Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 18 March 2022, 17:40:04
-
Crikey that was brutal.
Another company on my boycott list. Getting longer each day!
-
Bunch of Tuesdays! ::)
-
Bunch of Tuesdays! ::)
......and breathe. ::)
-
There's lots of posts on Social Media about this, it's P&O Ferries, P&O Cruises are a totally separate company and unaffected.
-
There's lots of posts on Social Media about this, it's P&O Ferries, P&O Cruises are a totally separate company and unaffected.
.
I believe they went their separate ways around 20 years ago.
-
There's lots of posts on Social Media about this, it's P&O Ferries, P&O Cruises are a totally separate company and unaffected.
Still a bunch of Tuesdays! ::)
-
What they have done is blatantly illegal in the UK, but they are registered in Jersey so apparently can get away with it.
Disgusting imo.
-
What they have done is blatantly illegal in the UK, but they are registered in Jersey so apparently can get away with it.
Disgusting imo.
From what I can ascertain is that under UK law, the only part that is legally naughty is the fact they didn't go through a consultation with the European Works Council (or the post Brexit equiv, if there is one) due to it being more than 100 employees.
From what I can work out, the rest is just being plain nasty. Yet legal.
-
I dont agree. Its illegal to make someone redundant and immediately replace them. If someone loses their job for reason of redundancy, its because the job will no longer exist.
-
I dont agree. Its illegal to make someone redundant and immediately replace them. If someone loses their job for reason of redundancy, its because the job will no longer exist.
I agree
sadly a quick change of job title/name and slight change to job description/working hours etc , circumvents such measures . :(
-
More unexpected consequences of globalisation. Cheapest is best. :-[
-
I dont agree. Its illegal to make someone redundant and immediately replace them. If someone loses their job for reason of redundancy, its because the job will no longer exist.
I agree
sadly a quick change of job title/name and slight change to job description/working hours etc , circumvents such measures . :(
Indeed, yes. Employment law that I once had to professionally adhere to and enforce is very complex. The power the employer has over the employee, or the reverse, is all dependant on the contract of employment that is enjoyed by the employee, and the legal boundaries specified. It is all in the wording of that in accordance with the Employment Rights Act 1996, which keeps solicitors specialising in this area busy in a lucrative manner.
I had to ensure the issuing of the employees contacts specified the minimum of hours that the employee was going to work. Any changes to that had to be agreed by both parties. Now in 2022 zero hours contracts are perfectly legal, but in my opinion are immoral, so the employee has no rights to demand a minimum working week.
As for redundancy, there are all manner of ways that can be enacted but subject to the length of service of the employee, and the wording of their Job Description which should define what duties they are expected to perform. The employer can legally decide that those duties coupled with the Job Description is now not beneficial to the business, not required, and therefore can make THAT position Redundant. The employer cannot legally employee someone else to fill that previously made redundant position, but they CAN create a new role for the new, or even existing, employee, with a changed specified list of functions under a new Job Description. Of course the company MUST pay, at least, the National legal minimum of redundancy, dependant on length of service, coupled with all outstanding holiday pay, although I would hope the Unions will negotiate a satisfactory level of redundancy pay commensurate with the employees employment situation.
P&O Ferries are doing just that, as my old company did, to save money and, it is always claimed, to improve the business model, thus potentially saving the business from failure and protecting other employees jobs. P&O I note are creating “lesser roles and duties” to replace those 800 currently employed who are being made redundant. Those employees have every right to then apply to be considered for the new roles, but P&O have every right to not re-employ them.
Regardless of the legal circumstances, P&O have handled the whole matter very badly, and have created for themselves a PR disaster. This will no doubt badly effect the business, and negate whatever they were trying to achieve, which the Directors should be ashamed of and whoever of them made the decision for this action to transpire should be themselves be dissmissed.
;)
-
"Any publicity is good publicity " so they say :P
If Joe public needs to get from one side of a body of water to another ,whilst they might feel sorry for the EX P&O employees , Joe public will probably still use that P&O ferry ,because it beats swimming ,particularly when taking a car or other large item that's hard to tow while swimming :P
If I was an ex P&O employee ,after how they treated staff ,I wouldn't want to work for them again anyway ???
From P&O's point of view , making massive financial losses long term needed addressing ,the business was a "sinking ship" ;D :P :-[ :-X
-
What they have done is blatantly illegal in the UK, but they are registered in Jersey so apparently can get away with it.
Disgusting imo.
Not to mention that the parent company is based in Dubai and they have very different views on labour. Also, where are the ferries registered, as again, that has a bearing as well.
Not saying that it is right, because it clearly isn't, but the only technical thing they have done wrong is that they neglected, or omitted to inform the government.
You could argue that being UK based, the unemployed staff should have undergone a six month consultation process with the option to join the agency that now staffs the ships.
I do find it strange that no one had an inkling of what was going on though, because having the new crews lined up ready would have taken some organisation... You can't just rock up at a port with 800 foreign workers :-X
-
I do find it strange that no one had an inkling of what was going on though, because having the new crews lined up ready would have taken some organisation... You can't just rock up at a port with 800 foreign workers :-X
But that's exactly how lots of ships are crewed.
-
I do find it strange that no one had an inkling of what was going on though, because having the new crews lined up ready would have taken some organisation... You can't just rock up at a port with 800 foreign workers :-X
But that's exactly how lots of ships are crewed.
Absolutely agree, yet apparently no one noticed? My point is that the unemployed crews should have seen it coming.
-
Nice to see that a couple of Government ministers have sent stiff letters to the CEO of P&O Ferries. Good for them. Bit of a shame they sent it to the guy who stood down from the role last year. ;D
-
Both the company and the employment contracts written and registered under Jersey Law which is a lot softer / easier then EU or UK employment law apparently.
Still a prize bunch of Cee U Next Tuesdays though >:(
-
This connection with Jersey is interesting and rather dubious.
P&O Ferries are a British company registered in London, with their HQ based in Dover. Jersey is not part of the UK, but a crown dependency, and not part of the EU.
I wonder how P&O managed to issue Employment Contracts based on Jersey Employment Law, and why, when the base of their employees working is from Dover. Looks like the work of dubious employment practices if all that is true.
It all stinks! >:(
-
P&O Ferries might have their office in Dover, but they are wholly owned by the company that operates Dubai port. The Dover office is probably a legacy kept for practical, ie tax efficient, purposes rather than an actual HQ... A working space for local management.
The Jersey office is probably a rental within a solicitors or accountancy firm. Fundamentally, the corporate policy will come from the UAE and will be based on their approach to labour relations.
P&O Cruises are a trading brand of Carnival iirc and have their office in Southampton. Like their stablemate Cunard, the bulk of their crews are from South East Asia. Most cruise companies pay their staff via employment agencies in the Caribbean, regardless of whether they like in Manilla or the New Forest and irrespective of where the ships are registered or the branding on them.
-
Read in the paper today that the agency workers can earn as much as £2.80 per hour wonder if the pension is any good?😂
-
If a company has to pay people £2.80 an hour to remain solvent, they should do the decent thing and go out of business.
I dont see the argument that the crews who lost their jobs should have seen this coming.
The company organised everything on the quiet, including security people to get them off the ships, and new employees being taken to just outside the ports by minibus without even being told exactly where they were going.
Not dissimilar to what Murdoch did to the printers when he presented them with new employment contracts which were little short of slavery.
Then when they inevitably went on strike, he sacked the lot of them, and had a new workforce, who knew how to use the new high tech equipment, already secretly lined up ready to replace them.
I had less sympathy for the printers though than I do for the ferry workers.
They were very militant unionists and earned a fortune for doing not very much.
-
P&O Ferries might have their office in Dover, but they are wholly owned by the company that operates Dubai port. The Dover office is probably a legacy kept for practical, ie tax efficient, purposes rather than an actual HQ... A working space for local management.
The Jersey office is probably a rental within a solicitors or accountancy firm. Fundamentally, the corporate policy will come from the UAE and will be based on their approach to labour relations.
P&O Cruises are a trading brand of Carnival iirc and have their office in Southampton. Like their stablemate Cunard, the bulk of their crews are from South East Asia. Most cruise companies pay their staff via employment agencies in the Caribbean, regardless of whether they like in Manilla or the New Forest and irrespective of where the ships are registered or the branding on them.
Yes, but as I stated the company itself is registered in London, hence the complexities of this case and the rights of British employees who operate from UK ports, and the Company’s HQ being based in Dover. ;)
-
I mentioned before that employment law can be complex.
Well, for those interested in reading this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/957335/MGN_477_Amendment_2_MLC_Seafarers_employment_agreements.pdf
You will understand how the rights of the P&O seaman are just that, complex. If you read this in regards to the MLC Seafarers Employers Agreements, that applies to British seaman on both U.K. or foreign registered vessels, you will note many legal loopholes that for me as a past mass employer suggests a company, such as P&O, can drive a ship through these so called “rights” that should give employment protection, but actually does not. Minimum notice periods, contractual specification such as hours, let alone any true form of employment protection under their SEA agreement appears to be so loose as to be not worth the paper it is written on.
In short, an employment lawyers field day, challenge, and an opportunity for lucrative work!
:(
-
It isn't registered in Lundun.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00237626
And according to their last tax filing, employed around 800 staff. On shore.
No mention of their crews. Ergo, P&O Ferries Ltd was not the employer of the previous crews.
Also worth noting that the claimed hourly rate will include food and accommodation and travel home on leave, and presuming that they are paid for the full day, by virtue of being onboard 24/7, they actually pull in a pretty decent income compared to what they might earn back home.
Condor Ferries crews average £11.5k, and apparently P&O were paying £4.50 an hour only two years ago... https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/po-crew-earn-450-hour-3923380
I would wager that the 32 jobs McDonald's currently has in Hull pay thrice that. (The wage examples given are actually in $).
Not that facts should dare to get in the way of a decent outrage.
-
That Hull Daily Mail article is from 2019, but confirms pretty much everything I suspected to be the case.
-
That Hull Daily Mail article is from 2019, but confirms pretty much everything I suspected to be the case.
You're a walking encyclopaedia, lad ;D
-
It isn't registered in Lundun.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00237626
And according to their last tax filing, employed around 800 staff. On shore.
No mention of their crews. Ergo, P&O Ferries Ltd was not the employer of the previous crews.
Also worth noting that the claimed hourly rate will include food and accommodation and travel home on leave, and presuming that they are paid for the full day, by virtue of being onboard 24/7, they actually pull in a pretty decent income compared to what they might earn back home.
Condor Ferries crews average £11.5k, and apparently P&O were paying £4.50 an hour only two years ago... https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/po-crew-earn-450-hour-3923380
I would wager that the 32 jobs McDonald's currently has in Hull pay thrice that. (The wage examples given are actually in $).
Not that facts should dare to get in the way of a decent outrage.
Yes it is. Like all UK companies, P&O is registered at Companies House, London. But their registered Head Office is in Dover. ;)
-
That Hull Daily Mail article is from 2019, but confirms pretty much everything I suspected to be the case.
You're a walking encyclopaedia, lad ;D
Full of useless information me. Occasionally it happens to be topical... ;D
-
It isn't registered in Lundun.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00237626
And according to their last tax filing, employed around 800 staff. On shore.
No mention of their crews. Ergo, P&O Ferries Ltd was not the employer of the previous crews.
Also worth noting that the claimed hourly rate will include food and accommodation and travel home on leave, and presuming that they are paid for the full day, by virtue of being onboard 24/7, they actually pull in a pretty decent income compared to what they might earn back home.
Condor Ferries crews average £11.5k, and apparently P&O were paying £4.50 an hour only two years ago... https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/po-crew-earn-450-hour-3923380
I would wager that the 32 jobs McDonald's currently has in Hull pay thrice that. (The wage examples given are actually in $).
Not that facts should dare to get in the way of a decent outrage.
Yes it is. Like all UK companies, P&O is registered at Companies House, London. But their registered Head Office is in Dover. ;)
Of course it is registered at Companies House, in Lundun, as that is the government office to whom companies must formally declare themselves.
Their registered office, however, is in Dover.
Feel free to split hairs if you must, but to say they are registered in Lundun is akin to suggesting that your car is registered in Swansea. The DVLA is in Swansea and they administer the registration of your car to the address of the registered keeper. Companies House is the business version of the DVLA.
-
It isn't registered in Lundun.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00237626
And according to their last tax filing, employed around 800 staff. On shore.
No mention of their crews. Ergo, P&O Ferries Ltd was not the employer of the previous crews.
Also worth noting that the claimed hourly rate will include food and accommodation and travel home on leave, and presuming that they are paid for the full day, by virtue of being onboard 24/7, they actually pull in a pretty decent income compared to what they might earn back home.
Condor Ferries crews average £11.5k, and apparently P&O were paying £4.50 an hour only two years ago... https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/po-crew-earn-450-hour-3923380
I would wager that the 32 jobs McDonald's currently has in Hull pay thrice that. (The wage examples given are actually in $).
Not that facts should dare to get in the way of a decent outrage.
Yes it is. Like all UK companies, P&O is registered at Companies House, London. But their registered Head Office is in Dover. ;)
Of course it is registered at Companies House, in Lundun, as that is the government office to whom companies must formally declare themselves.
Their registered office, however, is in Dover.
Feel free to split hairs if you must, but to say they are registered in Lundun is akin to suggesting that your car is registered in Swansea. The DVLA is in Swansea and they administer the registration of your car to the address of the registered keeper. Companies House is the business version of the DVLA.
What on earth are you going on about, yet again?! ::) ::) ::)
I stated clearly that P&O are registered in London - that is at companies house, and their HQ is in Dover.
Like all companies they have a registered head office, which In P&O’s case is in Dover.
So nothing complicated in that is there, but for you who obviously has something to prove for some reason, perhaps because of your young age at 43, and status in life, you have to make something out of nothing; then you bring in some absurd parallel with cars being registered at the DVLA or whatever!
For goodness sake get a life and stop always trying to enter every thread as though you know everything and no one else, especially me, does, with you challenging every word or phrase used. It is getting tedious as I have said in the past. This is not a university, highly academic web site, but a car forum! ::) ::) ::)
STEMO certainly has you sussed ;D ;D ;D
-
Here we go! ;D
-
LZ: The bulk of my post that you originally picked at had nothing to do with where the company is registered at.
Presumably that was the easiest thread to pull. Not debating any further as I, (and everyone else for that matter), will always be wrong, inexperienced and therefore utterly incomparable to the vast all encompassing "when I" approach to every subject.
-
At the end of the day what anyone thinks is largely irrelevant, as, according to their own tax filings, P&O Ferries does not directly employ anyone who isn't shorebased. So, by definition, everyone who was let go, was employed by someone other than P&O.
Said employees presumably were aware of this, yet suddenly it is the fault of P&O. That's what I meant when I said they should have been aware of something coming. Especially in light of the events in 2019.
It wouldn't surprise me if the agency/agencies they were employed by did inform the government that they were letting their staff go (assuming, of course, that they were letting over 100 people go... the legal threshold), or that they are even UK or EU based to begin with and therefore obliged to do so.
Still a shitty thing to do, but by no means unprecedented in a developed country in the 21st century.
-
I dont agree. Its illegal to make someone redundant and immediately replace them. If someone loses their job for reason of redundancy, its because the job will no longer exist.
I agree
sadly a quick change of job title/name and slight change to job description/working hours etc , circumvents such measures . :(
Yep, happened at every company i've worked for at least once.
-
I dont agree. Its illegal to make someone redundant and immediately replace them. If someone loses their job for reason of redundancy, its because the job will no longer exist.
I agree
sadly a quick change of job title/name and slight change to job description/working hours etc , circumvents such measures . :(
Yep, happened at every company i've worked for at least once.
Sometimes for the better but often not, and often done to skirt around TUPE regulations. Widespread use of agency staff now doesn't help the employee any either, especially when long established companies change hands four or five times in quick succession. Usually given away by rebranding.
For example, as a baggage handler at Don't Handle Luggage, we worked exclusively on Easyjet aircraft, (DHLs only contract) yet half the staff were employed by DHL, the rest by two agencies (on different terms), and staff at my agency were paid by a different company that the agency had subcontracted to.
Legally I was employed by the payroll company, when in reality Easyjet was the employer. By comparison, most of the DHL staff were on Menzies contracts having been TUPEd over whey they lost the contract, so in one operation there were potentially four different contracts for any given role.
-
Part of life losing employment, if none of you have never been there you're lucky as one door closes etc.
-
Part of life losing employment, if none of you have never been there you're lucky as one door closes etc.
Absolutely.
-
And yet again, another catastrophe which can be traced back to Gordon McRuin,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/alex-brummer-starmer-may-be-steaming-about-p-o-ferries-and-its-lamentable-behaviour-but-it-was-labour-who-sold-the-firm-down-the-river/ar-AAVlgWg?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
-
https://news.sky.com/story/p-o-ferries-sackings-change-in-law-signed-of-by-chris-grayling-meant-p-o-didnt-need-to-tell-govt-maritime-lawyer-says-12572920
Well that's that then...
Presumably the office in Nassau forgot to mention it.
-
And yet again, another catastrophe which can be traced back to Gordon McRuin,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/alex-brummer-starmer-may-be-steaming-about-p-o-ferries-and-its-lamentable-behaviour-but-it-was-labour-who-sold-the-firm-down-the-river/ar-AAVlgWg?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/alex-brummer-starmer-may-be-steaming-about-p-o-ferries-and-its-lamentable-behaviour-but-it-was-labour-who-sold-the-firm-down-the-river/ar-AAVlgWg?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)
No, it's Russian oligarch yacht owners using their maritime influence to ensure that Putin doesn't win the Biggest oppsup of 2022 Award.