Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Bacon Butty Man on 25 January 2009, 12:30:24
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thought i would put my other hdd in my laptop the other day after downloading widows 7 and load it on to try it, the down load available is the equivelent to the vista ultimate (which i hated) its the top dog of os, i must say the eas of use and intergration of all progs is easy, you get the full version and have to register it, but it expires on aug 1st, any one else tried it, i am using it now, its good, not met any gliches yet but i suppose thats to come. lol, good job i still got my xp on the other hdd lol 8-)
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No full screen DOS mode - useless for older games and some applications
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apart from it not liking the drivers for my webcam its not bad.
Its nice to see the full 4Gb of memory working that I have in my PC rather than the 3Gb on XP :y
It looks like it will be what Vista should have been
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thought i would put my other hdd in my laptop the other day after downloading widows 7 and load it on to try it, the down load available is the equivelent to the vista ultimate (which i hated) its the top dog of os, i must say the eas of use and intergration of all progs is easy, you get the full version and have to register it, but it expires on aug 1st, any one else tried it, i am using it now, its good, not met any gliches yet but i suppose thats to come. lol, good job i still got my xp on the other hdd lol 8-)
I think the debate on (the current beta of) Windows 7 was done to death about 2 weeks ago...
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No full screen DOS mode - useless for older games and some applications
Not tried in Win7, but as Vista is similar, I guess its same - its possible, bit of tweaking iirc, inc disabling Aero. Been ages since I've had to do it, I'd need to look it up.
Obviously, its not DOS, its simply a full screen command prompt that sits on top of Windows.
However, in this day and age, we certainly should not still be running console based apps that need to go full screen, this is 2009 FFS.
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I still have working dos applications (some doctors using them) written in Turbo Pascal from year 1989 ;D
only they changed the machine.. ;D
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No full screen DOS mode - useless for older games and some applications
Not tried in Win7, but as Vista is similar, I guess its same - its possible, bit of tweaking iirc, inc disabling Aero. Been ages since I've had to do it, I'd need to look it up.
Obviously, its not DOS, its simply a full screen command prompt that sits on top of Windows.
However, in this day and age, we certainly should not still be running console based apps that need to go full screen, this is 2009 FFS.
XP could manage it so could 2000, so why break it?
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I still have working dos applications (some doctors using them) written in Turbo Pascal from year 1989 ;D
only they changed the machine.. ;D
Thought all Turbo Pascal apps (old dos based ones) had an overflow issue on fast (over a few hundred Mhz) machines?
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No full screen DOS mode - useless for older games and some applications
Not tried in Win7, but as Vista is similar, I guess its same - its possible, bit of tweaking iirc, inc disabling Aero. Been ages since I've had to do it, I'd need to look it up.
Obviously, its not DOS, its simply a full screen command prompt that sits on top of Windows.
However, in this day and age, we certainly should not still be running console based apps that need to go full screen, this is 2009 FFS.
XP could manage it so could 2000, so why break it?
Backward compatibility if 15-20yr old apps is unimportant.
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I still have working dos applications (some doctors using them) written in Turbo Pascal from year 1989 ;D
only they changed the machine.. ;D
Thought all Turbo Pascal apps (old dos based ones) had an overflow issue on fast (over a few hundred Mhz) machines?
nope..still working..I have visited one of them few months ago..and he was still using :)
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I still have working dos applications (some doctors using them) written in Turbo Pascal from year 1989 ;D
only they changed the machine.. ;D
Thought all Turbo Pascal apps (old dos based ones) had an overflow issue on fast (over a few hundred Mhz) machines?
nope..still working..I have visited one of them few months ago..and he was still using :)
I know it affected up to TP6, as I threw my TP out because of it. One of the libraries it drags into the exe does some kind of timing loop, which overflows on fast PCs...
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I still have working dos applications (some doctors using them) written in Turbo Pascal from year 1989 ;D
only they changed the machine.. ;D
Thought all Turbo Pascal apps (old dos based ones) had an overflow issue on fast (over a few hundred Mhz) machines?
nope..still working..I have visited one of them few months ago..and he was still using :)
I know it affected up to TP6, as I threw my TP out because of it. One of the libraries it drags into the exe does some kind of timing loop, which overflows on fast PCs...
For a pc running turbo pascal application I think it will never be necessary to be fast.. :-/
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I still have working dos applications (some doctors using them) written in Turbo Pascal from year 1989 ;D
only they changed the machine.. ;D
Thought all Turbo Pascal apps (old dos based ones) had an overflow issue on fast (over a few hundred Mhz) machines?
nope..still working..I have visited one of them few months ago..and he was still using :)
I know it affected up to TP6, as I threw my TP out because of it. One of the libraries it drags into the exe does some kind of timing loop, which overflows on fast PCs...
For a pc running turbo pascal application I think it will never be necessary to be fast.. :-/
TP problem on 'fast' machines
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~bds2/ltsn/tpbug.htm
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I still have working dos applications (some doctors using them) written in Turbo Pascal from year 1989 ;D
only they changed the machine.. ;D
Thought all Turbo Pascal apps (old dos based ones) had an overflow issue on fast (over a few hundred Mhz) machines?
nope..still working..I have visited one of them few months ago..and he was still using :)
I know it affected up to TP6, as I threw my TP out because of it. One of the libraries it drags into the exe does some kind of timing loop, which overflows on fast PCs...
For a pc running turbo pascal application I think it will never be necessary to be fast.. :-/
TP problem on 'fast' machines
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~bds2/ltsn/tpbug.htm
interesting.. :-?
means he and others are still using old machines.. ;D
I need to warn them.. :y
And they may need a new program ;D hearing sound of money
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http://www.brain.uni-freiburg.de/~klaus/pascal/runerr200/download.html
some patches here..
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Yeah, know about the patches, but should we still be using such old software?
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Yeah, know about the patches, but should we still be using such old software?
until somebody pay the bills for the time and effort spent for a replacement project.. :-/
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No full screen DOS mode - useless for older games and some applications
Not tried in Win7, but as Vista is similar, I guess its same - its possible, bit of tweaking iirc, inc disabling Aero. Been ages since I've had to do it, I'd need to look it up.
Obviously, its not DOS, its simply a full screen command prompt that sits on top of Windows.
However, in this day and age, we certainly should not still be running console based apps that need to go full screen, this is 2009 FFS.
XP could manage it so could 2000, so why break it?
Backward compatibility if 15-20yr old apps is unimportant.
I'd say backwards compatability is actually pretty important.
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Yeah, know about the patches, but should we still be using such old software?
Why shouldn't they?
If it works and does as required
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actually its not a rule but large companies and banks mostly using
old software as it takes many years to become a stable and bug free
software..
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actually its not a rule but large companies and banks mostly using
old software as it takes many years to become a stable and bug free
software..
It takes about 5 years to develop a system - our last system took 10 years to fully do!
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actually its not a rule but large companies and banks mostly using
old software as it takes many years to become a stable and bug free
software..
It takes about 5 years to develop a system - our last system took 10 years to fully do!
As expected ..Development and testing and other phases are expensive also..
and add training costs..
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how have you found driver support - will vista drivers install?
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No full screen DOS mode - useless for older games and some applications
Not tried in Win7, but as Vista is similar, I guess its same - its possible, bit of tweaking iirc, inc disabling Aero. Been ages since I've had to do it, I'd need to look it up.
Obviously, its not DOS, its simply a full screen command prompt that sits on top of Windows.
However, in this day and age, we certainly should not still be running console based apps that need to go full screen, this is 2009 FFS.
XP could manage it so could 2000, so why break it?
Backward compatibility if 15-20yr old apps is unimportant.
I'd say backwards compatability is actually pretty important.
To a point I agree. But not back that far.
The languages/programming systems these 20yr old apps are using are no longer supported, haven't been for years. This is one area where Microsoft are one of the most generous, offering 10yrs of support for a product from release. If the programming systems aren't supported, how on earth can a developer truely provide support. Simple answer, you can't. And then there is the sticky issue of security problems...
I am racking my brains trying to think of DOS based apps (not Windows Console based apps), and I'm struggling. I know there is a common one used by Chinese Restuarants. A few years ago, a lot of EPoS stuff was DOS based, but these are all without fail Win32 apps now.
I applaud MS for having the balls to remove support for stuff - I know they got a lot of flack over NT4's demise - but at least they don't do what a lot of other companies do, not mentioning Borland (good ridance) - claiming to support a version, but when you call them, the only answer is you need to upgrade!
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actually its not a rule but large companies and banks mostly using
old software as it takes many years to become a stable and bug free
software..
It takes about 5 years to develop a system - our last system took 10 years to fully do!
Thats probably too long a lifecycle for PC based apps in this industry, esp if you are targetting non government customers.
Even so, 10yrs ago, you should have been targetting NT4/W2K as your target OS - MS-DOS was already dead in the water by then. Its like if you started developing a major new version (as opposed to refining old version), you would be targeting Vista/Win7 now, not W2K which is dropping out of support very soon, or XP, which is due to drop out of support in 2 years.
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how have you found driver support - will vista drivers install?
Not come across anything that hasn't worked yet. Things like printers, I've used Vista Drivers.
Saying that, nothing special about my desktop, and virtually all the currently installed drivers for system itself are from the Win7 DVD.
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We have test run our latest software on Windows 7 and it does work, however NONE of our customers have shown ANY interest in Vista at all.
As to ther PCs
I'd guess about 75% XP, 10% 2000, 15% 98, and there is resistance to XP from some of our customers hardware support companies.
A lot of our customers like the DOS package and do not want to move to our Windows package, and we still have about 10% of the system to finish converting.
But then it is a case of do we convert a rarely used screen or develope a module loads of users are crying out for?
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To a point I agree. But not back that far.
The languages/programming systems these 20yr old apps are using are no longer supported, haven't been for years. This is one area where Microsoft are one of the most generous, offering 10yrs of support for a product from release. If the programming systems aren't supported, how on earth can a developer truely provide support. Simple answer, you can't. And then there is the sticky issue of security problems...
I am racking my brains trying to think of DOS based apps (not Windows Console based apps), and I'm struggling. I know there is a common one used by Chinese Restuarants. A few years ago, a lot of EPoS stuff was DOS based, but these are all without fail Win32 apps now.
I applaud MS for having the balls to remove support for stuff - I know they got a lot of flack over NT4's demise - but at least they don't do what a lot of other companies do, not mentioning Borland (good ridance) - claiming to support a version, but when you call them, the only answer is you need to upgrade!
The above is true for mainstream applications but at the fringes things move a bit slower.
We recently had to support some customers using an old DOS based platform for testing GSM base stations. The box is totally obsolete but there is nothing else on the market that will do the testing they require. It's based on a DOS PC but there are no issues with software support. It doesn't connect to anything so security is a non-issue. It's unlikely that we'll find a bug in DOS or the development environment (Borland C++ - Sorry :-[) that will be a show-stopper at this stage - so manufacturer support for those is not an issue. It's no problem to support (a breath of fresh air compared to Windows based stuff, in some respects).
The problem is hardware support - which reminds me - anyone know of a source of 486 Motherboards? :-X
In most respects Windows (currently 2K) was a monumentally bad choice for the successor to that box IMHO. If the users can get it into the building under the radar of the IT police it's fine, but as soon as someone figures out it's a PC internally and starts altering security policies, installing antivirus software, etc. the problems start...
A substantial amount of development effort does into continually migrating it from one version of Dev Studio to the next too. That disappears into the noise for a huge volume app with lots of manpower being poured into it generally, but for something a little more specialised it's a real pain.
Had it been based on something the end user barely recognises as a computer I suspect it'd have been much easier.
Kevin
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We have test run our latest software on Windows 7 and it does work, however NONE of our customers have shown ANY interest in Vista at all.
As to ther PCs
I'd guess about 75% XP, 10% 2000, 15% 98, and there is resistance to XP from some of our customers hardware support companies.
A lot of our customers like the DOS package and do not want to move to our Windows package, and we still have about 10% of the system to finish converting.
But then it is a case of do we convert a rarely used screen or develope a module loads of users are crying out for?
:o - the hardware support companies need to be sacked. 98 is no longer supported, w2k unsupported this year (or is it next). 98 should never have been used in business anyway.
When they upgrade their PCs, Vista will be more attractive, seeing as it will be free with the PC ;)
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To a point I agree. But not back that far.
The languages/programming systems these 20yr old apps are using are no longer supported, haven't been for years. This is one area where Microsoft are one of the most generous, offering 10yrs of support for a product from release. If the programming systems aren't supported, how on earth can a developer truely provide support. Simple answer, you can't. And then there is the sticky issue of security problems...
I am racking my brains trying to think of DOS based apps (not Windows Console based apps), and I'm struggling. I know there is a common one used by Chinese Restuarants. A few years ago, a lot of EPoS stuff was DOS based, but these are all without fail Win32 apps now.
I applaud MS for having the balls to remove support for stuff - I know they got a lot of flack over NT4's demise - but at least they don't do what a lot of other companies do, not mentioning Borland (good ridance) - claiming to support a version, but when you call them, the only answer is you need to upgrade!
The above is true for mainstream applications but at the fringes things move a bit slower.
We recently had to support some customers using an old DOS based platform for testing GSM base stations. The box is totally obsolete but there is nothing else on the market that will do the testing they require. It's based on a DOS PC but there are no issues with software support. It doesn't connect to anything so security is a non-issue. It's unlikely that we'll find a bug in DOS or the development environment (Borland C++ - Sorry :-[) that will be a show-stopper at this stage - so manufacturer support for those is not an issue. It's no problem to support (a breath of fresh air compared to Windows based stuff, in some respects).
The problem is hardware support - which reminds me - anyone know of a source of 486 Motherboards? :-X
In most respects Windows (currently 2K) was a monumentally bad choice for the successor to that box IMHO. If the users can get it into the building under the radar of the IT police it's fine, but as soon as someone figures out it's a PC internally and starts altering security policies, installing antivirus software, etc. the problems start...
A substantial amount of development effort does into continually migrating it from one version of Dev Studio to the next too. That disappears into the noise for a huge volume app with lots of manpower being poured into it generally, but for something a little more specialised it's a real pain.
Had it been based on something the end user barely recognises as a computer I suspect it'd have been much easier.
Kevin
I know of DOS boxes that are doing time critical I/O controlling machinery, though even these are sucomming to non DOS (Unix in this case) boxes...
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We have test run our latest software on Windows 7 and it does work, however NONE of our customers have shown ANY interest in Vista at all.
As to ther PCs
I'd guess about 75% XP, 10% 2000, 15% 98, and there is resistance to XP from some of our customers hardware support companies.
A lot of our customers like the DOS package and do not want to move to our Windows package, and we still have about 10% of the system to finish converting.
But then it is a case of do we convert a rarely used screen or develope a module loads of users are crying out for?
agreed..non of the customers (mostly commercial) are willing to pay license fees for new operating systems or new applications..their main idea is "if the old one is working keep it".. So let the programmers stay hungry >:(
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From a pricing and roll-out point of view, why don't Microsoft have just one version of the OS (such as ultimate) and price it reasonably and users from basic to enterprise can install the specific area's they need?
Apple's OS X does just that, there is only one apart from the server edition. All for £83 for a single user licence.
I never got the whole 'flavours' thing, as I'd have preferred to just have everything that ultimate offers, and then make my own choices on how to configure.
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From a pricing and roll-out point of view, why don't Microsoft have just one version of the OS (such as ultimate) and price it reasonably and users from basic to enterprise can install the specific area's they need?
Apple's OS X does just that, there is only one apart from the server edition. All for £83 for a single user licence.
I never got the whole 'flavours' thing, as I'd have preferred to just have everything that ultimate offers, and then make my own choices on how to configure.
because it would make it too expensive for most users - most home users aren't going to want to pay more for their Windows to use features they'll never need.
Also, remember, the business versions include additional licences to connect to Windows Servers, hence part of the increased cost.
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We currently see quite a push for Vista support for our PC based apps.....and Linux as well!
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We currently see quite a push for Vista support for our PC based apps.....and Linux as well!
Are your apps monitoring type apps - seems to be a few of these going on to Unix (though tend to be proper Unix rather than Linux ime)? Or are they desktop apps?
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From a pricing and roll-out point of view, why don't Microsoft have just one version of the OS (such as ultimate) and price it reasonably and users from basic to enterprise can install the specific area's they need?
Apple's OS X does just that, there is only one apart from the server edition. All for £83 for a single user licence.
I never got the whole 'flavours' thing, as I'd have preferred to just have everything that ultimate offers, and then make my own choices on how to configure.
because it would make it too expensive for most users - most home users aren't going to want to pay more for their Windows to use features they'll never need.
Also, remember, the business versions include additional licences to connect to Windows Servers, hence part of the increased cost.
Buy OS X does that anyway.. and you cant buy home premium or business Vista for £83 all in. - windows basic 120 odd - windows home premium 140 odd. RRP.
OS X Ultimate everythng 83 quid. Oh and it includes all the tools for interfacing with servers.
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From a pricing and roll-out point of view, why don't Microsoft have just one version of the OS (such as ultimate) and price it reasonably and users from basic to enterprise can install the specific area's they need?
Apple's OS X does just that, there is only one apart from the server edition. All for £83 for a single user licence.
I never got the whole 'flavours' thing, as I'd have preferred to just have everything that ultimate offers, and then make my own choices on how to configure.
because it would make it too expensive for most users - most home users aren't going to want to pay more for their Windows to use features they'll never need.
Also, remember, the business versions include additional licences to connect to Windows Servers, hence part of the increased cost.
Buy OS X does that anyway.. and you cant buy home premium or business Vista for £83 all in. - windows basic 120 odd - windows home premium 140 odd. RRP.
OS X Ultimate everythng 83 quid. Oh and it includes all the tools for interfacing with servers.
Vista Basic has tools to connect to servers. It lacks, like OSX, the advanced capabilities of Active Directory (Unix based systems don't really have anything similar - NIS is rubbish, Novell's solution costs big bucks)
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that may be so... but it's still £83 for everything as opposed to nearly 300
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that may be so... but it's still £83 for everything as opposed to nearly 300
But you could equally argue that its £50 (for Home Basic) for everything that OSX offers ;)
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that may be so... but it's still £83 for everything as opposed to nearly 300
But you could equally argue that its £50 (for Home Basic) for everything that OSX offers ;)
er... no it doesn't. If you're going to go down that road, then ultimate offers everything that OS X offers. If we're going to get really picky, then even factor in iLife, for another 40 quid, still works out cheaper than ultimate.
Ultimate is OS X's parallel not home basic.
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that may be so... but it's still £83 for everything as opposed to nearly 300
But you could equally argue that its £50 (for Home Basic) for everything that OSX offers ;)
er... no it doesn't. If you're going to go down that road, then ultimate offers everything that OS X offers. If we're going to get really picky, then even factor in iLife, for another 40 quid, still works out cheaper than ultimate.
Ultimate is OS X's parallel not home basic.
We'll agree to disagree on that then, as OSX offers nothing related to AD. Ever wondered why corporates aren't snapping up OSX? Manageability ;). The fact that Vista Business will be so much cheaper than OSX is an added bonus, but not primary importance. OSX clients would also need CALs to access all those corporate file and print servers, not to mention those Exchange servers. Vista Business includes the Windows CAL.
If the home/hobby arena, OSX is competing against Vista Home versions, based on the functionality required. Unless you want Media Center (still the best PC based interface overall), or need to run Aero (why?), then Home Basic fits the bill ;)
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I'm certainly not knocking OSX - its the best Apple OS by a mile, and certainly has a following in some niche areas.
Unfortunately, a little bit to quirky still for the likes of Joe Public (ie, people like my mum), and certainly hopeless in corporate environment.
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yes, but it's way better than home basic... go on .... say it... ;D
as for what do you need aero for, well that's a consumer thing - it's eye candy, and todays consumers are driven by eye candy.
You're a programmer, your mind works in logic, functionality and necessity - of which there's nothing wrong, but the consumer is driven by a visual and tactile need.
However iphone is restricted and limited, it works on those levels, addressing the needs of 99% of what people require, rather than what then need or funtionality to do.
I run a winmo and I can see it's potential and power, but my missus isn't a techie, she has no interest in technology past will it do what I want and will it look nice.
I phone was confortable to her within 2 minutes, the winmo I bought her is on fleabay now unused after trying to get into it for three days.
Also, consumers like having lots of stuff going on, which is why in the same breath they can't understand why their computers are slow... try as you might to tell them that the virtual cat on their desktop is a resource hungry fiend, and the six month internet cache and all those startup items could all do with being junked.
It's the way they are.
As it is, i'm looking forward to installing both Vista and 7, mainly beacuse i'd like to offer my feedback from a prosumer point of view.
Also, here's one for you... why does windows have to give a drive a letter? why can't it be like the Mac where it just mounts on the desktop and you just drag it to the bin or click to eject?
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yes, but it's way better than home basic... go on .... say it... ;D
Its want you want from your computer - some (misguided) people say that Linux is better than everything....
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The teachers use Apple laptops at my daughters school - quite a few have XP Pro on them!
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Its want you want from your computer - some (misguided) people say that Linux is better than everything....
Ok. I do agree with you on that, but those guys still have 16bit platforms and listen to prog-rock ;D
Tried it, but far too much dicking around with code. I like the multiple desktops though.
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Last Apple PC I haev used was an Apple 2
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so what happens when the BETA expires in August?
Do microsoft release a production prototype as it were, or do they just cut you off till commercial release?
I'm interested to know because I really like it, and i'm loathed to go back to Vista or XP. I'd be more than happy to keep updating till commercial release and then buy the thing.
Also, historically, do they offer any incentives for beta testers on the commercial release as a thankyou or is it a case of thanks for the input - now stand in the que like everyone else?
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The above is true for mainstream applications but at the fringes things move a bit slower.
We recently had to support some customers using an old DOS based platform for testing GSM base stations. The box is totally obsolete but there is nothing else on the market that will do the testing they require. It's based on a DOS PC but there are no issues with software support. It doesn't connect to anything so security is a non-issue. It's unlikely that we'll find a bug in DOS or the development environment (Borland C++ - Sorry :-[) that will be a show-stopper at this stage - so manufacturer support for those is not an issue. It's no problem to support (a breath of fresh air compared to Windows based stuff, in some respects).
The problem is hardware support - which reminds me - anyone know of a source of 486 Motherboards? :-X
In most respects Windows (currently 2K) was a monumentally bad choice for the successor to that box IMHO. If the users can get it into the building under the radar of the IT police it's fine, but as soon as someone figures out it's a PC internally and starts altering security policies, installing antivirus software, etc. the problems start...
A substantial amount of development effort does into continually migrating it from one version of Dev Studio to the next too. That disappears into the noise for a huge volume app with lots of manpower being poured into it generally, but for something a little more specialised it's a real pain.
Had it been based on something the end user barely recognises as a computer I suspect it'd have been much easier.
Kevin
Sure I've still got a good 486 mobo fitted with 486DX4 (100) cpu somewhere.
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put Windows 7 on an old Dell C600 kicking around, seams to work well on it. Picked up the wireless pcmcia card no problems. Seams to be much lighter than Vista.
It seams to run Win 7 on that 1.2ghz laptop better than XP! Vista would have never run on it.
So it looks like a step in the right direction.
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so what happens when the BETA expires in August?
Do microsoft release a production prototype as it were, or do they just cut you off till commercial release?
I'm interested to know because I really like it, and i'm loathed to go back to Vista or XP. I'd be more than happy to keep updating till commercial release and then buy the thing.
Also, historically, do they offer any incentives for beta testers on the commercial release as a thankyou or is it a case of thanks for the input - now stand in the que like everyone else?
There may be another beta (unlikely according to my sources) and a RC - which traditionally has always been free to try as well.
Be aware, when RTM comes out, very often you have to rebuild