Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: humbucker on 12 August 2008, 14:22:04
-
hi all. Im thinkin of gettin hold of a cav as a 2nd motor and project car. Initially i was lookin at gsi's which have c20xe units but have recently seen some gls stunners with ecotec x20xe units which i could play with. So after pros and cons from experts!
-
i read that c20xe are some of the best vx engines but wanted some opinions on the x20xe in particular as i would likely get one in better nick with that unit than the former. Anything to watch out for in particular? I realise this isnt omega advice as such so realise post might be in wrong place ::)
-
Moving
-
C20XE is the engine of choice for tuning but getting a bit long in the tooth now. Very popular in kit car circles and can make 170 BHP plus on throttle bodies / carbs without internal modification. I have seen a breathed-on one with steel internals but still NA make over 300. The heads tend to go porous and leak oil into the coolant but it's not a difficult fix in most cases.
Much less following for the x20xe. I can't recall ever seeing one in a kit car. Not analysed the differences but I suspect it's smaller valves and ports, longer stroke and smaller bore. Makes tuning very costly.
There is a 1.6 "Ecotec" which is becoming quite popular amongst tuners nowadays.
Kevin
-
c20xe is one of the best engines vauxhall have ever made bud ! if you can get a good late sri with the c20xe in brillant cars ! :y
-
I've seen C20XE's running 200+ NA, without Throttle boddies :o
I believe even the C20XE boys refer to the X20XE as the "ECO-REC" ;D
-
C20XE is the engine of choice for tuning but getting a bit long in the tooth now. Very popular in kit car circles and can make 170 BHP plus on throttle bodies / carbs without internal modification. I have seen a breathed-on one with steel internals but still NA make over 300. The heads tend to go porous and leak oil into the coolant but it's not a difficult fix in most cases.
Much less following for the x20xe. I can't recall ever seeing one in a kit car. Not analysed the differences but I suspect it's smaller valves and ports, longer stroke and smaller bore. Makes tuning very costly.
There is a 1.6 "Ecotec" which is becoming quite popular amongst tuners nowadays.
Kevin
Same 86mm bore and stroke
-
I've seen C20XE's running 200+ NA, without Throttle boddies :o
I believe even the C20XE boys refer to the X20XE as the "ECO-REC" ;D
I quite like the Ecotecs - especially in correct V formation
-
Likewise.......im not a 4-pot boy meself ;)
-
Just so I can chip in with coversations at work, what is the code for a "red-top"? Always comes up in chat involving 200 bhp+
-
C20XE is the engine of choice for tuning but getting a bit long in the tooth now. Very popular in kit car circles and can make 170 BHP plus on throttle bodies / carbs without internal modification. I have seen a breathed-on one with steel internals but still NA make over 300. The heads tend to go porous and leak oil into the coolant but it's not a difficult fix in most cases.
Much less following for the x20xe. I can't recall ever seeing one in a kit car. Not analysed the differences but I suspect it's smaller valves and ports, longer stroke and smaller bore. Makes tuning very costly.
There is a 1.6 "Ecotec" which is becoming quite popular amongst tuners nowadays.
Kevin
Same 86mm bore and stroke
I suspect the valves and ports are probably a bit smaller on the Ecotec then? (improves emissions and economy) Meaning you've got to do a bit of expensive work before any power gains.
Kevin
-
if im honest, tuning isnt something im that worried about at the moment; i wanted something that was going to be reliable, good on standard performance, and able to eat the miles. the ecotec in the omega is fantastic, and while i realise thats an x30xe i wondered if the x20xe was going to be as good.
the c20xe looks like the motor of choice IF theres one available, but tbh so far all ive found are dogs, and the x20xe models (like a later gls for instance) are out there with 55k on the clock. sri's and gsi's are nice thoughts, but if they havent been modded already or hammered then the bodyworks shot. ideally i'd like something standard which i know hasnt been toyed with.
are there noticable differences in power between a c20xe and an x20xe? they're both 2litre units pulling the same body weight after all??
-
Just so I can chip in with coversations at work, what is the code for a "red-top"? Always comes up in chat involving 200 bhp+
c20xe is know as the redtop as found in cavvy gsi astra gsi calibra 16v and later cavvy sri :y
-
if im honest, tuning isnt something im that worried about at the moment; i wanted something that was going to be reliable, good on standard performance, and able to eat the miles. the ecotec in the omega is fantastic, and while i realise thats an x30xe i wondered if the x20xe was going to be as good.
the c20xe looks like the motor of choice IF theres one available, but tbh so far all ive found are dogs, and the x20xe models (like a later gls for instance) are out there with 55k on the clock. sri's and gsi's are nice thoughts, but if they havent been modded already or hammered then the bodyworks shot. ideally i'd like something standard which i know hasnt been toyed with.
are there noticable differences in power between a c20xe and an x20xe? they're both 2litre units pulling the same body weight after all??
its like the difference between the 2.5 and the 3.0 matey ! c20xe is 150bhp and the x20xe is 125bhp ish ! most c20xe produce slighlt more than book power :y
-
Just so I can chip in with coversations at work, what is the code for a "red-top"? Always comes up in chat involving 200 bhp+
c20xe is know as the redtop as found in cavvy gsi astra gsi calibra 16v and later cavvy sri :y
has bright red L shape spark plug cover :)
-
next door neighbour has a lotus europa which looks like it has an x20xe in it. i guess i just wondered about reliability etc as i know that the later cavs and calibras were all fitted with these as opposed to c20xe
-
next door neighbour has a lotus europa which looks like it has an x20xe in it. i guess i just wondered about reliability etc as i know that the later cavs and calibras were all fitted with these as opposed to c20xe
they only changed them for emmisions laws >:(
-
X20XEV is 136bhp AFAIR
Same valve sizes as the 2.5 and 3.0 though!
You can fit the older head or port the X20XEV head
-
X20XEV is 136bhp AFAIR
Same valve sizes as the 2.5 and 3.0 though!
You can fit the older head or port the X20XEV head
iirc the early astra gsi with the blacktop was booked at 125bhp and the cavvys think they upped it in vectras and omegas :-/
-
X20XEV is 136bhp AFAIR
Same valve sizes as the 2.5 and 3.0 though!
You can fit the older head or port the X20XEV head
one of the motors i'd seen had a x20xev. is this a different unit to the x20xe then? any 'look out for this' over and above the usual stuff?
hoped that this unit would be quite pokey pre mods, and that at a later stage i could maybe tinker with it if i cant get a decent c20xe
-
X20XEV is the model number of the Ecotec 2.0 - well it is in the Omega
-
X20XEV is the model number of the Ecotec 2.0 - well it is in the Omega
ok that makes sense then, i might have been confusing myself. i definitely recall x20xev on a couple of service books.
-
even today the 2.0XE or C2.0XE is an engine that will hold its own.....
common issues include porus heads, this can be fixed and i can't imagine that there are many out there today that have not been repaired.
There were two types of cylinder head put on these engine Coscast (cosworth cast) and GMcast, its the GM ones that give the problems.
If an engine has a Coscast head then they are worth more, purely because the oilways were better and didn't go porus, there are all sorts of wives tales about then having higher lift cams and different valves, that's all rubbish.
Out of the box they produced either 148 bhp (C2.0XE) or 150bhp (2.0XE), up to the early 90's they had a distributor of sorts, from there they went to dispacks, no difference in BHP.
It really is an engine that loves to be revved, with the right gearbox in it you can hit 60 in second, 90 in third and over 120 in fourth :y
The X2.0XEV was it's poorer relative, less power, not really built for performance, had a bit of a reputation for using oil and had a lot of sensors on them that gave trouble.
If you were to get a XEV bottom end and lob a XE top end on you would not get 150 bhp, the pistons were slightly deeper dished.
-
Am I correct in recalling that Cosworth did the heads and manifolds for the C20XE, while Lotus did the manifolds for the more emmision friendly X20XE??
-
Am I correct in recalling that Cosworth did the heads and manifolds for the C20XE, while Lotus did the manifolds for the more emmision friendly X20XE??
on the earlier c20xe units cosworth supplied the coscraft head which had the oil and water channels futher apart thus reducing the likelyhood of 'porous head'. theyre the head of choice if you can get one. after this the later ones were gm heads made by karl someone or another in germany, not the best regarded addition to the engine bay!
-
ive seen an ecotec x20xev with only 55k on a mint 1995 body. im wondering if its worth pursuing as a good reliable but quick motor as my 2nd car (maybe even the every day car depending on running costs) and consider an c20xe switchover at a later day if i could find a good condition unit. im not that bothered about modding the unit to begin with, thats not the primary concern, but a 55k x20xev might be a better choice than a 130k c20xe thats attached to a motor with a less than perfect body?? whatcha think?? also, would a switchover be simple enough or more to consider?
-
next door neighbour has a lotus europa which looks like it has an x20xe in it. i guess i just wondered about reliability etc as i know that the later cavs and calibras were all fitted with these as opposed to c20xe
He's not called Steve, is he? I know a chap with a C20XE powered Europa in the Cambridge area..... :-?
Kevin
-
next door neighbour has a lotus europa which looks like it has an x20xe in it. i guess i just wondered about reliability etc as i know that the later cavs and calibras were all fitted with these as opposed to c20xe
He's not called Steve, is he? I know a chap with a C20XE powered Europa in the Cambridge area..... :-?
Kevin
he might be known as 'steve' in some circles, but not down this way... ;D
this is an x20xe europa i think anyway
-
I had am L plate cavalier SRi16V with the Xe engine. revved much higher than the ecotec thing that replaced it. Best car I owned upto that time. Shame i stuffed it leaving the A38 sideways at 90 odd.
I also had a Gls 16V with the Xev, not the same. Had probe with the egr system & got rid due to dealer incompitance.
If you can find a red top that has not been to mars back & unmodified with the coscast head go for it. They do come up on ebay from time to time, also seen on autotrader. But as some have mentioned boy racers still hunt for them.
-
next door neighbour has a lotus europa which looks like it has an x20xe in it. i guess i just wondered about reliability etc as i know that the later cavs and calibras were all fitted with these as opposed to c20xe
He's not called Steve, is he? I know a chap with a C20XE powered Europa in the Cambridge area..... :-?
Kevin
he might be known as 'steve' in some circles, but not down this way... ;D
this is an x20xe europa i think anyway
You'd know if you lived next door to this guy. And I'd feel for you. ;) His coffee table in the lounge is a kit car chassis.
Kevin
-
Just been reading a guide, so I thought I'd post the details up on here incase anyone's interested
The first digit of the code relates to the emissions regs the engine meets.
Z = euro 4
Y = euro 3
X = euro 2
C = euro 1
Cars made before the emissions regulations have no letter at the start of the code.
The next 2 digits are the capacity.
For example, the 20 in C20 XE means 2 litre.
The next letter is the compression ratio.
G = 8 to 8.5:1
L = 8.5 to 9:1
N = 9 to 9.5:1
S = 9.5 to 10:1
X = 10 to 11.5:1
Y = 11.5+:1
The next digit relates to the fuelling.
D = diesel
E = multi-point injection
Z = single-point injection
V = carburettor
Some engines have an extra code at the end, if they are different from normal
For example:
H = high output
R = increase output
T = turbo
V = volume model
-
Just been reading a guide, so I thought I'd post the details up on here incase anyone's interested
The first digit of the code relates to the emissions regs the engine meets.
Z = euro 4
Y = euro 3
X = euro 2
C = euro 1
Cars made before the emissions regulations have no letter at the start of the code.
The next 2 digits are the capacity.
For example, the 20 in C20 XE means 2 litre.
The next letter is the compression ratio.
G = 8 to 8.5:1
L = 8.5 to 9:1
N = 9 to 9.5:1
S = 9.5 to 10:1
X = 10 to 11.5:1
Y = 11.5+:1
The next digit relates to the fuelling.
D = diesel
E = multi-point injection
Z = single-point injection
V = carburettor
Some engines have an extra code at the end, if they are different from normal
For example:
H = high output
R = increase output
T = turbo
V = volume model
ah ha explains a lot cheers Kris :y
-
i've also seen a couple of good example cav 2.5 v6s. was hoping to move away from a v6 really, got the x30xe in the elite and could do with an engine that was easier to work on. and cheaper to run...
-
Am I correct in recalling that Cosworth did the heads and manifolds for the C20XE, while Lotus did the manifolds for the more emmision friendly X20XE??
on the earlier c20xe units cosworth supplied the coscraft head which had the oil and water channels futher apart thus reducing the likelyhood of 'porous head'. theyre the head of choice if you can get one. after this the later ones were gm heads made by karl someone or another in germany, not the best regarded addition to the engine bay!
not quite the case......
GM took castings from Cosworth, however they were not very good casting and the oilway was out of spec, this meant that there was not a lot of metal between the oil and waterway.
It is possible to sleeve the il and waterway, this allows the head to be reused, a GM head that has been sleeved is in every way as good as a coscast head in terms of reliability.
People have used the 'Cosworth' name to inflate the price........badge marketing at its best
-
after all that i went and bought a c25xe instead....!!
picking it up next week, but bought a 1994 cavalier cdx saloon, diamond black c25xe redtop v6, really good condition, low miles (a shade over 100k), one owner from new(!), all the toys, heated leather, a/c, abs, t/c, electric everything, totally standard except for koni adjustable shocks and eibach lowering springs complimented by some 17" wheels. looking forward to playing about with her.
was trying to veer away from another v6 but when i saw this one and the condition she's in i changed my mind. besides, all the c20xe's ive checked out look like theyre on their last legs!
so another vx v6. does this qualify as a fleet?! if anyone's interested i'll pop some pics up at some point.
-
after all that i went and bought a c25xe instead....!!
picking it up next week, but bought a 1994 cavalier cdx saloon, diamond black c25xe redtop v6, really good condition, low miles (a shade over 100k), one owner from new(!), all the toys, heated leather, a/c, abs, t/c, electric everything, totally standard except for koni adjustable shocks and eibach lowering springs complimented by some 17" wheels. looking forward to playing about with her.
was trying to veer away from another v6 but when i saw this one and the condition she's in i changed my mind. besides, all the c20xe's ive checked out look like theyre on their last legs!
so another vx v6. does this qualify as a fleet?! if anyone's interested i'll pop some pics up at some point.
Not quite, there is no V6 redtop (just the cover sticker may be red but not redtop as in the meaning of C20XE redtop).
Cavalier V6 is a fantastic car :y so understated in looks but v6 really feels alive in the light Cavalier body, much like the Calibra.
-
after all that i went and bought a c25xe instead....!!
picking it up next week, but bought a 1994 cavalier cdx saloon, diamond black c25xe redtop v6, really good condition, low miles (a shade over 100k), one owner from new(!), all the toys, heated leather, a/c, abs, t/c, electric everything, totally standard except for koni adjustable shocks and eibach lowering springs complimented by some 17" wheels. looking forward to playing about with her.
was trying to veer away from another v6 but when i saw this one and the condition she's in i changed my mind. besides, all the c20xe's ive checked out look like theyre on their last legs!
so another vx v6. does this qualify as a fleet?! if anyone's interested i'll pop some pics up at some point.
Not quite, there is no V6 redtop (just the cover sticker may be red but not redtop as in the meaning of C20XE redtop).
Cavalier V6 is a fantastic car :y so understated in looks but v6 really feels alive in the light Cavalier body, much like the Calibra.
aye its not a redtop per se but the version of the 2.5 V6 with the red lid :D
trying to source a matching gsi bodykit atm, colour matched gsi grille arrived this morning and also sourced a gsi splitter. ripped a cd changer and head unit out of an omega elite to fit into it so that at least theres a half decent stereo in there but will no doubt be playing about with her once she's here.
ha, must be running out of things to fix on the omega ;D
you're right about power though, all that engine in half the bodyweight of the omega, she will fly, and while the c25xe probably isnt the best engine to play about with im sure i can find an extra few bhp from somewhere...
-
Enlarged throttle body and lightened flywheel (you lose the engine braking effect though!)
-
Enlarged throttle body and lightened flywheel (you lose the engine braking effect though!)
you speak from experience?!
-
Nope, but all the Cavalier / Calibra and Vectra boys seem to do these mods.
One of the chaps who worked at the Ellesmere Port V6 factory on all aspects of the V6 for the 9 years of production told me that he tried a Vectra B with a 3.0 conversion and lightened flywheel and it was the fastest accelerating V6 he'd been in, the only downside was that the engine braking when changing down was vastly reduced.
Oh and another good mod would be 3.0 cams (G I think).
All depends how much you want to spend. If it was me i'd probably keep it pretty much standard if it was a second car..... famous last words!!!
Then again...
Cavalier Turbo bodykit :y
Cavalier / Calibra Turbo Alloys :y
Leather seats :y
Oh no, you've started me thinking!!!! ::)
-
Nope, but all the Cavalier / Calibra and Vectra boys seem to do these mods.
One of the chaps who worked at the Ellesmere Port V6 factory on all aspects of the V6 for the 9 years of production told me that he tried a Vectra B with a 3.0 conversion and lightened flywheel and it was the fastest accelerating V6 he'd been in, the only downside was that the engine braking when changing down was vastly reduced.
Oh and another good mod would be 3.0 cams (G I think).
All depends how much you want to spend. If it was me i'd probably keep it pretty much standard if it was a second car..... famous last words!!!
Then again...
Cavalier Turbo bodykit :y
Cavalier / Calibra Turbo Alloys :y
Leather seats :y
Oh no, you've started me thinking!!!! ::)
picked her up saturday. black cdx 2.5i 24v V6 L-reg, c25xe engine with red lid, full leather, full electrics, every option ticked, powerflow stainless system, interior immaculate, leather looks like its never been sat in apart from slight wear on drivers bolster, irmscher boot spoiler, koni adjustable shocks and eibach springs lowered 40mm, 17" 5 stud 5 spoke alloys, full vxsh, aircon, abs, tc, alarm, immobiliser, a shade over 100k on clock (nothing for these engines, especially for a 14 year old car), ONE OWNER FROM NEW(!), new fuel tank, new radiator, years MOT, new alternator, new windscreen, tyres look like brand new AND original CDX alloys with new tyres thrown in as well. cambelt doesnt need doin for a while. the list goes on. i am stoked. properly stoked. body is in great shape too.
she's only done 10k miles over the last three years and averaged 8k a year from new so under the bonnet seems to be in tip top condition as far as i can tell. i'm sure some snags will appear over the coming weeks but nothing that raises alarm bells.
going to apply a few mods and bits to play about with, but overall i'm dead chuffed. she flies too, and mrs ilovemyelite doesnt mind finding her lead foot either hehehe
-
Nope, but all the Cavalier / Calibra and Vectra boys seem to do these mods.
One of the chaps who worked at the Ellesmere Port V6 factory on all aspects of the V6 for the 9 years of production told me that he tried a Vectra B with a 3.0 conversion and lightened flywheel and it was the fastest accelerating V6 he'd been in, the only downside was that the engine braking when changing down was vastly reduced.
Oh and another good mod would be 3.0 cams (G I think).
All depends how much you want to spend. If it was me i'd probably keep it pretty much standard if it was a second car..... famous last words!!!
Then again...
Cavalier Turbo bodykit :y
Cavalier / Calibra Turbo Alloys :y
Leather seats :y
Oh no, you've started me thinking!!!! ::)
picked her up saturday. black cdx 2.5i 24v V6 L-reg, c25xe engine with red lid, full leather, full electrics, every option ticked, powerflow stainless system, interior immaculate, leather looks like its never been sat in apart from slight wear on drivers bolster, irmscher boot spoiler, koni adjustable shocks and eibach springs lowered 40mm, 17" 5 stud 5 spoke alloys, full vxsh, aircon, abs, tc, alarm, immobiliser, a shade over 100k on clock (nothing for these engines, especially for a 14 year old car), ONE OWNER FROM NEW(!), new fuel tank, new radiator, years MOT, new alternator, new windscreen, tyres look like brand new AND original CDX alloys with new tyres thrown in as well. cambelt doesnt need doin for a while. the list goes on. i am stoked. properly stoked. body is in great shape too.
she's only done 10k miles over the last three years and averaged 8k a year from new so under the bonnet seems to be in tip top condition as far as i can tell. i'm sure some snags will appear over the coming weeks but nothing that raises alarm bells.
going to apply a few mods and bits to play about with, but overall i'm dead chuffed. she flies too, and mrs ilovemyelite doesnt mind finding her lead foot either hehehe
Nice one matey, get some piccies in the gallery. :y :y :y :y
-
as has already been said, the common mods on these are the G spec 3.0 cams, 2.0 XE flywheel (2/3rds the weight of the original) ported throttle body and a 4 bar adjustable pressure reg that has been set up for the engine on a dyno.
That coupled with a chip, decat and performance exhaust and pipercross viper induction system will see the other side of 200 bhp, possibly even 210 if set up really well......trust me :y
-
Blimey!
That's a seriously good find! :y
-
as has already been said, the common mods on these are the G spec 3.0 cams, 2.0 XE flywheel (2/3rds the weight of the original) ported throttle body and a 4 bar adjustable pressure reg that has been set up for the engine on a dyno.
That coupled with a chip, decat and performance exhaust and pipercross viper induction system will see the other side of 200 bhp, possibly even 210 if set up really well......trust me :y
i'll think about engine mods at some point when i've had her running for a while, work out if anything needs fixing first. in the meantime today i took delivery of a matching colour gsi rear bumper, side skirts, door panels etc, debadged gsi front grille and gsi boot spoiler. oh and some colour coded vectra door handles to replace the black plastic ones. on the look out for a matching colour gsi / turbo front bumper now and got some turbo smoked rear lights on the way. whoo hoo! i should point out i'm not going to chav her up, just some tasteful mods!!
going to give her a proper clean too as she had cobwebs on her when i picked her up. probably didnt know what hit her; 300 mile journey from seller to my house. worth the travelling but that seems to be a marathon journey for this car!!! hehe!! the sound of that exhaust though, whoa...!! v6's SHOULD sound like this!