Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Debs. on 19 June 2009, 08:20:03
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I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.
Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
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it got sold down the river to brussells
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when i left school in 1976 everyone went into apprenterships in engineering, i dont know any young apprentices. now its a 4 weeks training and your a qualified electrician or plumber.
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Successive governments, both Tory and the right wing lot we have now, havetried to kill off manufacturing in this country, and tried to make sure we (as a country) only do service.
Hence, no engineering left, and no real apprenticeships in that sector
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it certainly is a shame what this country has lost over the years. :(
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There are still some bespoke items that need to be made by hand but, in the main, things are 'manufactured' by a robot these days.
The only way to make lots of money is to make lots of the same thing, so it makes sense really.
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That's substantial engineering. I certainly wouldn't get that prop on my 3 1/2" lathe !.
I liked the flame cutting out the crankshaft parts. I have done some at night classes, but that was 6mm sheet. Those crankshaft parts look about 2ft thick.
My Grandpa was a foreman millwright at NB Loco, building steam engines. I'll try and dig out some photos I have of his work.
Ken
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That's substantial engineering. I certainly wouldn't get that prop on my 3 1/2" lathe !.
I liked the flame cutting out the crankshaft parts. I have done some at night classes, but that was 6mm sheet. Those crankshaft parts look about 2ft thick.
My Grandpa was a foreman millwright at NB Loco, building steam engines. I'll try and dig out some photos I have of his work.
Ken
My grandad was a shipwright Ken, you dont see many of them nowadays. ::)
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There are still some bespoke items that need to be made by hand but, in the main, things are 'manufactured' by a robot these days.
The only way to make lots of money is to make lots of the same thing, so it makes sense really.
Yes there was one of those "Grand Design" programs recently where they were making a circular staircase from plywood parts, fitting together like something from Ikea. They had the parts cut out using a laser cutter :-? What ever happened to marking it up using a pencil and using a jigsaw ?.
Ken
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I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.
Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
This is an important topic Debs and I would love to get into it but have a job to look at - maybe later: y - but in the meantime, I would suggest it's the natural result of our legislators desire to bend over and take whatever Brussels doles out ( if you forgive my freedom )
The loss of pride, loss of individual responsibility, the expectation to have everything handed to us on a plate, the loss of practical skills being taught in schools, the desire to accept nothing but the glaringly obvious and the breakdown in how children are brought up to have enquiring minds by their over-worked, consumer conscious, Hello reading, Coronation Street watching, sport addicted parents, to name but a few other causes.
Damn you Debs I'm lit up now, so I'll have to return to this later ;D :y
From a 75% Misanthrope ( the OOF saved me ) to a failed one, have a good day :y :y
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In Stoke-on-Trent alone we have lost The Pottery Industry, British Steel and Coal Mines :(
Doultons got bought by an Indonesian Company if I remember rightly, which has not being able to sell the wear, so I have heard they are wanting to re open Doultons in Stoke but dont actually know how true that is.
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I think that one of the reasons for this is the snobbery that is based in our culture and has become more pronounced over the last few decades. Increasingly, youngsters in secondary school have been encouraged to go to university to study academic courses, or if they're not that academic, something more wish-washy like media. Those who want to work with their hands have been increasingly perceived as slightly dim. Why would anyone want to get their hands dirty, when they can earn bucket loads doing one of many non-jobs in the public sector?
So, as a society, the middle classes have come to look down on physical tasks like plumbing, carpentry, engineering, building, etc. The result is that these industries have been deprived of the pick of the best and most able candidates from school. Expertise has not been handed down and has thus been lost. The result is, as we so often notice, that even those in the physical labour markets have a sense of being somewhat second class, since they are looked down on, and they act accordingly.
"Hallo, Daaaarling! I hear young Samantha has got engaged, you must be thrilled"
"Yes"
"And what does her husband-to-be do?"
"He's a sheet-metal worker"
"Oh. Er, well, bye darling, must dash. I'll call sometime"
Ring any bells? ;)
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.....
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
..... and not a pair of safety specs insight!!! :-? :y :y :y :y :y
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"Hallo, Daaaarling! I hear young Samantha has got engaged, you must be thrilled"
"Yes"
"And what does her husband-to-be do?"
"He's a sheet-metal worker"
"Oh. Er, well, bye darling, must dash. I'll call sometime"
Ring any bells? ;)
Reminds me of the first woman who was potentially going to be my mother in law, her head couldn't have been any further up her arse if she tried...and she definately had delusions of grandeur about her social standing in life.
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..... and not a pair of safety specs insight!!! :-? :y :y :y :y :y
.....just the ubiquitous multi-function safety wear item that was the cloth cap!..... ;D
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There are still some bespoke items that need to be made by hand but, in the main, things are 'manufactured' by a robot these days.
The only way to make lots of money is to make lots of the same thing, so it makes sense really.
Yes there was one of those "Grand Design" programs recently where they were making a circular staircase from plywood parts, fitting together like something from Ikea. They had the parts cut out using a laser cutter :-? What ever happened to marking it up using a pencil and using a jigsaw ?.
Ken
Because if they had a CNC controlled laser based cutter tehy would have used it 100 years ago!
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i would just like to point out that the correct term for a "sheet metal worker"here in the carrot crunching end of the island is "tin basher" :y ;D
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"Hallo, Daaaarling! I hear young Samantha has got engaged, you must be thrilled"
"Yes"
"And what does her husband-to-be do?"
"He's a sheet-metal worker"
"Oh. Er, well, bye darling, must dash. I'll call sometime"
.....maybe the two "e`s" should be an "i"......so making the nominative a descriptive!;D
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I am afraid that from 1900 onwards British manufacturing was actually in decline, with the major competitors of Germany and the USA, followed later by Japan, taking many of the old Empire's markets with better quality and cheaper products being produced.
British engineering had become less and less competitive with the pressure from the trade unions to pay the work force higher wages, just when "rising sun's" like Japan had a very large and cheap work force going begging with an eager appitite to become the industrial might of the world. In the examples of ship building, railway locomotive building and of course the car industries, these market forces become too great for not only Britain, but Germany and the USA as well, with their heavy engineering capabilities being wound down as orders declined, workers demanded higher wages and health and safety became a growing issue. One example is the fact that Toyota is now the world leader of car production, beating all the efforts of Detroit!
This has of course continued into modern times, with now the likes of China taking the batton of mass production. Unless the working man is prepared to work again for poor wages, in dirty and dangerous environments, then heavy engineering will not in the foreseeable future return to our lands. Of course the likes of Britain, Germany and the USA now concentrate on the modern reality of the high tech industries and financial markets. I repeat this is the reality of today, which we must for now accept.
I personally regret the passing of the great days of heavy railway (yes, the likes of the great North British locomotive works and the Great Western Railway at Swindon, plus the rest! :-* :-* :-*) and ship building industries on the Tyne, at Belfast and elsewhere, but the facts are it has gone due to world market pressures. Life moves on, and many men are living longer due to the easier working conditions in the twenty first century. That has got to be good! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
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That's substantial engineering. I certainly wouldn't get that prop on my 3 1/2" lathe !.
I liked the flame cutting out the crankshaft parts. I have done some at night classes, but that was 6mm sheet. Those crankshaft parts look about 2ft thick.
My Grandpa was a foreman millwright at NB Loco, building steam engines. I'll try and dig out some photos I have of his work.
Ken
Will be very interesting :y
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I am afraid that from 1900 onwards British manufacturing was actually in decline, with the major competitors of Germany and the USA, followed later by Japan, taking many of the old Empire's markets with better quality and cheaper products being produced.
British engineering had become less and less competitive with the pressure from the trade unions to pay the work force higher wages, just when "rising sun's" like Japan had a very large and cheap work force going begging with an eager appitite to become the industrial might of the world. In the examples of ship building, railway locomotive building and of course the car industries, these market forces become too great for not only Britain, but Germany and the USA as well, with their heavy engineering capabilities being wound down as orders declined, workers demanded higher wages and health and safety became a growing issue. One example is the fact that Toyota is now the world leader of car production, beating all the efforts of Detroit!
This has of course continued into modern times, with now the likes of China taking the batton of mass production. Unless the working man is prepared to work again for poor wages, in dirty and dangerous environments, then heavy engineering will not in the foreseeable future return to our lands. Of course the likes of Britain, Germany and the USA now concentrate on the modern reality of the high tech industries and financial markets. I repeat this is the reality of today, which we must for now accept.
I personally regret the passing of the great days of heavy railway (yes, the likes of the great North British locomotive works and the Great Western Railway at Swindon, plus the rest! :-* :-* :-*) and ship building industries on the Tyne, at Belfast and elsewhere, but the facts are it has gone due to world market pressures. Life moves on, and many men are living longer due to the easier working conditions in the twenty first century. That has got to be good! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
very good Lizzie.. :y
so basic principles of economy politics work here as usual..
but I think there is no reason for the Brits to be desperate ..dont forget you produce vstol Harrier..
edit: your problem is just a matter of production cost which you can solve by breaking the heads of workers ;D
I must be desperate in the name of my country :'(
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I'm sure nobody here know what I will tell..
There is a famous saying in my country :
if you will be hanged
be hanged by English rope ... Yes..thats true.. :y
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Well said Lizzie. You beat me to the current Toyota situation.
Absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU I am afraid. The decline happened well before those days.
varche
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I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.
Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
I think every woman should be taught to cook :)
Runs and hides ;D
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It's not just the issue of cheap labour. Although Toyota are the largest, BMW, Audi and so on do very well although their German labour force costs are high.
We used to design high quality cars. Sir Alec Issigonis designed a car which was well ahead of its time when first manufactured. As well as poor government, our manufacturing base was also hit hard by the unions. Remember Red Robbo? >:( >:(
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I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.
Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
I think every woman should be taught to cook :)
Runs and hides ;D
1...2...3...10......`coming, ready or not! >:(
collecting my axe..... ;D
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I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.
Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
I think every woman should be taught to cook :)
Runs and hides ;D
1...2...3...10......`coming, ready or not! >:(
collecting my axe..... ;D
Oh dear! You have asked for trouble I fear ;)
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I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.
Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
I think every woman should be taught to cook :)
Runs and hides ;D
1...2...3...10......`coming, ready or not! >:(
collecting my axe..... ;D
Thats the first time a woman has ever said that to me ::)
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It's not just the issue of cheap labour. Although Toyota are the largest, BMW, Audi and so on do very well although their German labour force costs are high.
We used to design high quality cars. Sir Alec Issigonis designed a car which was well ahead of its time when first manufactured. As well as poor government, our manufacturing base was also hit hard by the unions. Remember Red Robbo? >:( >:(
But Nick I'm afraid to say that in those horrible days of the 1970s Britain was completely and utterly going down the toilet, fast! :'( :'( :'( :'( We were the joke of the world, being the "sick man of Europe" By then the 1960s mini, although a classic, was about the only British car to be proud of, and it was already fast becoming mechanically out dated. :'( :'( :'( :'(
The Conservative political slogan in the 1979 General Election campaign was "Labour isn't workin", and how very true that was with the likes of Red Robbo certainly doing incrediable damage to what little there was left of "quality" British car manufacturing! :'( :'( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Thats brought back memorys of my first job Debs, as an apprentice toolmaker back in the 70's. I was involved in the manufacture of products as diverse as baring Keep rings that weighed over five cwt used in power station applications and components parts of the Roll Royce RV211 engine. sadly the company closed down many years ago.
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Thats brought back memorys of my first job Debs, as an apprentice toolmaker back in the 70's. I was involved in the manufacture of products as diverse as baring Keep rings that weighed over five cwt used in power station applications and components parts of the Roll Royce RV211 engine. sadly the company closed down many years ago.
Probably went bust with you and the lads going down the scrappy every five minutes eh Tony ;) ;D
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Whilst we bemoan the loss of industrial heritage the big picture is that we are acquiring all the advances in technology that we would ever hope to achieve by importing from those who have a comparative advantage in these technologies and in labour and other production costs. Our expertise has of course been in the very high tech, financial services etc which was very successful until recently.
The outcome of this use of comparative advantage was of course that this basically invisible sector generated lots of profits and taxes and more taxes from employees earnings which was used by poor government to fuel a burgeoning public sector with large public sector salaries and regimes which became a huge part of the import of crap/unsustainable spending and not necessarily on technologies that would benefit the nation. We waste so much money on the public sector which generates a low level of improvement of life commensurate with the money we pump into it.
If we were not under such pressure from our own governments to spend spend spend on the high street and borrow to do so and started to look at what we are doing here we may see a remergence of that engineering spirit as we actually seek to repair things as many of you on this site do - and not throw away as we are encouraged to do.
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I work in the steel industry supplying mainly into shopfitting companies. In the past 10 years i have been doing this more and more manufactuiring firms have gone. Those still around tend to buy imported systems or chromed elements from china where they have been more relaxed regarding health and safety. The biggest shopfitting companies who traditionally manufactured in house have been bought by european or american firms and have manufactuirng facilities in eastern europe. The government does nothing to help the steel industry.
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The government does nothing to help the steel industry. Or any other industry that was ever worth saving unless you count saving the bank sector and look how much it has and will cost us for the forseeable future >:( >:( >:(And the way things are going it looks like the bad old days are returning with strikes and wage cuts and tit for tat reprisails between management and workers ocurring.Looks like "Sunny Jim" has been reincarnated as gormless brown(Thats jim callaghan the last labour prime minister before teflon Tony B Liar )
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Hmm, re Toyota and Volkswagen, if I 'm not mistaken the Golf factory is virtually completely automatic, all done by robots. In this Toyota falls down, in actually using people to build things. On a cost analysis, when a car cost so little relative to a person's wages, it is uneconomic to use lots of labour to make things. However Volkswagen brings funds into the German economy, which helps the balance of imports, plus sales, service etc. I have been interested in lathes etc for some time, and they always make stuff on the cheap because that's what the consumer demands. For example a milling machine can be bought from Fleabay for £385. This is very cheap, however a chinese manufaturer was heard to say "why do you always buy the cheapest we make, and not the best ?". Answer is because if they made stuff well, and shipped it over here, the cost would be such that it would be worthwhile UK manufacturers competing. While we as a nation continue to buy the cheap Crap that comes from China, they will continue to grow strong and us weak. Sooner or later it will be nearly impossible for us to re-enter manufacturing; Far east products started off being pathetic in abilities, but they are getting better as their younger generation gets better educated and hence young designers make better, more featured products. I remember Chinese/ Japanese sayings like "don't give your enemy bullets ". Well this applies in business as well. They control many major technologies, like LCD's, components etc, and if a foreign manufacturer was threatening one of their own, I bet they would experience "difficulties in supply".
They have a plan to become the major player in technology and hence will restrict imports with artificial trade barriers, whatever, to achieve their plan. And the UK fall for it, time after time. Do you remember the enterprise zone business some years back, intended to attract foreign manufacturing to areas of Scotland ?. I remember my Dad telling me how well it was working because Chungwa were going to move a CRT plant here. However at the time LCD's were just starting to take off, the demand for CRT's was going to fall, so this was purely a tax dodge.
I think we need to change from being shop orientated to manufacturing orientated. I believe you have to automate the manufacture of low cost items, and put your effort into design, advancing our technical expertise, and producing better products, that China will have to work very hard to equal. The government will have to protect manufacturing by fair means or foul.
The UK could become a major player once again, but it will take a major change from the top down to do so.
Ken
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Things certainly have changed. Manufacturing to export has dropped dramatically. Too often i take an empty container to load machinery to export from yet another engineering company that has gone down after two or three generations, another solid brick building will be levelled resulting in ANOTHER retail carpets r us etc. park which are sprouting at an alarming rate. Our towns and their respective trades are dying a sad death.
Yes there are technological advances but it's a crying shame to lose our once great industries. Not everyone wants to sit at a desk all day. ::)
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Unfortunately there is so much pricing pressure at the moment that companies are buying whatever is the cheapest. I recently spoke with the buyer at a company that supplies Asda with it's shelving systems. He conceeded that my product was of better quality and would last longer but said he'd prefer to go with an alternative,cheaper product since it would mean Asda would reorder from him sooner the next time.
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Unfortunately there is so much pricing pressure at the moment that companies are buying whatever is the cheapest. I recently spoke with the buyer at a company that supplies Asda with it's shelving systems. He conceeded that my product was of better quality and would last longer but said he'd prefer to go with an alternative,cheaper product since it would mean Asda would reorder from him sooner the next time.
That is the short term view, the quick profit, that has helped to reduce this country to the state it is in. trouble is we are educating the consumer to buy cheapest, see all the ads for which supermarket has the most price cuts, never mind which supports most British farmers etc.
ken
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It's not just the issue of cheap labour. Although Toyota are the largest, BMW, Audi and so on do very well although their German labour force costs are high.
We used to design high quality cars. Sir Alec Issigonis designed a car which was well ahead of its time when first manufactured. As well as poor government, our manufacturing base was also hit hard by the unions. Remember Red Robbo? >:( >:(
I actually met red rob once, he gave a very informative talk about his career, and the industry of the time. Maybe I was simply hoodwinked into believing his version of events; but the guy appeared very intelligent, not particularly anti-management. He seemed to have very much been made a scape-goat, and demonized by the BL monster. The famous images of him atop a car roof calling for people to revolt had many unseen discussions over tables, via letters and memos preceeding it. Like I say, he seemed a decent bloke to me; but having said all that, were the unions allowed to get too strong, and hold too much sway? Yes they were. Did they help bugger up industry in general? Yes they did!
Second little personal thought is... I trained to the best of my abilities at Coventry Uni in Automotive Design. That included Computer / Clay modelling, Basic (and not so basic, gulp!) engineering, sketching, designing, customer / market research (dull!) to ergonomics. I graduated a couple of years ago now, and so far managed a month working, 23 months 'unemployed!' Not for the want of trying, either; there's very, very little out there, sadly.
I'm all dressed up but no where to go, really!
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Thats brought back memorys of my first job Debs, as an apprentice toolmaker back in the 70's. I was involved in the manufacture of products as diverse as baring Keep rings that weighed over five cwt used in power station applications and components parts of the Roll Royce RV211 engine. sadly the company closed down many years ago.
Probably went bust with you and the lads going down the scrappy every five minutes eh Tony ;) ;D
[/quo
Tried that and failed Steve down to two main reasons one being I couldn't fit a 5 cwt keep ring in my sanwich box and two it gave me a double hernier trying to carry it ::)
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I, like many here, am proud of my ability to 'make things'.....practical, engineering-skills, learned and refined by use and the joy of achievement.
Viewing this http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
I am minded of the wonderous pool of talent and skill that British engineering once so-proudly boasted.
"Britain: the little country that could!"
What happened......where did it all go? :'(
to me this is it (http:// http://www.clubconcorde.co.uk/images/memorabilia/concorde-spitfire.jpg)
this is what i think of as British
Doug
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Some examples of what was and is British engineering achivement............
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AavDxi8X_s[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XppE109kqI&feature=related[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rBcSZb3bE&feature=related[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC7mMBIkyGY[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2nlGN6aS8g&feature=related[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIlsOovt7kE&feature=channel[/media]
We have also bred men of this caliber;
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpdeNcH1H8A[/media]
and writers who can inspire so..........
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z399i_PksfU[/media]
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Cripin or Crispin? ;D
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I did an old-fashioned five-year apprenticeship with Saunders Roe Ltd at East Cowes, Isle of Wight. I'll never forget my first training school exercise, filing down a hunk of mild steel until it was a rectangular shape, all sides parallel, all sides within 0.001" of the specified size. I hated it. It took me weeks to pass that exercise, standing by the vice all day, file in hand.
But after five years, I and all the other 100 or so apprentices in the intake were fully trained engineers of the old school. We could make anything by then (and still can, 40 years later!) That's when I appreciated the the virtues of the tough discipline and ruthless training that we were put through. All that seems to have gone now.
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Cripin or Crispin? ;D
;D ;D ;D :y
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I did an old-fashioned five-year apprenticeship with Saunders Roe Ltd at East Cowes, Isle of Wight. I'll never forget my first training school exercise, filing down a hunk of mild steel until it was a rectangular shape, all sides parallel, all sides within 0.001" of the specified size. I hated it. It took me weeks to pass that exercise, standing by the vice all day, file in hand.
But after five years, I and all the other 100 or so apprentices in the intake were fully trained engineers of the old school. We could make anything by then (and still can, 40 years later!) That's when I appreciated the the virtues of the tough discipline and ruthless training that we were put through. All that seems to have gone now.
There's a name that fits very well into the pantheon of great British engineering concerns :y
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Saunders Roe became part of Westland (the helicopter people)
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Saunders Roe became part of Westland (the helicopter people)
Mamma mia!!!! ::) ::) ::) ;)