Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Taxi_Driver on 12 May 2009, 19:00:48
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I was asked by my office the other day if i have a PCV license.
I said does that mean I can drive a 16 seater? They said yes.
So I said yes, coz on my driving licence it says i can drive class D1 and D1E.
Doing a little digging on the interwebby ive come across a site that says I can drive a 16 seater for hire and reward and another site that says I can drive a 16 seater but not for hire and reward. :-?
Ive never done a PCV course or test, just the normal driving test.
I guess its on my license coz i took the driving test yonks ago and then they let you drive nearly anything.
So im a bit confused now....so nothing new there ;D
Question is can I drive a 16 seater for hire and reward?
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no not for hire or reward see
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022498
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From DirectGov:
Driving licence held before 1 January 1997
If you had entitlement to drive cars prior to 1 January 1997 you can drive a minibus provided you are 21 or over and the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the driver's seat and is not being used for hire or reward.
To drive a minibus which has nine or more passenger seats for hire or reward you will normally need passenger carrying vehicle entitlement (PCV). To obtain this you must meet higher medical standards and take a further driving test. However, if you drive a minibus for an organisation under the minibus or community bus permit scheme you will not need to have the higher PCV entitlements.
* Minibus and community bus permits
New rules from 1 January 1998
Your minibus entitlement will remain valid in the United Kingdom (UK) and on temporary visits abroad until your licence is next renewed. When your licence is renewed, your minibus entitlement can only be issued if you make a special application, which will involve meeting higher medical standards.
If your minibus entitlement is renewed you will normally be granted a licence for three years which will allow you to drive a minibus, not for hire or reward, in the UK and on temporary visits to other European Community/European Economic Area (EC/EEA) countries. See below for more details about licences that will be accepted abroad.
If your minibus entitlement is not renewed, the entitlement will no longer appear on your licence. However if you are aged under 70 years, you may still be able to drive minibuses in certain circumstances. Drivers whose licences are due for renewal will receive advice about these new procedures with their renewal reminder letter.
So, I would say no .... unless your firm runs under the community bus permit scheme. More details of that here:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_10013072
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Mantagte -- you got there first this time :D
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No wonder there's such confusion about what you can & can't drive or what you can or can't tow when the rules are so complex & change at the drop of a hat. >:( >:( >:( :-?
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No wonder there's such confusion about what you can & can't drive or what you can or can't tow when the rules are so complex & change at the drop of a hat. >:( >:( >:( :-?
Thanks guys for the answers......now think about this one...
As I see it now......
For example.....
On my current license I would be able to drive a 'dial a ride' 16 seater, as I would be a volunteer driver, ie not getting paid for it.
My firm wins a contract off 'dial a ride' and buys a 16 seater.
But I wouldnt be allowed to drive it (not having taken a PCV test) to pick the same people up as I would be being paid to drive it.
TBH i carnt see what the difference is, safety wise :-/ ::)
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......
TBH i carnt see what the difference is, safety wise :-/ ::)
You're confusing safety with people - at the top - keeping themselves in a job.
A bit like speed cameras .......... :-X ...... I'll get my flak jacket at tthe door! ;)
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Im lead to believe the test is about £300 ,was talking to one off me workmates who runs a limo service and that was what it cost him
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The truly ridiculous thing about this is, it was brought in a number of years ago when teachers where crashing minibuses full of kids. Now I can see the logic of protecting kids. But they then exempted teachers from it, WTF where they on when they decided that.
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The truly ridiculous thing about this is, it was brought in a number of years ago when teachers where crashing minibuses full of kids. Now I can see the logic of protecting kids. But they then exempted teachers from it, WTF where they on when they decided that.
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Only because it is not for hire or reward, any group with the right aged driver can drive a bus on a car licence. Hire and reward does not count a charge for expenses, eg. Youth Group charging 50p each towards petrol costs, this is Ok on a car licence, of old.
All covered by legislation regarding 'Mini Bus Permit' When I ran Cubs I had 2 permits, 1 from Scout Association and one from Hertfordshire council cos I used it for work, worked with kids at the time.
The whole thing is a minefield, and, not even the Police are not aware of all the rules :)
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The truly ridiculous thing about this is, it was brought in a number of years ago when teachers where crashing minibuses full of kids. Now I can see the logic of protecting kids. But they then exempted teachers from it, WTF where they on when they decided that.
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Only because it is not for hire or reward, any group with the right aged driver can drive a bus on a car licence. Hire and reward does not count a charge for expenses, eg. Youth Group charging 50p each towards petrol costs, this is Ok on a car licence, of old.
All covered by legislation regarding 'Mini Bus Permit' When I ran Cubs I had 2 permits, 1 from Scout Association and one from Hertfordshire council cos I used it for work, worked with kids at the time.
The whole thing is a minefield, and, not even the Police are not aware of all the rules :)
But i would argue....that the teacher is being paid......if he's driving during his normal working hours :)
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The truly ridiculous thing about this is, it was brought in a number of years ago when teachers where crashing minibuses full of kids. Now I can see the logic of protecting kids. But they then exempted teachers from it, WTF where they on when they decided that.
[/highlight]
Only because it is not for hire or reward, any group with the right aged driver can drive a bus on a car licence. Hire and reward does not count a charge for expenses, eg. Youth Group charging 50p each towards petrol costs, this is Ok on a car licence, of old.
All covered by legislation regarding 'Mini Bus Permit' When I ran Cubs I had 2 permits, 1 from Scout Association and one from Hertfordshire council cos I used it for work, worked with kids at the time.
The whole thing is a minefield, and, not even the Police are not aware of all the rules :)
But i would argue....that the teacher is being paid......if he's driving during his normal working hours :)
Its the payment of seperate fares by each passenger thats the crux, not the wage paid to the driver. A teacher is salaries, the schoolkids are not paying seperate fares.
As others have said, there are exceptions such as youth groups/scouts etc where each passenger pays a fare towards the journey but the total monies for the journey equals the running expenses of the vehicle - purchase, insurance, wear and tear and such.... ;)
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The truly ridiculous thing about this is, it was brought in a number of years ago when teachers where crashing minibuses full of kids. Now I can see the logic of protecting kids. But they then exempted teachers from it, WTF where they on when they decided that.
[/highlight]
Only because it is not for hire or reward, any group with the right aged driver can drive a bus on a car licence. Hire and reward does not count a charge for expenses, eg. Youth Group charging 50p each towards petrol costs, this is Ok on a car licence, of old.
All covered by legislation regarding 'Mini Bus Permit' When I ran Cubs I had 2 permits, 1 from Scout Association and one from Hertfordshire council cos I used it for work, worked with kids at the time.
The whole thing is a minefield, and, not even the Police are not aware of all the rules :)
But i would argue....that the teacher is being paid......if he's driving during his normal working hours :)
Its the payment of seperate fares by each passenger thats the crux, not the wage paid to the driver. A teacher is salaries, the schoolkids are not paying seperate fares.
As others have said, there are exceptions such as youth groups/scouts etc where each passenger pays a fare towards the journey but the total monies for the journey equals the running expenses of the vehicle - purchase, insurance, wear and tear and such.... ;)
From what i understand then.....would it be ok for me to drive on my ordinary car license if i was doing an account/contract job.
Where for an example......my company charges the customer company account say £25 for the journey, but only pays me £15, as they keep the other £10 for the upkeep of the vehicle and diesel its used :-/
The individual passengers are not paying, the company they work for is.
Also in another example, say my company charges the local council, say the same amounts, for a school run.
Sorry still trying to get my head around this :-[
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Afaik you are still getting paid so its hire and reward.
During my recent spell of unemployment i did a bit cash in hand work for a local taxi firm and the mini bus drivers (16+ seats ) needed a pcv to drive them - But they could do taxi work without badges as it was pre booked lol ( i am a pcv/psv driver so i was doing the buses!)
In fact come to think of it i know 100% you need a pcv as they have tachographs in - and the firm i work for now has some and they have tachos also but dont have them in the 8 seaters and the newer ones have a digi tacho fitted :y
Hope my two penneth helps
Mick
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Nope, sorry TD. Does not work like that... Schools are exempt. Youth groups, OAP lunchclubs and the like are as well, but only because of specific legislation exemptions.
For the examples you cite it would be my understanding that a PCV would be required and that said PCV licence would enable you to drive a75 seat double decker, for hire or reward, as well as a 16 + driver minibus where payments are made, whether they are direct to you the driver or your contracted employer.
Would suggest you peruse the DVLA and VOSA websites for better particular requirements.... :(
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Nope, sorry TD. Does not work like that... Schools are exempt. Youth groups, OAP lunchclubs and the like are as well, but only because of specific legislation exemptions.
For the examples you cite it would be my understanding that a PCV would be required and that said PCV licence would enable you to drive a75 seat double decker, for hire or reward, as well as a 16 + driver minibus where payments are made, whether they are direct to you the driver or your contracted employer.
Would suggest you peruse the DVLA and VOSA websites for better particular requirements.... :(
Most of the schools up here that have mini buses have designated drivers who have had take a special mini bus test mind ( i know this from hearing them chattering on for hours about how hard it is - try driving a 15 metre coach !!!!!!! ;D ) :y
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Scout Groups must apply for whats called a section 19 permit which is a form of Operators Licence that exempts them from assorted CPC and similar bits and bobs. Reproduced as below. Your contracted employer will not have such an exemption and thus full PCV requirements come into play....
Minibus Permit - Section 19 Permit
IMPORTANT: You need a permit for a Scout Group Minibus
Why do we need a permit?
Any organisation that charges for providing transport (the legal term is to operate "for hire or reward") will normally be regarded as a Public Service Vehicle (PSV) operator. It would be a serious offence to do so without a PSV operator's licence.
The interpretation of charging for providing transport includes any payment in cash or kind which gives passengers the right to be carried. This specifically includes a payment to a club (e.g. subs to a Scout Group) that entitles you to travel free in the clubs transport even if the payment is not related to that particular journey.
Permit issued under Section 19 of the Transport Act 1985 allow certain non-profit organisations to charge for transport services without a PSV licence. The transport must only be for the organisation's own members or for groups the organisation serves.
Permit vehicles cannot be run as part of an activity that is itself carried on to make a profit and any charges must only cover running costs.
Vehicles that can carry fewer than 9 passengers do not require a permit even if the passengers pay.
How do we get a Section 19 Permit?
Permits are issued by a number of designated bodies who can issue to their member organisations. The Scout Association is one of the designated bodies so you should apply for your permit through them.
The permit is issued to a specific group, in our case the Scout Group. There is a small charge for issuing a Section 19 permit.
What do I get and what do I do with it?
For each permit granted a disc is issued. When a vehicle is being used under the permit the disc must be fixed to the inside of the windscreen so that it can be easily seen from outside the vehicle but does not obstruct the drivers view of the road.
You may move a disc from one vehicle to another, but if you wish to run more than one bus at any one time you will require a permit for each bus. Discs may also be used in this way for hire vehicles.
How long is the permit valid for?
There is no time limit on a permit and you will generally keep it indefinitely.
However the permit can be revoked or the conditions changed at any time by the Scout Association or the Traffic Commissioner if he informs the Scout Association. If the Scout Association stops issuing Section 19 Permits existing permits would cease to be valid.
What charges am I allowed to make?
You can set charges at a level to recover some or all of the costs of running the vehicle and may include an allowance for vehicle depreciation. This can not include the wages of any staff involved.
Charges must not be enough to make any profit even if it goes back into other running costs or charitable purposes.
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Nope, sorry TD. Does not work like that... Schools are exempt. Youth groups, OAP lunchclubs and the like are as well, but only because of specific legislation exemptions.
For the examples you cite it would be my understanding that a PCV would be required and that said PCV licence would enable you to drive a75 seat double decker, for hire or reward, as well as a 16 + driver minibus where payments are made, whether they are direct to you the driver or your contracted employer.
Would suggest you peruse the DVLA and VOSA websites for better particular requirements.... :(
Most of the schools up here that have mini buses have designated drivers who have had take a special mini bus test mind ( i know this from hearing them chattering on for hours about how hard it is - try driving a 15 metre coach !!!!!!! ;D ) :y
That will be either the MIDAS test or one from the local council. My council tried to test drive me before authorisation until I explained that I was more qualified than their 'examiner'... ;D
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Nope, sorry TD. Does not work like that... Schools are exempt. Youth groups, OAP lunchclubs and the like are as well, but only because of specific legislation exemptions.
For the examples you cite it would be my understanding that a PCV would be required and that said PCV licence would enable you to drive a75 seat double decker, for hire or reward, as well as a 16 + driver minibus where payments are made, whether they are direct to you the driver or your contracted employer.
Would suggest you peruse the DVLA and VOSA websites for better particular requirements.... :(
Ah rite, i understand now....cheers everyone :y
I'll stick to my Viano me thinks ;D