Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 01 March 2009, 11:53:57
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Harriet Harman MP, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, along with other posts, this morning stated on the Andrew Marr Show that even if it was ruled in a court of law that Sir Fred "The Shred" Goodwin, former head of the RBS, was entitled to his lifelong £650K a year pension, the Government was determined to ensure he would not retain it!! :o :o
She continually quoted Gordon Brown that it was "unacceptable", and his determination to ensure Sir Fred "The Shred" Goodwin could not "bank on receiving the £650K a year".
No matter what we believe about this (obscene?) "pension", is the Government right to over-rule the legal rights of Sir Goodwin who has apparently a legally binding commercial (not civil service!) contract? :-? :-?
If so, where does this end? :-? :-?
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Especially as this Government approved it in the first place, good luck to him.
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I think its Fred v The Country almost really YUP ! take some of it back for me his company money as lost billions whilst hes been at the helm feathering his nest..so he gets a minus pension ;) for me
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It would set a worrying precedent if the govt succeeded. :(
As for as I'm concerned this is a total lack of due dilligence by an incompetent government, nothing more. If they had investigated the liabilities that they would inherit before chucking a load of our cash at the problem, as would have happened with any commercial buyout, maybe they could have avoided this mess.
As it is, as usual, they assume they can make a knee jerk reaction to a little bit of bad press and in doing so cover up their own incompetence. >:(
Kevin
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Well, he did managed to achieve something that noone else would be able to - the largest loss in corporate history.
Will he swap it for a line in the Guiness Book of Records though? Guess not..
Yes, it sound scandalous, but if they tried to remove his pension then they would be in breach of contract and he'd be within his rights to sue them (and probably get more).
Not sticking up for the bloke - just if it was one rule etc...then how many more employers would try and stop pensions because a retired employee didn't do a good job in their final year?
Don't know the full story - so apologies if i got any of the above wrong..
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It would set a worrying precedent if the govt succeeded. :(
As for as I'm concerned this is a total lack of due dilligence by an incompetent government, nothing more. If they had investigated the liabilities that they would inherit before chucking a load of our cash at the problem, as would have happened with any commercial buyout, maybe they could have avoided this mess.
As it is, as usual, they assume they can make a knee jerk reaction to a little bit of bad press and in doing so cover up their own incompetence. >:(
Kevin
Quite right, Kevin. No matter how odious the amounts involved, the real question is the principle. If the Law of Contract can be retrospectively overridden for moral reasons, that would be unacceptable. How would you like it if your company turned round and told you to give back your pension because they were have financial problems?
It's the government's fault. >:(
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Harriet Harman MP, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, along with other posts, this morning stated on the Andrew Marr Show that even if it was ruled in a court of law that Sir Fred "The Shred" Goodwin, former head of the RBS, was entitled to his lifelong £650K a year pension, the Government was determined to ensure he would not retain it!! :o :o
She continually quoted Gordon Brown that it was "unacceptable", and his determination to ensure Sir Fred "The Shred" Goodwin could not "bank on receiving the £650K a year".
No matter what we believe about this (obscene?) "pension", is the Government right to over-rule the legal rights of Sir Goodwin who has apparently a legally binding commercial (not civil service!) contract? :-? :-?
If so, where does this end? :-? :-?
Under any normal circumstances Lizzie...............I would agree that we do not want or need any government meddling in these matters. but really in this case I believe that a stand should be made ...........to deter future incidents ....such as this.
Let's be clear about good old Freddie................This privileged ....inept .........greedy .......selfish .........buffoon presided over the largest corporate loss in British history.
He was paid millions of pounds for his part in destroying much of the British economy.
To add insult to injury ....................this chancer (with other peoples money)............is set to receive £13000..........each and every week of his life .....................from age FIFTY.
I do not believe it to be fair .............that every one ......................and especially people on minimum wage (cooks and cleaners etc...etc).............will have to pay higher taxes for decades to come in order to help pay back the billions of pounds that the likes of parasites like good old Freddie have lost the country. :y :y :y
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I think he managed to mislead the government on what he could & couldn't have ............You & me do that & they come after you for it no matter how small the amounts.. :-[
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It does not sit easy with me .............on what looks like retrospective government action .............over what appears to be an agreed pension payout.
But...sadly.........in this case I think that because of the magnitude of the problems caused by Fred Goodwin and other inept bankers...........I think that principle has to take a back seat on this rare occasion.
There are two ways this pensions fiasco could have been avoided
1. That the Government had got its act together more quickly and it had nipped this in the bud..............my understanding is that part of Goodwins' pension was discretionary
2. Fred Goodwin had the decency to offer not to take the pension (even if he is entitled to it legally, he is not entitled to it morally) :y :y :y :y
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Total lack of due diligence. One of the conditions of receiving governement cash should have been to change the conditions of every bank employee (except those in barclays of course) to capped bonuses and a apply a cut of a minimum of 10% across the company. That way they would appreciate the pain incurred by joe public.
There is no chance of Fred giving up his money.On the positive side think of how much tax he will pay on all that money.
Rearrange this well known phrase. HORSE DOOR STABLE CLOSE.
varche
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Total lack of due diligence. One of the conditions of receiving governement cash should have been to change the conditions of every bank employee (except those in barclays of course) to capped bonuses and a apply a cut of a minimum of 10% across the company. That way they would appreciate the pain incurred by joe public.
There is no chance of Fred giving up his money.On the positive side think of how much tax he will pay on all that money.
Rearrange this well known phrase. HORSE DOOR STABLE CLOSE.
varche
You can bet that he has the best Accountant available.................He won't pay much tax.........................the very wealthy rarely do. :-/ :y :y :y.
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I agree with you Lizzie, it is an obscene amount of money for someone who has made such a mess with so many people's lives to receive. I don't know how much I will be affected by him as I have 2 bank accounts, a loan and an investment plan with RBS, and a bank account with Nat West.
However, I don't think it is the place of the government to interfere in this matter. The pension fiasco should have been sorted out long before it came to this stage, and taking action now coukd set a dangerous precedent in the future. If the government are allowed to meddle in this case, what is to stop them stepping in in other cases, as and when it pleases them.
Much as it pains me to say it, I think we just have to swallow this, and hope that the banks don't allow it to reach this stage again in the future.
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As someone said on radio last week ,what is the difference between Fred the Shred and Nick Leeson ,both bankrupted their respective companys buy playing the markets for gain.One ends up inside doing a bit of time ( Yes I know it was in Singapore) the other one walks away with a whacking great pension, whilst we the taxpayers bail his ineptitude out to the the tune of billions >:( >:( Some maybe instead of £13 k a week he should get a few years at her majestys pleasure to think it over >Just a thought ::) ::) ::)
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The pension is certainly excessive and certainly undeserved. HOWEVER, take a read of this link and it pretty well sums up the situation for me:
http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2009/02/my-gob-is-smacked.html
"A senior minister of the government [Harriet Harperson] is brushing aside the rule of law and opening the door to the rule of the wishes of the Prime Minister and / or that of the baying mob...
...Is this what has come of more than two thousand years of British history? A bunch of spivs have walked in, brushed aside centuries-old rights and turned us into some sort of bizarre feral tyranny ... is that really it?"
It seems it is. >:( :'(
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With ref to the poem I put on the other 'Fred' thread, ref retrospective
action by the government, looks like Fred beat them to it. Have a read
of today's Observer.
Perhaps we should call him Janus Goodwin.
With ref to your pension, in the immortal words of 'Dirty Harry':
"Do yer feel lucky, punk?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/01/rbs-company-pensions
Former Royal Bank of Scotland employees will have their company pension payments slashed when they get to state retirement age - and Sir Fred Goodwin, the bank's richest pensioner, personally rejected union pleas for leniency over the so-called "clawback" provisions.
It has also emerged that Goodwin altered the arrangements for early retirement three years ago, raising the minimum age at which employees could take it from 50 to 55 - and then only if pensions were cut by between 20% and 40%.
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There may be an issue over gross misconduct. If information has come to light which demonstrates fraud or wilful neglect then theoretically there may be grounds for reviewing his package. However, let us not forget that in all the files there will be many others inolved in this mess and I should be very surprised if Goodwin was acting contrary to advice received from lawyers and financial advisors. It is the integrity of this advice that also needs to be investigated - no doubt these people are still on the scene.
There are of course other board members who will have to account for their part in this and also whether the government was misled at all by any of the so called professional firms.
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Harman is trying to pile pressure on Brown and back him into a corner she hopes he cant get out of because she desperately wants his job. ;)
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Picture the future.....
GB plc looses any fatally flawed attempt to turn back the clock and remove the chaps negotiated right (wrong?) to his pension.
Sometime in the future, said chap takes a walk across a bridge in London or wherever and gets prodded by the tip of an umbrella. Miraculously, the 'problem' goes away.
Theres already a precedent for that one, albeit from another (not so distant politically) country..... ::)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article641827.ece
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While we are hypothosising(is that a real word? ::)) on conspiracy theories,what do all these(and possibly a few others)have in common?
John Smith
Tony Banks (think that was his name-ex sports minister)
Mo Mowlam
Robin Cook
Dr, David Kelly
They all died before they would normally have been expected to,and it was advantageous to Tony Blairs career when they did.
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He should at least lose his knighthood ---- back in the day a cock up like this would have cost him his head !!!!
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well,if Jeffrey Archer didnt lose his,and unbelievably Mandelson has recently had one bestowed on him................
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well,if Jeffrey Archer didnt lose his,and unbelievably Mandelson has recently had one bestowed on him................
Good points -- these days the bestowed titles are worthless >:(
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It is a corrupt system, so I doubt we can expect any honourable solution..........like someone losing their head! :D :D ;)
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Just heard an employment lawyer commenting on the telly. It doesn't look as if there's any way it can be reclaimed.
I'm glad, in a way. He shouldn't have got it but I'd feel uncomfortable about the law being changed to claw it back.
Just get an MI5 officer to kill him, that would be the british way :y
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I think the most ridiculous thing I have seen in a long time was Mandelson speaking to reporters about Fred-"if he has a shred of decency,he will do the right thing". How that slimey crook can speak with a straight face about decency and the right thing.....
Just proves I suppose that,he is convinced that most of us are mugs.
I would imagine that if we knew the figures for his earnings and pensions etc,from his days as an MP+his days as a european commissioner+ his entitlements for being a lord,the total may be even more than Fred is getting. >:( >:(
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he should keep the money,the people whos butt needs kicking are the people who approved his contract
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Although I think he is a disgrace,I read somewhere that he did forego his bonus and last years salary,maybe he is thinking that the idiots in government had the chance to slash the discretionary portion of his pension and were to dim too realise,so now that someone has told them, he is not going to cave in to the pressure being applied.
Another possible scenario is that he cut a deal with them to keep his pension,but now that it has made headlines the politicians are going back on the deal and are trying to align themselves with the "little man on the street".
Tbh anything is possible with this shower.
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It is a corrupt system, so I doubt we can expect any honourable solution..........like someone losing their head! :D :D ;)
I'm just an old fashioned kinda guy ;)
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Sadly this is the culmination of the "ME FIRST " attitude that has prevailed for the last three decades .
Remember the phrase " Greed is good " which was adopted as the banking industry's mantra.
I feel utterly ,utterly disgusted at the grasping, self centred and greedy attitude employed by these " pillers of society " who are singley responsible for bringing untold misery upon millions of decent people.
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I did hear a creative solution to this problem on the radio this week. Let him keep his pension but invest his pension pot in the same toxic assets that the government has had to bail out. That way, his pension becomes truly performance related and, if it turns out that he wasn't as daft as we all think, he should have nothing at all to worry about. ;D
Kevin
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Sadly this is the culmination of the "ME FIRST " attitude that has prevailed for the last three decades .
Remember the phrase " Greed is good " which was adopted as the banking industry's mantra.
I feel utterly ,utterly disgusted at the grasping, self centred and greedy attitude employed by these " pillers of society " who are singley responsible for bringing untold misery upon millions of decent people.
Also remember the phrase"there is no such thing as society"?.....Margeret Thatcher gave us that little beauty in the 80,s,and it could explain a lot of what we see in the U.K. today. :(
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Sadly this is the culmination of the "ME FIRST " attitude that has prevailed for the last three decades .
Remember the phrase " Greed is good " which was adopted as the banking industry's mantra.
I feel utterly ,utterly disgusted at the grasping, self centred and greedy attitude employed by these " pillers of society " who are singley responsible for bringing untold misery upon millions of decent people.
Also remember the phrase"there is no such thing as society"?.....Margeret Thatcher gave us that little beauty in the 80,s,and it could explain a lot of what we see in the U.K. today. :(
Sorry, guys but this "greed is good" mantra just doesn't wash with me. It's oversimplifying a very complex situation. Naturally, all banks and financial organisations were keen to improve income. It's much the same principle followed by those who buy up properties, give them a makeover and sell them on. I don't regard that as evil. In the same way, I don't regard corner shopkeepers buying goods at the cash and carry and selling them on at a mark up as evil. It's the way it goes.
In the case of the banks, history will show that they were foolish and gullible. The age of computerisation has hoodwinked us all into thinking that a silicon chip can foretell the future. It can't. There is an excellent article linked below which shows that an algorithm (the Gaussian copula function), seemed to predict risk from large mortgage portfolios to an amazing degree of accuracy. It was used by banks, traders and regulators. The only problem was that it was based on only 10 years of data, during which house prices monotonically increased. The program could not handle price falls and defaults because it didn't "know" such a situation could exist. That the financial world could get suckered in by this technology is the worrying thing. It could be that the blame for the credit crunch will one day be laid firmly at the door of this algorithm.
There is a moral to this story, but it will probably get ignored. After all, how many technos do we know that swear by the latest bit of software?
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=1
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http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=31810
very interesting reading Nickbat.It can also be argued that anyone who bought buy to let,spent equity from a house to purchase car/holidays etc; or just plainly forgot the lessons from the last time the housing bubble burst,less than 20 years ago,has played their own small part.
The link above is less serious in content ,but does make some good points about the role of "Culpability Brown".
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http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/brown-refuses-to-hand-back-pension-200902271606/
read this. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/brown-refuses-to-hand-back-pension-200902271606/
read this. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nice link, Albitz! :y :y ;D ;D ;D ;D
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some other good stuff on that site,daughter just told me about it. :y
Told her about your postings regarding working in the city in the eighties,she said she would have loved to have worked there then and that you probably got out at the right time.
was interested to know what financial literature you have written. :y
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Heres another.... :) http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/hbos-risk-control-run-by-evel-knievel-200902181587/
and.....http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/bank-bosses-urged-to-stick-apologies-up-their-arse-200902111571/
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/not-even-i-believe-that-shit%2c-pope-tells-brown-200902201592/ ;D ;D
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some other good stuff on that site,daughter just told me about it. :y
Told her about your postings regarding working in the city in the eighties,she said she would have loved to have worked there then and that you probably got out at the right time.
was interested to know what financial literature you have written. :y
PM sent! :y
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PM recieved ,thanks Nickbat.Will pass the details to miss Bitz,she will be very interested. :y
If you read those other 3 links,I think you will be amused. :)
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It has now been officially announced Sir Fred's pension is actually:
[size=24]£703,000 per year![/size][/b]
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It has now been officially announced Sir Fred's pension is actually:
[size=24]£703,000 per year![/size][/b]
Me personnally, would like to add the £3000/ yr on my pension :y :y :y but the truth be be known i've got no chance
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It has now been officially announced Sir Fred's pension is actually:
[size=24]£703,000 per year![/size][/b]
Me personnally, would like to add the £3000/ yr (cant decide if I mean year or your) on my pension :y :y :y but the truth be be known i've got no chance
Year :y :y :y
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It has now been officially announced Sir Fred's pension is actually:
[size=24]£703,000 per year![/size][/b]
Divide by 52 and we get £13519.23p. per week Lizzie.
How will he survive,Hard times ahead for Sir Fred. :'( :'( :'( :'( :-*
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It has now been officially announced Sir Fred's pension is actually:
[size=24]£703,000 per year![/size][/b]
Divide by 52 and we get £13519.23p. per week Lizzie.
How will he survive,Hard times ahead for Sir Fred. :'( :'( :'( :'( :-*
I wonder how many pair's of shoes and handbags that would buy :) :) ::) ::)
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It has now been officially announced Sir Fred's pension is actually:
[size=24]£703,000 per year![/size][/b]
Divide by 52 and we get £13519.23p. per week Lizzie.
How will he survive,Hard times ahead for Sir Fred. :'( :'( :'( :'( :-*
I wonder how many pair's of shoes and handbags that would buy :) :) ::) ::)
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Lizzie could make that amount of money stretch..........to three handbags and two pairs of shoes.....................very frugal is Lizzie. ::) ::) ::) :y