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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 13:04:07

Title: V6 spark plugs
Post by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 13:04:07
Car went in for major 20,000 mile service this morning and I assumed it would also mean a spark plug change. However, my mechanic just phoned me to say that they are platinum plugs and only need replacing every 80,000 miles and as they were replaced 35,000 miles ago, did I still want them replacing. :o

Something I wasn't aware of but at least it'll save me a few quid.

Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 20 November 2008, 13:08:08
platinum or not I never see a spark plug going 80,000 miles..

will degrade the performance and consume more petrol imho.. :-/
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 13:11:12
Quote
platinum or not I never see a spark plug going 80,000 miles..
will degrade the performance and consume more petrol imho.. :-/

Thats what I thought Cem, so I'll get them changed on the next service.
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 20 November 2008, 13:11:39
Quote
platinum or not I never see a spark plug going 80,000 miles..will degrade the performance and consume more petrol imho.. :-/

Yes indeed Cem, and by then they will be well clogged whatever they are made of!! ::) ::) :D ;)
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Jimbob on 20 November 2008, 13:13:04
Assuming they are all in the same condidtion!

When we bought Ljay's MV6, there was a recent invoice for plugs...

I double checked....They had done the easy side but not the passenger side!

Needless to say 6 new ones went in!

Robbing Vauxhall Gits!

Youve already paid for em to be checked...cant be much more for new ones at that point ;)
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 20 November 2008, 13:21:08
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 20 November 2008, 13:25:26
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 20 November 2008, 13:26:56
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y

yep..but to do that I need more money :D
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Kevin Wood on 20 November 2008, 13:39:10
Not sure they are platinum, TBH. :-/

They are Bosch style 4 electrode jobs. He is right to say that the service schedule states 80k but I would be inclined to change them at 40k, TBH. At the minimum they need to be checked to ensure that haven't worked loose, and for the price of them (3 quid each, or so, IIRC) you may as well change them if you're going to go to the trouble of getting to them.

Kevin
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 November 2008, 13:58:21
The plugs will do 80K miles without issue.

What I do find is that they work loose before this happens!

And they are not platinum, they just have 4 electrodes so in theory last 4 times longer
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 15:10:38
Quote
The plugs will do 80K miles without issue.

What I do find is that they work loose before this happens!

And they are not platinum, they just have 4 electrodes so in theory last 4 times longer

What would happen if one or several were to come loose? Loss of compression and performance I assume - anything else? Not that I'm experiencing this as the engine is still running sweet even before the service, but it would be good to know.
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 November 2008, 15:11:40
It would run like Mick Dundees (did)
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 15:13:54
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It would run like Mick Dundees (did)

Yeah, but then he runs his on single malt!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Kevin Wood on 20 November 2008, 15:14:19
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Quote
The plugs will do 80K miles without issue.

What I do find is that they work loose before this happens!

And they are not platinum, they just have 4 electrodes so in theory last 4 times longer

What would happen if one or several were to come loose? Loss of compression and performance I assume - anything else? Not that I'm experiencing this as the engine is still running sweet even before the service, but it would be good to know.

Happened to Tunnie recently. Yes, loss of compression but, more worryingly, the plug can overheat due to the reduced ability for it to conduct heat through the threads into the cylinder head, and it can break up.

As said, well worth checking they are correctly torqued.

Kevin
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 20 November 2008, 15:23:17
Quote
The plugs will do 80K miles without issue.

What I do find is that they work loose before this happens!

And they are not platinum, they just have 4 electrodes so in theory last 4 times longer

As the professor says 80K miles is normal..I searched net a bit..

general acceptance is that if you make short trips and environment is

dirty, change early  :-/
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Martin_1962 on 20 November 2008, 15:30:30
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 20 November 2008, 16:03:54
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platinum or not I never see a spark plug going 80,000 miles..will degrade the performance and consume more petrol imho.. :-/

Yes indeed Cem, and by then they will be well clogged whatever they are made of!! ::) ::) :D ;)

If a V6 is clogging plugs, then it probably needs more than just a service  ::)

80k is too much in my opinion, I'm happier with 40k.

Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 20 November 2008, 16:04:59
If you've just gone in for a 20k service Bob, that cambelt can't be too far away by now  ;D  :P
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 16:07:37
Quote
If you've just gone in for a 20k service Bob, that cambelt can't be too far away by now  ;D  :P

Another 20k to go James. :y
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 20 November 2008, 16:09:05
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Quote
If you've just gone in for a 20k service Bob, that cambelt can't be too far away by now  ;D  :P

Another 20k to go James. :y

Blimey...

On the spark plug issue mate, I would personally be really unhappy with it.

I bet they just couldn't be arsed to get the coil packs out....
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 16:14:23
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If you've just gone in for a 20k service Bob, that cambelt can't be too far away by now  ;D  :P

Another 20k to go James. :y

Blimey...

On the spark plug issue mate, I would personally be really unhappy with it.

I bet they just couldn't be arsed to get the coil packs out....

They were actually quite prepared to go ahead and do it but as I know the guys there really well, they were trying to save me a bit of money on the extra labour charge and wanted my decision. :y As I'm a bit skint, I've now told them to leave them until next intermediate service.
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 20 November 2008, 16:15:22
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If you've just gone in for a 20k service Bob, that cambelt can't be too far away by now  ;D  :P

Another 20k to go James. :y

Blimey...

On the spark plug issue mate, I would personally be really unhappy with it.

I bet they just couldn't be arsed to get the coil packs out....

They were actually quite prepared to go ahead and do it but as I know the guys there really well, they were trying to save me a bit of money on the extra labour charge and wanted my decision. :y As I'm a bit skint, I've now told them to leave them until next intermediate service.

Ah, in that case it's not so bad - I retract my comment

Must stop being so cynical about garages....  ;D
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: bob.dent on 20 November 2008, 16:20:29
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If you've just gone in for a 20k service Bob, that cambelt can't be too far away by now  ;D  :P

Another 20k to go James. :y

Blimey...

On the spark plug issue mate, I would personally be really unhappy with it.

I bet they just couldn't be arsed to get the coil packs out....

They were actually quite prepared to go ahead and do it but as I know the guys there really well, they were trying to save me a bit of money on the extra labour charge and wanted my decision. :y As I'm a bit skint, I've now told them to leave them until next intermediate service.

Ah, in that case it's not so bad - I retract my comment

Must stop being so cynical about garages....  ;D

Can't say I blame you for that James, there's not many out there that I trust to work on my Mig. ;)
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 20 November 2008, 16:33:11
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: markfree on 20 November 2008, 16:42:46
Quote
Posted by: Marks DTM Calib Posted on: Today at 13:58
The plugs will do 80K miles without issue.

What I do find is that they work loose before this happens!

And they are not platinum, they just have 4 electrodes so in theory last 4 times longer  

On my old renault safrane I blew a spark plug out (probably because I didn't tighten the sparky enough) - was towing the van at the time - going up steep hill with foot to floor suddenly mighty big bang - thought I'd blown a ring/valve - but engine kept going altho' made a mighty racket - towed the van  30 miles home on 3 cylinders which was a miracle - put new sparky in and engine ran as sweet as a nut but sad conclusion is that car is scrapped now :'( so now I've got a miggy :y
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 20 November 2008, 17:21:52
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y

ceramic coating comes to my mind if they are allowed..
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Martin_1962 on 20 November 2008, 18:17:34
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 20 November 2008, 18:21:03
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying

Blimey Martin, that really does put the engines under test then!! :o :o :o

Thanks :y :y
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: albitz on 21 November 2008, 01:14:54
I believe it is changing from 2 race meetings to 3 next season. :-/
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 21 November 2008, 08:31:17
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying

Blimey Martin, that really does put the engines under test then!! :o :o :o

Thanks :y :y


You wont find many formula one engines with piston rings....or cams come to that!
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: STMO123 on 21 November 2008, 09:06:06
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platinum or not I never see a spark plug going 80,000 miles..will degrade the performance and consume more petrol imho.. :-/

Yes indeed Cem, and by then they will be well clogged whatever they are made of!! ::) ::) :D ;)

If a V6 is clogging plugs, then it probably needs more than just a service  ::)

80k is too much in my opinion, I'm happier with 40k.


I remember you saying that the one I sold you needed plugs on the passenger side James. The car had a full service three months earlier and I was billed for six plugs.
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Martin_1962 on 21 November 2008, 10:41:08
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying

Blimey Martin, that really does put the engines under test then!! :o :o :o

Thanks :y :y


You wont find many formula one engines with piston rings....or cams come to that!


No rings - surprised.

No cams - how are they operated then - not pnuematic already!
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 21 November 2008, 11:59:09
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying

Blimey Martin, that really does put the engines under test then!! :o :o :o

Thanks :y :y


You wont find many formula one engines with piston rings....or cams come to that!


No rings - surprised.No cams - how are they operated then - not pnuematic already!

So am I Martin!! :o :o :o ;D ;D  

In this thread I am learning so much about what I just didn't know about F1 engines. 8-) 8-) 8-)  Absolutely fascinating!! :y :y

But.......how do F1 engines work without piston rings? :-? :-?

I know they work on very fine tolerances, but how is the side of the piston sealed between the cylinder, given heat and expansion, let alone the pure high pressure of compression? :-? :-? :-? :-?
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: albitz on 21 November 2008, 19:10:06
The valvegear has been pneumatic for several years now,dont know anything about the lack of piston rings though.
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 21 November 2008, 19:42:05
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying

Blimey Martin, that really does put the engines under test then!! :o :o :o

Thanks :y :y


You wont find many formula one engines with piston rings....or cams come to that!


No rings - surprised.

No cams - how are they operated then - not pnuematic already!

Yep.....its the only way to get the valve mass down to supoort the mega high revs.

Everything is such  tight tolerance on them they dont need rings.....they also wont turn over at all if cold (they need heating up first!).

You have to consier that Cosworth removed cylinder liners about 6-7 years ago......the coolant system runs at 6Bar to improve coling adn raise the boiling point....very advanced setups!
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: albitz on 21 November 2008, 21:35:39
Another way of achieving very high revs safely is Ducati,s desmodromic system (no valve springs) but afaik Ducati own the patents and wont allow anyone else to use it.
The thing about them not being able to turn over when cold rings a bell,they are technically "seized" until heated up enough to be able to turn over. :y
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 21 November 2008, 21:41:51
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying

Blimey Martin, that really does put the engines under test then!! :o :o :o

Thanks :y :y


You wont find many formula one engines with piston rings....or cams come to that!


No rings - surprised.

No cams - how are they operated then - not pnuematic already!

Yep.....its the only way to get the valve mass down to supoort the mega high revs.

Everything is such  tight tolerance on them they dont need rings.....they also wont turn over at all if cold (they need heating up first!).

You have to consier that Cosworth removed cylinder liners about 6-7 years ago......the coolant system runs at 6Bar to improve coling adn raise the boiling point....very advanced setups!

 :-? :o
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 21 November 2008, 21:43:07
Quote
Another way of achieving very high revs safely is Ducati,s desmodromic system (no valve springs) but afaik Ducati own the patents and wont allow anyone else to use it.
The thing about them not being able to turn over when cold rings a bell,they are technically "seized" until heated up enough to be able to turn over. :y

first time I hear..Need to google !!
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Andy B on 21 November 2008, 21:45:04
Quote
Quote
Another way of achieving very high revs safely is Ducati,s desmodromic system (no valve springs) but afaik Ducati own the patents and wont allow anyone else to use it.
The thing about them not being able to turn over when cold rings a bell,they are technically "seized" until heated up enough to be able to turn over. :y

first time I hear..Need to google !!

A cam to open & another cam to close the valves .
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: albitz on 21 November 2008, 21:47:28
Think its one rocker to open valve and another to close it. :-/
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 21 November 2008, 21:47:34
Quote
Quote
Quote
Another way of achieving very high revs safely is Ducati,s desmodromic system (no valve springs) but afaik Ducati own the patents and wont allow anyone else to use it.
The thing about them not being able to turn over when cold rings a bell,they are technically "seized" until heated up enough to be able to turn over. :y

first time I hear..Need to google !!

A cam to open & another cam to close the valves .

 :-[

Thanks :y



Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Martin_1962 on 21 November 2008, 21:48:33
Quote
The valvegear has been pneumatic for several years now,dont know anything about the lack of piston rings though.


I know they are pneumatically sprung but I thought a cam shaft operated them
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: Martin_1962 on 21 November 2008, 21:49:29
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Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Contradictory and funny, I know a mechanic friend (driving E36 M3) entering races everyweek ..

he changes the spark plugs and oil everyweek :o ;D ;D


For optimun performance no doubt, like F1 changes / rebuilds their engines after every race. :D :y :y


Not allowed to any more!


What :o :o :o  After all those laps at very high revs, with maximum strain placed on all the engine's components and they cannot rebuild or replace the engine?! Not even replace piston rings?! :o :o

How about when they blow up?  Also how does the engine survive a whole F1 season without major "treatment" after millions/billions of rev's?

I am amazed Martin! :o :o :o   Tell me what they now have to do please. :D :D ;) :y


2 races, with all practice and qualifying

Blimey Martin, that really does put the engines under test then!! :o :o :o

Thanks :y :y


You wont find many formula one engines with piston rings....or cams come to that!


No rings - surprised.

No cams - how are they operated then - not pnuematic already!

Yep.....its the only way to get the valve mass down to supoort the mega high revs.

Everything is such  tight tolerance on them they dont need rings.....they also wont turn over at all if cold (they need heating up first!).

You have to consier that Cosworth removed cylinder liners about 6-7 years ago......the coolant system runs at 6Bar to improve coling adn raise the boiling point....very advanced setups!


I know about the springing - but what opens the valves?

Surprised about lack of rings :o
Title: Re: V6 spark plugs
Post by: albitz on 21 November 2008, 21:49:34
Hence their v twin engines can compete with 4 cylinder engines. :y