Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 29 November 2008, 18:55:59
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Last Thursday Damian Green MP for Ashford and Shadow Cabinet Minister for Immigration was arrested. This was apparently as a consequence of Damian Green MP, alledgedly, receiving from a 26 year old civil servant the content of government papers and making the content public. :o :o
Further to the Damian Green MP affair over his arrest I have just read in The Daily Telegraph No. 47,741for Saturday 29th November 2008, on page 6 an article by Deputy Political Editor, Robert Winnett. In it he quotes two highly thought provoking statements.
One given by Michael Howard, former leader of the Conservative Party and a Home Secretary stated "This is the sort of thing that led to the start of the Civil War when Charles I went to Parliament". 8-) 8-)
Even more interesting is the other statement from the veteran Labour [left wing] MP and Cabinet Minister under various Prime Ministers "Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". 8-) 8-) :y
These two quotes, for me, sum up all that has gone wrong with the arresting of an Shadow Cabinet Minister using up to 20 police officers that searched not only his home, but his constitutional office and his parliamentary records.
The big questions must be, in my humble opinion, why are the public not entitled to learn of the real truth behind their democracy?; who gave the order to breach the Parliamentary Privilage of a serving MP and Shadow Cabinet Minister?; what is the justification and authority of the police to search through the Parliamentary records of a Shadow Cabinet Minister of the Opposition Party?, and finally where does this leave our democracy and the rights of elected Members of Parliament to obtain the truthful facts for their citizens, without fear and oppression?
Not being too OTT, but this is how the Nazis in Germany after Hitler's appointment as Chancellor at noon on 30th January 1933 started to dismantle the democratic state.(Shire, W. (1970) The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich p.187 London : Book Club Associates.
The freedom and liberty of our democratic state must not be so weakened by the unfortunate and misguided actions of a few in a socialist Goverment that is becoming more desperate by the day. >:( >:(
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Made my blood boil.Apparently anti terrorist police were used to search his properties,and I believe he was held for nine hours.
He embaressed Jacqi Smith last year by revealing that she knew about illegal immigrants working in the home office and being given licences to work in security.
He has taken it upon himself to expose the incompetence and downright dishonesty of the government and it looks like they are trying to put the frighteners on him.
Once again Stalin would be proud.
>:( >:( >:( >:(
Edit; They also made sure they did this while parliament is in recess,hoping the dust will settle before parliament sits again. Spineless b*st*rds.
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The police will use anti terroist laws given to them by this goverment to use against this goverment and anyone who they think is not toeing the line, it has been said for a long time now that the police do not want the population to have to much say and power as a democracy gives. Remember big brother is watching you and it will only get worse. The laws in this country got divorced from justice a long time ago.
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Someone once said,"the law and justice are distant cousins." :y
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The freedom and liberty of our democratic state must not be so weakened by the unfortunate and misguided actions of a few in a socialist Goverment that is becoming more desperate by the day. >:( >:(
If information is indeed "leaked" as part of a strategy then I think it has to be done with the formal consent of certain people in government (not sure exactly who).
From what I can get from the BBC news article, This involved a junior official, who over a period of time, released information that could be used to attack the Government.
It could be argued this information was leaked in such a manner, that it was an attempt to undermine or damage the Government currently in power?
I think this was the motivation for the arrest, rather than a conspiracy theory around the Government instructing the Police to lock up opposition politicians.
Also don't forget that all that is needed at this stage is a reasonable suspision the crime has been committed - and an arrest is just necessary as it's a formal part of the Police investigation.
The guy might yet be innocent - but as long as they had reasonable suspicion to investigate this, the met, or the governement, haven't really done anything wrong, IMO. Just because he's been nicked doesn't mean he's guilty, it just means he's being looked in to.
According to the Met spokesperson, the investigation was started soley by the Police with no Government approval, so if you take this at Face value, it doesn't indicate any governement corruption?
My understanding of Democracy is a right to vote, I don't think this right has been compromised, so I'm not sure there is an attack on Britain's Democracy?
I personally am undecided as to what may be going on, and we are not likely to get full facts - but I think it may be a bit early to call it an attack?
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possibly time that we voted on this.....
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/GoToCountryNow/
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Members of parliament have for centuries enjoyed parliamentary privilige and immunity (as long as national security isnt compromised),in order to allow them to be free to inform the electorate and protect democracy,this convention was thrown in the dustbin on Thursday.
I suspect they are worried if he digs much deeper he may stumble on something too big even for them to cover up.
Edit; it is afaik previously unheard of since Cromwellian times for an MP to be arrested in these circumstances.
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This government - and the Civil Service - is leakier than a sieve and something must be done. This MP has been made an example of and it should give others something to think about.
All this hyperventilation over the police state is exactly that in this instance. Hypervetilation.
IMO.
:y
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The freedom and liberty of our democratic state must not be so weakened by the unfortunate and misguided actions of a few in a socialist Goverment that is becoming more desperate by the day. >:( >:(
If information is indeed "leaked" as part of a strategy then I think it has to be done with the formal consent of certain people in government (not sure exactly who).
From what I can get from the BBC news article, This involved a junior official, who over a period of time, released information that could be used to attack the Government.
It could be argued this information was leaked in such a manner, that it was an attempt to undermine or damage the Government currently in power?
I think this was the motivation for the arrest, rather than a conspiracy theory around the Government instructing the Police to lock up opposition politicians.
Also don't forget that all that is needed at this stage is a reasonable suspision the crime has been committed - and an arrest is just necessary as it's a formal part of the Police investigation.
The guy might yet be innocent - but as long as they had reasonable suspicion to investigate this, the met, or the governement, haven't really done anything wrong, IMO. Just because he's been nicked doesn't mean he's guilty, it just means he's being looked in to.
According to the Met spokesperson, the investigation was started soley by the Police with no Government approval, so if you take this at Face value, it doesn't indicate any governement corruption?
My understanding of Democracy is a right to vote, I don't think this right has been compromised, so I'm not sure there is an attack on Britain's Democracy?
I personally am undecided as to what may be going on, and we are not likely to get full facts - but I think it may be a bit early to call it an attack?
James a Democracy is a Government by the people, in which the power resides in the people and is exercised by them. MPs have Parliamentary Privelage in which they act without fear of restraint or harrassment to represent their constituence, and act in the interests of the rights and freedoms of us the people. ;)
The raiding of a Shadow Minister's office and Parliamentary papers or records, which will contain very sensitive personal information and confidential matters concerning the Oppossition Party's business, is a dire event by the police which could result in a constitutional crisis. >:( >:( >:(
Please note again the comments I quote in my original posting made by the veteran Labour MP Mr. Wedgewood Benn. ;)
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". Wedgewood Benn.
This police action, no matter who instigated it, is an attack on our Democracy and the political freedom of the British people via their Parliamentary representative, who should be free to act in the best interests of those people without fear or harrassment from oppossing political agents. :y :y
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Someone once said,"the law and justice are distant cousins." :y
it depends on who made the law.. :-/
and who applies the law!
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This government - and the Civil Service - is leakier than a sieve and something must be done. This MP has been made an example of and it should give others something to think about.
All this hyperventilation over the police state is exactly that in this instance. Hypervetilation.
IMO.
:y
On the basis that he is currently being nothing more than investigated, I agree.
Let's wait until more facts are available, and (if charged) see if he is convicted by a court, before jumping to any conclusions :y
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The Police seriously need to step back from politics, if, as we are lead to believe, they did this completely off their own backs with no knowledge of the government. ::)
The (other) idiot Blair has gone, which can only be a good thing. Now we need to remove all this anti terror legislation that is being abused and rein in some of the powers and corruption that are making this country nothing better than a tin pot dictatorship. >:(
Kevin
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The freedom and liberty of our democratic state must not be so weakened by the unfortunate and misguided actions of a few in a socialist Goverment that is becoming more desperate by the day. >:( >:(
If information is indeed "leaked" as part of a strategy then I think it has to be done with the formal consent of certain people in government (not sure exactly who).
From what I can get from the BBC news article, This involved a junior official, who over a period of time, released information that could be used to attack the Government.
It could be argued this information was leaked in such a manner, that it was an attempt to undermine or damage the Government currently in power?
I think this was the motivation for the arrest, rather than a conspiracy theory around the Government instructing the Police to lock up opposition politicians.
Also don't forget that all that is needed at this stage is a reasonable suspision the crime has been committed - and an arrest is just necessary as it's a formal part of the Police investigation.
The guy might yet be innocent - but as long as they had reasonable suspicion to investigate this, the met, or the governement, haven't really done anything wrong, IMO. Just because he's been nicked doesn't mean he's guilty, it just means he's being looked in to.
According to the Met spokesperson, the investigation was started soley by the Police with no Government approval, so if you take this at Face value, it doesn't indicate any governement corruption?
My understanding of Democracy is a right to vote, I don't think this right has been compromised, so I'm not sure there is an attack on Britain's Democracy?
I personally am undecided as to what may be going on, and we are not likely to get full facts - but I think it may be a bit early to call it an attack?
James a Democracy is a Government by the people, in which the power resides in the people and is exercised by them. MPs have Parliamentary Privelage in which they act without fear of restraint or harrassment to represent their constituence, and act in the interests of the rights and freedoms of us the people. ;)
The raiding of a Shadow Minister's office and Parliamentary papers or records, which will contain very sensitive personal information and confidential matters concerning the Oppossition Party's business, is a dire event by the police which could result in a constitutional crisis. >:( >:( >:(
Please note again the comments I quote in my original posting made by the veteran Labour MP Mr. Wedgewood Benn. ;)
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". Wedgewood Benn.
This police action, no matter who instigated it, is an attack on our Democracy and the political freedom of the British people via their Parliamentary representative, who should be free to act in the best interests of those people without fear or harrassment from oppossing political agents. :y :y
If the met had genuine suspicion that an offence had happened or was about to happen, then they are justified in investigating this - the arrest was just a means to do so.
Just because he's a Politician does not mean he is above the law, and if he is suspected of an unlawful offence, he should surely be looked into the same as anyone else would?
I actually don't think that's being a "Police State" - moreso the Police just acting with what they have sworn to do - impartiality.
Lizzie you may turn out to be correct with your theory - but all I am saying is at this stage, we don't know the full facts, so it's probably too early to label it an attack?
He's only been arrested to investigate a potential offence, he hasn't yet had any action taken against him or been convicted of anything.
I'd like to see what happens with that, before making any firm opinion on what's going on, really...
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The freedom and liberty of our democratic state must not be so weakened by the unfortunate and misguided actions of a few in a socialist Goverment that is becoming more desperate by the day. >:( >:(
If information is indeed "leaked" as part of a strategy then I think it has to be done with the formal consent of certain people in government (not sure exactly who).
From what I can get from the BBC news article, This involved a junior official, who over a period of time, released information that could be used to attack the Government.
It could be argued this information was leaked in such a manner, that it was an attempt to undermine or damage the Government currently in power?
I think this was the motivation for the arrest, rather than a conspiracy theory around the Government instructing the Police to lock up opposition politicians.
Also don't forget that all that is needed at this stage is a reasonable suspision the crime has been committed - and an arrest is just necessary as it's a formal part of the Police investigation.
The guy might yet be innocent - but as long as they had reasonable suspicion to investigate this, the met, or the governement, haven't really done anything wrong, IMO. Just because he's been nicked doesn't mean he's guilty, it just means he's being looked in to.
According to the Met spokesperson, the investigation was started soley by the Police with no Government approval, so if you take this at Face value, it doesn't indicate any governement corruption?
My understanding of Democracy is a right to vote, I don't think this right has been compromised, so I'm not sure there is an attack on Britain's Democracy?
I personally am undecided as to what may be going on, and we are not likely to get full facts - but I think it may be a bit early to call it an attack?
James a Democracy is a Government by the people, in which the power resides in the people and is exercised by them. MPs have Parliamentary Privelage in which they act without fear of restraint or harrassment to represent their constituence, and act in the interests of the rights and freedoms of us the people. ;)
The raiding of a Shadow Minister's office and Parliamentary papers or records, which will contain very sensitive personal information and confidential matters concerning the Oppossition Party's business, is a dire event by the police which could result in a constitutional crisis. >:( >:( >:(
Please note again the comments I quote in my original posting made by the veteran Labour MP Mr. Wedgewood Benn. ;)
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". Wedgewood Benn.
This police action, no matter who instigated it, is an attack on our Democracy and the political freedom of the British people via their Parliamentary representative, who should be free to act in the best interests of those people without fear or harrassment from oppossing political agents. :y :y
If the met had genuine suspicion that an offence had happened or was about to happen, then they are justified in investigating this - the arrest was just a means to do so.
Just because he's a Politician does not mean he is above the law, and if he is suspected of an unlawful offence, he should surely be looked into the same as anyone else would?
I actually don't think that's being a "Police State" - moreso the Police just acting with what they have sworn to do - impartiality.
Lizzie you may turn out to be correct with your theory - but all I am saying is at this stage, we don't know the full facts, so it's probably too early to label it an attack?
He's only been arrested to investigate a potential offence, he hasn't yet had any action taken against him or been convicted of anything.
I'd like to see what happens with that, before making any firm opinion on what's going on, really...
"Only arrested"!! :o :o
He is a Shadow Cabinet Minister who is entitled to learn the truth of all government actions that affect the people he represent, but Damian has been arrested under caution and you like me knows what that means, when all the police needed to do was question him. After all he is unlikely to leave the country!!
Funny it happened on the very day Sir Ian Blair officially stepped down as the Met's Police Commissioner after being effectively removed from office by the Conversatives via the Mayor of London?! ::) ::) ::) ::)
No, politics not justice is behind all this, which is a threat to the workings of our democracy. >:( >:(
I sincerely hope all will shortly be exposed for the public to make judgement. :y :y
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"Only arrested"!! :o :o
He is a Shadow Cabinet Minister who is entitled to learn the truth of all government actions that affect the people he represent, but Damian has been arrested under caution and you like me knows what that means, when all the police needed to do was question him.
Going slightly off topic - if the Met had reason to believe an offence had been committed, would it not be unlawful to question him, if he wasn't under caution?
I sincerely hope all will shortly be exposed for the public to make judgement. :y :y
Agreed - I'm intreagued as to what's going on! :y
As said before, you may be right about it all - I'd just rather hold judgement until facts are known :y
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Sorry James but you are wrong. elected politicians always have been above the law in very narrow circumstances. It is known as parliamentary privilige,It gives them the freedom to investigate dishonesty in government etc; without fear of prosecution or persecution,at least it did until a few days ago.
No offence but I think there is a great lack of political awareness being perpatrated here.
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Sorry James but you are wrong. elected politicians always have been above the law
No offence but I think there is a great lack of political awareness being perpatrated here.
No offence taken.
I don't claim to have Political awareness mate - I openly admit I know beggar all about the Government and how it works, so I'm open to correction, on that score.
The only thing I do maintain, is that we need to see what happens before making a judgement - there may be factors we are unaware of?
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Fair enough James,but there would have to be extremely extraordinary factors involved to justify this in any way imo.
I have no doubt that the usual smokescreen tactics will be employed and hopefully wont work.
P.S. I am not a Tory by the way. :y
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This has been so slowly coming for many years. Are you aware we have Jewish law court type things, and we now have another type of law being dished out if both parties agree to abide by the decision.
Both of these are outside of our system.
Take something like the smoking ban, a lot of people thought what agreat idea and supported it, I even heard someone on TV saying "we need to make this as disgusting as smoking" I can't remember what they where on about now, I was just so shocked that smoking could be talked about as if we where outright criminals.
When a government gets power mad and starts to ban things, and make us guilty until we prove our innocence, and keep the rcords just in case we may be guilty in the future, then we are ones in trouble.
I think we should be very worried about the future. people like hitler and mugabe are not much different to brown and darling, they are all seduced by the power in the end :(
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Without wishing to take sides, and, like everyone else I have very few "facts" on this matter, only what is reported, but I do have one major problem with one of the answers given thus far.
Several folks have commented along the lines of "if the Met suspected a crime was being committed then they have to respond" - a statement that, on the face of it, I have no problem with ..... However .....
How would they "suspect a crime was being committed" unless someone told them ??? AFAIK the Met are not clairvoyent .. therefore they were told, by someone.
The BIG question is by Who ??? and Why ??? It is the answers to those two points that really matters .. IMHO
If it was done by Powers within the present Government in order to embarrass/shut up Her Majesty's Opposition then it is exceedingly dangerous.
If it was done by a minor Civil Servant who didn't like his work being made common knowledge, then the "wait and see" approach is entirely reasonable.
The problem is .. will we ever know the difference or the truth ???
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Without wishing to take sides, and, like everyone else I have very few "facts" on this matter, only what is reported, but I do have one major problem with one of the answers given thus far.
Several folks have commented along the lines of "if the Met suspected a crime was being committed then they have to respond" - a statement that, on the face of it, I have no problem with ..... However .....
How would they "suspect a crime was being committed" unless someone told them ??? AFAIK the Met are not clairvoyent .. therefore they were told, by someone.
The BIG question is by Who ??? and Why ??? It is the answers to those two points that really matters .. IMHO
If it was done by Powers within the present Government in order to embarrass/shut up Her Majesty's Opposition then it is exceedingly dangerous.
If it was done by a minor Civil Servant who didn't like his work being made common knowledge, then the "wait and see" approach is entirely reasonable.
The problem is .. will we ever know the difference or the truth ???
I would agree with this, seems like a valid point to me and has also crossed my mind. Not sure we'll ever know for sure, though :-/
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Ultimately, its NuLabour fault, they have given the
Stasi police to much power. They also selected an totally unsuitable man as the speaker of the house, who steps aside to let the pigs get to the tories
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
So do I Nickbat! :y :y :y
As for the quote, as I stated in my opening post, he also has been quoted as stating:
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". :y :y :y
He is absolutely right, although like you I have not always agreed with what he has said! ;)
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
So do I Nickbat! :y :y :y
As for the quote, as I stated in my opening post, he also has been quoted as stating:
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". :y :y :y
He is absolutely right, although like you I have not always agreed with what he has said! ;)
Sorry Lizzie, I missed that quote in your first post. Comes of speed reading I guess (plus I think you missed out Benn's name!). Just re-read it slowly and agree entirely with what you said. :y :y
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
So do I Nickbat! :y :y :y
As for the quote, as I stated in my opening post, he also has been quoted as stating:
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". :y :y :y
He is absolutely right, although like you I have not always agreed with what he has said! ;)
Well perhaps we will be able to walk the streets again, get rid of illegal immigrants and have everyone in work, who genuinley can.
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
So do I Nickbat! :y :y :y
As for the quote, as I stated in my opening post, he also has been quoted as stating:
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". :y :y :y
He is absolutely right, although like you I have not always agreed with what he has said! ;)
Well perhaps we will be able to walk the streets again, get rid of illegal immigrants and have everyone in work, who genuinley can.
[/highlight]
Sorry to say mike thats cloud cuckoo land not a police state :D :D :D :D ps sorry to be so flipant on such a seroius item
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
So do I Nickbat! :y :y :y
As for the quote, as I stated in my opening post, he also has been quoted as stating:
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". :y :y :y
He is absolutely right, although like you I have not always agreed with what he has said! ;)
Well perhaps we will be able to walk the streets again, get rid of illegal immigrants and have everyone in work, who genuinley can.
[/highlight]
Sorry to say mike thats cloud cuckoo land not a police state :D :D :D :D ps sorry to be so flipant on such a seroius item
Tis the land I would like to live in though :y
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Serious subject .. but an attempt at humour ???
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wtIjgsxe-jM&eurl=http://thecrownblogspot.*************/2008/11/gordon-browns-downfall-prequel.html
You may or may not smile .......
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
So do I Nickbat! :y :y :y
As for the quote, as I stated in my opening post, he also has been quoted as stating:
"Once the police can interfere with Parliament, we are into the police state. Parliament is a safeguard against the abuse of power and once you start clamping down on it you are saying goodbye to the freedom it gives you". :y :y :y
He is absolutely right, although like you I have not always agreed with what he has said! ;)
Well perhaps we will be able to walk the streets again, get rid of illegal immigrants and have everyone in work, who genuinley can.
[/highlight]
Sorry to say mike thats cloud cuckoo land not a police state :D :D :D :D ps sorry to be so flipant on such a seroius item
Tis the land I would like to live in though :y
very true i think it would be great thing to be able to turn back the clock and start again , but unless something very major happens i think its gonna take a long time and with a lot of serious policy changes from goverment to make that happen
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Serious subject .. but an attempt at humour ???
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wtIjgsxe-jM&eurl=http://thecrownblogspot.*************/2008/11/gordon-browns-downfall-prequel.html
You may or may not smile .......
How close to the truth is that ????
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Without wishing to take sides, and, like everyone else I have very few "facts" on this matter, only what is reported, but I do have one major problem with one of the answers given thus far.
Several folks have commented along the lines of "if the Met suspected a crime was being committed then they have to respond" - a statement that, on the face of it, I have no problem with ..... However .....
How would they "suspect a crime was being committed" unless someone told them ??? AFAIK the Met are not clairvoyent .. therefore they were told, by someone.
The BIG question is by Who ??? and Why ??? It is the answers to those two points that really matters .. IMHO
If it was done by Powers within the present Government in order to embarrass/shut up Her Majesty's Opposition then it is exceedingly dangerous.
If it was done by a minor Civil Servant who didn't like his work being made common knowledge, then the "wait and see" approach is entirely reasonable.
The problem is .. will we ever know the difference or the truth ???
The investigation into the leaks was ordered initially by the home secretary,that is not being denied.A civil servant was arrested around a week ago in relation to the matter.It could be that they got worried/pressurised/threatened/offered a deal and coughed the name of the MP.
Although she ordered the start of the investigation she and the prime minister claim to have had no knowledge of the arrest until after it had happened. ::)
Gordon Brown built himself a formidable reputation for uncovering unpalletable facts about the last Tory government,and leaking them to the Daily Mirror,when he was in opposition.
Prior to last weeks budget statement,we were made aware of much of the content in advance because it had been leaked to the media by the no. 10 press office, was anyone arrested for this ? ::)
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Prior to last weeks budget statement,we were made aware of much of the content in advance because it had been leaked to the media by the no. 10 press office, was anyone arrested for this ? ::)
Exactly. Leaks are a powerful tool, reserved for the use of the government and not the opposition, apparently. ::)
Kevin
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
i read in paper yesterday that it was authorised from the office of thr speaker and the sergeant at arms , no prizes who'll carry the can for it ,if it goes pear shaped and it wont be "Gorbals Mick"
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I totally agree with you on the democracy issue Lizzie........but it will not bring the government down....also we all need to be careful what we wish for.
The alternative would be a Conservative administration that would be made up of a bunch of Eton educated ....pot bellied.....wet lipped... Tory MP's who have little or no experience of real life and a kind of sneering contempt for the average person in the street (and Omega owner). ;D
I believe that (if the tories win the next election) there would be more Old Etonians in the government than since the days of Anthony Eden and Harold(...You've never had it so good) Macmillan ....in the late fifties and early sixties.
We need educated...articulate ..and erudite people to form the next government regardless of which party wins......but I have never seen these public school educated inbreds as our natural leaders .....even though I feel sure that is how they see themselves. :y :y :y :y
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If they made david Davis leader and Ken Clarke chancellor I would seriously consider voting for them.
Camerons attacks on new liebour are as vicious as being savaged by a dead sheep,and Osborne is damaged goods after the Russian billionare episode.
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I totally agree with you on the democracy issue Lizzie........but it will not bring the government down....also we all need to be careful what we wish for.
The alternative would be a Conservative administration that would be made up of a bunch of Eton educated ....pot bellied.....wet lipped... Tory MP's who have little or no experience of real life and a kind of sneering contempt for the average person in the street (and Omega owner). ;D
I believe that (if the tories win the next election) there would be more Old Etonians in the government than since the days of Anthony Eden and Harold(...You've never had it so good) Macmillan ....in the late fifties and early sixties.
We need educated...articulate ..and erudite people to form the next government regardless of which party wins......but I have never seen these public school educated inbreds as our natural leaders .....even though I feel sure that is how they see themselves. :y :y :y :y
You obviously don't like the "Rulling Elite" Optimist fresh from the playing fields of Eton! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Ok, so David Cameron was Eton educated, and then went to Oxford University; so what is wrong with that? As you say we need well educated people to lead this country, and like it or not 'they' will so often come via Oxford as so many Conservative AND leading Labours MP's do!
Forget the class war bit, as where are those lines drawn now? Tony Blair, Harrold Wilson, along with my left wing hero Wedgewood Benn (from a landed family) were all educated at Oxford. As were Labour's current Cabinet MPs of David Miliband, Jacque Smith. Conservatives William Hague and George Osbourne also studied at Oxford.
Brown studied at Edinburgh University, Alistair Darling at Aberdeen, Jack Straw at Leeds.
If you go through the ranks of MP's from all sides of the House you will find university educated people. But where does Eton come into it....only with David Cameron at the top level of the Conservative Party as far as I can see. ::) ::) ;)
The only thing this country needs is for the current Government to go and be replaced by "business minded" MP's, which for me personally, and I recognize it is not everyone's cup of tea, should be the Conservatives! :y :y
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I totally agree with you on the democracy issue Lizzie........but it will not bring the government down....also we all need to be careful what we wish for.
The alternative would be a Conservative administration that would be made up of a bunch of Eton educated ....pot bellied.....wet lipped... Tory MP's who have little or no experience of real life and a kind of sneering contempt for the average person in the street (and Omega owner). ;D
I believe that (if the tories win the next election) there would be more Old Etonians in the government than since the days of Anthony Eden and Harold(...You've never had it so good) Macmillan ....in the late fifties and early sixties.
We need educated...articulate ..and erudite people to form the next government regardless of which party wins......but I have never seen these public school educated inbreds as our natural leaders .....even though I feel sure that is how they see themselves. :y :y :y :y
You obviously don't like the "Rulling Elite" Optimist fresh from the playing fields of Eton! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Ok, so David Cameron was Eton educated, and then went to Oxford University; so what is wrong with that? As you say we need well educated people to lead this country, and like it or not 'they' will so often come via Oxford as so many Conservative AND leading Labours MP's do!
Forget the class war bit, as where are those lines drawn now? Tony Blair, Harrold Wilson, along with my left wing hero Wedgewood Benn (from a landed family) were all educated at Oxford. As were Labour's current Cabinet MPs of David Miliband, Jacque Smith. Conservatives William Hague and George Osbourne also studied at Oxford.
Brown studied at Edinburgh University, Alistair Darling at Aberdeen, Jack Straw at Leeds.
If you go through the ranks of MP's from all sides of the House you will find university educated people. But where does Eton come into it....only with David Cameron at the top level of the Conservative Party as far as I can see. ::) ::) ;)
The only thing this country needs is for the current Government to go and be replaced by "business minded" MP's, which for me personally, and I recognize it is not everyone's cup of tea, should be the Conservatives! :y :y
its not just business minded MP's we need it some with half a ounce of commen sense not just some moron whos just left uni with a degree in political studies or science and goes straight onto be reseacher for someone ,what life expeirence they got ...... nada
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It may come as a surprise but I have a huge amount of respect for Tony Benn. Totally disagree with his policies but, as a parliamentarian, he is an absolute expert on the workings and importance of our system. Last night he was on TV and said this is an attack on our freedom as a democracy. If Benn says that, I can believe it is real.
This matter must not left to rest. The current administration has continually tried to override the mechanisms of the House and, these days, regards it as a nuisance.
We must also remember that people complained that the Thatcher government introduced too many criminal laws during its terms: some 800 between 1979 and 1990. In the same period of 11 years, however, Labour has introduced [size=12]3,609[/size] criminal offences - four times as many. :o >:( >:(
Is it any wonder that we've had enough? >:(
Most centre right people do - he had friends from all parties
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If they made david Davis leader and Ken Clarke chancellor I would seriously consider voting for them.
Camerons attacks on new liebour are as vicious as being savaged by a dead sheep,and Osborne is damaged goods after the Russian billionare episode.
The ultimate combination of strong anti-surveylance leader and competent chancellor
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I totally agree with you on the democracy issue Lizzie........but it will not bring the government down....also we all need to be careful what we wish for.
The alternative would be a Conservative administration that would be made up of a bunch of Eton educated ....pot bellied.....wet lipped... Tory MP's who have little or no experience of real life and a kind of sneering contempt for the average person in the street (and Omega owner). ;D
I believe that (if the tories win the next election) there would be more Old Etonians in the government than since the days of Anthony Eden and Harold(...You've never had it so good) Macmillan ....in the late fifties and early sixties.
We need educated...articulate ..and erudite people to form the next government regardless of which party wins......but I have never seen these public school educated inbreds as our natural leaders .....even though I feel sure that is how they see themselves. :y :y :y :y
You obviously don't like the "Rulling Elite" Optimist fresh from the playing fields of Eton! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Ok, so David Cameron was Eton educated, and then went to Oxford University; so what is wrong with that? As you say we need well educated people to lead this country, and like it or not 'they' will so often come via Oxford as so many Conservative AND leading Labours MP's do!
Forget the class war bit, as where are those lines drawn now? Tony Blair, Harrold Wilson, along with my left wing hero Wedgewood Benn (from a landed family) were all educated at Oxford. As were Labour's current Cabinet MPs of David Miliband, Jacque Smith. Conservatives William Hague and George Osbourne also studied at Oxford.
Brown studied at Edinburgh University, Alistair Darling at Aberdeen, Jack Straw at Leeds.
If you go through the ranks of MP's from all sides of the House you will find university educated people. But where does Eton come into it....only with David Cameron at the top level of the Conservative Party as far as I can see. ::) ::) ;)
The only thing this country needs is for the current Government to go and be replaced by "business minded" MP's, which for me personally, and I recognize it is not everyone's cup of tea, should be the Conservatives! :y :y
University is an excellent idea Lizzie.....I believe that around 44% of people now go on to university.....when I left school I think that the figure was around 3%...
I was disappointed that it was a Labour government who bought in tuition fees(a disgrace in my opinion.....but then that was Tory....oops sorry Tony Blair who came up with that one.
You are right Lizzie that most people will have gone to university who make up the government ....that is to be expected ...even welcome.
Institutions such as Eton however leave me cold ....they are an anachronism that has no place in the world of today.
Lizzie....I think that perhaps we agree on more than we disagree on this forum ....but we obviously do not share the same views on all matters...(I can feel a Voltaire moment coming on here. ;D ;D)
I think that George Osborne was at Eton also along with Quite a few few otherTory front benchers......Univesity ....yes .....Eton ....no.
Don't get me wrong Lizzie .....I do not yearn for a "seventies socialist revival"....but I do not wish for a right wingTory government either. :y :y
Keep up the great posting Lizzie. :y :y :y :y
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I totally agree with you on the democracy issue Lizzie........but it will not bring the government down....also we all need to be careful what we wish for.
The alternative would be a Conservative administration that would be made up of a bunch of Eton educated ....pot bellied.....wet lipped... Tory MP's who have little or no experience of real life and a kind of sneering contempt for the average person in the street (and Omega owner). ;D
I believe that (if the tories win the next election) there would be more Old Etonians in the government than since the days of Anthony Eden and Harold(...You've never had it so good) Macmillan ....in the late fifties and early sixties.
We need educated...articulate ..and erudite people to form the next government regardless of which party wins......but I have never seen these public school educated inbreds as our natural leaders .....even though I feel sure that is how they see themselves. :y :y :y :y
You obviously don't like the "Rulling Elite" Optimist fresh from the playing fields of Eton! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Ok, so David Cameron was Eton educated, and then went to Oxford University; so what is wrong with that? As you say we need well educated people to lead this country, and like it or not 'they' will so often come via Oxford as so many Conservative AND leading Labours MP's do!
Forget the class war bit, as where are those lines drawn now? Tony Blair, Harrold Wilson, along with my left wing hero Wedgewood Benn (from a landed family) were all educated at Oxford. As were Labour's current Cabinet MPs of David Miliband, Jacque Smith. Conservatives William Hague and George Osbourne also studied at Oxford.
Brown studied at Edinburgh University, Alistair Darling at Aberdeen, Jack Straw at Leeds.
If you go through the ranks of MP's from all sides of the House you will find university educated people. But where does Eton come into it....only with David Cameron at the top level of the Conservative Party as far as I can see. ::) ::) ;)
The only thing this country needs is for the current Government to go and be replaced by "business minded" MP's, which for me personally, and I recognize it is not everyone's cup of tea, should be the Conservatives! :y :y
University is an excellent idea Lizzie.....I believe that around 44% of people now go on to university.....when I left school I think that the figure was around 3%...
I was disappointed that it was a Labour government who bought in tuition fees(a disgrace in my opinion.....but then that was Tory....oops sorry Tony Blair who came up with that one.
You are right Lizzie that most people will have gone to university who make up the government ....that is to be expected ...even welcome.
Institutions such as Eton however leave me cold ....they are an anachronism that has no place in the world of today.
Lizzie....I think that perhaps we agree on more than we disagree on this forum ....but we obviously do not share the same views on all matters...(I can feel a Voltaire moment coming on here. ;D ;D)
I think that George Osborne was at Eton also along with Quite a few few otherTory front benchers......Univesity ....yes .....Eton ....no.
Don't get me wrong Lizzie .....I do not yearn for a "seventies socialist revival"....but I do not wish for a right wingTory government either. :y :y
Keep up the great posting Lizzie. :y :y :y :y
And thanks for your lively posting Optimist, I think it is great when two people don't agree on everything. although you are right we do agree on a lot between us, as you can have some wonderful debates!! :D :D :y :y :y
As for the Conservatives, you could be right and they have yet to really convince me and as you know I am a Conserative through and through!! :D ;)
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Still no apology from Brown, PM or Jacque Smith, Home Secretary this morning for this appalling state of affairs as I have previously described!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
It is a complete and utter outrage that has very serious implications for our democracy and the Parliamentary Privilge enjoyed by our political representatives, the Ministers of Parliament, which is now being stated by all sides of the political spectrum and within Scotland Yard! >:( >:( >:(
I do not know if this is enough to bring this damn Government down, but it should be!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I totally agree with you on the democracy issue Lizzie........but it will not bring the government down....also we all need to be careful what we wish for.
The alternative would be a Conservative administration that would be made up of a bunch of Eton educated ....pot bellied.....wet lipped... Tory MP's who have little or no experience of real life and a kind of sneering contempt for the average person in the street (and Omega owner). ;D
I believe that (if the tories win the next election) there would be more Old Etonians in the government than since the days of Anthony Eden and Harold(...You've never had it so good) Macmillan ....in the late fifties and early sixties.
We need educated...articulate ..and erudite people to form the next government regardless of which party wins......but I have never seen these public school educated inbreds as our natural leaders .....even though I feel sure that is how they see themselves. :y :y :y :y
You obviously don't like the "Rulling Elite" Optimist fresh from the playing fields of Eton! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Ok, so David Cameron was Eton educated, and then went to Oxford University; so what is wrong with that? As you say we need well educated people to lead this country, and like it or not 'they' will so often come via Oxford as so many Conservative AND leading Labours MP's do!
Forget the class war bit, as where are those lines drawn now? Tony Blair, Harrold Wilson, along with my left wing hero Wedgewood Benn (from a landed family) were all educated at Oxford. As were Labour's current Cabinet MPs of David Miliband, Jacque Smith. Conservatives William Hague and George Osbourne also studied at Oxford.
Brown studied at Edinburgh University, Alistair Darling at Aberdeen, Jack Straw at Leeds.
If you go through the ranks of MP's from all sides of the House you will find university educated people. But where does Eton come into it....only with David Cameron at the top level of the Conservative Party as far as I can see. ::) ::) ;)
The only thing this country needs is for the current Government to go and be replaced by "business minded" MP's, which for me personally, and I recognize it is not everyone's cup of tea, should be the Conservatives! :y :y
University is an excellent idea Lizzie.....I believe that around 44% of people now go on to university.....when I left school I think that the figure was around 3%...
I was disappointed that it was a Labour government who bought in tuition fees(a disgrace in my opinion.....but then that was Tory....oops sorry Tony Blair who came up with that one.
You are right Lizzie that most people will have gone to university who make up the government ....that is to be expected ...even welcome.
Institutions such as Eton however leave me cold ....they are an anachronism that has no place in the world of today.
Lizzie....I think that perhaps we agree on more than we disagree on this forum ....but we obviously do not share the same views on all matters...(I can feel a Voltaire moment coming on here. ;D ;D)
I think that George Osborne was at Eton also along with Quite a few few otherTory front benchers......Univesity ....yes .....Eton ....no.
Don't get me wrong Lizzie .....I do not yearn for a "seventies socialist revival"....but I do not wish for a right wingTory government either. :y :y
Keep up the great posting Lizzie. :y :y :y :y
And thanks for your lively posting Optimist, I think it is great when two people don't agree on everything. although you are right we do agree on a lot between us, as you can have some wonderful debates!! :D :D :y :y :y
As for the Conservatives, you could be right and they have yet to really convince me and as you know I am a Conserative through and through!! :D ;)
Red Lizzie really.....but it'll be our secret. ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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Also lets not forget that this is the government who leaked the details of Dr. David Kelly to the media,and the pressure of this drove the poor man to his death.The hypocrisy is sickening. >:(
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Also lets not forget that this is the government who leaked the details of Dr. David Kelly to the media,and the pressure of this drove the poor man to his death.The hypocrisy is sickening. >:(
So right Albitz!! :y :y :y
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On the Andrew Marr show this morning, amoungst all the other political comment, including that from Jacque Smith, was this peach from Kenneth Clarke, former Tory Home Secretary:
"There is no crime, this is an abuse of police powers, this is President Nixon's America - harassing a political opponent of the government. It should stop."
Ken Clarke
Ex-Tory home secretary