Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: danzigfan on 11 December 2024, 20:30:37
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Hi guys, it has been a while...For the second time in two weeks it happened that EML started flashing without stopping when I put key and turn it to position before crank. If I try to start the car, it cranks, bit doesn't start.
Solution to this is to take the key out, lock/unlock the car and then it's fine. No EML flashing, starts on first turn.
Is this just a presign of troubles to come?
Any fix for this before it becomes serious?
Thanks in advance, Stan
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How many GM keys on the ring?
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Only one came with the car. I do have another copy made later. Is it key transponder issue?
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Long story short, but I had this a couple of years on my 2.6. A replacement crank sensor didnt help. Initially it was just intermittently, but eventually the car would not start at all, and the dash lights were illuminated like a Christmas tree. A replacement engine ECU cured the problem and it was fine afterwards.
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Well...now I'm really sorry I didn't pull ECU out of my 2.5 when it went to the scrapyard
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Is the only issue flashing EML and no sign of it firing?
If so, its likely to be either the transponder in the key or the pick up ring around the ignition, but worth checking the integrity of the loom around the immobiliser ring.
You'd be very unlucky for it to be the main engine ECU, as these are virtually bomb proof on the 2.5 and 3.0
(2.6/3.2 are pretty reliable as well, but not quite as good as the older ones)
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Only one came with the car. I do have another copy made later. Is it key transponder issue?
If there's more than one key for a GM car on the key ring, then the transponder may be getting confused.
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Defo worth trialling a 2nd key if you have one. Not on the same keyring as DG says.
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No, second key is nowhere near the key ring...It ruins the purpose of second key🤷 I'll check the immobilizer ring when temperature ouside rises a bit. Second key was made by local locksmith, transporder chip was easy to duplicate and it was cheap to make. But it works.
First on to do list is leaking HBV tomorrow...priorities, then all the rest, neverending I guess
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No, second key is nowhere near the key ring...It ruins the purpose of second key🤷 I'll check the immobilizer ring when temperature ouside rises a bit. Second key was made by local locksmith, transporder chip was easy to duplicate and it was cheap to make. But it works.
First on to do list is leaking HBV tomorrow...priorities, then all the rest, neverending I guess
Any keys for other cars on the keyring ::)
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No, second key is nowhere near the key ring...It ruins the purpose of second key🤷 I'll check the immobilizer ring when temperature ouside rises a bit. Second key was made by local locksmith, transporder chip was easy to duplicate and it was cheap to make. But it works.
First on to do list is leaking HBV tomorrow...priorities, then all the rest, neverending I guess
If other key works consistently but the first key doesn't, haven't you already found your issue?
Or have I misunderstood something?
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Other key is for"just in case"...both work for now. Issue is intermittent at the moment
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Other key is for"just in case"...both work for now. Issue is intermittent at the moment
Can you use the "other" key for a week or 2, to prove the fault to the key, or to the car itself?
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Nice idea...thanks. will report
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No, second key is nowhere near the key ring...It ruins the purpose of second key🤷 I'll check the immobilizer ring when temperature ouside rises a bit. Second key was made by local locksmith, transporder chip was easy to duplicate and it was cheap to make. But it works.
First on to do list is leaking HBV tomorrow...priorities, then all the rest, neverending I guess
If other key works consistently but the first key doesn't, haven't you already found your issue?
Or have I misunderstood something?
It may have been lost in translation, but yes. Any other car key with a similar transponder signature can potentially cause an issue.
So any transponder key NOT for.the Omega on the same key ring could cause interference.
Also lots of keys and a slightly worn ignition switch might just alter the position of the chip in relation to the transponder ring enough to disrupt it.
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No, second key is nowhere near the key ring...It ruins the purpose of second key🤷 I'll check the immobilizer ring when temperature ouside rises a bit. Second key was made by local locksmith, transporder chip was easy to duplicate and it was cheap to make. But it works.
First on to do list is leaking HBV tomorrow...priorities, then all the rest, neverending I guess
If other key works consistently but the first key doesn't, haven't you already found your issue?
Or have I misunderstood something?
It may have been lost in translation, but yes. Any other car key with a similar transponder signature can potentially cause an issue.
So any transponder key NOT for.the Omega on the same key ring could cause interference.
Also lots of keys and a slightly worn ignition switch might just alter the position of the chip in relation to the transponder ring enough to disrupt it.
Lost in translation between two people that speak the same language 😂
What Jaime was saying is, if one key works and the other doesn't, it's the key.
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That's true if it is the only key any where near the ignition.
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On the Omega, I've never really had an issue with multiple GM keys on a single bunch, as long as the one in the ignition switch is correct. And I suspect I've tried a bigger bunch of them than many ;D
But its not ideal to do that though, especially when diagnosing transponder issues.
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It happened again today, so I tested spare key as mentioned..It doesn't work. It took half an hour for engine to start again. Key out, lock/unlock open door...doesn't matter...No start, only cranking. EML stopped flashing after half an hour and then it started.
So at least I know the problem is not the key
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So remove the steering cowling and check the connector to the ring around ignition. Also, check if a previous owner has selleopated a transponder in this area (surprisingly common because some people didn't want to pay to get the transponder programmed when they needed a new key)
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Thanks...will check tomorrow :y
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And another thing...I noticed this problem occurs only when engine is hot. Lets say I went to a store, few minute passes, it won't start. As soon as it cools down a bit, it starts...or it seems so.
Should my next step be crank sensor?
Although flashing EML is immobilizer smptom
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Flashing EML means it won't even attempt to spark/fuel, so crank sensor shouldn't come into it. Although all V6 Omega owners should carry a spare sensor and E8 (from memory) socket in the boot!
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New day, new problem...urgent help please
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Eml isn't flashing anymore but the car doesn't start.
Got codes 12
31 - no engine RPM
144 - Immobiliser No Signal
Crank sensor?
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What is the ECU coolant temperature showing?
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I can tell you only for gauge temp, sory. Shows cold
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I can tell you only for gauge temp, sory. Shows cold
Not much help. Basically, if the ECU temp sender has failed and defaulted to -40°C then it will try to start with the injectors maxed out. This floods the engine and you'll never get it running once it's warmed up.
Pull fuse 18 and crank it several times. You might find it fires. It it does then you need a new ECU temp sender.
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Thanks, will try it now
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Still nothing. Only cranking, no start
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Does the fuel pump turn on with the ignition?
It should run briefly.
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No...I can't hear it. But as far as I can remember It never ran before cranking...even when all was fine with the car
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That might be a problem.
It should run for a couple of seconds when the ignition is first turned to position 2. It then won't run again until the ECU receives a signal from both the crank and cam sensors.
Basically there should be just enough fuel in the rail to start the car and allow it to run for a couple of seconds.
Bang the bottom of the tank as someone cranks the car. If it fires then the fuel pump has failed.
So next question...
Are you getting a spark?pop out the #2 plug and place it against the lifting eye and try cranking it again. If it sparks then you've a fuel issue or a crank sensor one.
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long Shot, do you charge a Power bank via Front or Rear Ciggy Lighter Socket and if so are you leaving it plugged in when you start or trying to start the Car?
If so remove it before locking up, or if it's non starting remove the PB and do this -
Remove Key from ING Barrel, open Drivers Door then close it, lock the Car with Fob or Key, Unlock the Car, open Drivers Door, shut Door then try a new Start.
Even without a Powerbank, you you could try the above.
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That might be a problem.
It should run for a couple of seconds when the ignition is first turned to position 2. It then won't run again until the ECU receives a signal from both the crank and cam sensors.
Basically there should be just enough fuel in the rail to start the car and allow it to run for a couple of seconds.
Bang the bottom of the tank as someone cranks the car. If it fires then the fuel pump has failed.
So next question...
Are you getting a spark?pop out the #2 plug and place it against the lifting eye and try cranking it again. If it sparks then you've a fuel issue or a crank sensor one.
Have spark but car keeps stalling after I replaced crank sensor.
Runs fine only if I give it some beans.
Will pop the fuel rail off now...
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I replaced fuel pump.....car runs for about 4 minutes on idle then dies with AC on.
It stalls almost emediately with AC off.
Takes longer to start in both cases
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So I think this is different to the immobiliser issue.
Do you have the tools to get live data readings? If so, what is the MAF (g/s or Kg/m), and is the idle stable or lumpy?
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No access to live data sorry....Procedure was as follows:
Yesterday car was dead, cranking but no start, eml showed 31 and 144
Today: Replaced crank sensor - cranked for a long time then started with very lumpy idle, not firing all cylinders.
Removed fuel lines by the plenum and there was no fuel pressure...only few drops came out. Eml was still flashing immobilizer code at first cranking then it disappeared for good.and didn't come back.
Then I replaced fuel pump - car ran noticably better, but stalls after 3 - 4 minutes.
I noticed the engine stalls if I turn AC OFF emediately. With AC ON, it runs a bit longer, I assume because of higher RPM's.
Another thing is....Engine stalls when it reaches operating temperature.
I will replace MAF now and report.
It's a good thing I have many parts from previous V6
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What crank sensor did you fit?
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...can't remember now, I'm at work...Something like NTK was the brand. Only two makers were available and this one wasn't cheap :( I' go for Bosch one if I could.
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Can't report on idle problem yet but I made a 100 miles to work today and it ran fine...all motorway so no idling.
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Can't report on idle problem yet but I made a 100 miles to work today and it ran fine...all motorway so no idling.
That's a fair old commute. :)
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Can't report on idle problem yet but I made a 100 miles to work today and it ran fine...all motorway so no idling.
That's a fair old commute. :)
It certainly is! In this country, it would be time to come home as soon as you got there.
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Can't report on idle problem yet but I made a 100 miles to work today and it ran fine...all motorway so no idling.
That's a fair old commute. :)
I think its not far off normal now... ;)
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The Omega seems excessively fussing with crank sensors. That's why we always say, without fail, use a genuine one direct from a GM dealer (not online, egay, Amazon, whatever, and also not other brands, including Bosch and Siemens).
However, I don't think this is a crank sensor issue. 9 times of of 10, it will through a crank sensor code (the 31 on a 2.5/3.0 is not a crank sensor fault code), which is 19 for 2.5/3.0 and 0335 for 2.6/3.2
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I ordered the same crank sensor that failed. Same part number, same brand - Bosch. It was working fine for 4 years of my ownership and for 75.000 km so i think this will be ok choice. I'll put this "half working" crank sensor that' installed curently in the boot for just in case...I know it's good enough to take me home if new one fails
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Omega died few days ago at least 10 times on motorway on me. Luckily it managed to start back to life every time to get me to work. Next mornig it didn't want to start . An hour ago I replaced crank sensor again with same part as was in before (but new one). No start. Fuel pump works - tested on fuel lines, cranks but gets no spark. Dis pack is "new", installed a year or two ago from my previous 2.5 v6.
EML doesn't flash and isn't on.
Any help before I give up please
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Where did you get the crank sensor from?
The advice was always to buy it from a genuine VX/Opel dealer that you genuinely had to walk into.
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Called the dealer, part is no longer available...Omega is still dead and the immobilizer light came back flashing.
Is there any way tk bypass/remove immobilizer from ecu?
If that is the problem
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Not on a post 1995 car.
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So...replace ECU, key ring, key....anything else?
Parts from 2.5 manual most likely to get
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So...replace ECU, key ring, key chip....anything else?
Parts from 2.5 manual most likely to get
Keep the original key blade and remote part. It's just the little black chip.
And be meticulous when you swap the parts over.
Ideally you would get the following:
Car pass
Engine ECU
Transponder ring
Chip
*Also the door/boot/ignition barrels and keys and remote locking ECU.
Label the new parts as such and label a bag "Original Parts" and swap each item one by one and place the original parts in the bag as you go and put the clearly marked second Car Pass with the original one in the handbook folder.
* Not strictly necessary, the first four will get the job done ;)
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/124192209893?fits=Make%3AOpel&_skw=opel+omega+v6+transponder&itmmeta=01JH13JZGVT9VHQABFT1DPK456&hash=item1cea6ebbe5:g:LmMAAOSwLhJew7Tb&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAABAHoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKlDJ%2FZ0l3uIAFxtgs4OHZGKIDZGEGRFBWNw5FPFxf5vdQAdS7rkbLslEMbZTctQTp58DNy%2BYDXp3lWqarboTnBTeEwv%2BOuxM41ecfOwEqABStWJ%2FXhyWC3BWBzqgri1%2FGpgNwdaq1f5KYi8VjUOOWpGH0bUMXFUF8MeoX2bOlCNN1ETJNC86vxWzxla2gV2ccmqTOTZN4CUQ8DsUhzt8m2QVgRQs9cp4%2BaymjLqn0BztaqBhmc2%2BQHvgy3ubv9DMkaOZjpAvwMCh%2Fbr0fzgJfsil3RmYAXwqU%2FPJ%2FoiHoZJ9nBB9mtPKdeouJfKr1odU4s%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8D4y6OIZQ
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Should this set work? Will remote lock/unlock work if only this is replaced?
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Should this set work? Will remote lock/unlock work if only this is replaced?
That should get the job done. :y
*Obviously the Car Pass would be a bonus, but if you can get the VIN from the donor car then that would suffice.
The remote part is totally separate and is effectively a standalone system to lock/unlock the doors and set the alarm.
* This is just in case you have an issue down the road and need another transponder chip ;)
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..thanks, this helped a lot. Will give it a shot
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..thanks, this helped a lot. Will give it a shot
Obviously triple check that it's roughly the same year as yours. Pre facelift might be different, but mid and post facelift should be interchangeable for the 2.5 :y
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So for immobiliser:
Engine ECU, Immobiser ECU/ring, Transponders (and ideally the pairing PIN (carpass))
Remote locking:
Alarm/central locking (depending on spec), remote fobs and ideally pairing PIN
Engine ECU has to be from the right era, and does run a configuration depending on engine/gearbox (and this ideally needs to be correct, adjustable via Tech2)
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It will run and drive fine with the wrong gearbox coding :y
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May not be this (2.6 not 2.5) but easy fix if it is:
https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=150996.msg2042122#msg2042122 (https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=150996.msg2042122#msg2042122)
Part number is 90494959 12v 30A * Gm 90 494 959 also used on Astras, Zafiras, Saabs etc.. Pre-owned available for £5 from eBay.
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May not be this (2.6 not 2.5) but easy fix if it is:
https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=150996.msg2042122#msg2042122 (https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=150996.msg2042122#msg2042122)
Part number is 90494959 12v 30A * Gm 90 494 959 also used on Astras, Zafiras, Saabs etc.. Pre-owned available for £5 from eBay.
OP said he was getting fuel at the rail. Plus the intermittent immobiliser light.....
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Update....Still nothing new. A mobile electrician who I know will arrive later today, he says he has OBD1 and "My Naff Code Reader" software to check live data.
In summary, yesterday car started after many tries and ran for few minutes then died. Then started again just to die some 10 seconds later.
No EML flashing this time.
Remote sometimes locks/unlocks after 4 or 5 tries, never first time. I took the battery out, recharge it and tried to start the car today, because I came to the conclusion it could be alternator overcharging and making all this weird problems. Spoiler- it didin't start today at all. I do get faint smell of fuel, so the pump is working. But it gets no spark. It has an MOT next month, so I'm really under pressure now. Dealer says original crank sensor is NLA and washed his hands.
Can anyone tell me what to look for when live data is on PC?
Anything will help.
Thanks, Stan
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Do you hear the fuel pump when you turn the key to position 2?
If not, it isn't working.
The remote locking and the immobiliser are two totally independent systems. The only common aspect is that the remote fob and transponder chip both form part of the key assembly.
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I get the fuel running if I take fuel hoses on the plenum off when cranking. I also replaced fuel pimp with known good one from my previous v6, just in case. Made no difference
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I get no spark on any leads
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I get the fuel running if I take fuel hoses on the plenum off when cranking. I also replaced fuel pimp with known good one from my previous v6, just in case. Made no difference
Running as in a steady stream or spraying everywhere?
A weak pump may still deliver fuel, but won't be able to achieve the required pressure to allow the injectors to spray properly as you crank... This matters because after the initial prime, the pump remains OFF until the ECU sees both cam and crank sensor inputs.
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Running in steady stream, both pumps the same
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Running in steady stream, both pumps the same
You need to put a gauge on the fuel rail. A steady stream is not 3.0 Bar.
Without enough fuel it will never start.
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What's the chance of both pumps being bad? They were both in working order
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as mentioned above you need a pressure guage on the fuel rail . this will confirm a few things .
initial prime when ign turned on and wether it holds pressure for a resonable time .
pressure maintained when engine starts ( if it does) and the modulation of the regulator when you rev it . you can also do an injector leak down / flow test if you have the facility on your tester to fire the injectors .
so ....after confirming fuel
you can test the injectors electrically with a low wattage lamp to check for voltage present and firing . im pretty sure they are constant positive when its main relay energises and then the ecu modilates the negative . a basic light whilst cranking would confirm this .
BUT this appears a totally seperate issue to immobiliser issue earlier ? and lots of weird things happening randomly and then going away points to an earthing fault somewhere (possibly ?)
but see what your tech guy finds today ???
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Will report on what will tech guy find...It would be much more pleasant to work on car if it was summer...now it's -15 deg outside and I can't feel my fingers anymore
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-15 wow i feel for you . we think its bad here when its below +5 ! . all credit to you .
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Guys, quick question....How do I remove immobilizer from steering column?
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Take the ignition barrel out and it will slide straight off :y
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It's done...she lives again!
Key reader/transponder immobilizer was probaly faulty.
Replaced ECU, key chip and immobilizer and she was brought back from the dead :y ;D
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Bish bash bosh :y
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Excellent news :y
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Great news :)