Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Martin_1962 on 26 October 2008, 17:37:55
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One thing of note is that people from the lower end of things are having a lot more children than better educated people / better positioned in life are having less.
I am NOT decrying all children from disadvantaged families of course, just where many children are produced and parents do not install respect and good attitude, (I grew up in a mobile home!)
But looking at trends - do you think there will be repercussions in the future?
Your thoughts please.
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I feel ( perhaps incorrectly ) that many no-earners reproduce as a means to increase benefits and secure housing. Also declining educational standards leads to the inability to read the instructions on contraceptives !
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I feel ( perhaps incorrectly ) that many no-earners reproduce as a means to increase benefits and secure housing. Also declining educational standards leads to the inability to read the instructions on contraceptives !
That is the feeling I get - I have three and it is a constant struggle
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I feel ( perhaps incorrectly ) that many no-earners reproduce as a means to increase benefits and secure housing. Also declining educational standards leads to the inability to read the instructions on contraceptives !
Oh yes, how very true, not all, but i can think of some >:( >:(
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I feel ( perhaps incorrectly ) that many no-earners reproduce as a means to increase benefits and secure housing. Also declining educational standards leads to the inability to read the instructions on contraceptives !
I think you are right here. It will never happen but I believe you should only get benefits for 2 kids and any more kids and you need to support them yourself. I would only consider having children when I am in a position to look after them financially.
When you hear about these families on benefits getting 100k a year for there 15 kids it makes me angry. They should get a job then they wouldnt have the time or energy to have 15 kids!
Richard
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This is very contraversial ground as who of our politicians in our liberal democracy is going to stop those on benefit having children and what is the moral case / right to do so?
I have split opinions on this myself, 50% of which are not 'PC'!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
But China controls the number of children born in their (new social capitalist communist ) country and Nazi Germany tried the same!! ::) ::) ::)
No easy answer? :o :o.......maybe!! :)
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But in the same lite as Mike F has said in the past, His son(s)/stepson(s), 1 is great the other is not so. My own step daughters 1 was as good as gold, the other, if there was a right and a wrong way, she'd choose the wrong way and then let everyone suffer the consequences
Same family (working) not a fantastic wage but better than some.
a Father that lived in the USA working for a british company good wage.
so why the difference in attitudes
give me an answer to that Martin?
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Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.
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But in the same lite as Mike F has said in the past, His son(s)/stepson(s), 1 is great the other is not so. My own step daughters 1 was as good as gold, the other, if there was a right and a wrong way, she'd choose the wrong way and then let everyone suffer the consequences
Same family (working) not a fantastic wage but better than some.
a Father that lived in the USA working for a british company good wage.
so why the difference in attitudes
give me an answer to that Martin?
I have a similar situation and (apart from genetics --- different mix from the same pool) the only difference between them is the crowd they fell in with.
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Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.
I am glad an Admin has said that TB ;D ;D :y :y :y :y :y :y
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. There were people in a same sized room with five children. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And it went on and on and on. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery. Not such a wonderful system perhaps. And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.
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Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.
Totally agree.
Personal situation:
Have 1 12yr old and 1 30mth old here.
Childcare in wolves is non existant, so swmnbo has to stay home for the kids. does that make her lazy
if you think so, then you need to go back and think again
Just because I'm working for home now, Does that make me lazy.
I get up and do what I need to do. I'm in a privalidged situation. I can work and spend time with the family.
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. There were people in a same sized room with five children. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And it went on and on and on. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery. Not such a wonderful system perhaps. And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.
You just weren't good enough at claiming all benefits ;)
TB runs and hides before SheWhoMustNotBeOutbid beats me to a pulp with a back seat ;D
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The government are starting to introduce sex education into primary schools to stop teenage pregnancies. Round here a teenage pregnancy is a right of passage to a council house, next door to mum if possible please.
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
I think a lot has to do with the area you live in and the attitude of the council. I live in a rented 2 bed flat on the second storey and have been on the council waiting list for over a decade. The child I had living with me when I went on the list as a single parent has set up her own home and I now have a 2 year old. In ten years I have never got anywhere near the top of the list and have always worked. Yet I see people all around me here ( normally single mums) getting housed -- if the council have no houses they rent privately and re-rent to the single mums.
I am afraid that, here at least, procreation IS a way to housing! Incidentally -- that does seem only to apply to the non workers!
As for the extra money not covering the costs -- in some cases this is true --- in those cases where the interests of the child are paramont. Otherwise you see the kids, barely cared for, hardly dressed and constantly hungry, while mum can afford to drink and smoke!!!!!
I personally know many families created to get benefits and housing --- usually one mum, several dads set ups !!!
I was brought up on a council estate, have been a single dad with a daughter living with me and have always managed to work --- and know for a fact that I was ( and still am) living on less that my non-working counterparts.
Am not spouting politically inspired hot air here -- I speak as you do -- from experience. However -- it would appear that my part of the world is far different.
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TB forgets he's waiting for a set of back seats.., and I have launched them already.., everyone wait for the doodlebug style sound effects.
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. There were people in a same sized room with five children. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And it went on and on and on. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery. Not such a wonderful system perhaps. And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.
Yes well stated SWMNBO, with many valid points!
As I have stated already not an easy subject to comment on, with many people having many different views, correct and very incorrect, depending on what "side of the track" you reside in or have done.
I personally see people on benefits with children who are great parents and are doing what they can to improve their lot. A few others I know have got more than enough children to cope with, on benefits and 'using' the system to their advantage. BUT, they have a far from easy life! :'( :'(
If I was God perhaps I could put it right, but of course I am a mere mortal with some strong social coupled with political views, without any satisfactory answers. :'( :'( :'( ::) ::) ::)
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Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.
Totally agree.
Personal situation:
Have 1 12yr old and 1 30mth old here.
Childcare in wolves is non existant, so swmnbo has to stay home for the kids. does that make her lazy
if you think so, then you need to go back and think again
Just because I'm working for home now, Does that make me lazy.
I get up and do what I need to do. I'm in a privalidged situation. I can work and spend time with the family.
Far from it --- no way is child care lazy. I think the OP's point (to some extent) was that some parents do not actually CARE for the kids, who are left to be basically ferral
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Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.
Totally agree.
Personal situation:
Have 1 12yr old and 1 30mth old here.
Childcare in wolves is non existant, so swmnbo has to stay home for the kids. does that make her lazy
if you think so, then you need to go back and think again
Just because I'm working for home now, Does that make me lazy.
I get up and do what I need to do. I'm in a privalidged situation. I can work and spend time with the family.
That is entirely irrelevent to the question :-/
The fact she is a full time mum has nothing to do with whether or not she wants to work. Situations dictate that she has to stay at home.
So, no, staying at home to look after kids does not make her lazy. But if circumstances were different, eg, no kids, or at school etc, and she didn't want to go to work, instead wanting to live entirely off the state, thats different.
Does that make sense, or have I just offended a load of people ;D
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TB forgets he's waiting for a set of back seats.., and I have launched them already.., everyone wait for the doodlebug style sound effects.
Ouch!
;D
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When I split from my ex wife. Council tenant. the local authority would NOT house a single man. Although at the time I was homeless
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Bottom line is that, naturally, there are good and bad apples in all walks of life and at all strata ....... look at some of these fat cat bankers -- apparently working -- obscene wages... yet a total waste of space. If they impart the same outlook to their offspring, they too are a waste of space ( and potential).
Other side of the coin, many from disadvantaged backgrounds knuckle down and work to improve their lot.
labelling is very hit and miss --- but I stand by my earlier comments, based on the actual situation in my experience and area ::)
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I do appreciate what u are saying holycount, but all I can say is I lept at the chance of starting up a business because it allowed me to get off the benefits system and still be able to live.
I've never ever known people have children to get a house or benefits.., its hardly a rewarding occupation trying to live on benefits.., they were set at subsistence level (even that was abandoned many years ago) so its not an easy life.
However once u have children, and child care is expensive (remember u have to pay for child care in advance of receipt of salary too) it is very very difficult to get out of the hole. With a child with special needs for whom I am constantly being called up the school/various meetings.., its more difficult but obviously thats the exception rather than the rule.
I just so wish there was more child care.., then perhaps less would get into this situation cause unfortunately once u are on benefits, the longer u are on them the less reserves u have and so it gets more and more difficult to get out of the situation.
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. There were people in a same sized room with five children. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And it went on and on and on. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery. Not such a wonderful system perhaps. And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.
A lot of points you have made here are valid, and for the majority of people it is fair to say that they share your view,
I used to live in Bristol in the 80's and 90's, i knew a lot of people who came from a background that believed that the social system would support them throughout their 'working' life, however for them 'working' meant living off the social system, in school they were happy to admit that they had zero intention of getting a job and talking to a few friends it would seem a lot of them fulfilled that prophecy
I have seen girls/women get pregnant just for the purpose of gaining social housing, at that point they then realise that the flat they envisaged is in fact a grotty B&B that is full to the rafters with others in the same situation, and so the cycle starts or continues dependant upon that persons asperations/peers/upbringing/ and many other variables.
There is a social group who feel that they have a right to take from the state, this is the group that concern me, the risk of 'breeding childen of the same mindset' then creates more issues and so it snowballs to a point where the social network can't support everyone because there are more people taking that they are giving to the network.
I don't believe that everyone who uses the social system should be tarred with the same brush, given the current financial situation i would imagine that there are more and more people who will be reliant upon it, it could happen to one of us, its how people use that helps and move forward with their lives that makes them and their children different.
I could talk for hours about this as it is a subject close to my heart. The social concept is excellent, its just the freeloaders who have corrupted the system and made other people then feel bad about using it when they have a right to do so
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I do appreciate what u are saying holycount, but all I can say is I lept at the chance of starting up a business because it allowed me to get off the benefits system and still be able to live.
I've never ever known people have children to get a house or benefits.., its hardly a rewarding occupation trying to live on benefits.., they were set at subsistence level (even that was abandoned many years ago) so its not an easy life.
However once u have children, and child care is expensive (remember u have to pay for child care in advance of receipt of salary too) it is very very difficult to get out of the hole. With a child with special needs for whom I am constantly being called up the school/various meetings.., its more difficult but obviously thats the exception rather than the rule.
I just so wish there was more child care.., then perhaps less would get into this situation cause unfortunately once u are on benefits, the longer u are on them the less reserves u have and so it gets more and more difficult to get out of the situation.
In one of my previous careers, I used to be a service 'engineer' (ie technician ;D), and used to go in thousands of customer's houses.
Believe me, a not insignificant number of people can make a reasonable living purely on benefits.
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I do appreciate what u are saying holycount, but all I can say is I lept at the chance of starting up a business because it allowed me to get off the benefits system and still be able to live.
I've never ever known people have children to get a house or benefits.., its hardly a rewarding occupation trying to live on benefits.., they were set at subsistence level (even that was abandoned many years ago) so its not an easy life.
However once u have children, and child care is expensive (remember u have to pay for child care in advance of receipt of salary too) it is very very difficult to get out of the hole. With a child with special needs for whom I am constantly being called up the school/various meetings.., its more difficult but obviously thats the exception rather than the rule.
I just so wish there was more child care.., then perhaps less would get into this situation cause unfortunately once u are on benefits, the longer u are on them the less reserves u have and so it gets more and more difficult to get out of the situation.
This is so true -- the "system" does not make getting back to work at all easy. I was lucky, I guess, never got trapped. When I was made redundant with my daughter to care for, I walked into the social security office, looked around at my "waiting area mates", thought "Sod this", retched and left. Signed on at an agency then got a permanent job within a week anyway, in which, working 30 hours (to fit around school) I was earning the princely sum of 50 pence per week over and above the benefits I was told I could get.
The difference, cash wise, was not a lot --- however, on benefits I would have had my rent and council tax paid in full, earning the extra 50 pence put me just out of qualifying ---- so I was actually £70 a week worse off!!! Also, if unemployed, my daughters uniform would have been paid for, as well as her school meals, school trips etc !!!
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. There were people in a same sized room with five children. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And it went on and on and on. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery. Not such a wonderful system perhaps. And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.
A lot of points you have made here are valid, and for the majority of people it is fair to say that they share your view,
I used to live in Bristol in the 80's and 90's, i knew a lot of people who came from a background that believed that the social system would support them throughout their 'working' life, however for them 'working' meant living off the social system, in school they were happy to admit that they had zero intention of getting a job and talking to a few friends it would seem a lot of them fulfilled that prophecy
I have seen girls/women get pregnant just for the purpose of gaining social housing, at that point they then realise that the flat they envisaged is in fact a grotty B&B that is full to the rafters with others in the same situation, and so the cycle starts or continues dependant upon that persons asperations/peers/upbringing/ and many other variables.
There is a social group who feel that they have a right to take from the state, this is the group that concern me, the risk of 'breeding childen of the same mindset' then creates more issues and so it snowballs to a point where the social network can't support everyone because there are more people taking that they are giving to the network.
I don't believe that everyone who uses the social system should be tarred with the same brush, given the current financial situation i would imagine that there are more and more people who will be reliant upon it, it could happen to one of us, its how people use that helps and move forward with their lives that makes them and their children different.
I could talk for hours about this as it is a subject close to my heart. The social concept is excellent, its just the freeloaders who have corrupted the system and made other people then feel bad about using it when they have a right to do so
This, also, is a valid point. But the system should be ther as a crutch, not a life time aspiration. It should be totally re-hashed to be a way of getting the support when you need it and then enabling you to get back to work, rather than making it's users dependant.
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But in the same lite as Mike F has said in the past, His son(s)/stepson(s), 1 is great the other is not so. My own step daughters 1 was as good as gold, the other, if there was a right and a wrong way, she'd choose the wrong way and then let everyone suffer the consequences
Same family (working) not a fantastic wage but better than some.
a Father that lived in the USA working for a british company good wage.
so why the difference in attitudes
give me an answer to that Martin?
Were the parents trying to do their best?
That is the point - rather than each child
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Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.
Totally agree.
Personal situation:
Have 1 12yr old and 1 30mth old here.
Childcare in wolves is non existant, so swmnbo has to stay home for the kids. does that make her lazy
if you think so, then you need to go back and think again
Just because I'm working for home now, Does that make me lazy.
I get up and do what I need to do. I'm in a privalidged situation. I can work and spend time with the family.
My wife looks after the children so good on her of course.
Hmm two parents who care about them - lucky children
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. There were people in a same sized room with five children. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And it went on and on and on. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery. Not such a wonderful system perhaps. And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.
A lot of points you have made here are valid, and for the majority of people it is fair to say that they share your view,
I used to live in Bristol in the 80's and 90's, i knew a lot of people who came from a background that believed that the social system would support them throughout their 'working' life, however for them 'working' meant living off the social system, in school they were happy to admit that they had zero intention of getting a job and talking to a few friends it would seem a lot of them fulfilled that prophecy
I have seen girls/women get pregnant just for the purpose of gaining social housing, at that point they then realise that the flat they envisaged is in fact a grotty B&B that is full to the rafters with others in the same situation, and so the cycle starts or continues dependant upon that persons asperations/peers/upbringing/ and many other variables.
There is a social group who feel that they have a right to take from the state, this is the group that concern me, the risk of 'breeding childen of the same mindset' then creates more issues and so it snowballs to a point where the social network can't support everyone because there are more people taking that they are giving to the network.
I don't believe that everyone who uses the social system should be tarred with the same brush, given the current financial situation i would imagine that there are more and more people who will be reliant upon it, it could happen to one of us, its how people use that helps and move forward with their lives that makes them and their children different.
I could talk for hours about this as it is a subject close to my heart. The social concept is excellent, its just the freeloaders who have corrupted the system and made other people then feel bad about using it when they have a right to do so
One of my worries
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I was not flinging anything, but I live near social housing and the range of people is interesting.
There are people with no jobs and newish cars, with loads of children, there are people trying to do their best.
Parents need to instill respect in their children
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I was not flinging anything, but I live near social housing and the range of people is interesting.
There are people with no jobs and newish cars, with loads of children, there are people trying to do their best.
Parents need to instill respect in their children
Martin, I feel the discussion has been interesting, with different viewpoints aired -- so well worthwhile -- we remained "adult" too (so far!)
Your last point is the crux, I think, and applies to all parents of whatever background or current situation. However, sadly, this doesn't happen.
We are already a generation or two into that "state will provide, don't need to get off my backside" mindset Jay referred to :-/
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If you go back a couple of hundred years you will find that the population was made up of approx 1% knobs and 99% peasants......there was none of what we now call the middle classes.
The victorian era bought about the rise of the middle classes ..with the start of small business and budding entrepreneurs....so then you had maybe 1% knobs....20% middle classes.....80% working classes..Who were named as such ...because in the main they worked...caused few problems and bought up their children as best they could with the limited income they earned.
In 2008 We still only have about 1% knobs but the middle classes have swollen enormously......perhaps 60% of the population could now be classed as well....middle class.(If you own your own house ...then you are middle class.)
The working class seems to have vanished...and been replaced by an underclass.In my opinion the old working classes and the new underclass are NOT the same people and do not have the same Attitude to work.
So who are this underclass...well...... several generations all unemployed, where a life time on benefits is seen as normal.
They tend to produce children who achieve little and then as adults have a lifetime on benefits...just like their parents before them..think Shameless meets Karen/Shannon Matthews. I think that sometimes these people are poorly educated and find it hard to make ends meet...so sometimes benefits are seen as the only option. :y :y
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Just caught up with the thread, personally I dont see any difference from what I read in this thread to the situation when I started work in a local factory over 30 years ago.
Every time time a girl got pregnant a comment of "annother council house spoken for" went round the factory, they all did it as no one could afford to get on the housing ladder then as the wages were crap.
Other area's I cannot comment on, but sadly that was the truth then.
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I see in the near future people will be asking license from the govt to
make children.. And many bad scenarious is likely to happen..
But contradictory the govts behave like they are not on earth and
far away from responsibility ..For all of these people regardless of
country, theres not enough home,food,school,road and many things
vital for a human to live .. :(
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If you go back a couple of hundred years you will find that the population was made up of approx 1% knobs and 99% peasants......there was none of what we now call the middle classes.
The victorian era bought about the rise of the middle classes ..with the start of small business and budding entrepreneurs....so then you had maybe 1% knobs....20% middle classes.....80% working classes..Who were named as such ...because in the main they worked...caused few problems and bought up their children as best they could with the limited income they earned.
In 2008 We still only have about 1% knobs but the middle classes have swollen enormously......perhaps 60% of the population could now be classed as well....middle class.(If you own your own house ...then you are middle class.)
The working class seems to have vanished...and been replaced by an underclass.In my opinion the old working classes and the new underclass are NOT the same people and do not have the same Attitude to work.
So who are this underclass...well...... several generations all unemployed, where a life time on benefits is seen as normal.
They tend to produce children who achieve little and then as adults have a lifetime on benefits...just like their parents before them..think Shameless meets Karen/Shannon Matthews. I think that sometimes these people are poorly educated and find it hard to make ends meet...so sometimes benefits are seen as the only option. :y :y
Its interesting where this thread is going and the views that people are putting forward.
I'm interested by the working class/middle class comments, i still see myself as working class, by virtue of the face that i work, yes i own my own home, but i don't consider myself to be in a position of being middle class.
and yet it could be said that having a class system has brought this perception about, mention of an 'underclass' is interesting and an expression i have heard a few times over the years as a reference to those who have opted out of the working system by choice
Attitude to work is something i agree with wholeheartedly, people today do have a different work ethic, maybe not the generation that we came from but certainly later generations, however this is not exclusively an age related thing. Todays' employees possibly don't have loyalty (but then neither does the employer), the willingness to want the company they work for to succeed isn't there either.
where do you stop analysing? where did it all start and more importantly how do you reverse/improve the situation so people do get off their a$$es and do something that contributes to society in a positive way
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Just caught up with the thread, personally I dont see any difference from what I read in this thread to the situation when I started work in a local factory over 30 years ago.
Every time time a girl got pregnant a comment of "annother council house spoken for" went round the factory, they all did it as no one could afford to get on the housing ladder then as the wages were crap.
Other area's I cannot comment on, but sadly that was the truth then.
it could be said that this still goes onto day, however social housing schemes are looked at more than the local council
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If you go back a couple of hundred years you will find that the population was made up of approx 1% knobs and 99% peasants......there was none of what we now call the middle classes.
The victorian era bought about the rise of the middle classes ..with the start of small business and budding entrepreneurs....so then you had maybe 1% knobs....20% middle classes.....80% working classes..Who were named as such ...because in the main they worked...caused few problems and bought up their children as best they could with the limited income they earned.
In 2008 We still only have about 1% knobs but the middle classes have swollen enormously......perhaps 60% of the population could now be classed as well....middle class.(If you own your own house ...then you are middle class.)
The working class seems to have vanished...and been replaced by an underclass.In my opinion the old working classes and the new underclass are NOT the same people and do not have the same Attitude to work.
So who are this underclass...well...... several generations all unemployed, where a life time on benefits is seen as normal.
They tend to produce children who achieve little and then as adults have a lifetime on benefits...just like their parents before them..think Shameless meets Karen/Shannon Matthews. I think that sometimes these people are poorly educated and find it hard to make ends meet...so sometimes benefits are seen as the only option. :y :y
The fact is that the mass employment of heavy industry has all virtually been moved abroad by the effects of economic globalization and the movement of skills combined with the demands for lower production costs.
Our Country and the World generally has moved on. The 'mass' employment opportunites now are in light industry, the service sectors, IT, higher technologies, or public services, etc, where mostly you need qualifications, skills and a good all round ability to develop yourself.
An unfortunate number of youngsters leave school without any of these attributes and as there are very few industries that will engage those who can just 'labour', that generation and future ones just get left in a 'rut', either unable to find work for their limited abilities, or deciding just to 'drop out', feeling that the state, which they believe has created the situation they are in, 'owes' them a living. They are the disenfranchised! :( :(
Not good for them along with any families they produce / bring up, and certainly not good for the Country! :( >:( >:(
A new Political direction with initiatives in education, commerce and industry is required to create a situation where everyone can feel part of our society, no matter from what back ground they are from, and are happy to fully contribute to it using their full potential, giving them maximum rewards for their labour, without State assistance unless they are ill or truely require welfare for genuine reasons. ;)
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The problem is today people are not rewarded for working -- all the perceived rewards go to those that do not work! As mentioned in an earlier post, when I was made redundant I would have been far better off, financially, had I signed on the dole. However "pride", I guess, made me find work ..... ANY work and be out of pocket.
There ARE jobs out there -- maybe the funds used to pay benefits to the habitually unemployed would be better directed at topping up low wages to a decent level -- the condition for getting the top ups is that you work!
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If you go back a couple of hundred years you will find that the population was made up of approx 1% knobs and 99% peasants......there was none of what we now call the middle classes.
The victorian era bought about the rise of the middle classes ..with the start of small business and budding entrepreneurs....so then you had maybe 1% knobs....20% middle classes.....80% working classes..Who were named as such ...because in the main they worked...caused few problems and bought up their children as best they could with the limited income they earned.
In 2008 We still only have about 1% knobs but the middle classes have swollen enormously......perhaps 60% of the population could now be classed as well....middle class.(If you own your own house ...then you are middle class.)
The working class seems to have vanished...and been replaced by an underclass.In my opinion the old working classes and the new underclass are NOT the same people and do not have the same Attitude to work.
So who are this underclass...well...... several generations all unemployed, where a life time on benefits is seen as normal.
They tend to produce children who achieve little and then as adults have a lifetime on benefits...just like their parents before them..think Shameless meets Karen/Shannon Matthews. I think that sometimes these people are poorly educated and find it hard to make ends meet...so sometimes benefits are seen as the only option. :y :y
Its interesting where this thread is going and the views that people are putting forward.
I'm interested by the working class/middle class comments, i still see myself as working class, by virtue of the face that i work, yes i own my own home, but i don't consider myself to be in a position of being middle class.
and yet it could be said that having a class system has brought this perception about, mention of an 'underclass' is interesting and an expression i have heard a few times over the years as a reference to those who have opted out of the working system by choice
Attitude to work is something i agree with wholeheartedly, people today do have a different work ethic, maybe not the generation that we came from but certainly later generations, however this is not exclusively an age related thing. Todays' employees possibly don't have loyalty (but then neither does the employer), the willingness to want the company they work for to succeed isn't there either.
where do you stop analysing? where did it all start and more importantly how do you reverse/improve the situation so people do get off their a$$es and do something that contributes to society in a positive way
How we see ourselves....and how we would be shown as a statistic on a form are probably not the same.
You may well see yourself as "working class"....but would probably be categorised as "middle class"
John Prescott may see himself as working class....but...... :y :y
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Anyone who thinks that a person would have a child for the increase of possibly £10 a week in Child benefit and £40 in child tax credits.., does not live in the real world. Children cost much more than that to bring up a week. I have tried to live on benefits and well, lets say there was a lot of baked beans on toast and air for me in our meals. Remember u have to keep a household running as well, provide extra warmth for the little one's too. There is this 'myth' that people regard having children as an income booster.., and I must admit it makes me a little peeved because my heart totally sank when I realised I was pregnant with my second child. Benefits DO NOT permit u to live a life of riley however many children u do or do not have.
As for having children to secure housing. Have the writers ever lived in a small dirty single room (till I cleaned the entire floor containing 5 other units) hostel, waiting for a council place.., to be told I'd be waiting 2 years - if I was lucky. There were people in a same sized room with five children. It wasn't a pleasant experience. And it went on and on and on. U seem to think there is an abundance of social housing available .., there isn't. And having children is not an automatic lift up the list. I was ill, had one child and pregnant with another and still was facing a two year wait.
I know there are a lot of judgements made about people with children.., on benefits.., but I am afraid when u look at the reality of the situation of a single/multi parented family on benefits, it just doesn't bear up. I live in a deprived estate with over 300 families on the estate and I don't know a single family that deliberately has had children to gain a house or benefits. They would all far far rather have some self respect, a job and so on. Without exception. But childcare absence here makes that very difficult.
And as for the wonderful chinese system of 'fining' people who do not have a licence for children (u have to have a licence for even one child).., people still get unwanted pregnancies there and then because there is no way they can pay the fines the babies get sold.., girl babies often into a life of slavery. Not such a wonderful system perhaps. And of course, the one's who suffer most are the children themselves who are the least 'guilty' party.
A lot of points you have made here are valid, and for the majority of people it is fair to say that they share your view,
I used to live in Bristol in the 80's and 90's, i knew a lot of people who came from a background that believed that the social system would support them throughout their 'working' life, however for them 'working' meant living off the social system, in school they were happy to admit that they had zero intention of getting a job and talking to a few friends it would seem a lot of them fulfilled that prophecy
I have seen girls/women get pregnant just for the purpose of gaining social housing, at that point they then realise that the flat they envisaged is in fact a grotty B&B that is full to the rafters with others in the same situation, and so the cycle starts or continues dependant upon that persons asperations/peers/upbringing/ and many other variables.
There is a social group who feel that they have a right to take from the state, this is the group that concern me, the risk of 'breeding childen of the same mindset' then creates more issues and so it snowballs to a point where the social network can't support everyone because there are more people taking that they are giving to the network.
I don't believe that everyone who uses the social system should be tarred with the same brush, given the current financial situation i would imagine that there are more and more people who will be reliant upon it, it could happen to one of us, its how people use that helps and move forward with their lives that makes them and their children different.
I could talk for hours about this as it is a subject close to my heart. The social concept is excellent, its just the freeloaders who have corrupted the system and made other people then feel bad about using it when they have a right to do so
i can't be bothered to read through the rest of this because the root has been discovered above ::)
what worries me is if this recesion becomes serious there's going to be even less giving and many more taking :-/
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Most of us are members of the area between working class and middle class. However I feel the class system is outmoded and was put in place to keep us there.
As to encoraging work - definately, I have done duff jobs while unemployed to be able to live and survive.
As SWNMBOB has seen I have NOTHING against social housing or people from broken homes, all I am concerned about are children being brought up right and for them to respect other people and themselves, unfortunately there is an underclass developing with no respect and depending on benefits rather than trying to better themselves. My worry is what will happen if a large number of children end up like this.
I fully agree with social mobility - anyone can improve themselves, and as I have stated some of my grandparents lived in council houses and I grew up in a mobile home. Some of my ancestors were middle class some working class, and some working class who mixed daily with upper class who treated them as equals.
I do like the way there is no shouting and heatedness in this discussion, I have seen places where there would be swearing!!
But think about this, the cars we drive are cars which encourage upwards social mobility :)
Not working, parents who stay home to look after their children I think is good, Sue does this but wants a part time job.
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Benefits - social safety net - as used by me on a few occasions and repaid many many times over
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My two pence worth.
If you are a single Mum or Dad or a couple on benefit and have a council house you should give something back in return i.e if you are a couple, mum or dad should be made to get a job, if a job can't be found then they should earn their benefit in the community, shopping/gardening for pensioners, cleaning streets ect. Once the child is old enough to go the school then the other partner should also go and work in the community to earn the benefit they receive.
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Benefits - social safety net - as used by me on a few occasions and repaid many many times over
Yes me too on 2 occassions when made redundant but not how the system is being used by the majority >:(
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My two pence worth.
If you are a single Mum or Dad or a couple on benefit and have a council house you should give something back in return i.e if you are a couple, mum or dad should be made to get a job, if a job can't be found then they should earn their benefit in the community, shopping/gardening for pensioners, cleaning streets ect. Once the child is old enough to go the school then the other partner should also go and work in the community to earn the benefit they receive.
Here Here! Well said! :y
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While unemployed I did a community programme for unemployed people - I worked on a preserved railway :y
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plus the 700,000 extra government jobs which have been created in the last decade.
how will the taxpayers keep supporting them and their index linked pensions,when there will be less taxpayers earning less money.The figures cant possibly add up.
I read a report last week which said that the average private sector employee is now paying more of their earnings into the public sector pension fund than they are paying into their own,if true its rather outrageous. >:(
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I feel ( perhaps incorrectly ) that many no-earners reproduce as a means to increase benefits and secure housing. Also declining educational standards leads to the inability to read the instructions on contraceptives !
A family near me have 8 kids and counting and neither parent has worked a day in their life (both under 30) They have the children for the money
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I have read this thread with some interest, and feel that many of the points made are valid, as some are drawn from experience rather than subjective generalisations. I just really wanted to put in an additional point of view, it is too big a subject to cover in any detail on here, and to solve the problem I would have to become partly un PC and bring back some form of National Service, not necessarily Military, for school leaver without work I feel that the government should have schemes where benefits are only paid in exchange for some form of labour, whatever that might be, to individuals, use their strengths or interests. :)
I tend to think we still have a ‘working Class, but as has been said we seem to have developed a ‘Non Working Class’ that is worryingly 2nd and even 3rd generation. I, as others, have know young men, 25 years ago who had no intention of ever working, one even saying to me that ‘it was my fault that I chose to work and pay tax to keep him on the dole’ never had much to do with him after that. :-X
Working Class families have traditionally been larger, goes back to survival rates of children and later more money coming into the family as the children went out to work. What we have now is something different, and is increasing in the Non Working Class family and increasingly with young single mothers. Government has spent millions over last few years on teenage pregnancy and yet it remains on the increase. :P :P
Whilst some girls may get pregnant for a property, others do it for what a baby and young child can give, ‘Unconditional Love’ perhaps filling a need in the mother that has not previously been met. The child gets to 5 or 6 and starts to make demands, so off to find another lad to have another baby, all that love again. ::) ::) ::)
Just a couple of my thoughts. :D
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very perceptive Mike.
I agree about the work /national service idea, as long as they werent sent to far flung lands as cannon fodder. I think the idea should be to instil self respect/respect for others and a strong work ethic.
warfare should be for volunteers imo. :y
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The problem is today people are not rewarded for working -- all the perceived rewards go to those that do not work! As mentioned in an earlier post, when I was made redundant I would have been far better off, financially, had I signed on the dole. However "pride", I guess, made me find work ..... ANY work and be out of pocket.
There ARE jobs out there -- maybe the funds used to pay benefits to the habitually unemployed would be better directed at topping up low wages to a decent level -- the condition for getting the top ups is that you work!
Just got back to this and I have to aggree with you HC.
In the greater scheme of things yes you are better off BUT in the day to day living expences, food etc, not perscriptions, glasses, rent, council tax, etc, things can be very tight, but it is the mind set of the individual and the self pride that makes all the difference.
My opinion
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OOOOOOH just seen the 'drives the supermiggy' thing u put .., its MY SUPERMIGGY.
boy, u are in B I G T R O U B L E
:y :y :y :y :y :y :y :P
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government announced changes to incapacity benefit system today
The intended purpose being to put 1 million people back into work.
What planet are these people living on ? ::)
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Stupid or lazy people should not be allowed to procreate.
Too late I've already got 2.
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government announced changes to incapacity benefit system today
The intended purpose being to put 1 million people back into work.
What planet are these people living on ? ::)
A "professional " benefit claimant in our street, 42 years old, who has not worked for 11 years, has recently been taken off incapacity benefit and told to look for work. He is younger, fitter and much more physically able than myself, has the best garden in the street ( he recently re-turfed it, himself, despite the bad back which has prevented him from working ) and is totally gutted that he has to look for work. Now the funny bit, he has suddenly developed a limp,noticed it when he was walking to the shop for lager supplies, we were in fits of laughter yesterday as the limp cures itself when he is in his garden playing with the kids.
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My two pence worth.
If you are a single Mum or Dad or a couple on benefit and have a council house you should give something back in return i.e if you are a couple, mum or dad should be made to get a job, if a job can't be found then they should earn their benefit in the community, shopping/gardening for pensioners, cleaning streets ect. Once the child is old enough to go the school then the other partner should also go and work in the community to earn the benefit they receive.
Here Here! Well said! :y
This is the krux of the issue. As soon as you give something to someone without expecting anything in return you breed the type of slob that become "career" benefit recipients (and they do exist, and do have kids to increase their benefits).
Everyone has the potential to do something gainful with their lives. Even if its' value is not in proportion to what they recieve they must get out of bed in the morning knowing they have to do something worthwhile to support their family.
In addition, as said, the system currently punishes recipients for the first steps off benefits and into work, and that is madness.
Kids are the innocent parties in this, and I wouldn't like to see them suffer as punishment for adults having kids they can't support. It's therefore a delicate situation in terms of how we fix it but the incentive to have kids to gain benefits must be removed somehow. Maybe the state should plough the money into free childcare while the parents go out to earn their benefits?
Kevin
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My two pence worth.
If you are a single Mum or Dad or a couple on benefit and have a council house you should give something back in return i.e if you are a couple, mum or dad should be made to get a job, if a job can't be found then they should earn their benefit in the community, shopping/gardening for pensioners, cleaning streets ect. Once the child is old enough to go the school then the other partner should also go and work in the community to earn the benefit they receive.
Here Here! Well said! :y
This is the krux of the issue. As soon as you give something to someone without expecting anything in return you breed the type of slob that become "career" benefit recipients (and they do exist, and do have kids to increase their benefits).
Everyone has the potential to do something gainful with their lives. Even if its' value is not in proportion to what they recieve they must get out of bed in the morning knowing they have to do something worthwhile to support their family.
In addition, as said, the system currently punishes recipients for the first steps off benefits and into work, and that is madness.
Kids are the innocent parties in this, and I wouldn't like to see them suffer as punishment for adults having kids they can't support. It's therefore a delicate situation in terms of how we fix it but the incentive to have kids to gain benefits must be removed somehow. Maybe the state should plough the money into free childcare while the parents go out to earn their benefits?
Kevin
They don't really need to, the parents that genuinely can't work should have the relavent checks done and they can look after children freeing up the people who can work, all in return for their benefits ;)
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My two pence worth.
If you are a single Mum or Dad or a couple on benefit and have a council house you should give something back in return i.e if you are a couple, mum or dad should be made to get a job, if a job can't be found then they should earn their benefit in the community, shopping/gardening for pensioners, cleaning streets ect. Once the child is old enough to go the school then the other partner should also go and work in the community to earn the benefit they receive.
Here Here! Well said! :y
This is the krux of the issue. As soon as you give something to someone without expecting anything in return you breed the type of slob that become "career" benefit recipients (and they do exist, and do have kids to increase their benefits).
Everyone has the potential to do something gainful with their lives. Even if its' value is not in proportion to what they recieve they must get out of bed in the morning knowing they have to do something worthwhile to support their family.
In addition, as said, the system currently punishes recipients for the first steps off benefits and into work, and that is madness.
Kids are the innocent parties in this, and I wouldn't like to see them suffer as punishment for adults having kids they can't support. It's therefore a delicate situation in terms of how we fix it but the incentive to have kids to gain benefits must be removed somehow. Maybe the state should plough the money into free childcare while the parents go out to earn their benefits?
Kevin
So what will you do when that time comes, childcare or stay at home mum?
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I agree, I did do many hours of voluntary work until my two year old arrived as my older son was in school. It was easier (and they were more understanding) if issues with my older son came about and I needed to spend time sorting things out.
Once my younger son arrived, it became impossible to do voluntary work so I had to give it all up, altho I did try to maintain it for a few weeks after he was born.
Having access to some form of childcare would make it far easier to keep up the 'working habit' and help prevent the degrading of confidence that can happen once in the benefit system. Who know's could actually lead to a job too (does happen occasionally).
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So what will you do when that time comes, childcare or stay at home mum?
Personally I consider myself lucky that, when I was growing up in the 70's, my parents were in a position where my Mum could give up her career, my parents were willing to give up "keeping up with the jones'" and I was looked after by my Mum. I think that's the ideal situation and I couldn't have wished for a better upbringing.
People want it all these days, though Kids, career, 2 brand new cars on the driveway, etc.... We have friends where one partner is working solely to keep the kid(s) in childcare. Seems like madness to me. Holding on to a career at the expense of your kids seeing their parents for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. :-/
We haven't really been prepared to make either compromise so maybe the time won't come.
Kevin
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So what will you do when that time comes, childcare or stay at home mum?
Personally I consider myself lucky that, when I was growing up in the 70's, my parents were in a position where my Mum could give up her career, my parents were willing to give up "keeping up with the jones'" and I was looked after by my Mum. I think that's the ideal situation and I couldn't have wished for a better upbringing.
People want it all these days, though Kids, career, 2 brand new cars on the driveway, etc.... We have friends where one partner is working solely to keep the kid(s) in childcare. Seems like madness to me. Holding on to a career at the expense of your kids seeing their parents for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. :-/
We haven't really been prepared to make either compromise so maybe the time won't come.
Kevin
You haven't been married that long so your wifes body hasn't started the broody stage, but it would be a pity if you denied a child the fun of learning about electronics or working on a car.
As to working and childcare - no point working unless you make a profit over staying at home. BUT it will make it easy to stay in the job market place as Sue is now finding out
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So what will you do when that time comes, childcare or stay at home mum?
Personally I consider myself lucky that, when I was growing up in the 70's, my parents were in a position where my Mum could give up her career, my parents were willing to give up "keeping up with the jones'" and I was looked after by my Mum. I think that's the ideal situation and I couldn't have wished for a better upbringing.
People want it all these days, though Kids, career, 2 brand new cars on the driveway, etc.... We have friends where one partner is working solely to keep the kid(s) in childcare. Seems like madness to me. Holding on to a career at the expense of your kids seeing their parents for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. :-/
We haven't really been prepared to make either compromise so maybe the time won't come.
Kevin
Therein lies the root of so many problems.I will probably get shot for saying so, but when mums traditionally stayed at home and provided childcare as nature intended,there were far fewer youth related problems than we have nowadays.
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some very interesting posts on here. :)
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So what will you do when that time comes, childcare or stay at home mum?
Personally I consider myself lucky that, when I was growing up in the 70's, my parents were in a position where my Mum could give up her career, my parents were willing to give up "keeping up with the jones'" and I was looked after by my Mum. I think that's the ideal situation and I couldn't have wished for a better upbringing.
People want it all these days, though Kids, career, 2 brand new cars on the driveway, etc.... We have friends where one partner is working solely to keep the kid(s) in childcare. Seems like madness to me. Holding on to a career at the expense of your kids seeing their parents for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. :-/
We haven't really been prepared to make either compromise so maybe the time won't come.
Kevin
Therein lies the root of so many problems.I will probably get shot for saying so, but when mums traditionally stayed at home and provided childcare as nature intended,there were far fewer youth related problems than we have nowadays.[/quote]
Although very non-PC, probably very true. Whilst I do think that mums should be able to work if they so wish, I also believe that many mums work because they have to. For some strange reason society has stopped believing that rearing a happy, healthy family is a job in it's own right and, as we are seeing, of vital importance to society as a whole. Some women feel that being a good mother is unfulfilling --- I am not a mum, so am unable to comment.