Where should I hit it?
Small bit on the side ie the solenoid :)
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If the starter is stuck though, surely you'd still hear the solenoid click? ??? :-\
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If the starter is stuck though, surely you'd still hear the solenoid click? ??? :-\
More likely to be the solenoid that's stuck.
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..... Do you mean I should have an assistant turn the key to start position while I hit the starter with a hammer?
Yes :y
Where should I hit it?
Small bit on the side ie the solenoid :)
And breathe... ???
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I don't recall ever seeing a Vectra one :D
I can now point out the starter on the Roadster as it has a nice white sticker on it still. ;D And besides, a Vectra has a huge bonnet to lift so you can see the engine ..... a Roadster has a tea tray sized inspection hatch instead. ::) ::)
Still .... a Smart drives the correct wheels :y :y :y
Unfortunately they are far to close to the front ones to make it worthwhile or a nice experience ;D ;D :y
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Two stages to starter diagnosis and the first is to listen, when somebody moves the ignition switch to the start position, do you hear a click (solenoid trying to move).
If no, check the smaller cable is well connected and if you can, measure to see if you get 12V when the ignition is turned to the start position.
Second stage is to check that if there is a click, if volts are getting to the starter motor itself.
I assume its not an auto?
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Today I tried hitting the solenoid with a soft nosed hammer with ignition switch in 'crank' mode, no joy.
I explored further with a multimeter. The heavy lead in middle of picture is, as DG thought, earthy, probably the main engine earth lead. There is a 2 lead bundle to the solenoid, the light lead on the terminal to the solenoid, and the heavy lead to the right, at constant +12v, also attached to the solenoid.
I expected the lighter lead to become +12v when key is turned to crank position, but it does not. I wonder why.
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The key needs holding to crank, leaving it in position 2 ain't gonna cut it...
Presumably you have checked the fuses?
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Did you try rocking it in gear with the ignition OFF? ???
That will often free them up as DG mentioned earlier. :y
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Did you try rocking it in gear with the ignition OFF? ???
That will often free them up as DG mentioned earlier. :y
Yes, tried that.Sadly, no joy.
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as you mentioned terry ,that thin wire should go live in crank position so join a wire onto it and try it on the battery + to prove starter is ok at least .then you need to trace wire back to key .
as mentioned is it an auto ?
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1.8 vectra c is Manual only ;)
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1.8 vectra c is Manual only ;)
And he did say so in the very first sentence.
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The key needs holding to crank, leaving it in position 2 ain't gonna cut it...
Presumably you have checked the fuses?
Thanks Doc. Yes, assistant did hold it to crank, but no volts appeared.
Just checked fuse 26 luggage compartment, 'Terminal 15 (starter switch) Twin Audio', 25 amp fuse in place and OK. I cannot see any other fuse listed worthy of attention.
I am tempted to check that lead on my other Vectra tomorrow.
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OK, given as that's the basics outlined...
Are you getting 12v across the battery?
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12.55 ;D
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I don't recall ever seeing a Vectra one :D
I can now point out the starter on the Roadster as it has a nice white sticker on it still. ;D And besides, a Vectra has a huge bonnet to lift so you can see the engine ..... a Roadster has a tea tray sized inspection hatch instead. ::) ::)
Still .... a Smart drives the correct wheels :y :y :y
Unfortunately they are far to close to the front ones to make it worthwhile or a nice experience ;D ;D :y
;D ;D ;D ;D
Tell me about it when I'm on the motorway & it's windy!
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OK, given as that's the basics outlined...
Are you getting 12v across the battery?
Yes, and 12v between earth and heavy lead to terminal on solenoid too.
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Are you definitely using the correct key to start the car ?
not a spare key that may not have the transponder programmed
does the key work the central locking ?
and sure that no aftermarket kill switch or immobilizer is fitted :-\
seems odd it was working and now isn't with just the battery flat/being swapped :-\
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Surely the engine would turn over without the correct transponder?
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Surely the engine would turn over without the correct transponder?
An Omega yes, Vectrum? :-\
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Are you definitely using the correct key to start the car ?
not a spare key that may not have the transponder programmed
does the key work the central locking ?
and sure that no aftermarket kill switch or immobilizer is fitted :-\
seems odd it was working and now isn't with just the battery flat/being swapped :-\
Yes, the right key, it works the central locking, I'm not aware of any other kill switch or immobiliser.
I bought this car last July, it's due MOT April 14th 2020, chasing a small water leak I created another one, see http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=146494.0. Then the coronavirus changed everything, Vx dealers closed, MOTs were extended, over 70s were locked down indefinitely. I repaired the coolant leak, refilled with coolant. In recommissioning the car, the starter will not function.
It seems odd to me too.
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When you say it works the central locking, is that mechanically in the lock or using the fob buttons?
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is the starter motor anywhere near where the coolant leaked :-\
I'm wandering if some coolant bridged the start terminal to ground ,blowing a fuse , unlikely
or any work done fixing the leak damaged the loom or disconnected something :-\
also , are all lives and grounds that where on the battery now back on (i say that because often battery terminals have more than 1 wire )
now the battery is re-connected ,has any codes been stored ?
doing a code read with your Chinese computer thingy could shed some light
try engine ,then a full module scan is what I would do :y
another thought , seem to remember the vec c suffering CIM or clock fails ? don't know anything about it
perhaps someone who knows vec c could give some pointers DG or TB perhaps ??
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When you say it works the central locking, is that mechanically in the lock or using the fob buttons?
Using the fob buttons
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or is it called SIM not CIM , i can't remember :-[
another test is to disconnect the power steering motor and try and start it
but code read is a good start point :y
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is the starter motor anywhere near where the coolant leaked :-\
I'm wandering if some coolant bridged the start terminal to ground ,blowing a fuse , unlikely
or any work done fixing the leak damaged the loom or disconnected something :-\
also , are all lives and grounds that where on the battery now back on (i say that because often battery terminals have more than 1 wire )
now the battery is re-connected ,has any codes been stored ?
doing a code read with your Chinese computer thingy could shed some light
try engine ,then a full module scan is what I would do :y
another thought , seem to remember the vec c suffering CIM or clock fails ? don't know anything about it
perhaps someone who knows vec c could give some pointers DG or TB perhaps ??
Coolant leak was in front of the block, starter is at the back, so did not get wet. I will check the leads are all still connected, but think they are.
I will try a scan tomorrow, but car has run well for nine months, and has not suffered much dissembly, and there is power at the starter. It's just all new to me; I have changed several starters on Senators and Omegas, but the Vectra is different.
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Try again with the clutch pedal pressed...
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Try again with the clutch pedal pressed...
Good thinking - tried that. Did not crank. However, did notice that display now says F gal/h and the fuel gauge is stuck on empty. Also, had noticed on some earlier attempts to crank after failure to crank the green cruise symbol was lit. This car is the one on which the cruise did not work as purchased, and we cured eventually by insrting a 7.5 amp fuse into vacant slot FI 20.
This morning I noticed 10 seconds of clicking on cranking key I have not heard before, and the visual display behaves differently while attempting to crank.
I will check fuse FI 20, add fuel, and report back. I don't think it was low on fuel, though.
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That sounds like a voltage issue :-\
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Battery's gone flat, by the sounds of it.
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Battery's gone flat, by the sounds of it.
Or the terminals are loose...
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Battery's gone flat, by the sounds of it.
Or the terminals are loose...
Or it's completely knackered from sitting flat for weeks , ask the Chinese for a new one , only fair ;D :D
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GLWT ;D
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That sounds like a voltage issue :-\
Agreed, sounds like battery flat or fubar :y
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Ok, that's four posts for flat battery. ;D
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Oh.....that's actually five now.
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Ermmmm........six.
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Sev.......I'll stop now. ;D
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Iremoved the battery in March for recharging while car was off the road. I had planned to leave the car awaiting spare Vx cable as advised by DG, but got bored and decided to recommission it. Car had no battery for about five weeks.
On my bench are several Vx batteries, all from scrapped Vauxhalls, all charged regularly. After refilling with coolant I fitted a fully charged battery and attempted to start the engine. Starter did not crank. I changed the battery. Starter again failed to crank. I jumped another good battery battery in car. Still no joy. hence this thread.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/f59nul5xnxh6ky9/DN08batteryCOMP.jpg?dl=1)
Battery compartment has many leads, as in pic, but all seem OK. Car is canbuss.
I do not believe all my batteries are dead. I have other cars, I move batteries around occasionally. As this thread describes, strange things are happening. If it were a PC, I would stop and restart it and all would be well. Maybe I should remove the battery overnight and try again.
Car is currently on a SORN note. It might bump start in the drive, would that help?
Please advise.
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I would suggest putting a suspectedly charged battery on the car, then jump start it from a working car.
Rolling it down the drive A, won't be enough, and B, you'll have to push it back up the drive.
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If you can push it back if it doesn't start, then try bump starting it. :y
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I can see the headlines now...
"In a tragic accident, an elderly gent accidentally runs over wife trying to push the family car up the drive having unsuccessfully tried to bump start it..."
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I can see the headlines now...
"In a tragic accident, an elderly gent accidentally runs over wife trying to push the family car up the drive having unsuccessfully tried to bump start it..."
Nah, that's too long for a headline.
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The drive slopes gently downhill towards the garage, is 20 yards long and I can tow the car up it with the Omega. I agree it would struggle to start the engine, is risky, and would probably get us no further forward.
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Waste of time and effort.
See my previous re jump starting it from a working car :y
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Ignition switch buggered ? i.e lights on dash in p2 the sod all cranking in p3 ?
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Ignition switch buggered ? i.e lights on dash in p2 the sod all cranking in p3 ?
I was gonna suggest that but people tend to laugh at me when I talk technical. ;D
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It occurred to me that as I have 12v at one terminal, and 12v at the other terminal should pull in the solenoid, if I join them the starter should engage and turn the engine. And it did.
But the engine did not start. My assistant observed that yesterday the fuel gauge said half full, now it's stuck on empty. Also the display says F gal/h which isn't very helpful.
Please advise.
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Correction. My assistant now says when she got into the car this afternoon it said tank half full, then I cranked the ngine, she looked again at the fuel gauge and it had dropped to empty. But it said empty last night and his morning. I've just checked, still says empty.
Could it be a dodgy relay?
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Could also be out of fuel ::)
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Could also be out of fuel ::)
But it was half full yesterday and it hasn't been anywhere. There is no puddle, and no smell of petrol.
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If the gauge reads empty, and it turns over but won't start... What reasonable conclusion might one reach?
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If the gauge reads empty, and it turns over but won't start... What reasonable conclusion might one reach?
I thought it wasn't turning over because of the starter... :-\
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If the gauge reads empty, and it turns over but won't start... What reasonable conclusion might one reach?
I thought it wasn't turning over because of the starter... :-\
I think from his last, that it turned over...
It has just occurred to me that it's possible it didn't start because the key wasn't in with the ignition on :-X
That's to say shorting the solenoid terminals with a battery connected will make it crank until the amps run out...
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If the gauge reads empty, and it turns over but won't start... What reasonable conclusion might one reach?
I thought it wasn't turning over because of the starter... :-\
I think from his last, that it turned over...
It has just occurred to me that it's possible it didn't start because the key wasn't in with the ignition on :-X
Key was in, ignition turned on, handbrake hard on, gear in neutral,and SWMBO was in the car for further safety. Rear lights work, but looks like there is no power to fuel pump and gauge.
Anyway I do not need a new starter, all it lacks is power to the solenoid relay. Tomorrow I shall plug in my diagnoser.
Any more advice very welcome.
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Fuse 2 in the engine bay still intact?
Diddy one in a block of 6. 25a...
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Fuse 2 in the engine bay still intact?
Diddy one in a block of 6. 25a...
Yes, checked that this morning.
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Fuse 7? Another Diddy one, 15a just across the gap from F2. ;)
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Fuse 7? Another Diddy one, 15a just across the gap from F2. ;)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/a6jeyp05b9xfeqa/DN08frontRELAYS%26fuses.jpg?dl=1)
Fuse 7 is OK too.
There are eight relays in the front box. I don't see in Haynes or the owner's handbook what they do. Might one of them be responsible?
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Tap the top of K1 with the key held at crank.
K1 is the sodding great red relay.
And report back
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Tap the top of K1 with the key held at crank.
K1 is the sodding great red relay.
And report back
Did that, nothing happened.
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Quickie diagnosis:
Bridge the terminals on the starter with a screwdriver.
If it turns, you need to check the wiring with a mutimeter.
If it doesn't turn, the starter is poor. Give it a hefty whack and try again. If that works, you can now drive the car to your nearest supplier of replacement parts - don't buy one off Ebay as you'll probably endup with a Chinese Yak52 one. Which won't match the fittings on your car
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Quickie diagnosis:
Bridge the terminals on the starter with a screwdriver.
If it turns, you need to check the wiring with a mutimeter.
If it doesn't turn, the starter is poor. Give it a hefty whack and try again. If that works, you can now drive the car to your nearest supplier of replacement parts - don't buy one off Ebay as you'll probably endup with a Chinese Yak52 one. Which won't match the fittings on your car
Thanks, Nick. Now I understand your advice. On the Vectra, shorting the live and solenoid terminals needed more than a screwdriver, and the hefty whack is to free a sticky solenoid. I was impressed when son Jonny called out the AA when his car wouldn't start, the man 'just hit it with a hammer', and it started.
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Tap the top of K1 with the key held at crank.
K1 is the sodding great red relay.
And report back
Did that, nothing happened.
Repeat with K3 as that feeds K1
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Tap the top of K1 with the key held at crank.
K1 is the sodding great red relay.
And report back
Did that, nothing happened.
Repeat with K3 as that feeds K1
Did that, again nothing happened. In fact, I tapped all eight relays in turn, but nothing happened.
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A lot of random bits of fault finding on here, its clear there is a start inhibit somewhere, do you have any fault codes in any of the systems?
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That's the trouble with diagnosing stuff over tinterweb...
Especially when details are random and sporadic :D
ie:
A "my carpets all wet"
B "Is the scuttle drain blocked?"
A "I don't think so."
B "Have you checked?"
A "Where is it?"
B "Passenger side under the pollen filter housing"
Three days later...
A "Found it."
B "The scuttle drain? Was it blocked?"
A "No, the leak. I left the sunroof open when I washed the car..."
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A lot of random bits of fault finding on here, its clear there is a start inhibit somewhere, do you have any fault codes in any of the systems?
Not yet, keep failing to connect my code readers. I have tried both cheapo code reader and laptop device in both this Vectra and the 07 car that is OK, but both say poor connection or ignition is not switched on. Will try again after lunch.
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Pedal trick it...
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Pedal trick it...
Pedal trick did not work. Nor did paper clip trick.
Code reader fine on Astra 2006, not on Vectra 2007 or Vectra 2008, bother.
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
bump ::)
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
bump ::)
As said in reply66, starter works fine connecting solenoid terminals 12v live to solenoid activate, it cranks the engine, but ngine does not start.
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
bump ::)
Nope, jump, with leads, from a working car.
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
bump ::)
As said in reply66, starter works fine connecting solenoid terminals 12v live to solenoid activate, it cranks the engine, but ngine does not start.
Didn't answer the question.
Have you physically connected the battery on the car to the battery of a working car with jump leads for the express purpose of starting it?
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
bump ::)
As said in reply66, starter works fine connecting solenoid terminals 12v live to solenoid activate, it cranks the engine, but ngine does not start.
Didn't answer the question.
Have you physically connected the battery on the car to the battery of a working car with jump leads for the express purpose of starting it?
No. I have connected a second fully charged battery with jump leads to battery in car, but that was before I worked out how to crank the starter. With the fuel gauge suddenly reading empty and the display saying F gal/h I thought we had agreed the fuel pump and gauge were lacking power.
Do you reckon it is worth my dipping the fuel tank to confirm there is fuel in it, and if there is: I should connect the battery of a second car, with engine running, to the battery of sick car, with SWMBO in sick car, in neutral, handbrake on, crank the engine for a minute or so, and see if it starts?
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How would a lack of fuel stop the motor from turning over? Gah........going round in circles. ::)
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How would a lack of fuel stop the motor from turning over? Gah........going round in circles. ::)
It wouldn't, but it would stop it starting.
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There's a fault on this car that you are not going to find by tapping relays, removing fuses and running wires. Someone who knows what they're doing needs to have a look, and I hope you haven't made it more difficult by adding faults.
You are out of your depth, Terry, leave it alone.
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
bump ::)
As said in reply66, starter works fine connecting solenoid terminals 12v live to solenoid activate, it cranks the engine, but ngine does not start.
Didn't answer the question.
Have you physically connected the battery on the car to the battery of a working car with jump leads for the express purpose of starting it?
No. I have connected a second fully charged battery with jump leads to battery in car, but that was before I worked out how to crank the starter. With the fuel gauge suddenly reading empty and the display saying F gal/h I thought we had agreed the fuel pump and gauge were lacking power.
Do you reckon it is worth my dipping the fuel tank to confirm there is fuel in it, and if there is: I should connect the battery of a second car, with engine running, to the battery of sick car, with SWMBO in sick car, in neutral, handbrake on, crank the engine for a minute or so, and see if it starts?
This is exactly what I suggested you do. Don't piss about trying to 'dip' the tank though. The gauge should work with reliable voltage applied to the car. Instructions to follow...
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1. Find a working car and jump leads. Ensure that the battery terminals are securely connected to the respective batteries.
2. Park the working car next to, BUT NOT TOUCHING, the broken one in such a way that the batteries are as close as possible... ie if the working car is the Omega, so that the nearside wing is next to the Vauxhall badge on the Vectra Grill.
3. With both cars off, connect the red lead to both positive terminals.
4. Connect the black lead to both negative terminals, starting with the working car.
5. Start the working car, and leave to idle. Then turn the headlights on.
6. Only now should you insert the key on the broken car.
Turn to position 1 and count to ten.
7. Turn the key to position 2 and count to ten.
8. Try cranking the broken car.
9. If it starts, allow both cars to idle for five minutes. Then with both cars idling, disconnect the leads in reverse order.
10. If it cranks but doesn't start, repeat 6/7/8.
If it doesn't crank, then you'll need to get someone to have a look at it.
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Have you tried jump starting it yet?
bump ::)
As said in reply66, starter works fine connecting solenoid terminals 12v live to solenoid activate, it cranks the engine, but ngine does not start.
Didn't answer the question.
Have you physically connected the battery on the car to the battery of a working car with jump leads for the express purpose of starting it?
No. I have connected a second fully charged battery with jump leads to battery in car, but that was before I worked out how to crank the starter. With the fuel gauge suddenly reading empty and the display saying F gal/h I thought we had agreed the fuel pump and gauge were lacking power.
Do you reckon it is worth my dipping the fuel tank to confirm there is fuel in it, and if there is: I should connect the battery of a second car, with engine running, to the battery of sick car, with SWMBO in sick car, in neutral, handbrake on, crank the engine for a minute or so, and see if it starts?
This is exactly what I suggested you do. Don't piss about trying to 'dip' the tank though. The gauge should work with reliable voltage applied to the car. Instructions to follow...
Thanks for all your help, Doc. I did most of that on day one, in that I put in a freshly charged battery, and when nothing happened, I jumped to it another larger, freshly charged battery. I put on the headlights. I turned the key, the engine did not crank, and the headlights did not dim.
I do not know a man who could help.
This job is not urgent. I had planned to leave the car until I could get a new Vx thermostat to throttle hose, as you suggested, but I got bored with the lockdown, so bought some Loctite EA9492 and reassembled the pipe, then the exhaust. Then I put back the battery, and the rest you know.
It gives me something to do in the lockdown, which could last till next summer. I believe everybody will eventually catch coronavirus, and that will sort me out.
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Doing most of it isn't the same thing. :-X
Read and follow the steps and report back.
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Doing most of it isn't the same thing. :-X
Read and follow the steps and report back.
I bow to your wisdom, Doc, so I'll give it a go. I reckon I'll get to no.8, and the engine will not crank.
I'd love to be proven wrong.
I'll report back.
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/q90j1y3i6qpzwzp/DN08testGROUP5cars.jpg?dl=1)
It took 10 minutes to organise the cars, ands 2 minutes to perform your test. I regret to report that engine did not crank. With sick Vectra headlights on, they did not dim on cranking attempt.
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Best get someone out to look at it then.
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Not in the least bit surprised, there was enough juice to crank the engine so the ECU and other bits would be ok.
So to summarise, the engine does not crank, if you bridge the starter solenoid, it cranks but does not fire.
It points at an inhibit somewhere.
So first thing, with ignition on, can you hear the fuel pump running for a short period of time?
Can you see if you are getting a spark with ignition on and bridging the starter solenoid to get the engine to crank?
Have you managed to get the diag kit to communicate yet?
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Not in the least bit surprised, there was enough juice to crank the engine so the ECU and other bits would be ok.
So to summarise, the engine does not crank, if you bridge the starter solenoid, it cranks but does not fire.
It points at an inhibit somewhere.
So first thing, with ignition on, can you hear the fuel pump running for a short period of time?
Can you see if you are getting a spark with ignition on and bridging the starter solenoid to get the engine to crank?
Have you managed to get the diag kit to communicate yet?
To check for a spark, I moved the car back over the pit, I removed the plug stick (or coilpack, whatever it's called), stuck two plugs in it and reconnected the connector. Wife walked into the garage. I opened the boot, to find the fuel pump, to listen for it; couldn't see it. Anyway, to show her what I wanted her to do, I turned the ignition key too far, and to my surprise the engine cranked. That surprised me! Also the fuel gauge showed the tank more than half full. I removed the plugs from the plug stick, replaced the plug stick on the plugs. I turned on the ignition 2 clicks. Fuel gauge again sprang to life and showed half full. I turned the key to crank and the engine started. After half a minute I left it idling and went indoors. After a minute I checked again. Engine was not running. I turned the ignition off and on again - fuel gauge now dead. Turned the key to crank - engine did not crank.
I wrote the above. I again removed the coil pack and inserted 2 plugs. I turned ignition two clicks; fuel gauge showed half full. I reported to wife, complaining the car was now mocking me.
I replaced the coil pack. Turned on ignition two clicks - fuel gauge showed half full. Switched off.
Waited 10 minutes - replaced key turned 2 clicks - fuel gauge half full.
Waited 10 minutes - replaced key turned 2 clicks = fuel gauge half full. Cranked starter, engine started, ran for a minute then stopped.
In answer to your questions, I have not yet heard the fuel pump, but now know it is beneath the rear seat cushion. I have not seen sparks, but there must be some. I have not yet any diagnostics, my diagnoser does not seem to work on this Vectra or my other Vectra, though it works fine on the 2006 Astra.
I will try again later, to see if it works without removal of the plug stick. I find this new data encouraging, and it must help.
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Right, can you try again to get fault codes read :y
If its in the scenario where it will fire, fuel gauge giving a reading, you should be able to get the DTCs
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Right, can you try again to get fault codes read :y
If its in the scenario where it will fire, fuel gauge giving a reading, you should be able to get the DTCs
I did try again with the cheapo reader, it seemed to get info, but said no codes stored. Car is currently 'dead' after the engine stop at 530 ish, now 6.01pm. Will try again.
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6.30pm. Put in key, turned 2 clicks, fuel gauge says half full.
Plugged in laptop diagnoser, ignition on, engine not running. Three codes came up:
P0014-63 unknown DTC
P0564-71 Cruise control interface malfunction
P0597-04 Coolant thermostat valve circuit open
When I bought the car the cruise control did not work, eventually fault traced to missing fuse FI 20
I have recently changed the thermostat housing and thermostat, that sounds the most likely troubls source, and maybe engine runs until coolant gets warm.
Please advise.
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camshaft position sensor P0014 or the other 2 codes would not stop it cranking
removing the coil pack allows it to crank is very odd
sounds like a short is occurring with the coil pack fitted that is bricking the ECM engine computer :-\
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Something pinched when rebuilding :-\
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There is a temperature sensor at the back of the thermostat holder with a 2 pin connector, held in by a spring clip. I changed it for a spare, and tried again. Engine started, but stopped after about half a minute, so I replaced the original sensor. There is also a temparature sensor with a 2 pin connector in the thermostat, again held in by a spring clip, but hard to remove and wired inside so not really changeable.
My laptop diagnoser gives live data. What could I usefully watch on it?
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P0014-63 is an interesting one as it relates to the camshaft phasing solenoid (usually exhaust - the front one)
Check the loom and it might be worth popping the solenoid out as the filters on them disintegrate, usual fix is to the remove the filters, clean the solenoid up, and refit.
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Something pinched when rebuilding :-\
Or maybe something plugged into the wrong socket. I did that on the Rover Streetwise after a head gasket change. There were two identical sockets at the LH end of the head accepting two identical plugs, which I naturally switched. Engine started and ran, but would not idle properly.
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More data.
At 1440 today, fuel pump still reading half full, I set a stop watch running and started the engine. It ran without hesitation until 1615, with fan cutting in occasionally at 93 degrees. At 1615 I stopped the engine, then restarted it successfully. I stopped and restarted it again. It seemed fine to me. I switched it off.
At 1800 I tried to start the engine, switched on, fuel gauge dead, engine would not start. At 2130 it is still dead.
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I got to about page 3 (no boobs :'( ) and thought IGNITION SWITCH.
Give the key a really good wiggle when turning the key.
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I got to about page 3 (no boobs :'( ) and thought IGNITION SWITCH.
Give the key a really good wiggle when turning the key.
Thanks. Will give it a try.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/yv4dwxys06m3frm/DN08TESTofLOCTITI%20EA9492.jpg?dl=1)
This morning I rolled the car out of the garage, no puddle, and header tank still up to the line. My thanks to Viral Jim, for his recommendation of Loctite EA9492 as an epoxy adhesive that might repair my broken coolant pipe. As a preliminary test, see above pic, I stuck a disc of rear bumper plastic to a plastic tube lying on my garage bench, following your instructions, and next day I popped it into a dish of boiling water, tried to pull it apart, failed, boiled it on and off all day, and could not pull it apart. Thus encouraged, I stuck the pipe to the thermostat holder. It has not failed yet.
At 730am I switched on ignition, and the fuel gauge said half full.
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I got to about page 3 (no boobs :'( ) and thought IGNITION SWITCH.
Give the key a really good wiggle when turning the key.
Yeah I suggested switch too, watching with interest
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/cm34hqzarbsfjwv/DN08RELAYS.jpg?dl=1)
Yesterday at 730am I switched on the ignition and the fuel gauge said half full. Since then checking every hour it has remained pretty dead, except on two occasions when the fuel gauge briefly sprang to life, only to die again within 30 seconds.
I thought it might be a relay, so I switched each relay in turn with the relays in Vectra estate YF57. Curiously the estate lacks the two black relays shown above at front and back, so I swopped them with each other. No joy, fuel gauge remained dead.
We are learning all the while things that are not the fault; I wonder what the fault is?
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At this stage ,it has to be worth trying the electrical ignition switch behind the barrel as a few people have said previously .
I've had a couple of duff switches in the past ,causing non cranking etc ,the switch was less than £10
I've also had a similar fault where the tip of the ignition barrel that goes into the ignition switch snapped off ,stopping it cranking but also stopping the power being turned off ,a new barrel with 2 keys was less than £10 but i had to put the transponder chip in the new key,that was on Astra G so ID40 chip ,easy to do
not familiar with what is inside a Vectra c key , maybe you will have to have the old and new key on the keyring for the transponder ring to read (IF it's the barrel) or take the barrel apart to fit the old tumblers ,so the old key works
but it is more likely to be the switch
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just looking for a replacement switch and it looks like part of the steering column module with indicators ,clock ring etc ,not just a simple switch like omega,astra g etc
and if it is , it's coded to the ECU ,so you can't just replace it
i will continue to look to see IF you can replace just the switch
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Looks like just the switch for Vectra c is not available from what i can see :-\ anyone ?
so tracing the wiring to see where the crank switched feed is lost may be an easier option
i'm not familiar with what is inside or how fixable this type of complete assembly is :-\
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/glEAAOSw4sxcbqhZ/s-l1600.jpg)
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With A N Other assembly, swapping mechanical components should be straightforward enough...
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well before part swapping :(
it may be an idea to give the key a wiggle etc to see IF the fault can be narrowed down to the CIM (column module)
also worth trying the other key and give that a wiggle too
even go as far as removing the barrel and check/clean/lube it
I mentioned SIM/CIM fails on vectra C in previous posts , i wonder if this no crank issue is one of the common CIM fails :-\
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well before part swapping :(
it may be an idea to give the key a wiggle etc to see IF the fault can be narrowed down to the CIM (column module)
also worth trying the other key and give that a wiggle too
even go as far as removing the barrel and check/clean/lube it
I mentioned SIM/CIM fails on vectra C in previous posts , i wonder if this no crank issue is one of the common CIM fails :-\
And don't forget a liberal squirt of magic WD40 about the place.
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well before part swapping :(
it may be an idea to give the key a wiggle etc to see IF the fault can be narrowed down to the CIM (column module)
also worth trying the other key and give that a wiggle too
even go as far as removing the barrel and check/clean/lube it
a more scientific method would be to disconnect the relevant multi-plug and use a multimeter to check the switch is working. That would then justify(or not) acquiring a replacement assembly.
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well before part swapping :(
it may be an idea to give the key a wiggle etc to see IF the fault can be narrowed down to the CIM (column module)
also worth trying the other key and give that a wiggle too
even go as far as removing the barrel and check/clean/lube it
a more scientific method would be to disconnect the relevant multi-plug and use a multimeter to check the switch is working. That would then justify(or not) acquiring a replacement assembly.
I did think that :)
but being a canbus module ,didn't know IF there was a high power contact switch or just can controlled to a relay elsewhere
i'm not familiar with Vec C at all
probably similar to astra H but not had any such electrical gremlin on the 4 astra H we have ,so not looked much at the wiring .
if Terry has a wiring diagram then tracing wiring ,or indeed jumping a start relay :-\ may help
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/o4ttgfc9v5nm3kb/DN08thermostatREPAiR.jpg?dl=1)
Thanks to all for advice. Fault is now traced and rectified.
Picture above shows the repair of the the pipe from thermostat to throttle box, using Loctite EA9492 high temperature epoxy adhesive, as recommended by Viral Jim. The adhesive is white.
I was perplexed that things improved after Marks DTM suggested I check for a spark at the plugs, while cranking engine by shorting solenoid lead to starter power lead. After removing the plug stick I turned the ignition key to crank; the engine cranked. After replacing the plug stick the engine started, ran briefly, then stopped. Removing plugstick got it going again, for as long as it felt like running, anything from 10 seconds to 90 minutes.
Today I tried unplugging the plugstick but not removing it. That got it going too, but not for long. With the ignition switched on, I tried wiggling the leads around the plugstick connector. As I did so, I heard clicks from the throttle box. I imagined a damaged lead in the harnesses. I wiggled each lead in turn, to locate a damaged lead. The guilty party was the cylinder head earth lead, which you see on the picture above to the left of the pipe repair. It was in place, but not quite tight. A quick tweak with a 10mm spanner, and all was well.
I keep starting it, now it's fine. Sounds unlikely, don't it?
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Glad you're sorted Terry. :y
I'd love to know where you found the word 'plugstick' to describe a coil pack! ???
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Glad you're sorted Terry. :y
I'd love to know where you found the word 'plugstick' to describe a coil pack! ???
Well.....it's a stick with a spark plug on the end of it.....kind of ;D
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Well done :y
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Glad you're sorted Terry. :y
I'd love to know where you found the word 'plugstick' to describe a coil pack! ???
I've heard that term used in RC Cars/Planes etc. to describe the battery pack with leads coming out and a multi-plug on the end. Power Pack Stick, Battery Pack Stick, Plug Stick or Stick Plug are some of the names they go under, so there is a sort of logic. ;D
Absolutely nothing to do with coil packs though. ;D
Anyway, glad your perseverance paid off Terry. Well done. :y
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Happy to report that V828 still starts first time every attempt, so I am confident my elusive fault was indeed the loose cylinder head earth lead. I am still puzzled that a loose earth lead could inhibit the starter cranking, or stop the running engine, without leaving a fault code.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1a9zdb58gsya7zm/V828coilPACK.jpg?dl=1)
Above pic shows the engine of my last remaining Omega, a 2000 minifacelift 2.5 petrol manual estate. I bought this car in 2015, in Clacton, for £259. The owner told me he was in Portugal, with his family, living in a caravan, and needed a vehicle to tow the caravan home. He found this car, and had a local garage get it going. It came with some novel repairs, including the location of the coilpack, rear doors with windows that would not open, a blowing exhaust, and worst of all, a leaking clutch slave cylinder. Its merit was lack of rust.
I had spare rear doors in the right colour, and a spare estate exhaust system. This car's MOT was due on 24th April, but is extended due to the coronavirus. It has a blowing LH exhaust manifold.
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It is pretty much impossible to put a system in place that detects loss of a ground connection and reports a trouble code associated with it :y
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It is pretty much impossible to put a system in place that detects loss of a ground connection and reports a trouble code associated with it :y
Thank you. That leads me to wonder whether, had I got a man in to sort this car out, as suggested by DG and STEMO, he would have fared any better. I imagined that a Vauxhall dealer 'expert', with a superior diagnostic device, could simply plug it in and read out the fault.
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It is pretty much impossible to put a system in place that detects loss of a ground connection and reports a trouble code associated with it :y
Thank you. That leads me to wonder whether, had I got a man in to sort this car out, as suggested by DG and STEMO, he would have fared any better. I imagined that a Vauxhall dealer 'expert', with a superior diagnostic device, could simply plug it in and read out the fault.
Ah yes, a common misconception.
There is no diag kit on the planet that can tell you what the fault is, it can only tell you the symptoms :y
It requires a level of care and thought to analyse the symptoms, carry out checks and determine the fault.....
.......and there in lies the problem, mechanics have little understanding of the systems and hence, if its not been seen before or is obvious........willy nilly part changing occurs and the bills sky rocket.