Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: fcc-pt on 24 August 2020, 16:24:42
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I'm sorry for the lame question but this is my first attempt to do something like resurface both heads of X30XE.
I wonder if I still need a lock set once I'll remove both heads for resurface?
I'm almost sure I don't since I can always synchronize engine by using crankshaft big end pulley / oil pump marks and camshaft pulley marks right?!? ???
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I'm sorry for the lame question but this is my first attempt to do something like resurface both heads of X30XE.
I wonder if I still need a lock set once I'll remove both heads for resurface?
I'm almost sure I don't since I can always synchronize engine by using crankshaft big end pulley / oil pump marks and camshaft pulley marks right?!? ???
None of those marks are accurate enough to get the timing anywhere other than 'close'
You need the whole set to get the timing right. Using it is also much easier than trying to get by without it.
I found that my engine was a tooth out on all four cams. There were tippex makes on every pulley, so I suspect that it was done without the tools - one mechanic I worked with was proud of the fact that he had never used any timing tool :o Fitting the new belt correctly improved performance, comfort(it ran noticeably smoother) and economy - the 3MPG improvement would have easily covered the £40 I paid for the timing set.
Be aware that there isn't a lot of material to remove from the head surfaces, and that you need to check that the inlet manifolds and plenum will still fit.
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Ok I totally get it!
But, what if I need to replace crankshaft bearings?
I'll need the lock set as well right?!? And probably some kind of dial indicator for TDC?!?
Supposing I will need to make use of lock tools and marks and check if TDC is correct?!?
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Ok I totally get it!
But, what if I need to replace crankshaft bearings?
I'll need the lock set as well right?!? And probably some kind of dial indicator for TDC?!?
Supposing I will need to make use of lock tools and marks and check if TDC is correct?!?
Changing the crankshaft bearings has nothing to do with the camshafts! It's basic engine rebuilding. Assemble the short block, bolt on the heads, and install then valve train. Then, you need the timing tools to fit the timing belt.
The crank lock that's part of the timing set is indexed by the bolt holes in the pulley that is indexed by the key in the front of the crank. No DTI is needed. I've used a DTI twice to check TDC, and both times were to dial in performance cams: one(Pinto) had an adjustable pulley which was easy, and the other(2.9 Ford) was a stock gear that was a lot fiddlier.
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What makes me a lot of confusion is how to get the engine on the right time on a complete rebuild!
What if I take the whole engine apart and machine shop with it (engine block, crankshaft, heads etc.)?
So now, I need to put everything back and time the engine to factory params but if I can't guide myself by the engine marks how do I do it?
Do I need to set crankshaft in some position?
Here is where I think I have to get the TDC for cylinder 1 and from there lock the engine right?
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What makes me a lot of confusion is how to get the engine on the right time on a complete rebuild!
What if I take the whole engine apart and machine shop with it (engine block, crankshaft, heads etc.)?
So now, I need to put everything back and time the engine to factory params but if I can't guide myself by the engine marks how do I do it?
Do I need to set crankshaft in some position?
Here is where I think I have to get the TDC for cylinder 1 and from there lock the engine right?
Unless you've managed to move the centreline of any of the shafts(which would cause all sorts of horrific mechanical problems), the marks on the engine for the crank and each camshaft already give you the basic positions you want.
Assemble the engine until you're ready to fit the timing belt, and align the crank to TDC with the marks on the pulley and front cover.
You then turn the crank back 60degrees to give valve to piston clearance, next you use the cam gauge to align each pair of cams in turn and fit their respective locks, and finally fit the crank lock and rotate the crank into position. Doing this aligns everything, and any amount you machined off the block/heads is accommodated by the adjustments in the belt eccentrics.
Opel's way of setting the cam timing is very German, but it does work. Honda's Vtec quad-cam V6s use a mark on the crankshaft, and a 6mm pin through each campulley into the head to give both alignment and locking. This is much simpler and doesn't lead to this thread's sort of over thinking.
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Do I need check the TDC with a gauge indicator or crankshaft pinion / oil pump marks are fine?
Don't get why do I need turn the crank back 60degrees?
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Do I need check the TDC with a gauge indicator or crankshaft pinion / oil pump marks are fine?
Don't get why do I need turn the crank back 60degrees?
you don't need to know TDC to that level of accuracy! Oil pump mark is fine.
Most people start with a short-block(block, crank, pistons, sump, front cover etc) set to TDC. Once you start turning the cams on a V6 at TDC, some of the valves could clip a piston. Turning it back puts all six pistons down the bore, and is safe for you to manipulate the cams as necessary. Then you fit the crank lock, turn so it's engaged and start fitting the belt.
Dial indicators are used for setting up performance cams, they're rarely necessary on stock ones
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All the six at a time with only 60 degree ccw? Never thought about that :y I'm thinking that lack of TDC accuracy can lead to bad timing which by its tune increase fuel consumption, unpleasant ride etc.
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next you use the cam gauge to align each pair of cams
How is that done? Can't i use the marks instead and lock both cams before fit the timing belt?
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And risk locking the cams out of time?
I would have suggested buying the dvd and watching it, but that is not currently an option. :-\
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And risk locking the cams out of time?
I would have suggested buying the dvd and watching it, but that is not currently an option. :-\
I would gladly get it... but since it's not available I need your help ;D
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I bet my balls that the vast majority of mechanics align everything by the marks :D
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It looks I was right this guy is using engine marks on a very similar if not the same engine!
https://youtu.be/DFWtovLxE4Y
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And risk locking the cams out of time?
I would have suggested buying the dvd and watching it, but that is not currently an option. :-\
I see how the cam gauge is used ;)
https://youtu.be/DFWtovLxE4Y?t=727
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Knock yourself out and report back.
Those yellow marks are an approximation for basic assembly.
Timing tools are required to accurately check and set the timing.
The difference between not running and running is three cam pulley teeth. The difference between running and running spot on is a quarter cam pulley tooth and not possible to accurately assess by eye using the assembly marks. ;)
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Do not attempt to time up the engine/cams without the locking kit.
If you have one the Haynes manual is a handy reference guide.
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I bet my balls that the vast majority of mechanics align everything by the marks :D
Many do, including whoever fitted the timing belt to my car. There were Tippex marks on all five pulleys, none of which lined up with anything! On fitting the timing tools, it was a tooth out on all four cams, probably caused by not turning the engine through and tweaking the timing. That's unforgivable because it's a basic step in fitting any timing belt/chain. I thought it was smooth and powerful but it got a lot better, and more economical, when correctly timed. All the extra marks lined up too!
Now you've watched it done with the correct tools you can see why it so much easier to do, let alone do correctly, with the tools - you don't have enough hands to hold the various springy parts to get the belt on.
If each pair of pulleys is correctly aligned(you check with the crank lock and gauge before removing the belt), the cam locks slip into place. If the engine is timed correctly, it will still be correct next time the belt is due for replacement.
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I bet my balls that the vast majority of mechanics align everything by the marks :D
Many do, including whoever fitted the timing belt to my car. There were Tippex marks on all five pulleys, none of which lined up with anything! On fitting the timing tools, it was a tooth out on all four cams, probably caused by not turning the engine through and tweaking the timing. That's unforgivable because it's a basic step in fitting any timing belt/chain. I thought it was smooth and powerful but it got a lot better, and more economical, when correctly timed. All the extra marks lined up too!
Now you've watched it done with the correct tools you can see why it so much easier to do, let alone do correctly, with the tools - you don't have enough hands to hold the various springy parts to get the belt on.
If each pair of pulleys is correctly aligned(you check with the crank lock and gauge before removing the belt), the cam locks slip into place. If the engine is timed correctly, it will still be correct next time the belt is due for replacement.
Ordering the timing tool kit... it's the right thing to do it seems pretty simple!
Ok, so the timing tool kit it's the right way to time the engine after machine shop both heads right?
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Ordering the timing tool kit... it's the right thing to do it seems pretty simple!
Ok, so the timing tool kit it's the right way to time the engine after machine shop both heads right?
Once again, how would machining the head surfaces affect the cam timing when the tension of all three runs of the belt is adjustable? As long as the keys and keyways that align the pulleys to the shafts are good(and that's all they do, they don't provide the drive), you're done.
The only way the tools would no longer work is if you move each pair of cams closer together, or fit offset bearings to move the crank around. And nobody is going to do either of those!
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I'm pretty sure that valves and hydraulic tappets will be replaced or machined and for that you need to remove the camshafts!
How do I know that both camshafts are properly fitted and aligned?
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I'm pretty sure that valves and hydraulic tappets will be replaced or machined and for that you need to remove the camshafts!
How do I know that both camshafts are properly fitted and aligned?
You did mark each cam before removing them? Although they might all be the same, marking them saves so much hassle
They only go in one way!
Tighten the caps down evenly, and use a torque wrench as they're only small bolts into aluminium.
The pulleys are numbered, and keyed to the cam. That's what making the timing marks work.
If you can cock up fitting any of these parts, then you really shouldn't be getting so deep into engines....
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I'm pretty sure that valves and hydraulic tappets will be replaced or machined and for that you need to remove the camshafts!
How do I know that both camshafts are properly fitted and aligned?
You did mark each cam before removing them? Although they might all be the same, marking them saves so much hassle
They only go in one way!
Tighten the caps down evenly, and use a torque wrench as they're only small bolts into aluminium.
The pulleys are numbered, and keyed to the cam. That's what making the timing marks work.
If you can cock up fitting any of these parts, then you really shouldn't be getting so deep into engines....
I know that camshaft pulleys are numbered from left to right 1/2 3/4 and they can be interchanged like 2/1 and 4/3 as long as you use the correct marks etc.
My question was more about the pulley rotation position, are you stating that I should mark the pulleys rotation position before remove the heads?
I guess I could simply use the cam gauge after refit the heads and lock them!
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I know that camshaft pulleys are numbered from left to right 1/2 3/4 and they can be interchanged like 2/1 and 4/3 as long as you use the correct marks etc.
My question was more about the pulley rotation position, are you stating that I should mark the pulleys rotation position before remove the heads?
I guess I could simply use the cam gauge after refit the heads and lock them!
? ? ? ? ? ???
The pulleys are keyed to the cams.
You can't fit them wrong.
You do need to use the correct mark for each numbered cam when fitting the cam locks. But they're already numbered.
Stop typing, and line all the parts up on the bench. It will make a lot more sense!
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Reading this, you need to get someone to assist you, who knows what they are doing. And go here and buy book
https://haynes.com/en-gb/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrCNyJXC6wIVhu7tCh1K5AgOEAAYASAAEgKl8PD_BwE
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Reading this, you need to get someone to assist you, who knows what they are doing. And go here and buy book
https://haynes.com/en-gb/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgrCNyJXC6wIVhu7tCh1K5AgOEAAYASAAEgKl8PD_BwE
That would be awesome except I don't know that person yet!
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I know that camshaft pulleys are numbered from left to right 1/2 3/4 and they can be interchanged like 2/1 and 4/3 as long as you use the correct marks etc.
My question was more about the pulley rotation position, are you stating that I should mark the pulleys rotation position before remove the heads?
I guess I could simply use the cam gauge after refit the heads and lock them!
? ? ? ? ? ???
The pulleys are keyed to the cams.
You can't fit them wrong.
You do need to use the correct mark for each numbered cam when fitting the cam locks. But they're already numbered.
Stop typing, and line all the parts up on the bench. It will make a lot more sense!
Afaik you can mess up with pulley's since they aren't locked to a specific camshaft that's the reason they have two Marks.