Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Markjay on 16 January 2007, 23:11:55
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Friends of ours just bought a brand new top-of-the-range Toyota Prius. The car is full of computers and technology, and not just for controlling the engine(s) and drive train – the car actually parks itself in reverse… not to mention other clever items such as rear-view camera.
They paid for it in excess of £20k, and bought it because it is ‘green’. Well, the point is that it isn’t, actually.
Yes it may have lower emissions. But – and this is a big but – it is far too sophisticated to survive for very long. With all these complex technology it is definitely not DIY, and I doubt if an independent garage would touch this hybrid car with a barge pole – I understand that Toyota needed to provide specialised training to their dealer network mechanics.
And with the main Toyota dealer in north London charging £95 per hour (which is one reason why I don’t take my other-half’s old Previa there anymore), which future owner will pay a four-figure bill to have it fixed it when it goes wrong in 5 or 10 years time?
The coup-de-grace is the battery packs. Apparently these need to be replaced every 5 years or so, and the cost they were quoted was ‘between £2,000 and £4,000’. I guarantee you that no Prius will survive into a second battery pack replacement – it might get its battery packs replaced once at 5 years, but when the car is 10 years old no-one will pay this much to keep it on the road.
I may of course be totally wrong, and the Prius will prove so popular that there will be a huge supply of pattern parts and cheap after-market battery packs (assuming Toyota forgot to patent them – unlikely in the first place), and lots of back-street garages staffed by helpful ex-Toyota mechanics will fix them on the cheap. But somehow I just don’t see it…
No, Prius cars will not survive very long… they will be off the road much sooner than your run-of-the-mill Ford Escort or Vauxhall Cavalier, which in contrast are simple cars to maintain and cheap to run.
The only bit of good news is that these cars will probably not go into landfills, instead they will be disposed of by the manufacturer in an ‘environmentally friendly way’ (in line with new European directive). Still, not all parts can be recycled, and at any rate any car off the road means another one being manufactured at a huge cost to the environment.
Instead of giving us new cars that pollute less but need to be replaced with new ones, help us keep our existing cars going… don’t make us scrap them and buy new ones, make them last longer. The amount of pollution created by the manufacturing process of a new car is sometimes difficult to appreciate. The ores need to be mined, then transported to the factories, then the metal need to be processed… not to mention the amount of rubber and plastics that go into a new car, all of which rely on chemical processes involving some very dangerous substances.
For me, an environmentally-friendly car is one that you can run for 20 years and then sell on, not one that smokes a bit less but need to be scrapped after less than half that time.
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My old boss bought one last year - swapped it from a Lexus GS300 :o
I found him skulking off to the far corner of the car park after a meeting - ugly, bland car with no cred :(
Can't see him keeping it to the first change of batteries let alone the second.
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My old boss bought one last year - swapped it from a Lexus GS300 :o
I found him skulking off to the far corner of the car park after a meeting - ugly, bland car with no cred :(
Can't see him keeping it to the first change of batteries let alone the second.
They are very common now around London due to the fact that they are exempt from Congestion Charge. But I still think it makes no sense because the Prius costs around £5k more than a comparable ‘standard’, so unless you drive into London every day (which very few people do anyway because of the cost of parking…) and the charge is upped to £25, it will take several years to recoup the extra cost…
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and another thing they are not green!!!
They get less mpg than a diesel, pointless cars IMO. Any money saved on petrol is lost in dealer services.
Not well built either...
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and another thing they are not green!!!
They get less mpg than a diesel, pointless cars IMO. Any money saved on petrol is lost in dealer services.
Not well built either...
Shouldn't they all be green - cos you don't buy them for style anyway so why not make a statement ;)
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You're spot on in your criticism of these ridiculous vehicles. The problem is that the people who buy them (no disrespect to your friends) seem to get sucked in by the hype from the Save the Planet brigade. I'm all for saving resources and recycyling, but cannot abide this drivel about hybrid vehicles being eco-friendly. They're not, for all the reasons you gave.
As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.
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You're spot on in your criticism of these ridiculous vehicles. The problem is that the people who buy them (no disrespect to your friends) seem to get sucked in by the hype from the Save the Planet brigade. I'm all for saving resources and recycyling, but cannot abide this drivel about hybrid vehicles being eco-friendly. They're not, for all the reasons you gave.
As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.
They'll be banning smoking in public places next...... ::)
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Sounds like a rather large scale con :o
Clarkson tested the Prius, and found it to have less MPG than an average diesel. So its an even bigger con.
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As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.
Not true I'm afraid :-
The nuclear stations are not flexible. They are best suited to base loading at their maximum rating, which is what they do.
Gas stations are not particularly flexible when on load, they are also designed to mainly operate within a narrow load profile. They can however, two shift very easily. Two shifting basically means coming off load through the night and back on through the day. They can be shutdown and started up fairly quickly.
Coal (and oil) stations are much more flexible and are able to provide good frequency response, continually varying their output to meet the requirements of the grid and to help keep the grid at 50Hz. These stations also two shift very successfully and do this based on system prices / demand.
Electricity is not easily stored, which is why there is the national grid and all these stations feeding it. As demand rises of falls, outputs from generating units connected to the grid and providing frequency response rapidly alter their output to ensure that the system frequency remains steady.
No electricity is 'earthed' or wasted.
As for renewables, yes they have their part to play in a balanced portfolio of generation, but they are by no means the answer to our electricity requirements in the near future (50+ years).
The save the planet brigade have very honourable intentions but need to grasp a much better understanding of the issues before invading large coal fired power stations trying to close them down. Demand is only going to go up.
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that would suggest it would make sense to use electric cars that can charge up at night, not these hybrid flops. Here's one that might look OK in the Company carpark http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/04/technology/business2_wrightspeed/ But would it keep up with Tunnie's Sennator?. :)
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In Scotland they cab store power in pumped hydro electric stations
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As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.
Not true I'm afraid :-
The nuclear stations are not flexible. They are best suited to base loading at their maximum rating, which is what they do.
Gas stations are not particularly flexible when on load, they are also designed to mainly operate within a narrow load profile. They can however, two shift very easily. Two shifting basically means coming off load through the night and back on through the day. They can be shutdown and started up fairly quickly.
Coal (and oil) stations are much more flexible and are able to provide good frequency response, continually varying their output to meet the requirements of the grid and to help keep the grid at 50Hz. These stations also two shift very successfully and do this based on system prices / demand.
Electricity is not easily stored, which is why there is the national grid and all these stations feeding it. As demand rises of falls, outputs from generating units connected to the grid and providing frequency response rapidly alter their output to ensure that the system frequency remains steady.
No electricity is 'earthed' or wasted.
As for renewables, yes they have their part to play in a balanced portfolio of generation, but they are by no means the answer to our electricity requirements in the near future (50+ years).
The save the planet brigade have very honourable intentions but need to grasp a much better understanding of the issues before invading large coal fired power stations trying to close them down. Demand is only going to go up.
You clearly have a good knowledge of this subject, which I respect.
However, I think you may be missing my point a bit. As I understand it, while coal station technology has improved greatly, they nevertheless take a long time to get up and running and are thus usually used to provide base loads. Of course, ouput these days can be managed to some extent (although I have read that it is a notoriously difficult operation for grid managers who use coal and nuclear as base providers and then try to top up when required by using gas and oil-fired supplies which are much quicker to respond). Nevertheless, whilst output may be more controllable, the energy input, certainly with regard to coal, is pretty much fixed to the target base load requirement. Thus, the amount of fossil fuel burned will remain pretty much stable 24 hours a day. By extrapolation, switching off a row of street lights will not, if the supply is from a purely base load source, have any effect on the power station emissions, which was the point I was making.
I understand that these days less energy is wasted because of the international grid, but I'd bet there may be times when overall base load supply exceeds consumption throughout Europe and it would be nigh on impossible to sell the excess. Indeed, while looking at Economy 7 (which is still be marketed, I notice) and storage heaters, I found this quote: "However, if a country's existing power distribution is such that base load supply exceeds demand during the off-peak period, then the storage heaters there are simply making use of energy that would otherwise be wasted."
However, as I said, you clearly are better versed on this subject, and I may be wrong in my assertions. Interesting thread, though! ;)
As far as the save the planet brigade having honourable intentions, I wish that were universally true. It seems that genuine environmental concerns are being used as a smokescreen for anti-capitalists and otheres with poitical motivations. This is a shame as we all need, as you rightly point out, to aim for better understanding of the real issues.
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that would suggest it would make sense to use electric cars that can charge up at night, not these hybrid flops. Here's one that might look OK in the Company carpark http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/04/technology/business2_wrightspeed/ But would it keep up with Tunnie's Sennator?. :)
Electric cars are certainly one way forward and this is the first that looks, err, well, a bit sexy for want of another adjective. (Most of the others look like a Mr Man prop!). The only problem is the battery - expensive and enviromentally costly to make - and the same to dispose of at the end of its life. Still, with the current pace of technology, I'm sure super-efficient and cleaner batteries will appear in the next half a dozen years, or so.
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You clearly have a good knowledge of this subject, which I respect.
Its what I do for a living so I have some strong opinions on the subject ;)
In Scotland they cab store power in pumped hydro electric stations
Very true, some in Wales as well. Energy stored in these facilities can be converted very quickly to electricity if required. Still require electricity to pump the water back up though ;)
Electric cars are certainly one way forward and this is the first that looks, err, well, a bit sexy for want of another adjective. (Most of the others look like a Mr Man prop!). The only problem is the battery - expensive and environmentally costly to make - and the same to dispose of at the end of its life. Still, with the current pace of technology, I'm sure super-efficient and cleaner batteries will appear in the next half a dozen years, or so.
My fundamental issue with electric vehicles, they still need charging which still requires electricity generation which still involves the use of nuclear of fossil fuels.
However, I think you may be missing my point a bit. As I understand it, while coal station technology has improved greatly, they nevertheless take a long time to get up and running and are thus usually used to provide base loads.
The newest station is Drax (coal fired) and that was built in the late eighties (twenty years ago). Most are more like fourth or fifty years old. Generators have strived to improve thermal efficiencies of their stations and some work has been carried out in this area (nothing dramatic however). The other area of focus for coal stations is in emissions and there have been dramatic improvements in this area.
Coal fired units can be brought on load within an hour which is actually very fast. Nuclear units take longer (3 days). Most coal stations provide frequency response as well as base loading. In fact, the majority of the frequency sensitive units connected to the grid are coal fired. Running regimes differ between generators, some have long term agreements in place and may well base load. Others take advantage in the fluctuations in the wholesale electricity price and largely two shift their units. The message is that coal is flexible.
Nevertheless, whilst output may be more controllable, the energy input, certainly with regard to coal, is pretty much fixed to the target base load requirement. Thus, the amount of fossil fuel burned will remain pretty much stable 24 hours a day. By extrapolation, switching off a row of street lights will not, if the supply is from a purely base load source, have any effect on the power station emissions, which was the point I was making.
Less demand means less generation, fossil, nuclear or renewable. Nuclear is used to base load and is not frequency sensitive, so in reality it would result in a reduction in generation from the coal/gas fleet.
I understand that these days less energy is wasted because of the international grid, but I'd bet there may be times when overall base load supply exceeds consumption throughout Europe and it would be nigh on impossible to sell the excess. Indeed, while looking at Economy 7 (which is still be marketed, I notice) and storage heaters, I found this quote: "However, if a country's existing power distribution is such that base load supply exceeds demand during the off-peak period, then the storage heaters there are simply making use of energy that would otherwise be wasted."
In terms of the UK, we manage the frequency of our grid, we act literally as an 'Island' and we are not influenced by the European grid.
Interesting article can be found at http://www.parliament.uk/post/pn163.pdf (its a little old but still relevant)
The majority of the European generation is in fact Nuclear. Their grid is considerably larger than ours and control of their distribution is across countries and is therefore more complex.
As for Economy 7, market forces apply. Less demand during the night time period results in a drop in wholesale electricity prices which is where the Economy 7 bit comes in. Its for this very reason that the Nuclear generators really suffered when the government introduced a different way of trading electricity some years back. The drop in wholesale prices was so dramatic that through night times and weekends, it cost the Nuclear generators more to generate it than they could sell it for, and because they are in-flexible they had to ride it out. Its why the government had to step in respect to the Nuclear generators.
Interesting thread, though! ;)
It is an interesting topic and the challenges facing this country within the next 10 to 15 years with respect to our electricity supply are not insignificant. In my view, Nuclear and clean coal technologies are the only answer.
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I upset a few people as I am pro nuclear, there is a LOT of scaremongering going on but I feel it is pretty green and clean compared to fossil fuel.
I do NOT want a Severn Barrage - the damage it would cause would be huge.
I think there is too much reliance on gas it is good for fill in but I don't think it is supply safe for base power. (We are learning new terms!!)
You see weirs on rivers - how much power could be harvested there?
Wind farms I think are more gimmicky.
What is happening with fusion research
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I'm with Martin on the pro-nuclear idea. I think the activists are shooting themselves in the foot on campaigning against it, since there are no viable alternatives apart from fossil fuels. And they hate those even more. If they had it their way, we'd be back in the stoneage. Anway... where were we... oh yes, Fusion research.
All hopes are pinned on the ITER reactor, thats being thrown together in France. Fusion energy generation has been succesfully tested already using a tokamak reactor, but it requires more energy in than what it puts out. The ITER reactor hopes to be the first ever fusion reactor to output more energy than it consumes.
Info here: http://www.iter.org/a/index_nav_4.htm
Now back to the Prius :P
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Now back to the Prius :P
They are deadly if your a pedestrian in a car park
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You clearly have a good knowledge of this subject, which I respect.
Its what I do for a living so I have some strong opinions on the subject ;)
In Scotland they cab store power in pumped hydro electric stations
Very true, some in Wales as well. Energy stored in these facilities can be converted very quickly to electricity if required. Still require electricity to pump the water back up though ;)
Electric cars are certainly one way forward and this is the first that looks, err, well, a bit sexy for want of another adjective. (Most of the others look like a Mr Man prop!). The only problem is the battery - expensive and environmentally costly to make - and the same to dispose of at the end of its life. Still, with the current pace of technology, I'm sure super-efficient and cleaner batteries will appear in the next half a dozen years, or so.
My fundamental issue with electric vehicles, they still need charging which still requires electricity generation which still involves the use of nuclear of fossil fuels.
However, I think you may be missing my point a bit. As I understand it, while coal station technology has improved greatly, they nevertheless take a long time to get up and running and are thus usually used to provide base loads.
The newest station is Drax (coal fired) and that was built in the late eighties (twenty years ago). Most are more like fourth or fifty years old. Generators have strived to improve thermal efficiencies of their stations and some work has been carried out in this area (nothing dramatic however). The other area of focus for coal stations is in emissions and there have been dramatic improvements in this area.
Coal fired units can be brought on load within an hour which is actually very fast. Nuclear units take longer (3 days). Most coal stations provide frequency response as well as base loading. In fact, the majority of the frequency sensitive units connected to the grid are coal fired. Running regimes differ between generators, some have long term agreements in place and may well base load. Others take advantage in the fluctuations in the wholesale electricity price and largely two shift their units. The message is that coal is flexible.
Nevertheless, whilst output may be more controllable, the energy input, certainly with regard to coal, is pretty much fixed to the target base load requirement. Thus, the amount of fossil fuel burned will remain pretty much stable 24 hours a day. By extrapolation, switching off a row of street lights will not, if the supply is from a purely base load source, have any effect on the power station emissions, which was the point I was making.
Less demand means less generation, fossil, nuclear or renewable. Nuclear is used to base load and is not frequency sensitive, so in reality it would result in a reduction in generation from the coal/gas fleet.
I understand that these days less energy is wasted because of the international grid, but I'd bet there may be times when overall base load supply exceeds consumption throughout Europe and it would be nigh on impossible to sell the excess. Indeed, while looking at Economy 7 (which is still be marketed, I notice) and storage heaters, I found this quote: "However, if a country's existing power distribution is such that base load supply exceeds demand during the off-peak period, then the storage heaters there are simply making use of energy that would otherwise be wasted."
In terms of the UK, we manage the frequency of our grid, we act literally as an 'Island' and we are not influenced by the European grid.
Interesting article can be found at http://www.parliament.uk/post/pn163.pdf (its a little old but still relevant)
The majority of the European generation is in fact Nuclear. Their grid is considerably larger than ours and control of their distribution is across countries and is therefore more complex.
As for Economy 7, market forces apply. Less demand during the night time period results in a drop in wholesale electricity prices which is where the Economy 7 bit comes in. Its for this very reason that the Nuclear generators really suffered when the government introduced a different way of trading electricity some years back. The drop in wholesale prices was so dramatic that through night times and weekends, it cost the Nuclear generators more to generate it than they could sell it for, and because they are in-flexible they had to ride it out. Its why the government had to step in respect to the Nuclear generators.
Interesting thread, though! ;)
It is an interesting topic and the challenges facing this country within the next 10 to 15 years with respect to our electricity supply are not insignificant. In my view, Nuclear and clean coal technologies are the only answer.
Good post, Mike. Thanks for the effort!
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Makes me hate them even more
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Good post, Mike. Thanks for the effort!
Thats OK, I like a good debate on this subject, especially with one of those greenies who hand out leaflets in town centres. The wife just walks away in embarrassment
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Good post, Mike. Thanks for the effort!
Thats OK, I like a good debate on this subject, especially with one of those greenies who hand out leaflets in town centres. The wife just walks away in embarrassment
Sounds like fun!
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Aviation is todays major contributor of pollution, so the whole theory about green cars is a con unfortunately. I read somewhere that UK people being environmental concious contribute to just 1% of the overall pollution, so you can see how smalll the car slice in that pie chart is.
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Sounds like fun!
She doesn't think so! :D
We all demand more and more electricity. Wind farms, solar, wave, energy crops all have their contribution to make. They are not he answer in the short term. Drax is 7% of the UK demand, 4000MW, the largest wind turbine is about 3MW... Do the calcs. Wave and solar are even less.
Whilst we can make every effort to contribute to the Collective (star trek fans start getting excited!), the starting point is getting America to start taking the issue seriously. Then its supporting the third / secondary world countries to understand their responsibilities and aiding in their developments.
A long way down the list its getting Mr. Joe Bloggs to drive a Toyota hybrid car around the UK, a car which isn't particularly fuel economic, contains many nasty chemicals in its batteries and which hasn’t got a very good longevity. At least they think they are reducing their carbon foot print which is what its all about.
I have a mate who has a Maserati Quattroporte and a Prius, thinking one cancels out the other :-?
Lets stop burning gas in power stations at 65% efficiency, lets burn it in domestic boilers at 98% efficiency. Lets invest in clean coal technologies (about 500 years of coal resources left) and lets invest in nuclear technologies (no greenhouse emissions at all!)
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You're spot on in your criticism of these ridiculous vehicles. The problem is that the people who buy them (no disrespect to your friends) seem to get sucked in by the hype from the Save the Planet brigade. I'm all for saving resources and recycyling, but cannot abide this drivel about hybrid vehicles being eco-friendly. They're not, for all the reasons you gave.
As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.
They'll be banning smoking in public places next...... ::)
Shirley not AA ::)
tho interesting thread.... :y
I once switched to not economy7 but a tariff that was cheaper between 7pm and 7am devised by a leccy company....i was careful and never cooked before 7pm.....and put dishwasher/washing on after 7pm......bloody bill still went up tho.....so i had it taken out and reverted back to normal meter.....
im a 'bit' green and have low energy bulbs fitted where possible....and am working on a project that will hopefully power all my floodlights outside either by windpower or solar.....mind you cost me more than the leccy bill!
i thought the power companies sold the 'not needed' leccy to europe/etc when over producing.....or am i wrong there?
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I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming :o
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I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming :o
;D
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I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming :o
;D ;D
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A fascinating subject.....
My other passion (apart from cars) is paddle steamers - I don't know if this is true, but on a TV documentary last year about marine powerplants, it quoted the following figures:
Large Petrol engines: Average 15% efficient
Large Diesel engines: Average 20% efficient
The steam engines in the paddler "Waverley": 35% efficient
And the Waverleys engines were built more than 50 years ago, and she's still going strong! Now just imagine if steam engines had another 50 years of development!!
Regards
Eddy
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[I thought the power companies sold the 'not needed' leccy to Europe/etc when over producing.....or am I wrong there?
Actually, in the UK when demand reduces, generation is taken off-line. There is never over generation. In winter, especially last winter, the UK had, at times, all of its oil fired generation on load, there was nothing left!!!, nobody realises just how desperate it got. Taking into account the cost of oil at that point, it shows just how close the UK came to brown outs. There was a program recently which told of the unstableness of gas supply. A spokeswoman for a glass manufacturer was unable to buy gas. The price was rising so quickly, no one was willing to sell her it as it would have been worth so much more at the end of the transaction.
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A fascinating subject.....
My other passion (apart from cars) is paddle steamers - I don't know if this is true, but on a TV documentary last year about marine powerplants, it quoted the following figures:
Large Petrol engines: Average 15% efficient
Large Diesel engines: Average 20% efficient
The steam engines in the paddler "Waverley": 35% efficient
And the Waverleys engines were built more than 50 years ago, and she's still going strong! Now just imagine if steam engines had another 50 years of development!!
Regards
Eddy
I know of rail traction Diesels at 50% fuel to rail - and they are British!
Mirlees & Brush
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I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming :o
;D ;D ;D
..you are not hamsters, are you? :o
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I've got a dynamo rigged up to the excersise bike, put Mrs AA to work on it, every time the lights go dim, I give her a good slapping, whoops, got to go, can here her coming :o
;D ;D ;D
..you are not hamsters, are you? :o
Now there's a thought, could buy her a wheel......
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[I thought the power companies sold the 'not needed' leccy to Europe/etc when over producing.....or am I wrong there?
Actually, in the UK when demand reduces, generation is taken off-line. There is never over generation. In winter, especially last winter, the UK had, at times, all of its oil fired generation on load, there was nothing left!!!, nobody realises just how desperate it got. Taking into account the cost of oil at that point, it shows just how close the UK came to brown outs. There was a program recently which told of the unstableness of gas supply. A spokeswoman for a glass manufacturer was unable to buy gas. The price was rising so quickly, no one was willing to sell her it as it would have been worth so much more at the end of the transaction.
Mike,
All this info about power stations and the National Grid is great. I am, and always have been, totally fascinated by the grid, how it works, how the frequency is kept at a constant 50Hz and how it keeps on going seemingly regardless of total load. I think that it is amazing and very few people have an appreciation of it (or probably even care). I always remember that huge switching plant (I think it is a switching plant) near the M6 where you can see the million volt power lines coming in and the oil filled switch gear ............ amazing stuff.
One of my wishes is to visit a power station some time and be able to see the generators humming away and view the control room. Sad, I know but still.
What I would like to know is how does the grid actually work? Why is it that Sub Stations are being removed? Do any power stations have open days? Why have some power stations been closed? Is there any on line resource that could answer these questions?
I would love to know more about how the generation is controlled and how stations are brought on line and taken off again to suit fluctuations in demand.
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The figs of 15% and 20% efficient for engines are eye opening. We need to make better use of can energy usage. For example, a lot of the energy in an engine is given off in heat. Why not plumb a slow cooker into the cooling system?. That way, when you set off to go home from work, just turn on the heat tap and your tea is cooked when you get home!. ;) OK a bit of a joke, but we used to do this to bags of chips many years ago ;D Perhaps the way is to make better use of the energy we use. Toyota have spent mega bucks developing (sorry flinging together) new (Old) technology, and the political capital they can make from it is huge. Never mind if it doesn't work very well, they stand to win big time. Public thinking about 'new is good' needs to be changed before we see sense. For example I have 3 PC's that I run, one on Ebay, one on OOF, and one on Yahoo. They are so cheap that its either use them or throw them out for scrap. However the power used is quite high, (400W each?), so if I changed over to using laptops (about 60W each) I could cut my power use considerably. And in in dear old Bradford, they are 'regenerating' lots of houses, by spending about £3500 each on stone blasting the outside and building nice walls using the same kind of expensive stone bricks, front and back. Yet a large number of these houses are single glazed, have crap heating systems and I'll bet the lofts aren't insulated. In some ( Cold!) countries Houses use engines for generating electricity, but they also use the heat to heat their homes, thus achieving better efficiency. Perhaps we should fit heat storage units in our car boots? :y
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One of the things that boffins were experimenting with on-and-off over the past 10 years or so is ceramic engines – the idea is that ceramics can stand much higher temperatures than alloys so engines could run hotter and there would be no need to cool it down (=waste heat energy). This sort of engine should in theory be more efficient and have less energy loss. Alas, like Rover’s Jet-Turbine propelled car of the fiftees, the idea hasn’t actually matured to mass production stage…
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/8/newsid_2516000/2516271.stm
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Hijacking my own thread ;D :
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6958/jet1wa9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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[I thought the power companies sold the 'not needed' leccy to Europe/etc when over producing.....or am I wrong there?
Actually, in the UK when demand reduces, generation is taken off-line. There is never over generation. In winter, especially last winter, the UK had, at times, all of its oil fired generation on load, there was nothing left!!!, nobody realises just how desperate it got. Taking into account the cost of oil at that point, it shows just how close the UK came to brown outs. There was a program recently which told of the unstableness of gas supply. A spokeswoman for a glass manufacturer was unable to buy gas. The price was rising so quickly, no one was willing to sell her it as it would have been worth so much more at the end of the transaction.
Mike,
All this info about power stations and the National Grid is great. I am, and always have been, totally fascinated by the grid, how it works, how the frequency is kept at a constant 50Hz and how it keeps on going seemingly regardless of total load. I think that it is amazing and very few people have an appreciation of it (or probably even care). I always remember that huge switching plant (I think it is a switching plant) near the M6 where you can see the million volt power lines coming in and the oil filled switch gear ............ amazing stuff.
One of my wishes is to visit a power station some time and be able to see the generators humming away and view the control room. Sad, I know but still.
What I would like to know is how does the grid actually work? Why is it that Sub Stations are being removed? Do any power stations have open days? Why have some power stations been closed? Is there any on line resource that could answer these questions?
I would love to know more about how the generation is controlled and how stations are brought on line and taken off again to suit fluctuations in demand.
I developed a sad fascination about 15 years ago when we on hols in North Wales with friends. Looking for something to do on the first day, we went to a hydro electric power station at Blaneau Festiniog (thats spelt wrong!). Absolutely fascinating. So the next day we went to the hydro electric at Snowdown (more disappointing, but the scale of it built entirely underground was amazing), and the next day to a nuclear one they were decommissioning...
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I've always had a sad fascination for wanting to see a power station. It's just big things that make LOTS of power, gives me tingles down my spine :D
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Mike,
All this info about power stations and the National Grid is great. I am, and always have been, totally fascinated by the grid, how it works, how the frequency is kept at a constant 50Hz and how it keeps on going seemingly regardless of total load. I think that it is amazing and very few people have an appreciation of it (or probably even care).
I think its amazing as well, which is a good job as its all I do.
Every alternator connected to the UK grid is spinning at a constant 3000rpm (3000/60seconds = 50 cycles/sec or Hz). The large units (steam turbines in the case of nuclear, coal and oil) are directly coupled to the alternator, therefore are also spinning at 3000rpm. The largest steam turbines in the UK are at Drax, 660 mega watts (MW). The majority of the rest are all 500MW machines.
There is a diverse range of units providing frequency response. These include the larger coal and oil units, hydro electric pump storage (very fast to come on line) or small gas turbines (most large power stations also have a number of small gas turbines used to support their sub-systems and to provide frequency response when the grid is in real trouble).
The easiest way to imagine how the grid stays at 50Hz (and without getting into electrical power and machine theory :-/), as more load is required (demand goes up, maybe everyone switching on their kettles in the ad break between big brother), all the machines connected to the grid will start to slow down (like a car going up a hill with no extra throttle). Those machines selected to frequency response see this effect in the grids frequency and their control systems take on this extra load, to bring the frequency back to 50Hz. Obviously one machine can not achieve this by its self which is why there are lots of units selected to frequency response.
This deals with the fine control of the grid frequency, more course control is achieved by a balancing mechanism where load is balanced to demand (see link at the bottom).
http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/2106CEB2-E2C0-4AC9-A8FE-940DEFCCCCEB/3273/frequency.pdf
An important thing to appreciate here is the 'momentum' of the grid. Large and sudden changes in demand (a unit trip / blast furnace starting, large fault developing somewhere on the grid or whatever), it is the momentum of these large pieces of spinning metal that enables the grid to ride through the disturbance. A large 500MW machine is about 150feet long and at the low pressure end, the turbine blades are about 10 feet in diameter (a big piece of metal spinning very quickly)
- Steam pressure at the turbine inlet (high pressure end), about 160Bar
- Steam temperature at the turbine inlet, 568degC
This is referred to as super heated steam, invisible to the human eye and would cut through you like a knife through warm butter :o:-/ Steam venting to the atmosphere at that pressure would immediately burst both ear drums. So pritty serious stuff.
I always remember that huge switching plant (I think it is a switching plant) near the M6 where you can see the million volt power lines coming in and the oil filled switch gear ............ amazing stuff.
The largest voltage on the UK grid is 415kV and is referred to as the super grid, you may be getting confused with MW but still a very large voltage. Get within 3 meters of such a voltage line (whilst touching ground) and you will fry.
One of my wishes is to visit a power station some time and be able to see the generators humming away and view the control room. Sad, I know but still.
What I would like to know is how does the grid actually work? Why is it that Sub Stations are being removed? Do any power stations have open days? Why have some power stations been closed? Is there any on line resource that could answer these questions?
There is a constant program of modernisation of the grid infrastructure. As some of the older power stations are de-commissioned, or as new gas stations com on-line, sub-station modifications have to occur, thats all.
As for why some power stations have been closed, thats a good question. Most of our nuclear fleet are coming to the end of their design life. Regulations are much stricter for the nuclear generators(thankfully) and it is pritty much written in stone that they will be de-commissioned as soon as they get to this point in their life. This in itsself is pritty worrying as it would take about 10 years from brown field site to first synchronising a nuclear unit, i.e they need to start building today.
Drax is the newest coal station and its 20 years old. The coal stations that have been closed have become un-economical for the generator to run in terms of efficiency or re-invest in. It is worth noting that most of the coal fleet have already past their original design life. My predecessors did a good job when they first designed these stations which were largely over engineered.
Nation Grid Company own and operate the grid in England and operate the grid in the UK. Their site is pritty good, you can even see current grid demand and grid frequency in real time
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/electricity/
Some power stations do have open days but with recent green invasions, they are getting a bit nervous. I could look into getting an OOF trip round Drax if anyone would be interested, can't promise though.
I would love to know more about how the generation is controlled and how stations are brought on line and taken off again to suit fluctuations in demand.
The method of balancing generation with demand is handled by the new electricity trading arrangements or NETA
http://www.bmreports.co
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Could children come?
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Yes, some regularly have school visits. I'm on site next Wed / Thirs and will make some enquiries. If it looks like a goer, I'll post in the Meetings and help days section.
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Id be up for that! Theres also a gas power station in my town.... dono if they have open days or anything though.
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I would be up for a visit!! Sounds great and thanks for your post about my post if that makes sense. Will follow those links with interest. Thanks again really appreciate it.
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Very informative post - thanks :)
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::)can you fit an induction kit to a steam engine?
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With my mechanical abilities, I couldn’t fit an induction kit into any engine :(
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From letters to Honest John (The Telegraph Motoring, Jan 20):
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Sir - Please tell Bamber Gascoigne (Jan 13) that if manufacturing CO2 is taken into account, wind-turbines are little better than gas-fired power stations. The greens say electric cars are best, then petrol/electric hybrids or diesels, but their batteries are polluting in manufacture and even worst in disposal. The best way ahead may be to use bio-fuels and lean-burn engines for transport and nuclear power (the lowest CO2 producer according to national Geographic) for electricity production. John Marshall, Lincolnshire .
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Well that laid rest to another myth – the electric car… batteries are not environmentally–friendly, and lots of them that need to be replaced every 5 years are even less so!