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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2022, 19:38:26

Title: Power Generation
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2022, 19:38:26
Talking of power generation here (https://gridwatch.co.uk/) is the current mix as at 1925 GMT.  :)

Nuclear 14%
Gas 33%
Biomass 6%
Wind 26%
Solar 0%
Coal 4%
Pumped Hydro 1%
Hydro 3%
Interconnectors 13%

Obviously if you click on the link later, the mix will be different.  ;)
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 18 February 2022, 19:58:29
I've already done this in the snow thread.  ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2022, 20:14:25
I've already done this in the snow thread.  ;D

Yeh but you didn't do it very well!  :P
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: ronnyd on 18 February 2022, 20:51:52
Err, why no solar Tig?  :D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 18 February 2022, 21:03:47
I've already done this in the snow thread.  ;D

Yeh but you didn't do it very well!  :P
It's not worth doing it very well. The next post will probably be about the price of cheese and have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted  ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2022, 21:04:11
Err, why no solar Tig?  :D

The Sun's very lazy Ronny and only works part time!  :)
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2022, 21:06:55
I've already done this in the snow thread.  ;D

Yeh but you didn't do it very well!  :P
It's not worth doing it very well. The next post will probably be about the price of cheese and have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted ;D

Like you started wittering on about power generation in Drew's Snow thread? ???  ::)  ;D

That's why I started a new thread, so you can talk about windmills to your little hearts content!  :-*
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 18 February 2022, 21:07:49
I've already done this in the snow thread.  ;D

Yeh but you didn't do it very well!  :P
It's not worth doing it very well. The next post will probably be about the price of cheese and have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted ;D

Like you started wittering on about power generation in Drew's Snow thread? ???  ::)  ;D

That's why I started a new thread, so you can talk about windmills to your little hearts content!  :-*
Camembert is outrageously expensive  ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 18 February 2022, 21:09:03
Or...snow=storm Eunice=wind=wind power  :P
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2022, 21:10:27
I've already done this in the snow thread.  ;D

Yeh but you didn't do it very well!  :P
It's not worth doing it very well. The next post will probably be about the price of cheese and have absolutely nothing to do with what I posted ;D

Like you started wittering on about power generation in Drew's Snow thread? ???  ::)  ;D

That's why I started a new thread, so you can talk about windmills to your little hearts content!  :-*
Camembert is outrageously expensive  ;D

https://www.thedorsetmeatcompany.co.uk/product/cricket-st-thomas-somerset-camembert-220g/  :)
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 18 February 2022, 21:11:38
Hmmmm.....Dorset meat company......selling cheese. Figures, I suppose  ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 18 February 2022, 22:24:51
Hmmmm.....Dorset meat company......selling cheese. Figures, I suppose  ;D
It’s called diversification, and is an excellent strategy. TRE will be along shortly to bore you to death about its merits. Besides, if you aren't allowed to grow cows, then cheese is a good alternative.
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: TheBoy on 19 February 2022, 10:01:40
Hmmmm.....Dorset meat company......selling cheese. Figures, I suppose  ;D
It’s called diversification, and is an excellent strategy. TRE will be along shortly to bore you to death about its merits. Besides, if you aren't allowed to grow cows, then cheese is a good alternative.
Isn't cheese also banned but the lentil munchers, because they use what little green land is left in the country that could be better used to grow McPlant products?
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: LC0112G on 19 February 2022, 12:40:04
Most wind generating turbines have to be turned down/off with wind speeds above about 40kts average, or 50kts gust. They're basically designed to work between about 10mph and 40mph. It's not unusual to see average wind generation for short periods of time up around 40% of demand - the problem is sustaining that level come wind, rain, hail, or shine.

As is true with almost all renewables, they could/can generate 100%+ of demand when operating in their ideal conditions. The trouble is, ideal conditions tend not to coincide with demand (solar generation is best on hot sunny days, whilst peak demand is on cold, dark wintery evenings. So you really need to find a way to store the excess energy you can produce in the good times, to  use in the bad times when you really need it.

That's what is so good about fossil fuels - the energy has already been captured and stored in a relatively easy to use form. Generating the leccy with a turbine is only one part of the equation when replacing fossil - you still need a way to store it. At the moment that means batteries, and when the cost of adding those to the energy mix is included, suddenly wind/solar start to look much less attractive.

So either huge expensive battery farms, or huge expensive nuclear are required to ensure stability of supply. And that nettle has not been grasped.
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 19 February 2022, 13:10:56
Talking of power generation here (https://gridwatch.co.uk/) is the current mix as at 1925 GMT.  :)

Nuclear 14%
Gas 33%
Biomass 6%
Wind 26%
Solar 0%
Coal 4%
Pumped Hydro 1%
Hydro 3%
Interconnectors 13%

Obviously if you click on the link later, the mix will be different.  ;)

Despite the population growing, and despite us using more and more gadgets that require electricity, less electricity is being consumed.

Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 February 2022, 13:16:33
Constant speed variable pitch propellers are readily available.

These would allow for variable volumes of air (ie winds) whilst turning at a constant rate, thus making the generation more consistent.
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: dave the builder on 19 February 2022, 13:19:12
Gravity batteries should be used more IMO, not chemical batteries with a short life span
Dinorwig 288 megawatt  clicky (https://www.electricmountain.co.uk/Dinorwig-Power-Station)
It will mean flooding some parts of the UK ,but I'm OK with that ,they flood anyway and bump my insurance up   :D
better flood management could work out well .
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 February 2022, 14:28:03
Doesn't work as well in practice... Look at California... Similar size and population as the UK, but because most of the demand for water is Los Angeles, there's often a few months of the year where the resservoirs, sorry, gravity batteries can't spin a turbine, let alone supply the first farms down stream.

The trouble is, every new housing estate that spring up increases demand on local water tables. There is only a finite amount of water in the system, whether it is in pipes, puddles, the ground or the sky.

Which means moving water away from the reservoirs to new ones in other areas. Any power they generate on each through flow only serves to pump it elsewhere. Once you start using it for irrigation and moreso industry and domestic purposes, there's less to run the turbines. Ergo less electric.

Although, in theory you can run a closed system indefinitely.
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 19 February 2022, 14:29:19
I believe our climate is a bit damper than California.  ::)
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: dave the builder on 19 February 2022, 14:45:47
Doesn't work as well in practice...
it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 February 2022, 14:50:20
Well, it happens that California isn't quite a direct comparison. It's 1.7 times bigger for a start and has two thirds our population.

Also, because they are odd, their average annual precipitation is 19", whilst the mountains reliably see 5-6 feet of snow each year ???  So an extra 6-7" of water... ie 25"...

Whereas as our average of 33" includes snow... Go figure.  ;D

So we need more water than they do by virtue of the larger population but, by population, we actually get around the same combined rainfall.
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 February 2022, 14:52:52
Doesn't work as well in practice...
it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.
But they obviously don't supply Lundin and Brum with water or they'd have none to pump back uphill.  ;)

I don't dispute the principle, or that it works in isolation from the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 19 February 2022, 14:54:46
I believe our climate is a bit damper than California.  ::)

Is that specific to Barnsleywakefieldgrad or the UK in general? :)
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Kevin Wood on 19 February 2022, 14:56:21
Californians do waste an awful lot of water by trying to make golf courses in the desert, mind. ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 February 2022, 14:59:31
Californians do waste an awful lot of water by trying to make golf courses in the desert, mind. ;D
I never said they were bright...  ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 19 February 2022, 15:11:52
Doesn't work as well in practice...
it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.
But they obviously don't supply Lundin and Brum with water or they'd have none to pump back uphill.  ;)

I don't dispute the principle, or that it works in isolation from the rest of the world.
During peak demand, water, from up high, falls down and drives a turbine. This water is collected in a huge cavern below and is pumped back up using non- peak electricity. No water is supplied to Brum, London or Los Angeles.   ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: dave the builder on 19 February 2022, 16:18:14
Doesn't work as well in practice...
it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.
But they obviously don't supply Lundin and Brum with water or they'd have none to pump back uphill.  ;)

I don't dispute the principle, or that it works in isolation from the rest of the world.
During peak demand, water, from up high, falls down and drives a turbine. This water is collected in a huge cavern below and is pumped back up using non- peak electricity. No water is supplied to Brum, London or Los Angeles.   ;D
indeed  :)
but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
but just as a battery it works well too .
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 19 February 2022, 18:32:22
Doesn't work as well in practice...
it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.
But they obviously don't supply Lundin and Brum with water or they'd have none to pump back uphill.  ;)

I don't dispute the principle, or that it works in isolation from the rest of the world.
During peak demand, water, from up high, falls down and drives a turbine. This water is collected in a huge cavern below and is pumped back up using non- peak electricity. No water is supplied to Brum, London or Los Angeles.   ;D
indeed  :)
but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
but just as a battery it works well too .

I'm not sure there will be any spare solar or wind available once it's been chucked into the grid for everyday domestic purposes, and then there are other competing users like green hydrogen producers. I understand producing hydrogen uses a lot of energy of one kind or another so not quite the panacea some would have us believe?  :-\
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 19 February 2022, 19:35:07
Doesn't work as well in practice...
it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.

Not in the South East we don't.  In fact due to the declining amounts of rain we have seen in recent years, a new massive reservoir is planned for Broad Oak, Canterbury by South Eastern Water.

As for power generation we just need new nuclear plants around the country.  The trouble is successive governments have been slow to extend the network or even replace those that have been, or will be, decommissioned.  All too late really, but that is what is urgently required beyond the new one at Hinckley Point. ;)

The proposed mini-nuclear reactor programme could be our saviour though.

As for gas; just have the fracking schemes given a new lease of life and shoot those against them! :D ;)
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: dave the builder on 19 February 2022, 21:00:27

it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.

Not in the South East we don't. 
the "South east " is part of the UK  ;)

please read these bits

a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .

AND

but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
 

 :y

Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 20 February 2022, 01:06:37
On that point,

Horsham District Council have been banned from approving any more large scale development unless they can demonstrate that they will be water neutral or better.

In no small part because the Arun Valley water meadows are drying out and it's affecting rare/indigenous wildlife.

Quite right too. My commute is appalling compared to two years ago :-X
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 20 February 2022, 11:30:06

it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.

Not in the South East we don't. 
the "South east " is part of the UK  ;)

please read these bits

a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .

AND

but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
 

 :y

Yes Dave, I am well aware that it is ;D ;)

The point I was making was in the South East we have limited water supplies, and have done for years because the rainfall in these parts is at the lowest levels for the whole country. So the comment “we have plenty of water in the UK” is an over simplification of the facts. ;)

Yes, for decades a National water grid system has been suggested, but the physical difficulties of achieving this, along with the eye watering costs has meant it has gone no further.  In a perfect World it would be ideal, but the practicalities mean it is not for now, let alone perhaps for ever.

No, reservoirs are the immediate answer if the SE is going to avoid the predicted failure to meet the demands of a greatly increasing population :y
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Varche on 20 February 2022, 11:35:50
Years ago I suggested damming the Wash. That would make a nice reservoir.

It won’t be long before countries start looking at seawater and big time solar desalination plants ( not the uk) plenty of water there and it would help combat “rising sea levels” !
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 20 February 2022, 13:00:08

it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.

Not in the South East we don't. 
the "South east " is part of the UK  ;)

please read these bits

a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .

AND

but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
 

 :y

Yes Dave, I am well aware that it is ;D ;)

The point I was making was in the South East we have limited water supplies, and have done for years because the rainfall in these parts is at the lowest levels for the whole country. So the comment “we have plenty of water in the UK” is an over simplification of the facts. ;)

Yes, for decades a National water grid system has been suggested, but the physical difficulties of achieving this, along with the eye watering costs has meant it has gone no further.  In a perfect World it would be ideal, but the practicalities mean it is not for now, let alone perhaps for ever.

No, reservoirs are the immediate answer if the SE is going to avoid the predicted failure to meet the demands of a greatly increasing population :y

You'd think that they could make use of the 4000 odd miles of canals that criss cross England to transport water from one region to another.  :-\



Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 20 February 2022, 14:39:40

it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.

Not in the South East we don't. 
the "South east " is part of the UK  ;)

please read these bits

a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .

AND

but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
 

 :y

Yes Dave, I am well aware that it is ;D ;)

The point I was making was in the South East we have limited water supplies, and have done for years because the rainfall in these parts is at the lowest levels for the whole country. So the comment “we have plenty of water in the UK” is an over simplification of the facts. ;)

Yes, for decades a National water grid system has been suggested, but the physical difficulties of achieving this, along with the eye watering costs has meant it has gone no further.  In a perfect World it would be ideal, but the practicalities mean it is not for now, let alone perhaps for ever.

No, reservoirs are the immediate answer if the SE is going to avoid the predicted failure to meet the demands of a greatly increasing population :y

You'd think that they could make use of the 4000 odd miles of canals that criss cross England to transport water from one region to another.  :-\

As I understand it the canals authority does just that as much as possible, but the complexities and needs of those waterways themselves rather restrict the quantities of water transferred south.

No, ideally it really needs a very large diameter pipe from the Lake District, or other areas of heavy rainfall, all the way to the South East, with off shoots to other areas that require more water.  But, as I said, this would be very expensive, which the Victorians would have done, but in modern Britain we do not have the will power or finance to make it happen! ::)
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: STEMO on 20 February 2022, 15:27:06

it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.

Not in the South East we don't. 
the "South east " is part of the UK  ;)

please read these bits

a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .

AND

but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
 

 :y

Yes Dave, I am well aware that it is ;D ;)

The point I was making was in the South East we have limited water supplies, and have done for years because the rainfall in these parts is at the lowest levels for the whole country. So the comment “we have plenty of water in the UK” is an over simplification of the facts. ;)

Yes, for decades a National water grid system has been suggested, but the physical difficulties of achieving this, along with the eye watering costs has meant it has gone no further.  In a perfect World it would be ideal, but the practicalities mean it is not for now, let alone perhaps for ever.

No, reservoirs are the immediate answer if the SE is going to avoid the predicted failure to meet the demands of a greatly increasing population :y

You'd think that they could make use of the 4000 odd miles of canals that criss cross England to transport water from one region to another.  :-\

As I understand it the canals authority does just that as much as possible, but the complexities and needs of those waterways themselves rather restrict the quantities of water transferred south.

No, ideally it really needs a very large diameter pipe from the Lake District, or other areas of heavy rainfall, all the way to the South East, with off shoots to other areas that require more water.  But, as I said, this would be very expensive, which the Victorians would have done, but in modern Britain we do not have the will power or finance to make it happen! ::)
The south? Let them eat cake!  :P
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: dave the builder on 20 February 2022, 15:52:51
They could just dump all the spare water up north into the HS2 cut  ;D
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 20 February 2022, 16:10:48
They could just dump all the spare water up north into the HS2 cut  ;D

Now, joking aside, if someone in power had the get up and go Dave a very large water transfer pipe could have been laid under the H2 line(s) to give that project even greater value and purpose.

But, of course, we are in the short sighted British Isles of 2022! ::) ::) :P
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: ronnyd on 20 February 2022, 16:18:44

it already does , see the link  ::)
a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .
we have plenty of water in the UK.

Not in the South East we don't. 
the "South east " is part of the UK  ;)

please read these bits

a good national infrastructure system could be used to manage water and store electricity .

AND

but it could also supply water where needed and drain flooded areas IF a decent system was in place .(all pumped about with spare solar and wind power)
 

 :y

Yes Dave, I am well aware that it is ;D ;)

The point I was making was in the South East we have limited water supplies, and have done for years because the rainfall in these parts is at the lowest levels for the whole country. So the comment “we have plenty of water in the UK” is an over simplification of the facts. ;)

Yes, for decades a National water grid system has been suggested, but the physical difficulties of achieving this, along with the eye watering costs has meant it has gone no further.  In a perfect World it would be ideal, but the practicalities mean it is not for now, let alone perhaps for ever.

No, reservoirs are the immediate answer if the SE is going to avoid the predicted failure to meet the demands of a greatly increasing population :y
I see what you did there Lizzie.  ;D
On the subject of a national water grid, i think i read a while ago that the quality of the water deteriorates quite badly the further that it's pumped. Anyone else read this?  :-\
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 20 February 2022, 16:34:52
They could just dump all the spare water up north into the HS2 cut  ;D
Perhaps the Chinese will be kind enough to lend us the money to build it...
Title: Re: Power Generation
Post by: TheBoy on 20 February 2022, 17:23:55
Thames water have been trying to build a reservoir in Oxfordshire for as long as I remember. But people from Oxfordshire don't want such a thing anywhere near them...   ...yet are up in arms every other year when the hosepipe bans kick in ;D

Bloody eedjits.