Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Turk on 08 January 2009, 21:40:18
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link removed by TheBoy for being too onesided in a complex issue
Still think so ?
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Personally don't think you should even go there.
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Personally don't think you should even go there.
agreed
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That wasn't the question. Last time I looked at the poll the majority were in favour.
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Personally don't think you should even go there.
agreed
yep i am with the other guys....
at the risk of sounding heartless this is a car forum that sometimes discuses current affairs, this is a little beyond that due to the strength of feeling.....
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See Richies quote. :)
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I've only looked at url, not even site, and can ascertain it will be pro palestinian and anti Isrealli. Not going to be a balanced view of the crisis.
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Just looked at link, too one sided. so removing.
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This is not suitable material for a public forum, esp a forum for car enthusiasts. How dare you assume that I either agree or disagree with what is going on in the Middle East. It's not often that I get genuinely annoyed with people on the forum but you have p!ssed me right off.
i agree there, i have no interest in the subject. couldnt give a break if they kill each other.
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The situation out there ( and indeed, a lot of other places) is far too complicated for me to even try to fathom it out ----- if the solution was a simple one it would have happened.
It is not in my gift to sort out the rights or wrongs, nor am I remotely qualified to give an opinion, however, I do mourn the senseless loss of life on all sides --- as far as that goes it is a tragedy.
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I keep coming back to this thread, feeling it should be removed. But mindful that people may think that means I am backing the Israellis, which is not the case. Both sides need to compromise, that will never happen, so this crisis will never go away.
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This is not suitable material for a public forum, esp a forum for car enthusiasts. How dare you assume that I either agree or disagree with what is going on in the Middle East. It's not often that I get genuinely annoyed with people on the forum but you have p!ssed me right off.
I can only assume you missed the following poll on this "car forum".
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825/0
..and get off your high horse, No one mentiond you or anyone else for that matter in particular.
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I keep coming back to this thread, feeling it should be removed. But mindful that people may think that means I am backing the Israellis, which is not the case. Both sides need to compromise, that will never happen, so this crisis will never go away.
Dont remove it, maybe lock it. Or everyone will feel they have to say something and it will drag on into the night causing offence left, right and centre.
Signed: Hymie Goldberg.
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Think what you want, it's a free world after all, but don't post links without warning that point to pictures of death, dismemberment and destruction. It's not nice.
My 10 year old daughter occasionally used to sit with me whilst I perused the forum. Not any more I'm afraid.
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This is not suitable material for a public forum, esp a forum for car enthusiasts. How dare you assume that I either agree or disagree with what is going on in the Middle East. It's not often that I get genuinely annoyed with people on the forum but you have p!ssed me right off.
I can only assume you missed the following poll on this "car forum".
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825/0
..and get off your high horse, No one mentiond you or anyone else for that matter in particular.
I think that thread pretty much covered all sides of the debate, and seemed to kick off in a fairly balanced way.
I have had to remove your orignal link, as it was a pure islamic proporganda link, far from a balanced view.
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You're not wrong there TB. It will never go away. I'm not sure where exactly it is written in the Bible, but it states something along the line that the two will never be at peace.
No problem in removing it. I should have mentioned that some images are very graphic and I apologise for that ommitance.
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If you have blocked the link then no point in the thread anyway, may as well be removed.
I have very little understanding of the situation. The photos were awful, but war is :-X
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You're not wrong there TB. It will never go away. I'm not sure where exactly it is written in the Bible, but it states something along the line that the two will never be at peace.
No problem in removing it. I should have mentioned that some images are very graphic and I apologise for that ommitance.
I know the Bible probably slightly better than I know the Qur'an, and it doesn't mention Palestine directly. The Old Testiment (the part of the Bible that the Jewish religion follows) does cover the persecution of the Jews
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Think what you want, it's a free world after all, but don't post links without warning that point to pictures of death, dismemberment and destruction. It's not nice.
My 10 year old daughter occasionally used to sit with me whilst I perused the forum. Not any more I'm afraid.
This is a valid point ... I also sit with my lad as he likes to look at cars. However, we must also remember that some of the members in their own rights are also somewhat younger than the majority of us.
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If you have blocked the link then no point in the thread anyway, may as well be removed.
I have very little understanding of the situation. The photos were awful, but war is :-X
And risk uproar that undoubtedly will ensue, both in PM and publically about how fixated and inflexible the admin team are? Difficult call ;)
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Think what you want, it's a free world after all, but don't post links without warning that point to pictures of death, dismemberment and destruction. It's not nice.
My 10 year old daughter occasionally used to sit with me whilst I perused the forum. Not any more I'm afraid.
This is a valid point ... I also sit with my lad as he likes to look at cars. However, we must also remember that some of the members in their own rights are also somewhat younger than the majority of us.
My daughter likes to have a nose sometimes and I appreciate the NWS warnings, I just don't go there if she is with me.
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My apologies. Not for posting the link, but I really should have posted a warning...for all, not just for the folks with little 'uns also on-line.
That link was supplied by an old colleague. He's an Israeli, and sent the link via his girlfriend who works for a humanitarian organization over there. He says he is ashamed to be an Israeli and is closing down his design business and is hoping to get a visa to work in the States.
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War is a dirty business, but you can't ban it. Since the time the camera was invented, graphic images have been used for propaganda by ALL sides. Linking to such images is a step beyond normal discourse on a site like this, I feel, and I wholeheartedly agree with the actions taken by the admin team. :y
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Just looked at link, too one sided. so removing.
On the news tonight....758 Palestinian deaths......13 Israeli deaths..(5 of which were by friendly fire).
Gaza....stoneage..........Israel.......Superpower.....yep...too one sided sounds about right to me. :( :( :(
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Just looked at link, too one sided. so removing.
On the news tonight....758 Palestinian deaths......13 Israeli deaths..(5 of which were by friendly fire).
Gaza....stoneage..........Israel.......Superpower.....yep...too one sided sounds about right to me. :( :( :(
It's not about numbers. >:(
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Just looked at link, too one sided. so removing.
On the news tonight....758 Palestinian deaths......13 Israeli deaths..(5 of which were by friendly fire).
Gaza....stoneage..........Israel.......Superpower.....yep...too one sided sounds about right to me. :( :( :(
It's not about numbers. >:(
Try thinking of those numbers as human beings !
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Just looked at link, too one sided. so removing.
On the news tonight....758 Palestinian deaths......13 Israeli deaths..(5 of which were by friendly fire).
Gaza....stoneage..........Israel.......Superpower.....yep...too one sided sounds about right to me. :( :( :(
It's not about numbers. >:(
Try thinking of those numbers as human beings !
The post to which I responded suggested, by extrapolation, that if the Israelis had suffered a similar number of casualties as the Palestinians, it would have would have been "fairer". Huh? :-?
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Nobody WINS a war,but if somebody started firing rockets into my home town i would expect my government to respond.I know there is far more to it than that but if you try to use force to achieve your goals it will inevitably be met with force especially by a side with superior firepower,but as i said nobody wins.
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Just looked at link, too one sided. so removing.
On the news tonight....758 Palestinian deaths......13 Israeli deaths..(5 of which were by friendly fire).
Gaza....stoneage..........Israel.......Superpower.....yep...too one sided sounds about right to me. :( :( :(
It's not about numbers. >:(
Try thinking of those numbers as human beings !
It's a pity that both sides don't think of each other as human beings instead of targets but it's been going on there for so long now like most of these long drawn out conflicts that it's become all to easy to just blame each other for the cause of the problems than it is to just get on together like the civilised people we are supposed to be :(.
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Just looked at link, too one sided. so removing.
On the news tonight....758 Palestinian deaths......13 Israeli deaths..(5 of which were by friendly fire).
Gaza....stoneage..........Israel.......Superpower.....yep...too one sided sounds about right to me. :( :( :(
It's not about numbers. >:(
Try thinking of those numbers as human beings !
The post to which I responded suggested, by extrapolation, that if the Israelis had suffered a similar number of casualties as the Palestinians, it would have would have been "fairer". Huh? :-?
I took it that the one sided comment was the Superpower against the "plot of land". Heck, some folk have back gardens bigger than Gaza.
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just wrote a reasonably lengthy reply and my phones battery died, lost the whole rather lot.
Short version,
Applaud Turk for posting it,
Should have had a warning,
May well be wise to remove it, dont know, not wise enough to know...or probably to comment at all, but i am allowed an opinion.
Not changed my mind after viewing, cried.
Debate it we should, and must, but as law abiding adults.
Turks post implies we are shallow, when we voted in Lizzies Poll.
Did we(those who voted yes) really think these scenes would not result? Of course they would.
Anyone with sense would stop rocket attacks.
As i wrote a member of Hammas was interviewed on hardtalk on bbc news24. there is no hope for the people of Gaza from what he says,rocket attacks will continue, he talks of nothing but occupation from the safety of a studio well away from Gaza while "his people" are blown to pieces, he denounced the Palestinian Prime minister for calling for an immediate ceasefire, which i have just seen him(the pm) do with pictures of a dead and bloodyed child to show the camera, i am speechless...
Apologies if anyone is offended, it is to the best of my knowledge and experience of life. If anyone wishes to educate me and help me understand please continue, in a responsible manor. If you have the strength left?
Your all probably in bed anyway, here goes...
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Israel observed a 3 hour humanitarian ceasefire yesterday to allow supplies in and medical staff to do their job,during this 3 hours Hamas were firing rockets into southern Israel,nuff said.
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Nooo, I don't think or mean to imply poll was shallow. Not at all. I polled !
Reference to poll was in response to a few posts saying "How dare I...this is car forum...!" (wtf...have these people actually noticed the range of topics covered in General Chat ?).
Yes, I should have posting a warning(again Sorry, not thinking !) and , the content may be a bit one sided, (sent to me by an Israeli :-?), but it can't be balanced out with images of Israeli casualties, because they don't exist on that scale (and I hope they don't happen). These are the scenes Israel don't want the world to see. Why else would reporting be restricted ?
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Israel observed a 3 hour humanitarian ceasefire yesterday to allow supplies in and medical staff to do their job,during this 3 hours Hamas were firing rockets into southern Israel,nuff said.
3 hrs !! To deal with how many people ??? And don't tell me, the rockets were fired from the clearly marked UN controlled building that Israel attacked.
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Israel observed a 3 hour humanitarian ceasefire yesterday to allow supplies in and medical staff to do their job,during this 3 hours Hamas were firing rockets into southern Israel,nuff said.
Hamas seem to be recruiting for the cause from the death of their own people, deaths caused by the response to their own actions. A response they knew full well would come. Hamas would appear to have renounced their own govt, for condemming that very attack. They made no attempt to deny it. And yet, in the interview on hardtalk, they did nothing but blame isreal for breaking that same 3hour ceasefire, it seems they feel no need to sound credible either.
The rest of the world can negotiate and agree all it likes, if Hamas dont agree as well, no point, no ceasefire, more deaths, more relatives and recruits to avenge those deaths.
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Nooo, I don't think or mean to imply poll was shallow. Not at all. I polled !
Reference to poll was in response to a few posts saying "How dare I...this is car forum...!" (wtf...have these people actually noticed the range of topics covered in General Chat ?).
Yes, I should have posting a warning(again Sorry, not thinking !) and , the content may be a bit one sided, (sent to me by an Israeli :-?), but it can't be balanced out with images of Israeli casualties, because they don't exist on that scale (and I hope they don't happen). These are the scenes Israel don't want the world to see. Why else would reporting be restricted ?
No no, i formed the "shallow" opinion if that was the right word, from your first post and title, that once the the link was viewed, you would expect opinion to change to No, Isreal is not justified. Or have i misunderstood?
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i dont know anything about whats going on over there, and we all only hear what the media tells us , fox bbc itv they all got there own angles,
your local rag tells you it snowed yesterday in your area in the middle of summer you would have to belive it although you didnt see it , if it wernt so why would they print it!
war is always wrong, people get slaughtered, and the media print the pictures to sell the papers,
we are all pawns in a game played by ruthless people boende our imagination!
911 , rwanda , mugabe , gaza is the topic for now , but its in all of us i guess, i think its about land aint it? then why do we all put fences around our property? :-/
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Don't know enough about the situation to be able (or want) to comment.
Want to applaud TB for his admin skills though. Must have been very tempting to just remove this thread!!!
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:-?
So much to say ..
But I will not repeat myself again..
Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians , before and now and then using every chance..
So at least for me, its impossible to be objective about the un balanced struggle in the picture of those civil deaths..
Israel shoot directly at schools, organizations even some belonging to UN.. I hope god one day give their punishment >:( >:( >:( >:(
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:-?
So much to say ..
But I will not repeat myself again..
Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians , before and now and then using every chance..
So at least for me, its impossible to be objective about the un balanced struggle in the picture of those civil deaths..
Israel shoot directly at schools, organizations even some belonging to UN.. I hope god one day give their punishment >:( >:( >:( >:(
I believe you are right. But I also believe that the Palestinians want to wipe out Israel as much as Isreal wipe out Palestine.
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On a plus point.....given that arms are a big UK export....it might help our economy a bit
[size=8](obviously a tongue in cheek comment!)[/size]
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On a plus point.....given that arms are a big UK export....it might help our economy a bit
[size=8](obviously a tongue in cheek comment!)[/size]
I nearly wrote that war is good for global economies, but though that too controversial :P
Though I suspect Israel gets a fair amount from US, hence them abstaining from UN vote?
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On a plus point.....given that arms are a big UK export....it might help our economy a bit
[size=8](obviously a tongue in cheek comment!)[/size]
economical point of view ..
much too realistic ;D
anyway either UK or another country will sell weapons to Israel..so doesnt effect the picture..
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:-?
So much to say ..
But I will not repeat myself again..
Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians , before and now and then using every chance..
So at least for me, its impossible to be objective about the un balanced struggle in the picture of those civil deaths..
Israel shoot directly at schools, organizations even some belonging to UN.. I hope god one day give their punishment >:( >:( >:( >:(
I believe you are right. But I also believe that the Palestinians want to wipe out Israel as much as Isreal wipe out Palestine.
Palestinians know the fact that they have no power :(
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:-?
Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians , before and now and then using every chance..
Israel shoot directly at schools, organizations even some belonging to UN.
Of course, no doubt about it, given the behaviour of Hamas i am not suprised.
If it where not for rocket attacks, non of there things would have happened. Although the comments of the red cross are important"Isreal had no excuse, un sites and movements are clearly marked and notified"
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I think it rather poetic that Israel be on the receiving end (not that I applaud such activity of course) of terrorist activites when it was the Isrealis who practically invented modern terrorism when the Brits were so-called 'occupiers' in the 50's
I have been on the receiving end of the same rockets that Hamas use (made in China interestingly) and trust me they are awful. Not very accurate but they do have a large killing radius and when one lands several hundred meters away your bowels move pretty quick too.
The US seems to be defacto supporting this land-grab by not denouncing it publically, trust me if they did then Israel would stop pretty much immediately. The last time they enetered the Strip and left Hamas used it as massive propeganda that they had won etc. I wonder how it will pan out this time.
This seems 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. If you dont want to get bitten on the arse then dont kick the dog :y
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i dont have any interest in other countries problems or the politics involved, it will always be the same today or a million yrs time. the problems will always be there. wether it be famine in africa terrorism in the middle east and so on. either the world leaders should all unite and say enough is enough,leave them to it or nuke the tinkers off the earth
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:-?
So much to say ..
But I will not repeat myself again..
Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians , before and now and then using every chance..
So at least for me, its impossible to be objective about the un balanced struggle in the picture of those civil deaths..
Israel shoot directly at schools, organizations even some belonging to UN.. I hope god one day give their punishment >:( >:( >:( >:(
Agreed Cem.......I started off this Israeli/Palestine conflict by trying to be objective........but the longer it goes on ....the more I can feel my personal subjective views come through.
Israel is nothing more than a outpost for the USA........George Bush ....has the chance to speak out about the conflict .......but chooses to do nothing.....Gordon Brown could and should do the same.......but also does little or nothing.
Israel has control over Gaza......over water ....electricity .....over food....Israel needs to be condemned by western governments ...then the Israeli aggression would cease.
Israel with the consent of the USA ....is a power unto itself...Any United Nations resolutions that Israel does not like .......it ignores. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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has anyone ever read this. was from last yr when it kicked off.
http://docstalk.blogspot.com/2008/03/islam-is-not-religion-nor-is-it-cult-it_16.html
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
No need to lock this thread Nickbat......it is obviously a contentious subject.......but.....it's fine if we agree .........and it's fine if we don't.
Last thing we want is a bland....dreary ...PC forum. :y :y :y
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:-?
So much to say ..
But I will not repeat myself again..
Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians , before and now and then using every chance..
So at least for me, its impossible to be objective about the un balanced struggle in the picture of those civil deaths..
Israel shoot directly at schools, organizations even some belonging to UN.. I hope god one day give their punishment >:( >:( >:( >:(
Agreed Cem.......I started off this Israeli/Palestine conflict by trying to be objective........but the longer it goes on ....the more I can feel my personal subjective views come through.
Israel is nothing more than a outpost for the USA........George Bush ....has the chance to speak out about the conflict .......but chooses to do nothing.....Gordon Brown could and should do the same.......but also does little or nothing.
Israel has control over Gaza......over water ....electricity .....over food....Israel needs to be condemned by western governments ...then the Israeli aggression would cease.
Israel with the consent of the USA ....is a power unto itself...Any United Nations resolutions that Israel does not like .......it ignores. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Cant say any better :y :y :y
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
No need to lock this thread Nickbat......it is obviously a contentious subject.......but.....it's fine if we agree .........and it's fine if we don't.
Last thing we want is a bland....dreary ...PC forum. :y :y :y
Well said Optimist (yet again!! :D :D) as we thank God live in a democracy where we can express our opinions one way or another, and so should be able to do so freely on our great British based Forum. :y :y
Sometimes we debate passionately; sometimes we disagree strongly, and other times we heartily agree, but always we are true to our feelings, right or wrong. Afterwards we usually get on and discussed far less "heavy" issues, like the merits of one car over another. Isn't democracy and free speech lovely! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
As for the Gaza affair; I have said my bit of my previous thread
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825
and have nothing else worthwhile to add. However, in my opinion every member has every right to continue participating in this thread or not, no matter how controversial the comment, and how personally distasteful I find it. 8-) 8-) 8-)
We are adults and friends here I like to believe, who can make their own decisions. :D :D ;)
Well done to the Admins for yet again managing this Forum to perfection!! :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
No need to lock this thread Nickbat......it is obviously a contentious subject.......but.....it's fine if we agree .........and it's fine if we don't.
Last thing we want is a bland....dreary ...PC forum. :y :y :y
Well said Optimist (yet again!! :D :D) as we thank God live in a democracy where we can express our opinions one way or another, and so should be able to do so freely on our great British based Forum. :y :y
Sometimes we debate passionately; sometimes we disagree strongly, and other times we heartily agree, but always we are true to our feelings, right or wrong. Afterwards we usually get on and discussed far less "heavy" issues, like the merits of one car over another. Isn't democracy and free speech lovely! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
As for the Gaza affair; I have said my bit of my previous thread
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825
and have nothing else worthwhile to add. However, in my opinion every member has every right to continue participating in this thread or not, no matter how controversial the comment, and how personally distasteful I find it. 8-) 8-) 8-)
We are adults and friends here I like to believe, who can make their own decisions. :D :D ;)
Well done to the Admins for yet again managing this Forum to perfection!! :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
Totally agree, Lizzie. Just hope threads of this nature do not cause Admin too much grief,work, stress, they have enough to do. Only for that reason should they pull the plug, imho.
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
No need to lock this thread Nickbat......it is obviously a contentious subject.......but.....it's fine if we agree .........and it's fine if we don't.
Last thing we want is a bland....dreary ...PC forum. :y :y :y
Well said Optimist (yet again!! :D :D) as we thank God live in a democracy where we can express our opinions one way or another, and so should be able to do so freely on our great British based Forum. :y :y
Sometimes we debate passionately; sometimes we disagree strongly, and other times we heartily agree, but always we are true to our feelings, right or wrong. Afterwards we usually get on and discussed far less "heavy" issues, like the merits of one car over another. Isn't democracy and free speech lovely! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
As for the Gaza affair; I have said my bit of my previous thread
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825
and have nothing else worthwhile to add. However, in my opinion every member has every right to continue participating in this thread or not, no matter how controversial the comment, and how personally distasteful I find it. 8-) 8-) 8-)
We are adults and friends here I like to believe, who can make their own decisions. :D :D ;)
Well done to the Admins for yet again managing this Forum to perfection!! :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
Lizzie, you know that I'm a firm believer in free speech and I am not suggesting censorship. It's just that we all need to be careful about this particular issue. It is highly emotional and we have, I think, a broad membership. If accusations about the behaviour of either the Palestinians or the Israelis become too strong, we risk deeply upsetting some members, IMHO.
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
No need to lock this thread Nickbat......it is obviously a contentious subject.......but.....it's fine if we agree .........and it's fine if we don't.
Last thing we want is a bland....dreary ...PC forum. :y :y :y
Well said Optimist (yet again!! :D :D) as we thank God live in a democracy where we can express our opinions one way or another, and so should be able to do so freely on our great British based Forum. :y :y
Sometimes we debate passionately; sometimes we disagree strongly, and other times we heartily agree, but always we are true to our feelings, right or wrong. Afterwards we usually get on and discussed far less "heavy" issues, like the merits of one car over another. Isn't democracy and free speech lovely! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
As for the Gaza affair; I have said my bit of my previous thread
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825
and have nothing else worthwhile to add. However, in my opinion every member has every right to continue participating in this thread or not, no matter how controversial the comment, and how personally distasteful I find it. 8-) 8-) 8-)
We are adults and friends here I like to believe, who can make their own decisions. :D :D ;)
Well done to the Admins for yet again managing this Forum to perfection!! :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
Lizzie, you know that I'm a firm believer in free speech and I am not suggesting censorship. It's just that we all need to be careful about this particular issue. It is highly emotional and we have, I think, a broad membership. If accusations about the behaviour of either the Palestinians or the Israelis become too strong, we risk deeply upsetting some members, IMHO.
I take your point completely Nickbat,and we should of course remember our membership is International, so no doubt includes those who sit both sides of the fence in Gaza and Israel. :y :y :y
However, free speech should not be restricted just because we fear a risk of upsetting certain members. In that way we create the very thing many of us fear, a completely "politically correct", sanitized, cotton wool protected society that cannot discuss anything in case we upset someone! ::) ::) ::)
In fact I am sure that many would have been extremely interested in the balanced views, along with any extreme ones, as they are probably only too pleased that we in Britain care enough about their plight to make comment in our free society, known to be usually balanced and fair. :)
However, for those deeply involved in this conflict I feel sure have other things to worry about than a few comments on a British based car forum! :D :D ;)
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
No need to lock this thread Nickbat......it is obviously a contentious subject.......but.....it's fine if we agree .........and it's fine if we don't.
Last thing we want is a bland....dreary ...PC forum. :y :y :y
Well said Optimist (yet again!! :D :D) as we thank God live in a democracy where we can express our opinions one way or another, and so should be able to do so freely on our great British based Forum. :y :y
Sometimes we debate passionately; sometimes we disagree strongly, and other times we heartily agree, but always we are true to our feelings, right or wrong. Afterwards we usually get on and discussed far less "heavy" issues, like the merits of one car over another. Isn't democracy and free speech lovely! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
As for the Gaza affair; I have said my bit of my previous thread
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825
and have nothing else worthwhile to add. However, in my opinion every member has every right to continue participating in this thread or not, no matter how controversial the comment, and how personally distasteful I find it. 8-) 8-) 8-)
We are adults and friends here I like to believe, who can make their own decisions. :D :D ;)
Well done to the Admins for yet again managing this Forum to perfection!! :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
Lizzie, you know that I'm a firm believer in free speech and I am not suggesting censorship. It's just that we all need to be careful about this particular issue. It is highly emotional and we have, I think, a broad membership. If accusations about the behaviour of either the Palestinians or the Israelis become too strong, we risk deeply upsetting some members, IMHO.
Then those offended should inform us and post reasons why, so we can apologise/explane/debate/understand the other point of view, in a lawfull and responsible manor. In that way we come together, hopefully, respect the other point of view, and become a community in piece. Do you see the comparison? Call me naive if you like.
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I think this thread needs locking. I can see emotions becoming too heated and, sooner or later, there will be an outbreak of nastiness and the forum will suffer for it. :( :(
No need to lock this thread Nickbat......it is obviously a contentious subject.......but.....it's fine if we agree .........and it's fine if we don't.
Last thing we want is a bland....dreary ...PC forum. :y :y :y
Well said Optimist (yet again!! :D :D) as we thank God live in a democracy where we can express our opinions one way or another, and so should be able to do so freely on our great British based Forum. :y :y
Sometimes we debate passionately; sometimes we disagree strongly, and other times we heartily agree, but always we are true to our feelings, right or wrong. Afterwards we usually get on and discussed far less "heavy" issues, like the merits of one car over another. Isn't democracy and free speech lovely! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
As for the Gaza affair; I have said my bit of my previous thread
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231074825
and have nothing else worthwhile to add. However, in my opinion every member has every right to continue participating in this thread or not, no matter how controversial the comment, and how personally distasteful I find it. 8-) 8-) 8-)
We are adults and friends here I like to believe, who can make their own decisions. :D :D ;)
Well done to the Admins for yet again managing this Forum to perfection!! :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
Lizzie, you know that I'm a firm believer in free speech and I am not suggesting censorship. It's just that we all need to be careful about this particular issue. It is highly emotional and we have, I think, a broad membership. If accusations about the behaviour of either the Palestinians or the Israelis become too strong, we risk deeply upsetting some members, IMHO.
I take your point completely Nickbat,and we should of course remember our membership is International, so no doubt includes those who sit both sides of the fence in Gaza and Israel. :y :y :y
However, free speech should not be restricted just because we fear a risk of upsetting certain members. In that way we create the very thing many of us fear, a completely "politically correct", sanitized, cotton wool protected society that cannot discuss anything in case we upset someone! ::) ::) ::)
In fact I am sure that many would have been extremely interested in the balanced views, along with any extreme ones, as they are probably only too pleased that we in Britain care enough about their plight to make comment in our free society, known to be usually balanced and fair. :)
However, for those deeply involved in this conflict I feel sure have other things to worry about than a few comments on a British based car forum! :D :D ;)
Yes spot on Lizzie.......free speech is free speech.......I have my views.....but I do not in any way try to deliberately offend people just........ for the sake of it.
But it is very difficult to have free speech up to a point ......and then......................no free speech.....as Nickbat seems to suggest......(although...I can see his point)
I believe the forum rules regarding "general chat".....are ......speak about anything you like .....but keep it .....legal ...and polite. :y :y :y
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im staying (nearly) neutral, but i wonder what conflict would arise if hamas did not fire rockets into israel?
i would not punch my neighbour (who i dont like) if he didnt chuck litter in my garden !!
different religions, different upbringings and brainwashed thoughts- they aint ever gonna sort it out !!! ::)
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Well, this thread is my fault, and posting that link without a suitable and clear warning as to the content was grossly irresponsible on my part :-[, but I don't think I've clarified, it was not posted as pro-Israeli or pro-Hamas. It was to highlight the pain and suffering of the civilian people of Gaza.
It's very much six of one and half a dozen of the other.
One news clip shows Israel attacking a Mosque. There is the initial explosion of the rocket and then an almighty secondary explosion as the ammunition hidden in the Mosque exploded.
The innocent civilians are the ones to suffer most.
And yet again American Govt. shows it's true colours by abstaining from the vote.
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One news clip shows Israel attacking a Mosque. There is the initial explosion of the rocket and then an almighty secondary explosion as the ammunition hidden in the Mosque exploded.
That isn't on!
Civilians on both sides as well - most people just want peace.
TBH Hamas should not have kept provoking with the rockets.
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But Hamas would never hide ammunition in a Mosque, or place a rocket firing point in a school/hospital/housing area.
This is all just propoganda by American backed press/BBC/Jews
I can see all the Israeli haters sharpening their pencils already.
Unfortunately there are those that actually believe the above to be true.
Hamas have a POLICY of trying to make casualties on their side in order to obtain "sympathy" for their "cause" ... which has nothing to with religion or land.
It is, and always will be .. about POWER ... that is the Arab way and has been for thousands of years
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Question :
do you believe if Hamas wont be there, Israel will do nothing and stay peacefully..
Thats funny..
edit:
and who create the image of islamic terorists and pay money to them on the background and give them arms..
and even make them a real pain for their believers..
and who own most of those media.. sorry but if you dont want to see
no one can force you..
and before the oil how was the middle east and now how is ?
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Why Hamas is Not the Issue ?
Here are views from a Professor in Boston College..
"During the first Palestinian Intifada (literally “shaking off” the occupation), a Hamas resistance military wing was formed. Israel and the US favored and met with Islamic Hamas leadership as a counterforce to the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Fatah faction then dominant in the Intifada. As Hamas later strengthened, Israel reversed the process"
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/01/gaza-history-matters.html
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I'm not qualified to comment either way, but was digging deep through my music collection tonight and found some lyrics that I found poignant.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/m/marillion/forgotten+sons_20088912.html
Kevin
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Why Hamas is Not the Issue ?
Here are views from a Professor in Boston College..
"During the first Palestinian Intifada (literally shaking off the occupation), a Hamas resistance military wing was formed. Israel and the US favored and met with Islamic Hamas leadership as a counterforce to the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Fatah faction then dominant in the Intifada. As Hamas later strengthened, Israel reversed the process"
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/01/gaza-history-matters.html
Hi Cem, do you think hamas should agree to the cease fire? Which, obviously includes a halt to rocket attacks.
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Why Hamas is Not the Issue ?
Here are views from a Professor in Boston College..
"During the first Palestinian Intifada (literally
shaking off
the occupation), a Hamas resistance military wing was formed. Israel and the US favored and met with Islamic Hamas leadership as a counterforce to the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Fatah faction then dominant in the Intifada. As Hamas later strengthened, Israel reversed the process"
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/01/gaza-history-matters.html
Hi Cem, do you think hamas should agree to the cease fire? Which, obviously includes a halt to rocket attacks.
of course yes..
however I have suspicions that Hamas been used indirectly ..
Having strong religious motives they are very suitable for Israel And US to abuse..
edit:
if military power is on the scene Palestinians can get only death..
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Why Hamas is Not the Issue ?
Here are views from a Professor in Boston College..
"During the first Palestinian Intifada (literally
shaking off
the occupation), a Hamas resistance military wing was formed. Israel and the US favored and met with Islamic Hamas leadership as a counterforce to the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Fatah faction then dominant in the Intifada. As Hamas later strengthened, Israel reversed the process"
http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/01/gaza-history-matters.html
Hi Cem, do you think hamas should agree to the cease fire? Which, obviously includes a halt to rocket attacks.
of course yes..
however I have suspicions that Hamas been used indirectly ..
Having strong religious motives they are very suitable for Israel And US to abuse..
edit:
if military power is on the scene Palestinians can get only death..
And if Hamas stop, to answer your previous question, I beleive isreal will withdraw, they must, they did vote to agree to the Un ceasefire resolution, (when the U.S. abstained, and Hamas did not even attend), but when Hamas refuse to ceasefire the whole process became pointless. The ceasefire, in U.N. eyes at least, is for the good of the people of Gaza. It seems the people of Gaza do not agree? Although the Plastiniam president pleaded(in effect) for Hamas to stop, hamas official then renounced him, live on tv, in a one to one interview, no gun to head on either side, live in the heat of the moment, no sensorship, no B.S.
This is the situation, no doubt about it, so hamas must be to blame, yes there are other angles and side shows, in the first instance these are not important to the immediate life/death of the people of Gaza, after the cease fire yes, but not in the ceasefire process which is the first step......imho :-)
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i thought peeps would have had enough of this thread by now :-X
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No matter people,countries,organizations talk and debate and agree and think ,Israel have a master plan that no one ever can stop them to follow.. History prooved that..
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No matter people,countries,organizations talk and debate and agree and think ,Israel have a master plan that no one ever can stop them to follow.. History prooved that..
How very true, and they revel in 'victim status'
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
In a nutshell!! Thank you
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
That's some imagination you've got :y
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there is clearly more to it all than given to us via the media, and we are looking at it through western eyes, there are cultural differences that drive people in different ways , killing inoccent people clearly is not right, but the mind set is different , whats valued in the western world by you and me differs in other parts of the world clearly!
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
That's some imagination you've got :y
poetic licence? ;)
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
Good analogy........well said. :y :y :y
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
Good analogy........well said. :y :y :y
but is it ? :-/
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
very good empathy :y
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
That's some imagination you've got :y
Hmm...true...but it's the French ! ;D
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I have read this thread for some days ,and with some interest.
Although I am certainly no expert on conflict in the middle east,this is my opinion.
I think that Palestinians see it like this.
In 1948 much of their land was given away against their will mainly by the USA and Britain to make the new country of Israel.
The Palestinians were not well pleased.
They became even less happy ,when in 1967 Israel decided that they needed more land and so decided to start a war by invading other parts of the middle east and Palestine.
Although this broke many U.N .resolutions, Israel was able to get away with this because of huge backing from the USA,who wished for a friendly face in the region.
I believe that the Israeli people see it like this.
Any land in the region was theirs to begin with,and that Israel had a devine right to all lands in the region.
In my opinion ,most of Israel claim on land seems to come from obscure biblical reference and text.
It appears to have little legitimacy in modern day law.
It seem to me that Israel has occupied and controlled part of Gaza/Palestine for the last 42 years,with the help of the USA. :-/ :-/ :-/ :-*
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
That's some imagination you've got :y
Hmm...true...but it's the French ! ;D
would never happen, french are too lazy to do anything after a couple of hrs work. too busy riding there bikes and blocking the ports ;D ;D
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just watching the news :
Israel soldiers collect 110 palestinian in a house (mostly families) and say "this home is secure stay here" and then..the next day jets bomb the house and 33 is dead...
UN: this is a war crime >:( >:( >:( >:(
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have been reading these posts with interest - and far from being an expert i can sum it up quite easily - and this is for those memberes who say they don't care what goes on in other countries - well lets look at the problem using the UK instead of Palestine.
Imagine France didn't exist, but there were millions of French people who were persecuted during WW2 much to the shame of the allies - in a fit of guilt, they decree that henceforth all French people shall have England as their rightful home. What about all the English living in England? - well shove them all into refugee camps in Cornwall and wall it off - if they try to leave, shoot them.
Now the English trapped in Cornwall start getting underground help from the scots, Welsh and Irish and arm themselves with bombs and missiles, targetting the towns and cities where they used to live but were forced out.
London - backed by the USA (who's successive governments cannot afford to piss of the huge and powerful French voice) starts bombing back, Cornwall starts sending suicide bombers, missiles and rockets, London bombs back and so on and so forth.
Now, if you were an Englishman, forced to live in a tent in Cornwall while the French took all your homes and land, would you be happy about it? or would you never rest until you'd driven the French out of England?
Now theres more to it than that - but thats the gist.
The atrocities committed by Nazi-Germany on the Jewish people will never and cannot be forgotten - it does not give Israel a divine right to kill thousands of innocents - they of all people should know that. :(
I have tried to put my self in the position of the Palestinians, by a very similar comparison to yours and while i admit i do not know the history of the region past my own memory of live events in the media, in simple terms as you have put it, its impossible not to agree, i would resist.
But two things do not add up in the real Gaza situation for me...
1, the region has been so unstable and claimed to be "owned" by so many for so long, how can any one group take any part as their own over any other?
2, regardless of 1 above, both sides have agreed to ceasefires in the past, my recollection is only Israel's opponents break said caesefire? although i am not certain my recollection is entirely correct, i am certain this time around in the current crisis.
Imho.... ;)