Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 22 May 2009, 09:47:56

Title: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 22 May 2009, 09:47:56
Interesting article here. I'd never heard of neodymium before.  :o

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/hybrid-cars-minerals
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 10:10:11
Quote
Interesting article here. I'd never heard of neodymium before.  :o

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/hybrid-cars-minerals


It is indeed interesting Nick.  Like everything taken from the earth to provide the means by which we derive energy, there will be an eventual environmental cost.  

Hybrid technology is a means by which the utter dependance on fossil fuels can be, in part, shifted.  Its an illustration of how, with a bit of thought and application, new sustainable and, above all, practical technology can be developed to solve the problems now being experienced.

Is is a pity that the 'green' label has been attached so prominently to the technology as it isn't perfect - but it's a start :y :y

Great posting by the way, always thought provoking :y :y

The Prius is still a great wee car irrespective of this ;) ;)
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: TheBoy on 22 May 2009, 10:21:35
Quote
Quote
Interesting article here. I'd never heard of neodymium before.  :o

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/hybrid-cars-minerals


It is indeed interesting Nick.  Like everything taken from the earth to provide the means by which we derive energy, there will be an eventual environmental cost.  

Hybrid technology is a means by which the utter dependance on fossil fuels can be, in part, shifted.  Its an illustration of how, with a bit of thought and application, new sustainable and, above all, practical technology can be developed to solve the problems now being experienced.

Is is a pity that the 'green' label has been attached so prominently to the technology as it isn't perfect - but it's a start :y :y

Great posting by the way, always thought provoking :y :y

The Prius is still a great wee car irrespective of this ;) ;)
Its an awful drive!  On the upside, it does have a fairly low centre of gravity ;D

Remember, the idea is flawed - it needs to burn fossil fuels to charge its batteries, admittedly with an efficient petrol engine.  OK, so it can also charge when slowing down, but thats not 'free' energy, as you have to stay on the power for longer (the charging system has the same effect as using the brakes)
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 10:36:24
Quote
Quote
Quote
Interesting article here. I'd never heard of neodymium before.  :o

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/hybrid-cars-minerals


It is indeed interesting Nick.  Like everything taken from the earth to provide the means by which we derive energy, there will be an eventual environmental cost.  

Hybrid technology is a means by which the utter dependance on fossil fuels can be, in part, shifted.  Its an illustration of how, with a bit of thought and application, new sustainable and, above all, practical technology can be developed to solve the problems now being experienced.

Is is a pity that the 'green' label has been attached so prominently to the technology as it isn't perfect - but it's a start :y :y

Great posting by the way, always thought provoking :y :y

The Prius is still a great wee car irrespective of this ;) ;)
Its an awful drive!  On the upside, it does have a fairly low centre of gravity ;D

Remember, the idea is flawed - it needs to burn fossil fuels to charge its batteries, admittedly with an efficient petrol engine.  OK, so it can also charge when slowing down, but thats not 'free' energy, as you have to stay on the power for longer (the charging system has the same effect as using the brakes)


Yep TB, it takes a different mind-set to drive and enjoy.  I came from using 3.2s generally driven in extremis, so it took me a while to revert from the class 1 mentality to a rather more reasonable state. ;)

I have to say however that I've found the Prius more than civilised to live with - but then I might just be an old codger now ;D

It is flawed as it's a compromise, but it's a tangible effort on the road to an alternative means of propulsion :y :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 May 2009, 11:53:53
THE only green thing about the Prius is its engine....it was designed to get optimum efficiency.

Trouble is that that made it un-deriveable so they had to bolt a hybrid unit on to make it useable in the real world!  ;D
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 12:02:17
Quote
THE only green thing about the Prius is its engine....it was designed to get optimum efficiency.

Trouble is that that made it un-deriveable so they had to bolt a hybrid unit on to make it useable in the real world!  ;D


 ;D ;D very good ;D ;D
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 May 2009, 12:35:40
Quote
Quote
THE only green thing about the Prius is its engine....it was designed to get optimum efficiency.

Trouble is that that made it un-deriveable so they had to bolt a hybrid unit on to make it useable in the real world!  ;D


 ;D ;D very good ;D ;D

Its reality.

The valve timing etc is set such that the power delivery is very peeky and not to user friendly.
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Omega man 2 on 22 May 2009, 12:55:18
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP-tyvBGla4&feature=related[/media]
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Matchless on 22 May 2009, 15:59:12
On a similar vein (no pun intended)

Put Sudbury, Canada (SAS / MAN border) into google earth and look at the surrounding moonscape.

Sudbury is the site of one of the main nickel smelters and the pollutants from the flue have killed off all vegetation for 100's of miles, you can even guess the direction of the prevailing winds from the pics.
I worked at the nickel mine in Flin Flon just south of Sudbury and it is almost desert going north towards the smelter.

Add the environmental impact of shipping the nickel to the UK for processing, then on to Japan for turning into batteries, then back to europe fitted into Prius cars etc and the 'Green' ticket looks somewhat kahki.
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 17:46:50
Quote
On a similar vein (no pun intended)

Put Sudbury, Canada (SAS / MAN border) into google earth and look at the surrounding moonscape.

Sudbury is the site of one of the main nickel smelters and the pollutants from the flue have killed off all vegetation for 100's of miles, you can even guess the direction of the prevailing winds from the pics.
I worked at the nickel mine in Flin Flon just south of Sudbury and it is almost desert going north towards the smelter.

Add the environmental impact of shipping the nickel to the UK for processing, then on to Japan for turning into batteries, then back to europe fitted into Prius cars etc and the 'Green' ticket looks somewhat kahki.


You might want to look at this Matchless;

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html

There was, and still is, a lot of black propaganda surrounding this issue.  The point is that at least an alternative is being tried, it's a small step on the journey.  

This is why I said before that the 'green' label unfairly saddles the car with something that the Prius or any other low emission can't sustain, as the nature of the final product will always have an environmental impact. :y  It's still a reasonable effort however :y :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 17:49:27
Quote
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP-tyvBGla4&feature=related[/media]


 ;D ;D ;D I might be that sensitive guy Ron 8-)  ;D ;D :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 17:54:23
Quote
Quote
Quote
THE only green thing about the Prius is its engine....it was designed to get optimum efficiency.

Trouble is that that made it un-deriveable so they had to bolt a hybrid unit on to make it useable in the real world!  ;D


 ;D ;D very good ;D ;D

Its reality.

The valve timing etc is set such that the power delivery is very peeky and not to user friendly.


That may be Mark but it's still not a bad wee drive.  You just have to adapt a different technique needed to get the best of it on the road - honest - STF ;D :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: HerefordElite on 22 May 2009, 21:05:53
Quote
Quote
On a similar vein (no pun intended)

Put Sudbury, Canada (SAS / MAN border) into google earth and look at the surrounding moonscape.

Sudbury is the site of one of the main nickel smelters and the pollutants from the flue have killed off all vegetation for 100's of miles, you can even guess the direction of the prevailing winds from the pics.
I worked at the nickel mine in Flin Flon just south of Sudbury and it is almost desert going north towards the smelter.

Add the environmental impact of shipping the nickel to the UK for processing, then on to Japan for turning into batteries, then back to europe fitted into Prius cars etc and the 'Green' ticket looks somewhat kahki.


You might want to look at this Matchless;

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html

There was, and still is, a lot of black propaganda surrounding this issue.  The point is that at least an alternative is being tried, it's a small step on the journey.  

This is why I said before that the 'green' label unfairly saddles the car with something that the Prius or any other low emission can't sustain, as the nature of the final product will always have an environmental impact. :y  It's still a reasonable effort however :y :y


reasonable efort it may be but nobody looks at the bigger picture, load of dogooding lip service.

have a look at the american  'dust to dust' survey to see what really constitutes a 'green' car :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Matchless on 22 May 2009, 21:46:04
Quote
Quote
On a similar vein (no pun intended)

Put Sudbury, Canada (SAS / MAN border) into google earth and look at the surrounding moonscape.

Sudbury is the site of one of the main nickel smelters and the pollutants from the flue have killed off all vegetation for 100's of miles, you can even guess the direction of the prevailing winds from the pics.
I worked at the nickel mine in Flin Flon just south of Sudbury and it is almost desert going north towards the smelter.

Add the environmental impact of shipping the nickel to the UK for processing, then on to Japan for turning into batteries, then back to europe fitted into Prius cars etc and the 'Green' ticket looks somewhat kahki.


You might want to look at this Matchless;

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html

There was, and still is, a lot of black propaganda surrounding this issue.  The point is that at least an alternative is being tried, it's a small step on the journey.  

This is why I said before that the 'green' label unfairly saddles the car with something that the Prius or any other low emission can't sustain, as the nature of the final product will always have an environmental impact. :y  It's still a reasonable effort however :y :y

The problem with the Sudbury plant was (and is) that the EPA labelled it as a gross polluter and required its closure or millions of dollars to be spent on cleaning it up. There is no other work in the area and several towns only exist because of the mines, nickel smelter and a tiny amount of gold. If the smelter closes the cost to the community os massive so they were granted exemption to the EPA directives.

I have seen the trees that were planted and are still being planted every year. They seem to reach about 6-7 ft high the die. Its a really wierd landscape. If you drive 2-3 hours west then there is thick woodland and forest, but drive east and there is nothing but dead trees and brown grass.
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Matchless on 22 May 2009, 21:49:38
I had a Prius driver come up to me in a car park recently and start ranting about how my 10yr old gas guzzler was destroying the planet.
If only he thought about the environmental cost of producing a new car he would see that older cars are actually 'greener', we need to get the maximum use out of them before making a fresh one.
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 22 May 2009, 21:53:56
The problem is that so much of the current green hype is propaganda.

Despite our advances in technology and population growth, much of the environment is better now than for many years. The Thames is clean enough to support fish, the smogs of the 1950s and 60s are long gone. It’s not all doom and gloom on the environment front.

The Prius and the other hybrids are knee-jerk reactions to the global warming hype. Saddling western societies with green taxes and regulation (such as through the Waxman-Markey bill in the US Senate) will stifle profitability and thus research and development. It just doesn't work. Given time, we can come up with new technologies. There's no question in my mind about that. In 50 years' time, the cars we will be buying will be hugely different from today's vehicles.

Personally, I don't think the Prius is a step forward. Technologically speaking, it's the love child of a night’s passion between a Mondeo and a milk float.

The simplest answer to most energy problems lies in the invention of a cheap and simple way to store electricity. We don't have the answer yet, but it will come. The batteries of today are crude and, as we can see in the article, laden with environmental problems. Wind power is similarly daft as a substitute for base load, yet more and more are being built. Essentially for every windmill put in place you need an equivalent of its output in conventional generation so that it can be substituted during no wind (or high wind) days.

In the meantime, until new electricity storage solutions are developed, we need to refine the petrol/diesel engine. KERS is an interesting development.

If I were PM I would set manufacturers the following challenge: Develop a mass production, 4-seater vehicle which can cruise at 100mph, with a minimum range of 250 miles and minimum fuel consumption of 100mpg (equivalent). The winning company would get at least two years' exemption from all taxes. That would attract huge investment and massive R&D.

The Prius? Just a gimmick, I'm afraid.  :( 
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 22:35:59
Quote
I had a Prius driver come up to me in a car park recently and start ranting about how my 10yr old gas guzzler was destroying the planet.
If only he thought about the environmental cost of producing a new car he would see that older cars are actually 'greener', we need to get the maximum use out of them before making a fresh one.


You are right enough there Matchless I have met those self same smug individuals and take a certain amount of pleasure informing them that my other car is a distinctly un-environmentaly friendly Omega and that I am presently looking for a P38 4.6 Range Rover. 8-)

The Prius however remains my car of choice for trips into Belfast :y :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 22:57:53
Quote


Prius and the other hybrids are knee-jerk reactions to the global warming hype.


Both Toyota and Honda were working on the technology from the mid 90s when environmental matters were not as precient as they now are, so is it fair to describe the resultant technology as a knee-jerk reaction? :-/


Technologically speaking, it's the love child of a night’s passion between a Mondeo and a milk float.

I like that, it's a great descriptor ;D ;D :y


If I were PM I would set manufacturers the following challenge: Develop a mass production, 4-seater vehicle which can cruise at 100mph, with a minimum range of 250 miles and minimum fuel consumption of 100mpg (equivalent). The winning company would get at least two years' exemption from all taxes. That would attract huge investment and massive


That's what should happen Nick - but will it? :-/ :-/ No one seems to want to belly-up until they're forced to by legislation or financial penalty :(

The Prius? Just a gimmick, I'm afraid


It's a really practical car Nick, hybrid or not and it deserves to be regarded much more for this practicality than the 'green' label so readily applied to it :y :y

This has been a great topic and I thank you for raising it.  It's refreshing to see an argument presented in a well researched and balanced way and I look forward to your future posts with much interest :y :y

When you're an old geezer like me it's important to keep the grey matter active otherwise it turns to custard :D :D
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Kevin Wood on 22 May 2009, 23:02:37
Quote
I had a Prius driver come up to me in a car park recently and start ranting about how my 10yr old gas guzzler was destroying the planet.

I think what they really mean to say is "can you light up the rears as you depart? I've forgotten what it's like"  ;D

It's kinder to oblige, IMHO. :D

Kevin
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 22 May 2009, 23:10:29
Quote
Quote
I had a Prius driver come up to me in a car park recently and start ranting about how my 10yr old gas guzzler was destroying the planet.

I think what they really mean to say is "can you light up the rears as you depart? I've forgotten what it's like" ;D

It's kinder to oblige, IMHO. :D

Kevin

In the local parlance Kevin - You're suckin' diesel now ya boy ye ;D ;D :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 22 May 2009, 23:37:19
Zulu 77: It's a really practical car Nick, hybrid or not

Yep, you're right. Neighbour opposite me is using one as a cab. My problem is those who see it as a Toyota Pious. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 23 May 2009, 00:42:33
Quote
Zulu 77: It's a really practical car Nick, hybrid or not

Yep, you're right. Neighbour opposite me is using one as a cab. My problem is those who see it as a Toyota Pious. ;) ;D


 ;D ;D good one Nick  ;D ;D and there are many of them about :-[ :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Banjax on 23 May 2009, 10:52:27
Quote
The problem is that so much of the current green hype is propaganda.

Despite our advances in technology and population growth, much of the environment is better now than for many years. The Thames is clean enough to support fish, the smogs of the 1950s and 60s are long gone. It’s not all doom and gloom on the environment front.

The Prius and the other hybrids are knee-jerk reactions to the global warming hype. Saddling western societies with green taxes and regulation (such as through the Waxman-Markey bill in the US Senate) will stifle profitability and thus research and development. It just doesn't work. Given time, we can come up with new technologies. There's no question in my mind about that. In 50 years' time, the cars we will be buying will be hugely different from today's vehicles.

Personally, I don't think the Prius is a step forward. Technologically speaking, it's the love child of a night’s passion between a Mondeo and a milk float.

The simplest answer to most energy problems lies in the invention of a cheap and simple way to store electricity. We don't have the answer yet, but it will come. The batteries of today are crude and, as we can see in the article, laden with environmental problems. Wind power is similarly daft as a substitute for base load, yet more and more are being built. Essentially for every windmill put in place you need an equivalent of its output in conventional generation so that it can be substituted during no wind (or high wind) days.

In the meantime, until new electricity storage solutions are developed, we need to refine the petrol/diesel engine. KERS is an interesting development.

If I were PM I would set manufacturers the following challenge: Develop a mass production, 4-seater vehicle which can cruise at 100mph, with a minimum range of 250 miles and minimum fuel consumption of 100mpg (equivalent). The winning company would get at least two years' exemption from all taxes. That would attract huge investment and massive R&D.

The Prius? Just a gimmick, I'm afraid.  :( 

totally agree Nickbat!
the prius is a gimmick - made to con people that want to be seen to be doing the right thing - i read an article a while ago that argued (very well) that a Prius was costlier to the environment than a Hummer! - i'll see if i can remember where it was.

the fact is that the internal combustion engine has been honed and developed continually for over 100yrs and as a consequence is incredibly efficient at burning fuel - cars like the prius aren't the answer - nut Toyota have cottoned on to the fact that people like to be seen to be green - Pious indeed

far better channelling their resources into technology like the Honda Clarity - uses hydrogen cells but as it took 100yrs to get where we are with engines, it may take time before a viable alternative is found.

what's not in dispute is that an alternative WILL be needed :o
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Omega man 2 on 23 May 2009, 11:47:53
It's not just the prius. If you drive it because it's actually good as a car i.e practical,spacious etc. thats fine.

But it's the whole hybrid image thats the problem. "Global warming" must be the best money spinner ever.

First of all the new scrappage scheme, great idea! Get rid of your perfactly good 10-year-old car that is paid for and not wasting anything that isn't necessary,buy an new car thats been shiped around the world a couple of times,save the car industry and give the government more tax.Then when you buy said car you'll be charged green tax.

Government then wastes that tax money on pointless "carbon credits".

Al Gore actually owns a carbon credit company then goes preaching global warming, what an entrepreneur!!
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 23 May 2009, 18:35:05
Quote
[

made to thcon people at want to be seen to be doing the right thing

I have to say bannjaxx  I don't consider myself conned,  the Prius seems to deliver as promised. I can balance the green hype as I have retained the Omega and am presently looking for a nice P38 Range Rover 4.6


cars like the prius aren't the answer - nut Toyota have cottoned on to the fact that people like to be seen to be green


Toyota are in the business of designing and selling cars and it's to their advantage that the confusion over 'green-ness' has been exploited by lawmakers in an effort to draw more cash from the great unwashed and to prepare us for even greater state control - Controlling free movement = controlling the populace.


what's not in dispute is that an alternative WILL be needed :o[/quote]


You've nailed that one dead bannjaxx but what will it be.  Toyota and Honda got the ball rolling by developing the technology whenever the industry in general was too busy making money by exploiting existing and essentially out-dated technology.

I will however endeavour to gather a supply of gum as I don't want my arse kicked anymore ;D ;D ;D :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 23 May 2009, 18:37:49
Quote
It's not just the prius. If you drive it because it's actually good as a car i.e practical,spacious etc. thats fine.

But it's the whole hybrid image thats the problem. "Global warming" must be the best money spinner ever.
First of all the new scrappage scheme, great idea! Get rid of your perfactly good 10-year-old car that is paid for and not wasting anything that isn't necessary,buy an new car thats been shiped around the world a couple of times,save the car industry and give the government more tax.Then when you buy said car you'll be charged green tax.

Government then wastes that tax money on pointless "carbon credits".

Al Gore actually owns a carbon credit company then goes preaching global warming, what an entrepreneur!!


It is Ron and we'll all pay very dearly for it :y :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 23 May 2009, 19:01:56
Maybe the Stirling engine is the way forward? I'd never heard of it before, but it looks mighty interesting:

http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/search/label/Dean%20Kamen

"A Stirling can run on just about anything that creates heat, from gasoline, kerosene, and ethanol, to natural gas, propane, hydrogen, and, yes, the methane given off by animal manure."

 :o :o :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 23 May 2009, 19:09:16
Quote
Maybe the Stirling engine is the way forward? I'd never heard of it before, but it looks mighty interesting:

http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/search/label/Dean%20Kamen

"A Stirling can run on just about anything that creates heat, from gasoline, kerosene, and ethanol, to natural gas, propane, hydrogen, and, yes, the methane given off by animal manure."

 :o :o :y


Nick you're going to get the back of my head smacked.  SWMBO has directed me to attended the kitchen and make the dinner ( I do all the cooking you see) and I have been gently reminded that I've 'been sitting at that box for hours' ;D

It does sound interesting however, so I'll look into it later after discharging my domestic duties :y :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Martin_1962 on 23 May 2009, 21:17:19
I get the feeling that my 115,000 mile Omega is green as it is in reasonable conditon and getting better. Also it runs on LPG - which is a by product from refining and used to get flared
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 23 May 2009, 23:46:55
Quote
I get the feeling that my 115,000 mile Omega is green as it is in reasonable conditon and getting better. Also it runs on LPG - which is a by product from refining and used to get flared

That's an important point Martin. :y

 I agree totally.  It must be more sensible to continue to use well looked-after vehicles until they reach the end of their practical service lives rather than junk them, for something apparently better for the environment, before it's absolutely necessary.

The replacement creates it's own environmental impact and why cause additional problems when it's so unnecessary :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 24 May 2009, 00:17:23
Quote
Maybe the Stirling engine is the way forward? I'd never heard of it before, but it looks mighty interesting:

http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/search/label/Dean%20Kamen

"A Stirling can run on just about anything that creates heat, from gasoline, kerosene, and ethanol, to natural gas, propane, hydrogen, and, yes, the methane given off by animal manure."

 :o :o :y


It looks more than interesting Nick, I would liked to have seen it running in the vehicle however :-/

It does show that research is the dominant force in any desire for change and such research, should not be bound to the contemporary disipline.

The real worth of this technology, if it is indeed practical, lies with the ability of the individual to generate his/her own energy from an easliy powered engine, independent of the national grid :y

That could solve many of the very problems knocking on each and every door at the moment :y

I fear that we all must begin to realise that the only way we can be sure of surviving with any degree of reason, is that we must be in a position to help ourselves :y :y  The state seems to be unwilling or incapable of doing it ;) ;)
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Entwood on 24 May 2009, 23:16:35
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Stirling engine was designed for applications that run continuously at the about the same speed ??? Like pumps, generators etc ??

I don't see it being able to accelerate/decelerate quickly enough to be useable as a motive engine...  :(

Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 25 May 2009, 00:28:30
Quote
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Stirling engine was designed for applications that run continuously at the about the same speed ??? Like pumps, generators etc ??

I don't see it being able to accelerate/decelerate quickly enough to be useable as a motive engine...  :(


I agree that the Stirling has limitations and is probably best used as part of a hybrid package. This chap, Dean Kamen, has built one and I think the technology looks very promising.  :y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3353906/Dean-Kamen-part-man-part-machine.html
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 25 May 2009, 11:21:51
Quote

I agree that the Stirling has limitations and is probably best used as part of a hybrid package. This chap, Dean Kamen, has built one and I think the technology looks very promising.  :y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3353906/Dean-Kamen-part-man-part-machine.html



 in theory it can turn any source of heat into electricity, in silence and with 100 per cent efficiency


This is where the potential problem rests Nick - the theoretical nature of the engine efficiency.  There's no point in being able to use a range of very different fuels, irrespective of how common or abundant, if you need to fuel up every 100 miles, say


Stirling engine's not hooked up. Which really pisses me off.'

Does this indicate an underlying problem with the practical nature of the device?


It might fail, but you've got to try. Look at the state of the world,' he says. 'It's a mess. What if we can fix it?'

There's the rub, how easy or financially reasonable  is it going to be to seek an answer.  This is why I've said that the hybrid take on this is simply a step on the way.  In the form of the Prius it's seems to at least a practical one :y  I also echo your hope Nick and eagerly await real world trials of this interesting technology :y :y

Highlights courtesy of Daily Telegraph
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Entwood on 25 May 2009, 20:32:14
Quote
Quote
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Stirling engine was designed for applications that run continuously at the about the same speed ??? Like pumps, generators etc ??

I don't see it being able to accelerate/decelerate quickly enough to be useable as a motive engine...  :(


I agree that the Stirling has limitations and is probably best used as part of a hybrid package. This chap, Dean Kamen, has built one and I think the technology looks very promising.  :y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3353906/Dean-Kamen-part-man-part-machine.html


That is interesting .. using the Stirling to drive a generator [constant speed] to charge the batteries that drive the motors [variable speed] .... I wonder what efficiency he gets that way, and what fuel the Stirling is running on..
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Omega man 2 on 25 May 2009, 20:41:20
Quote
Quote
Quote
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Stirling engine was designed for applications that run continuously at the about the same speed ??? Like pumps, generators etc ??

I don't see it being able to accelerate/decelerate quickly enough to be useable as a motive engine...  :(


I agree that the Stirling has limitations and is probably best used as part of a hybrid package. This chap, Dean Kamen, has built one and I think the technology looks very promising.  :y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3353906/Dean-Kamen-part-man-part-machine.html


That is interesting .. using the Stirling to drive a generator [constant speed] to charge the batteries that drive the motors [variable speed] .... I wonder what efficiency he gets that way, and what fuel the Stirling is running on..

A sort of diesal electric car. Just use normal batteries to start and run the electrics. Don't bother with batteries to move the car, there just an unecessary expense.
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 25 May 2009, 22:27:40
Quote
Quote
Quote
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Stirling engine was designed for applications that run continuously at the about the same speed ??? Like pumps, generators etc ??

I don't see it being able to accelerate/decelerate quickly enough to be useable as a motive engine...  :(


I agree that the Stirling has limitations and is probably best used as part of a hybrid package. This chap, Dean Kamen, has built one and I think the technology looks very promising.  :y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3353906/Dean-Kamen-part-man-part-machine.html


That is interesting .. using the Stirling to drive a generator [constant speed] to charge the batteries that drive the motors [variable speed] .... I wonder what efficiency he gets that way, and what fuel the Stirling is running on..


The $64K question Entwood :y :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Martin_1962 on 26 May 2009, 22:50:39
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Stirling engine was designed for applications that run continuously at the about the same speed ??? Like pumps, generators etc ??

I don't see it being able to accelerate/decelerate quickly enough to be useable as a motive engine...  :(


I agree that the Stirling has limitations and is probably best used as part of a hybrid package. This chap, Dean Kamen, has built one and I think the technology looks very promising.  :y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3353906/Dean-Kamen-part-man-part-machine.html


That is interesting .. using the Stirling to drive a generator [constant speed] to charge the batteries that drive the motors [variable speed] .... I wonder what efficiency he gets that way, and what fuel the Stirling is running on..

A sort of diesal electric car. Just use normal batteries to start and run the electrics. Don't bother with batteries to move the car, there just an unecessary expense.


Mine is the one with twin Napier D18-25s
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 26 May 2009, 23:46:32
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Stirling engine was designed for applications that run continuously at the about the same speed ??? Like pumps, generators etc ??

I don't see it being able to accelerate/decelerate quickly enough to be useable as a motive engine...  :(


I agree that the Stirling has limitations and is probably best used as part of a hybrid package. This chap, Dean Kamen, has built one and I think the technology looks very promising.  :y

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3353906/Dean-Kamen-part-man-part-machine.html


That is interesting .. using the Stirling to drive a generator [constant speed] to charge the batteries that drive the motors [variable speed] .... I wonder what efficiency he gets that way, and what fuel the Stirling is running on..

A sort of diesal electric car. Just use normal batteries to start and run the electrics. Don't bother with batteries to move the car, there just an unecessary expense.


Mine is the one with twin Napier D18-25s

Martin, can I ask what that is (sorry for being thick)
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 26 May 2009, 23:56:32
I don't know either, Zulu, but I'd guess it has a train connection!  ;)
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Martin_1962 on 27 May 2009, 15:54:47
You are all on about Diesel Electric and they are the power units on the UKs most powerful loco
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 27 May 2009, 15:58:28
Quote
You are all on about Diesel Electric and they are the power units on the UKs most powerful loco

Told you so, Zulu!  ;)

Piccie please, Martin?  :)
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Martin_1962 on 27 May 2009, 15:59:43
http://www.thedps.co.uk/
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Nickbat on 27 May 2009, 16:04:03
Quote
http://www.thedps.co.uk/

Thanks, Martin! I remember them well. :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 27 May 2009, 16:16:44
Quote
Quote
You are all on about Diesel Electric and they are the power units on the UKs most powerful loco

Told you so, Zulu!  ;)

Piccie please, Martin?  :)


I bow to your expansive knowledge Nick 8-) :y :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: crazyjoetavola on 27 May 2009, 16:19:17
Quote
You are all on about Diesel Electric and they are the power units on the UKs most powerful loco


Thanks indeed Martin, I think I was confused when I read Ron Burgundy's reply - expecting it to refer to road transport :-[ :y
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Martin_1962 on 27 May 2009, 19:40:50
 ;D ;D :D :D
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Omega man 2 on 27 May 2009, 19:42:28
Quote
Quote
You are all on about Diesel Electric and they are the power units on the UKs most powerful loco


Thanks indeed Martin, I think I was confused when I read Ron Burgundy's reply - expecting it to refer to road transport :-[ :y

Oops :-[ :-[

I was refering to road transport, only with a sort of diesal electric layout in a car
Title: Re: Neodymium - why hybrids are not so green
Post by: Martin_1962 on 27 May 2009, 20:12:26
Quote
Quote
Quote
You are all on about Diesel Electric and they are the power units on the UKs most powerful loco


Thanks indeed Martin, I think I was confused when I read Ron Burgundy's reply - expecting it to refer to road transport :-[ :y

Oops :-[ :-[

I was refering to road transport, only with a sort of diesal electric layout in a car


I know hence my quip!