Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: TheBoy on 09 January 2007, 21:20:38
-
Right, one for the Rover people here, I know there are a couple...
Looks like HG has gone on our Rover 25 - 1.6, made Feb 2000, 70k miles.
Is this a DIY job? How difficult, and any guides?
How much do you think from garage?
Bit gutted, as we need 2 cars, and being one down is causing us a big problem. Even if it is DIY job, not entirely sure its within my capabilities :(
-
Not so bad a job.....would want a cambelt change whilst at it....
-
Not so bad a job.....would want a cambelt change whilst at it....
Is it just belt, or are tensioners/rollers to be changed? Any special tools?
-
Right, one for the Rover people here, I know there are a couple...
Looks like HG has gone on our Rover 25 - 1.6, made Feb 2000, 70k miles.
Is this a DIY job? How difficult, and any guides?
How much do you think from garage?
Bit gutted, as we need 2 cars, and being one down is causing us a big problem. Even if it is DIY job, not entirely sure its within my capabilities :(
My advice is scrap it.....what you need is a low mileage merc diesel....i might know someone selling one ;)
-
Right, one for the Rover people here, I know there are a couple...
Looks like HG has gone on our Rover 25 - 1.6, made Feb 2000, 70k miles.
Is this a DIY job? How difficult, and any guides?
How much do you think from garage?
Bit gutted, as we need 2 cars, and being one down is causing us a big problem. Even if it is DIY job, not entirely sure its within my capabilities :(
My advice is scrap it.....what you need is a low mileage merc diesel....i might know someone selling one ;)
Will it be as cheap as a new head gasket?
-
Jaime, is it a K series mate?
I'm not joking, I've owned many Rovers, and am extremely confdent with the K series, and have the valve timing stuff.
PM me if you like. You're only an hours drive away, we could do it together - doddle.
-
Jaime, is it a K series mate?
I'm not joking, I've owned many Rovers, and am extremely confdent with the K series, and have the valve timing stuff.
PM me if you like. You're only an hours drive away, we could do it together - doddle.
Yes, 1.6 K series...
-
When a HG goes, does the head need skimming?
-
I've done many HGs on K series, I was a rover freak until I fell in love with the Meega! I changed my first 2 Rover K series HGs when I was 17 ;D
(Case of no money for garage bills, and needing wheels!)
If you want to have a crack at it together, I'm game.
-
When a HG goes, does the head need skimming?
In my experience, as long as it's DEFINATELY not overheated much, then no. I've never skimmed them, and they've been fine after a HG change.
IT can do more harm than good if it's not overheated sometimes.
-
Right, one for the Rover people here, I know there are a couple...
Looks like HG has gone on our Rover 25 - 1.6, made Feb 2000, 70k miles.
Is this a DIY job? How difficult, and any guides?
How much do you think from garage?
Bit gutted, as we need 2 cars, and being one down is causing us a big problem. Even if it is DIY job, not entirely sure its within my capabilities :(
My advice is scrap it.....what you need is a low mileage merc diesel....i might know someone selling one ;)
Will it be as cheap as a new head gasket?
Head gaskets are a fantistic amount on Rovers.....almost as much as hardly run in merc diesel ;D
-
When a HG goes, does the head need skimming?
In my experience, as long as it's DEFINATELY not overheated much, then no. I've never skimmed them, and they've been fine after a HG change.
IT can do more harm than good if it's not overheated sometimes.
The info I have is:
She called me at 5:05pm (from side of road) today, saying something wrong with car - she said the heater wasn't working and that it was 'gutless' and didn't want to go. Strangely enough, when I was washing it on Sat, I was thinking how long HG would last, so that was my first thought. So I asked she what temp was, and she said just over halfway, but going up. Sounds like it got to about 3/4 of way. She walked home (she was only a mile or so away by then), and we towed it home when I got home
-
Jaime,
I am coming back this weekend, be back very late Friday night. However if you need a second pair of hands during the weekend, i'd be happy to give some help. Its way past my skills to advise as you know.... but if you need any extra help :y
-
Jaime,
I am coming back this weekend, be back very late Friday night. However if you need a second pair of hands during the weekend, i'd be happy to give some help. Its way past my skills to advise as you know.... but if you need any extra help :y
Thanks for the kind offer Tunnie :y.
If I need you, I'll give you a bell...
-
PM replied to Jaime.
Lets make some arrangements and get it sorted.
-
Jaime,
I am coming back this weekend, be back very late Friday night. However if you need a second pair of hands during the weekend, i'd be happy to give some help. Its way past my skills to advise as you know.... but if you need any extra help :y
Thanks for the kind offer Tunnie :y.
If I need you, I'll give you a bell...
I may pop over to Swindon at some point to look at a Senator, not sure how likely this is at the moment. But i'll be around most of the weekend.
-
Just for info, I had an "H" reg rover 214 K series in my youthful days when I was 17 (I'm only 23 now, going on 30 :)
The HG blew at bristol, and I had lost all love for the car due to having my 405 diesel sat at home, so drove it with the temp guage on the red for MANY MILES up the motorway!! IT kept going, was gutless.. and when I stopped in the services it blew shedloads of black smoke out the back.. I guessed oil getting through the blown HG!
I thought I'd change it for fun at the time, BUT - a quick skim of the head and a new gasket, it ran fine again!!
Good engines, great mix of power and economy.. the only fault is HGs often blowing, but definately a DIY and cheap job to change.
-
Just for info, I had an "H" reg rover 214 K series in my youthful days when I was 17 (I'm only 23 now, going on 30 :)
The HG blew at bristol, and I had lost all love for the car due to having my 405 diesel sat at home, so drove it with the temp guage on the red for MANY MILES up the motorway!! IT kept going, was gutless.. and when I stopped in the services it blew shedloads of black smoke out the back.. I guessed oil getting through the blown HG!
I thought I'd change it for fun at the time, BUT - a quick skim of the head and a new gasket, it ran fine again!!
Good engines, great mix of power and economy.. the only fault is HGs often blowing, but definately a DIY and cheap job to change.
I think the engine is probably not up to performance of more modern designs (though more powerful than the 1.6 Zetec in the Focus we had), but the K series is nearly 20yrs old now...
-
Agreed, but I still am fond of the old lumps, they make such a nice noise!!
I'm off to bed in a min, but drop me a PM and we'll sort out a date for changing your HG tomorrow..
-
Good Old K series :-X
Ok not hard to do - least you have space to work.
Yes do belt and tensioners as norm and at least its a single head and its not a vvc.
Skimming......take the head off and have it measured to see if it warped DONT skim it as a matter of course.
If it was run and overcooked then its a probable though.
I take it you have the white spots or gunk on dipstick and in coolant?
Do it yourself and with skimming you will have change from £200. Make sure your new gasket is post 2001 land rover as these are MUCH improved.
Drop me a pm if you need any assistance :y
-
in fact reading again i am not 101% its hgf.....ive had two Rovers on this and they still drive ( although not recommended) If fact i drove one to Bristol!!
:-/ :-/
-
I am sure.....classic symptoms, the only additional diag I would do is a header tank sniff......
The K series, when considered as a whole....is a well below average engine.....its to weak and lacks low down torque....
Not to bad a job to do though....watch skimming the heads though (not sure of you can on these.....) although I suspect in reality you wont need to.
Plenty of ebay suppliers selling the kits....
-
I am sure.....classic symptoms, the only additional diag I would do is a header tank sniff......
The K series, when considered as a whole....is a well below average engine.....its to weak and lacks low down torque....
Not to bad a job to do though....watch skimming the heads though (not sure of you can on these.....) although I suspect in reality you wont need to.
Plenty of ebay suppliers selling the kits....
you are of course almost probably 100% correct...its just a wierd symptom amoung the 4 or 5 classic symptoms.
still an easy( ish) job to do and not dear ;)
-
The K series, when considered as a whole....is a well below average engine.....its to weak and lacks low down torque....
Can't comment on its strength, though HG does seem to be a problem area. Its a revvy engine, and needs to be revved to perform. But then so do 1.6 Zetecs and 1.6 ECOTECs. Performance (and torque) I would say the K is up there with most of the others, and way better that the Zetec...
-
in fact reading again i am not 101% its hgf.....ive had two Rovers on this and they still drive ( although not recommended) If fact i drove one to Bristol!!
:-/ :-/
Last night, I sniffed header tank. Same smell as a very rich running car.
This morning, in daylight, checked a few other bits. Mayo under cap. No coolant left in coolant bottle.
Any other test I could do tomorrow in daylight (I'm at home tomorrow)?
-
Sounds very much like HG still dude.
Like I say, if it's not overheated, we'll change the top end gaskets...
How were those dates I Sent?
-
Sounds very much like HG still dude.
Like I say, if it's not overheated, we'll change the top end gaskets...
How were those dates I Sent?
I replied to email, but need to reply again (work commitments >:()
-
Sounds very much like HG still dude.
Like I say, if it's not overheated, we'll change the top end gaskets...
How were those dates I Sent?
I replied to email, but need to reply again (work commitments >:()
New email sent.
The half day may be a problem, the the other 2 full days are fine :) :y
-
Cool..
Can't check my mail right at the minute, but lets aim to do it across those two full days then.
We'll have to take a few pics to post up :P
-
#We'll have to take a few pics to post up :P
Absolutely ;)
We'll convert this Omega lot to Rover. Not.
-
Hell no!!
Gimme VX any day,
-
K series blinding 4 pot. So good that Lotus used it in the Elise for years. It was the best weight torque bhp at the time. They ended up with a regular 190 bhp out 1.8 normally aspirated in the Exige now thats not bad. Very stong for its size, The head bolts run right through block and clamp the main bearing carrier to the block as well.(although there are smaller bolts down there to stop carrier falling off when head removed) creating a strong sandwich effect clamping whole engine together.
When you replace head you can reuse bolts but you have to measure them to make sure they haven't stretched to much, supplier of bolts would be able to tell measurements, or quick call to local landrover dealer they are usually quite helpfull. you shouldn't turn engine over with head removed but if you do do it very slowly to prevent main bearing shells spinning. Only other thing i can think of is be very carefull when replacing head so as not to damage rubber seal on gasket, very easily done. Tough heads and don't normally need a skim, use straight edge and check with feeler gauges, usual stuff.
If you can work on 'meega v6 this will be a doddle, Good luck :y
-
K series blinding 4 pot. So good that Lotus used it in the Elise for years. It was the best weight torque bhp at the time. They ended up with a regular 190 bhp out 1.8 normally aspirated in the Exige now thats not bad. Very stong for its size, The head bolts run right through block and clamp the main bearing carrier to the block as well.(although there are smaller bolts down there to stop carrier falling off when head removed) creating a strong sandwich effect clamping whole engine together.
When you replace head you can reuse bolts but you have to measure them to make sure they haven't stretched to much, supplier of bolts would be able to tell measurements, or quick call to local landrover dealer they are usually quite helpfull. you shouldn't turn engine over with head removed but if you do do it very slowly to prevent main bearing shells spinning. Only other thing i can think of is be very carefull when replacing head so as not to damage rubber seal on gasket, very easily done. Tough heads and don't normally need a skim, use straight edge and check with feeler gauges, usual stuff.
If you can work on 'meega v6 this will be a doddle, Good luck :y
Thanks for info/advice :y
-
Hi TheBoy just remembered something else, while you've got the head off replace the thermostat as it sits under the inlet manifold on the back of the front casing and is an akward job to do when its all together, also check the metal coolant pipe off the back of it as this is prone to rusting from the outside in! Use to paint them with some heatproof paint to prolong life :y
-
Thanks for the input mate. Agreed for the most - engine turning needs to be kept to a minimum when the head's off, but if it does need to be turned a fraction then you can do so, if gentle on the crank.
I'm very hopeful we'll use new head bolts as a matter of course, seems a faff measuring them and risking it when they're only about £20 a set.. ;D
-
To me this was a good engine fatally flawed by Rovers cheap cost cutting.
Agreed its used in the Lotus and many Kit Cars.....however amoung other things that gasket is a major flaw.
They were however told by Lotus about this early on and decided to ignore it and not change the design :(
-
My view of the HG problem is because it was designed as a 1.1, and has been bored out further for others. The 1.8 was the most prone. Is this right, or is it another design issue?
-
My view of the HG problem is because it was designed as a 1.1, and has been bored out further for others. The 1.8 was the most prone. Is this right, or is it another design issue?
From experience the 1.8`s VVC`s (143bhp) are VERY prone to goint and hard to fix.
However the twin cam 1.8 (120ish) doesnt have a record of this.
1.6`s are okay and usually 1.4`s are the most frequent to go.
Think the original K was from a 1.4 or 1.6 engine as certainly in the rover 200 series/ 25 series the 1.1`s came a bit later into production :-/
-
..and the original head gasket is utter garbage and was eventually redesigned and put into later freelanders.
Hence ALWAYS get a post 2001 designed gasket.(or paynes)
-
My view of the HG problem is because it was designed as a 1.1, and has been bored out further for others. The 1.8 was the most prone. Is this right, or is it another design issue?
From experience the 1.8`s VVC`s (143bhp) are VERY prone to goint and hard to fix.
However the twin cam 1.8 (120ish) doesnt have a record of this.
1.6`s are okay and usually 1.4`s are the most frequent to go.
Think the original K was from a 1.4 or 1.6 engine as certainly in the rover 200 series/ 25 series the 1.1`s came a bit later into production :-/
I though the 1.1 was the first out, and fitted to Metros, followed by 1.4?
Is 1.4 more common failure simply because there are far more 1.4s?
Mine is a 1.6, and failed. Always had regular coolant changes (told old coolant may be a cause), though last change in the summer, I flushed and put in Vx Red - was this a mistake?
-
As an engine fan I followed the development.
Started as the 10nbhp 1.4 16 valve for Rover 200 then a 1.1 and 1.4 8v for Metro.
The 1600 is a bored out 1400 to replace a Honda lump.
1.8 is stroked 1.6 AFAIR
-
The wife has a 1.4 25 (2001). Its a stop gap till March when she wants to swap it for an Alfa 147 (not sure which is more fragile?)
Anyway, I knew the bloke we got it from. HG had gone and he had replaced it. Talking it through with him, he told me that the original HG on cars up to 2001 were paper based. Replacement ones are metal?
One thing he did say, always replace the bolts.
-
I know the bolts are stretch bolts that go all way through block. When I did engineering A level, I was taught to never reuse stretch bolts...
-
To many floors on this engine.....and a very poor torque curve to hence why Honda never used it and modifed it for variable valve timing as standard....awful to drive in the heavier cars (absolutely terrible in the freelander aplications!)
Some think that the through bolts are a good idea.....in race aplications yes but, then you would use studs not bolts to get a greater clamping force.
Not actualy that big a favourite in kit cars, the red top vauxhall, Honda 4AGE and Zetec are much more popular mainly due to the high level of unreliabilty in the K series and the difficulty in getting a good one plus, there not actualy that light...........rear wheel drive boxes are also a pain to mate to them.
Its an over rated engine which is only viewed highly in this country....because its deemed to be british.....and we like that sort of thing!
New bolts every time.......
-
I read in Car Mechanics that Land Rover have developed a new head gasket for the K series (as used in Freelander) and it's supposed to be a lot stronger than the previous version, it hasn't been in use long enough though to prove that it is any better.
-
Zetec - now that is an interesting subject covering a lot of engineering designs
1.25 1.4 and 1.7 are Yamaha designed lumps (as was Toyota 1600 as fitted to MR2 ect)
1.6 1.8 2.0 are fix or repair daily designs the early 1.6 is horrific.
They suffer from valve seat recession unless fitted woth new heads or flush lube used.
The old 1.6 sounds like a Diesel and is over long stroke, and generated less power than quite a few similar sized push rod lumps! It was only fitted the the Escraps (the abbysmal version (c) Top Gear)
The 1.8 is OK in 130 guise and is the one chosen for kit cars.
Basically none of the Ford designed engines is anywhere as good as an X20XEV let alone the 150bhp Vauxhall predecessor.
Now why are kit cars not suggesting Omega 2.0 engines and boxes?
-
Now if you want a Ford engine you have a few good choices
XFlow good bog standard push rodder, not easy to change cams and followers but not a bad design, personally I don't like the valve clearance adjustment.
Pinto - good for kit car provided top end lubrication is OK
Cosworth engine based on Pinto - their pick of crop - silly power available.
Ford V6s
Cologne - poor exhaust port design.
Essex - better but prone to warping heads and HGF.
-
Now with mass produced V6s there are quite a few lemons.
The PRV V6 is generally weak and prone to various failures, HGFs and injection systems going wrong.
Decent mass produced is between the Ford (and Jaguar) Duratec and the GM Ecotec, but the Ford is more popular with small manufacturers such as Nobel.
Alfa V6 (eg 75) is quite good as well.
Come to think of it how many reliable, easy to work on, smooth, good performance and good reliability engines are there?
-
I read in Car Mechanics that Land Rover have developed a new head gasket for the K series (as used in Freelander) and it's supposed to be a lot stronger than the previous version, it hasn't been in use long enough though to prove that it is any better.
Yes they were fitted to any post 2001 k series engine :y
-
I read in Car Mechanics that Land Rover have developed a new head gasket for the K series (as used in Freelander) and it's supposed to be a lot stronger than the previous version, it hasn't been in use long enough though to prove that it is any better.
Yes they were fitted to any post 2001 k series engine :y
Including Rover?
-
would expect so :-/....Freelander 1.8`s yes and i believe the later MG ZR`s ( Rover 200- 25 derivative)
Will ask around for 100% answer.
-
Yep the reason the Vx 2.0l engine was so if i remember was becasue it was a "square engine" both stroke and bore were the same. Good for revs and power.
Did it first come out in the Mk2 astra? can't remember
The little yam designed Zetec's never had a red line on rev counter for many years as the engine design would rev well beyond limits of injection sytem set up for road use you know economy torque etc...... Bit prone to water pumps getting noisy squeeky when hot and big allen bolts in spark plug valley leaking causing misfires and the good old DIS failing.
Red antifreeze is supposed to better anti corrosion properties, so i would carry on using this TheBoy :y
-
Yeah, had the 2.0l 8v in my Mk2 Astra GTE. Reasonble engine, torquey. Shame the chassis couldn't handle a lawnmower engine....
-
Yep the reason the Vx 2.0l engine was so if i remember was becasue it was a "square engine" both stroke and bore were the same. Good for revs and power.
Did it first come out in the Mk2 astra? can't remember
The little yam designed Zetec's never had a red line on rev counter for many years as the engine design would rev well beyond limits of injection sytem set up for road use you know economy torque etc...... Bit prone to water pumps getting noisy squeeky when hot and big allen bolts in spark plug valley leaking causing misfires and the good old DIS failing.
Red antifreeze is supposed to better anti corrosion properties, so i would carry on using this TheBoy :y
Ashtray for a while then blobby Cavalier then Callibra. But never unfortunately Carlton
-
Yeah, had the 2.0l 8v in my Mk2 Astra GTE. Reasonble engine, torquey. Shame the chassis couldn't handle a lawnmower engine....
I delivered a GTE 8v once and to be honest it was dangerous - it squirmed all over the road, not safe at all.
Same engine in Carlton was slightly underpowered.
-
I drove many a red top Mk2 Astra, I liked them, great rally style handling thanks to the oodles of torque.....157Bhp in the non cat cars which dropped to 150 with a cat fitted, easy to tune to big numbers (seen one at 280Bhp normaly aspirated!).
One day I will have a V8 kit car...one day!
-
I drove many a red top Mk2 Astra, I liked them, great rally style handling thanks to the oodles of torque.....157Bhp in the non cat cars which dropped to 150 with a cat fitted, easy to tune to big numbers (seen one at 280Bhp normaly aspirated!).
One day I will have a V8 kit car...one day!
I have just had more experience with RWD and definately prefer it. The use I put a car to it is useful as well.
BTW I had a Audi TiT on a roundabout tonight!!!!
-
when are you doing this Jamie, presume you will document it all via a digi cam for us to view?
OOOOH I do feel excited about the thought of a K series failure ;D ive missed them
-
We are doing it sometime around 17/18/19 Jan, can't remember which! ;D
-
We are doing it sometime around 17/18/19 Jan, can't remember which! ;D
As it happens, due to the usual monumental opps up by the project managers, i can make any of those days now James...
-
Well... it looks like I'm going to spend the 17th (straight after a 12 hour nightshift!) re-assembling the odds and sods on this Corsa, so we'll probably have to stick to the 18/19th if that's ok! ;D
I can't see it taking any more than 2 days to do.. the only pain is that it gets dark so early, but we should still be fine, especially if we can get a good enough light rigged up...
-
Well... it looks like I'm going to spend the 17th (straight after a 12 hour nightshift!) re-assembling the odds and sods on this Corsa, so we'll probably have to stick to the 18/19th if that's ok! ;D
I can't see it taking any more than 2 days to do.. the only pain is that it gets dark so early, but we should still be fine, especially if we can get a good enough light rigged up...
I have plenty of lead lamps etc, esp if I repair the one I smashed over Tunnie....
-
excellent...
if all goes well we may even do it in a day, if we make an early start....
-
excellent...
if all goes well we may even do it in a day, if we make an early start....
Well I'll be here to start at any time ;)
Obviously, if you want to stay over to get early start, that ain't no problem either.
-
That sounds like a perfect Idea actually...
It means we can make a start as soon as it's light, and maybe go to the pub for one or six [smiley=beer.gif]
;D