Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 22 November 2008, 11:59:16
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In another thread (V6 Spark Plugs) a very interesting discussion developed on F1 engines, which I would love to develop so I can understand more about them and the fascinating technical developments that have taken place that I personnally did not have a clue about! :o :o ::)
Marks DTM raised the issue of F1 engines not requiring cams, which is one thing, but also stated they don't have piston rings either! :o :o :o
I made the point :
But.......how do F1 engines work without piston rings?
I know they work on very fine tolerances, but how is the side of the piston sealed between the cylinder, given heat and expansion, let alone the pure high pressure of compression?
Mark confirmed that they are built on very fine tollerances, but I need to understand how this works!
If I accept the engine are very tight at the start of a race, and as Mark says have to be warmed up to loosen them enough for the crank to turn, but what about after 70 laps say at very high engine revs? How can the surfaces between the cylinders and pistons remain tight enough to stop oil let alone pure pressures of compression forcing they way through in the wrong directions? :o :o :-?
I am also led to believe these engines cannot be replaced or even rebuilt between so many races in the season, so how the hell do the pistons and cylinders remain 'tight' enough with ineviatable wear that must take place, to stop taking place what piston rings on our cars do every day we use them? :-? :-? :-? :-?
I am absolutely fascinated by all this and am left wondering why, if this technolgy exists, standard engines cannot be built the same after solving perhaps the pre-heating issue! ::) ::) ::)
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Just been doing some more investigation into these engines and found a great site listing all the major F1 engines over the years:
http://www.allf1.info/map.php
This is the 2008 season BMW F1 engine:
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/bmwp86-8.jpg)
Type: P86/8
Year: 2008
Number of cylinders: 8
Configuration: 32 valves, 2 camshafts per row of cylinder, 90° vee
Weight: 95 kg
Capacity: 2398
RPM: 19000
and note it does have camshafts! ;)
To me it is not any where near as impressive as looking at a Rolls Royce 'Merlin' aero engine, and I prefere the sound of ithat as well!! 8-) 8-) 8-)
But I suppose I am just old fashioned! ;D ;)
:y :y :y
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Umm. Ford DFV. The original F1 engine :-*
(http://www.allf1.info/engines/photos/dfv.jpg)
Kevin
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Sorry to keep on about them but this has got me hooked!!
Just found some brilliant info on:
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5280.html
"Revving to 19,000 RPM, a modern Formula One engine will consume a phenomenal 650 litres of air every second, with race fuel consumption typically around the 75 l/100 km (4 mpg) mark. Revving at such massive speeds equates to an accelerative force on the pistons of nearly 9000 times gravity. Unsurprisingly, engine-related failures remain one of the most common causes of retirements in races.
Modern Formula One engines owe little except their fundamental design of cylinders, pistons and valves to road-car engines. The engine is a stressed component within the car, bolting to the carbon fibre 'tub' and having the transmission and rear suspension bolted to it in turn. Therefore it has to be enormously strong. A conflicting demand is that it should be light, compact and with its mass in as low a position as possible, to help reduce the car's centre of gravity and to enable the height of rear bodywork to be minimised.
The gearboxes of modern Formula One cars are now highly automated with drivers selecting gears via paddles fitted behind the steering wheel. The 'sequential' gearboxes used are very similar in principle to those of motorbikes, allowing gear changes to be made far faster than with the traditional ‘H’ gate selector, with the gearbox selectors operated electrically. Despite such high levels of technology, fully automatic transmission systems, and gearbox-related wizardry such as launch control, are illegal - a measure designed to keep costs down and place more emphasis on driver skill. Transmissions - most teams run seven-speed units - bolt directly to the back of the engine."
Still have not found anything on the real technical stuff regarding the design, specifications, or importantly draughtmans blue prints so I can understand how these engines work at 19,000 rpm!! ::) ::)
But I am still looking! ;D ;)
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More Info.........
This time explaining the 'Dry Sump' system employed on F1 engines:
"Dry sump lubrication in F1 engines
The dry sump lubrication system is a design that intends to lubricate the engine's internal parts to provide optimal performance of the engine itself. It is currently the best system for high performance engines and is widely used in Formula One, Le Mans, IRL and other well known racing series.
Lubrication systems for a four-stroke, reciprocating piston engine can be categorised in just two groups: the wet sump design and the dry sump system. Both systems rely on an oil reservoir from which oil is drawn with a pump and spread around the engine for lubrication and cooling purposes. All oil is then allowed to flow back to the reservoir from where the cycle restarts.
Wet sump lubrication is the most widely used system as it is more cost efficient and perfectly adequate for normal passenger vehicles. In this design, the oil of the engine is stored in a sump located under the crankshaft as an integral part of the engine block. The oil pans' capacity can range from 3 to 7 litre, depending on the engine's size and purpose. From this pan, the oil is pumped up a pick-up tube and supplied to the engine under pressure. A wet sump design has several advantages, including its low cost, low weight and its simplicity. Because the sump is an internal part of the engine, there is no need for tubes to circulate the oil from the reservoir to the engine, reducing chances of leaks.
Despite its advantages, a wet sump system is unsuitable for racing purposes.Formula One cars for example experience lateral G-forces of up to 3G in mid corner. Such centrifugal accelleration would pull all oil to one side of the sump, possibly leaving the engine without oil for a short period. The latter phenomenon is also known as oil starvation. When performance and reliability matter, such a situation is unacceptable. To resolve this issue, the dry sump system was designed and is now in use in all major racing series.
The dry sump system literally keeps the sump of the engine dry and allows for it to be produced small, giving a further advantage to lower the engine's centre of gravity and reduce its empty weight. The design differs from a wet sump in its external oil tank. Again, the oil is pumped into the engine at elevated pressure and then flows down to the engine's sump. While it was previously held there, the oil is now sucked away from the engine by one or more scavenger pumps, run by belts or gears from the crankshaft, usually at around half the crank speed.
In most designs, the oil reservoir is tall and narrow and specially designed with internal baffles. The pump itself consists of at least two stages with as many as 5 or 6. With two stages, one is for scavenging while the second is a pressure stage. The three-stage dry sump pump has one pressure section and two scavenge sections, while the four-stage pump has one pressure and three scavenge sections. The pressure section of each feeds oil to the block, while the scavenge sections pull oil from special pickups in the dry sump oil pan. The latter system is connected similar to the three stage while the extra line of the scavenge section is routed to pull oil from the lifter valley. This prevents excess oil to slosh in the top of the engine, reducing windages and increasing horsepower. In some cases, a fifth stage is added to provide extra suction in the crankcase area.
Application in Formula One
As mentioned, all current F1 engines include a dry sump system, quite simply because it is impossible to create a similar high revving engines with a wet sump system. Due to the engine freeze, all engines also have a similar layout as the fuel tank is located ahead of the engine, just behind the driver. The oil pump that rotates the oil through the engine is - as required by the regulations - driven by the crankshaft through gears.
One of the providers of the required high performing lubricants is Shell, the supplier of Ferrari. Shell Technology Manager for Ferrari, Dr. Lisa Lilley explains: “Engine lubricant is critical. The very lifeblood of the engine, its job is to protect the moving parts from mechanical wear, reduce friction and power loss and cool the engine as it endures extreme track conditions. It takes a good engine lubricant to achieve just the right balance of these characteristics, while ensuring the car’s performance is optimised, no energy is wasted and maximum power is delivered to the engine.”
The first job of Shell Helix is to protect all the moving parts that rub together from mechanical wear. The oil is fed to the bearings of the camshafts to lubricate, minimising friction and wear, thereby enhancing the engine’s reliability. The enormous forces required to open the valves quickly enough at 19,000 rev/min must also be transmitted through a lubricant effectively and without failure.
The engine is exposed to extreme conditions and high temperatures as it turns. The ‘multi-tasking’ lubricant is designed to take away the heat, controlling the engine temperature and preventing the heat from having a detrimental affect. The ability of an engine oil to cool as well as lubricate is often overlooked. Pistons can exceed temperatures of 300°C; engine oil is sprayed on the underside of the pistons to keep them cool - without this extra protection they would undoubtedly fail in a race.
“When you consider that the oil flow around the engine is faster than the speed of the Ferrari Formula One car, this gives you an idea of the extreme conditions in a Formula One engine,” says Dr. Lilley. “At Shell we have a team dedicated to tailoring Shell Helix engine oil for the Ferrari so that we can ensure reliability and protection but we can also guarantee the car is receiving the most horsepower possible.”
:y :y
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ran out of words, so just to add to the above........
For anyone interested in F1 engines in particular this site is great for gaining knowledge:
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/8766
with an explanation of oil distrubution in a running F1 engine. Fascinating!! 8-) 8-) 8-)
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ran out of words, so just to add to the above........
For anyone interested in F1 engines in particular this site is great for gaining knowledge:
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/8766
with an explanation of oil distrubution in a running F1 engine. Fascinating!! 8-) 8-) 8-)
I recken you ought to drop your Uni course and train up to be F1 pit crew ::) ::)
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On the hunt for info still on the "lack of piston ring factor" I have just come across this recent (8th August 2008) statement by Frank Williams that has now left me baffled! :-? :-? :-?
From the site:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69723
"Williams says engine suspicions unfounded
By Jonathan Noble Friday, August 8th 2008, 15:21 GMT
Formula One figures worried that their rivals have edged ahead in the power stakes despite the sport's engine freeze have no grounds for complaints, claims veteran team boss Frank Williams.
Renault boss Flavio Briatore prompted big discussions about the possibility of teams exploiting the engine freeze when he suggested his team had lost out by not developing their engine.
"Renault have stuck to the letter of the current regulations on frozen engines, and we've been buggered: others didn't do that and are far ahead, while we suffer," he told Gazzetta dello Sport. "It's not fair."
Despite Briatore's comments, his manufacturer rivals all dismissed claims that improvements they had made were outside the spirit of the freeze.
Williams said he believed some teams had made advances with their engines since the freeze began, but did not feel any of the work was a deliberate bid to get around the regulations.
"It is a sensitive subject," admitted Williams. "This is purely anecdotal, second or even third hand, but there is a story that one of the Red Bull drivers jumped out of his Renault car and drove the Ferrari car and said, 'bloody hell!' True or false, I don't know. And that is not to point the figure at Ferrari.
"How it works is that you blueprint your engine when you first run it, you send the blueprint in and the FIA keep it. Then, if halfway through (the season) your piston rings are causing you trouble and you've broken so many, you can request, with evidence, that you are in trouble and the FIA will let you change the piston ring, or this or that.
"I think some people are braver than others, saying, 'this has gone wrong and I need to change it.' No one is cheating, but some people are better at bending the rules and knowing where to stop bending, than people who would never dream of even trying to squeeze something."
When asked if he felt there were any grounds for a complaint to be lodged with the FIA, Williams said: "We have not the slightest reason at all. Some engines are better than others, but that is life."
If piston rings are not used in F1 now, why is Williams making this point?? :-? :-?::) ::) ;)
Baffled!! ;)
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ran out of words, so just to add to the above........
For anyone interested in F1 engines in particular this site is great for gaining knowledge:
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/8766
with an explanation of oil distrubution in a running F1 engine. Fascinating!! 8-) 8-) 8-)
I recken you ought to drop your Uni course and train up to be F1 pit crew ::) ::)
I tell you what Skruntie, it does all sound very interesting and could keep me occupied for hours at this rate!! :D :D ;)
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Found another site with additional engine info:
"Numbers on a typical race per Grand Prix
Number of combustions in a GP: 8 million
Number of engine & vehicle measurements/second at top speed: 150,000
Maximum rpm: 19,000+
Number of individual parts: 5,000 approx
Number of different parts: 1,000 approx
Maximum exhaust temperature(in a race): 800 celcius
Number of litres of air aspirated in 1 second at top speed: 450
F1 engines built in a year: 200
Weight in kg: <100
Engine assembly hours: 80
Hours checking a new cylinder head with computer tomography: 20
Number of engines brought to each GP: 10"
The Editor pitstop.com.my
http://www.pitstop.com.my/f1tech05.asp
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I reckon they ought to build the engines and then fit them in your Miggy to run them in. ;D ;D ;D
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......and try this site for further info:
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/4
8-) 8-)
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Getting somewhere now perhaps....
In http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3831/racing_pistons_and_rings.aspx
There is an article on pistons and piston rings, and in this is this statement:
"Racers want thinner rings that generate less tension to reduce friction, so ring dimensions have been shrinking. Many NASCAR and Pro Stock engines are now using compression rings as thin as 0.7 mm, and most Formula One engines are now down to 0.6 mm. These skinny rings produce very little tangential load (about 1.5 pounds), which minimizes friction and allows the rings to conform more easily to any bore distortion."
So does this mean that piston rings ARE still used in "most" Formula One engines, but now very much thinner than ever before?? :-? :-?
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Yes!!
At last found this fascinating bang up to date feature on oil engineering for the F1 engine:
http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/5298/389/
There is a great amount of information from a Shell Formula One Fuels Development leader, which includes:
"Mike Evans, Shell Formula One Fuels Development Project Leader explains, “Shell and Ferrari first worked together over 60 years ago. Recently, our technical partnership has seen the development of Shell V-Power race fuel, which is designed to provide Ferrari with three main advantages – first, give the engine more power and responsiveness through optimised formulation and friction reduction; second, improve fuel economy; and thirdly, offer protection and increase the reliability of the engine.”
Generating more power from the fuel has been a key focus for the 40-strong Shell Formula One team in the last few months. The latest fuel developed by Shell contains Friction Modification Technology. Targeting mainly the piston rings, the technology is designed to help the engine turn more freely, unlocking valuable energy and helping improve horsepower. Formulated with powerful cleansing agents, the fuel also helps prevent power-robbing deposits from forming on inlet valves and injection systems, improving responsiveness.
The tank fills The ‘camera' follows the Shell V-Power race fuel along the fuel rail into the fuel injectors. The fuel is then injected into the inlet trumpet, where it mixes with the air. This cools the mixture as the fuel vaporises on its journey down the inlet port."
Sorry Marks DTM but the evidence suggests there are still piston rings in Formula One engine technology in 2008, which frankly does not surprise me for all the reasons I stated before; how can pure "fine tollerances" between two moving surfaces retain the movement and pressure of combustable gases and oil circulation? It seems even now piston rings are the only answer! 8-) 8-)
:y :y :y
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any engine will have to have piston rings to create compression even 0.5mm thick still needs them !! :y
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any engine will have to have piston rings to create compression even 0.5mm thick still needs them !! :y
That is exactly what I thought, but Marks DTM did amaze me by saying they did not require them any more! ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;)
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got to or the fine tolerances would make it sieze !! need rings to separate piston from bore !! even though f1 engines run at silly temps still would sieze very soon :y
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:-?
Inspector Lizzie Zoom, I'm totally convinced that when you give
importance to a subject nothing can stop you and you will reach the
bottom :y :y :y
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Inspector Lizzie Zoom, I'm totally convinced that when you give
importance to a subject nothing can stop you and you will reach the
bottom :y :y :y
You are so right Cem! :D :y :y
In business I was nicknamed "The Terrier" as I would never let go of an issue that needed investigation! 8-) 8-) 8-)
Others called me a right "Bitch" because I was like that, but that's another story ;D ;D ;)
It is a great gift to have at uni! ;)
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:-?
Inspector Lizzie Zoom, I'm totally convinced that when you give
importance to a subject nothing can stop you and you will reach the
bottom :y :y :y
You are so right Cem! :D :y :y
In business I was nicknamed "The Terrier" as I would never let go of an issue that needed investigation! 8-) 8-) 8-)
Others called me a right "Bitch" because I was like that, but that's another story ;D ;D ;)
It is a great gift to have at uni! ;)
I see you are insistent and really go deep in subjects ..Thats something vital for success :y
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F1 engines do have camshafts but dont have valve springs(afaik).
Dont know anything about the piston ring issue,but at room temperature they are "siezed" and need to be carefully pre-heated to allow the various materials to reach operating temperature before the engine can be started.
The Cosworth DFV engine which Kevin posted the picture of and propelled hundreds of GP winning cars from the late sixties to the 80,s
could be bought by teams in 1980 for around £25,000 each. Those were the days.
Edit at 20.54 - been thinking about this and struggling to work out how the hydraulic or compressed air system would open/close the valves with camshafts, confused myself now. :-/ :D
Possibly the camshaft opens the valve and the hydraulic or air pressure closes it. :-/
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F1 engines do have camshafts but dont have valve springs(afaik).
Dont know anything about the piston ring issue,but at room temperature they are "siezed" and need to be carefully pre-heated to allow the various materials to reach operating temperature before the engine can be started.
The Cosworth DFV engine which Kevin posted the picture of and propelled hundreds of GP winning cars from the late sixties to the 80,s
could be bought by teams in 1980 for around £25,000 each. Those were the days.
Edit at 20.54 - been thinking about this and struggling to work out how the hydraulic or compressed air system would open/close the valves with camshafts, confused myself now. :-/ :D
Possibly the camshaft opens the valve and the hydraulic or air pressure closes it. :-/
Ok Albitz, a challege!! :D :D ;) Find out exactly how those cam's work as I did over the piston ring issue! :D :D ;)
A tip for you is go through the various web sites I found. :y :y
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They work of compressed air ,after a certain Rpm the valves start to get valve bounce ,its the springs comppresing , ducati got round it buy designing the "Desmodromic system" which is a bevalled gear drive system. As im not really mechanically minded im sure someone more enlightened will explain it in a better way than i can
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got to or the fine tolerances would make it sieze !! need rings to separate piston from bore !! even though f1 engines run at silly temps still would sieze very soon :y
Although not in the same league, model Aircraft engines don't use rings, they seem to be OK for tolerance. Well, OK, perhaps the newer ones do, but the older ones, like my Merco 61, Super Tigre etc don't. Maybe the new ones might, but they managed to get the tolerances good enough. Mind you they used a fuel-oil mix, perhaps the oil was helping to seal.
Ken
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got to or the fine tolerances would make it sieze !! need rings to separate piston from bore !! even though f1 engines run at silly temps still would sieze very soon :y
Although not in the same league, model Aircraft engines don't use rings, they seem to be OK for tolerance. Well, OK, perhaps the newer ones do, but the older ones, like my Merco 61, Super Tigre etc don't. Maybe the new ones might, but they managed to get the tolerances good enough. Mind you they used a fuel-oil mix, perhaps the oil was helping to seal.
Ken
Bet they don't run at a potential of 19,000 rpm or their pistons have to withstand pressure at 9,000 times gravity Ken? ;D ;D ;)!
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Model aircraft engines run at high teens to low twenty thousand RPM
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THis is a model engine!
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Tomlinson.htm
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Done a little bit of research.(thankyou google)
The engines do have camshafts to open the valves.there is an external nitrogen tank which supplies gas to a chamber which is where the metal spring would normally be and the gas pressure forces the valve shut.
came across Frank Williams comments as posted by Lizzie regarding piston rings ,so presume they still have piston rings of some description.
They are introducing KERS (kinetic energy recycling system) next year so things will probably get much more complicated next year.
P.S. get well soon Mark Webber.
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When you have read all the technical bits Lizzie, put your headphones on, log in to YouTube, search for Renault F1 Engine, click the one sent in by UnholyGwar, sit back and enjoy the fruits of all those technical bits ( sorry I didn't put a link in ).
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When you have read all the technical bits Lizzie, put your headphones on, log in to YouTube, search for Renault F1 Engine, click the one sent in by UnholyGwar, sit back and enjoy the fruits of all those technical bits ( sorry I didn't put a link in ).
Thanks for that!! :D :y :y
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THis is a model engine!
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Tomlinson.htm
Thanks for that Martin :y :y :y, that is one impressive "model" engine! :-* :-* :-* So impressive I thought I would show everyone the picture from that site.........
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/ModelEngine.jpg)
Obviously I am still thinking of those little 'pop-pop' engines that power small model aeroplanes, but things are a lot more spohisticated than that ;D ;D ;D ;).