Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 17:31:24

Title: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 17:31:24
MOT tomorrow, any guesses what it will fail on this time! :-?

Last year it failed on a broken rear spring, its advisorys were drop links (done since) and corroded brake pipe. :(

I was confident it would pass last year but i'm not this year, for no real reason though! :-?

Keep your fingers crossed please.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 20 July 2009, 17:34:28
I guess Ljay that there will be nothin wrong and it will pass with flying colours!! :D :D :y :y :y :y :y

Always think positively if you can I say!! ;D ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: maria on 20 July 2009, 17:35:04
Hope she passes LJ :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: STMO999 on 20 July 2009, 17:46:37
Stop yapping, wenches ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: maria on 20 July 2009, 17:47:53
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Stop yapping, wenches ;D



No we wont  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: TheBoy on 20 July 2009, 17:48:09
and the corroded brake line?
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: ians on 20 July 2009, 17:49:16
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and the corroded brake line?

..long since fallen off.. ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Macduff on 20 July 2009, 17:49:25
now now children play nicely :D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 20 July 2009, 17:51:19
Quote
and the corroded brake line?


forgotton about till I refound the certificate  :-[

"slight corrosion" to be precise

sure has hell aint looking now, if it fails Ive got a couple of weeks grace

nothing I can see should be a problem  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: STMO999 on 20 July 2009, 17:51:40
Look. It's an omega. When the mechanic sees it, he will think 'holiday in Florida'. It will fail badly and be VERY expensive to repair.

Hope this helps, love, Steve ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 17:51:42
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Stop yapping, wenches ;D

Thanks for your words of support you old git!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 July 2009, 17:55:32
Get under it and wipe the brake line down and slap some grease on it (spray grease works well)  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 17:58:08
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Get under it and wipe the brake line down and slap some grease on it (spray grease works well)  :y

But he's got man swine flu!!!! :o
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 July 2009, 17:58:38
Well you could do it  :y ;D :D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: STMO999 on 20 July 2009, 17:59:24
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Quote
Get under it and wipe the brake line down and slap some grease on it (spray grease works well)  :y

But he's got man swine flu!!!! :o

Well then, you do it.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: TheBoy on 20 July 2009, 18:00:44
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Well you could do it  :y ;D :D
Just what I was thinking. Typical bloody woman expecting us blokes to do it....
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 18:01:44
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Well you could do it  :y ;D :D

I would, but why keep a swine and oink myself!? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 July 2009, 18:06:23
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Quote
Well you could do it  :y ;D :D

I would, but why keep a swine and oink myself!? ;D ;D

Lol, I guess the reply from Jimbob would be, why keep a hen and cluck yourself  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 20 July 2009, 18:07:01
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Quote
Well you could do it  :y ;D :D

I would, but why keep a swine and oink myself!? ;D ;D

In view of his condition: how apt! ;D

Finger`s tightly crossed here for a pass for the Ljay-mobile. ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 18:09:00
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Quote
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Well you could do it  :y ;D :D

I would, but why keep a swine and oink myself!? ;D ;D

Lol, I guess the reply from Jimbob would be, why keep a hen and cluck yourself  :y

Care to expand? I believe you are aquainted with that concept!
Can't think where you got the idea from! :P ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 20:06:23
Brake pipes thoroughly greased, fingers crossed! :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: TheBoy on 20 July 2009, 20:48:58
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Brake pipes thoroughly greased, fingers crossed! :y
Did you grease your nipples?
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 21:25:59
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Quote
Brake pipes thoroughly greased, fingers crossed! :y
Did you grease your nipples?

Thought you might come and do that for me TB???????? ;) :-*
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: TheBoy on 20 July 2009, 21:29:47
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Quote
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Brake pipes thoroughly greased, fingers crossed! :y
Did you grease your nipples?

Thought you might come and do that for me TB???????? ;) :-*
Only if you let on about the whereabouts of Sammy
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 21:31:57
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Quote
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Brake pipes thoroughly greased, fingers crossed! :y
Did you grease your nipples?

Thought you might come and do that for me TB???????? ;) :-*
Only if you let on about the whereabouts of Sammy

But thats win win for you surely??? ;) ;) ;)h
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Ghost on 20 July 2009, 21:54:54
It looks like new compertition for DLK.
so you two when are you going tostart wearing Pink??
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 21:57:57
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It looks like new compertition for DLK.
so you two when are you going tostart wearing Pink??

But I'm allowed to wear pink, I'm a girl!! :-*



And I'm married to Jimbob, in case it has passed you by! ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 July 2009, 22:06:44
You finished greasing it up?
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 20 July 2009, 22:08:27
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You finished greasing it up?

Yes, all nicely lubed now, thank you! ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: tunnie on 20 July 2009, 22:08:49
this year all 3 of our Omegas passed first time :D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 21 July 2009, 10:23:19
It will be going soon, so all will be revealed before too long!


fingers & toes crossed  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 21 July 2009, 10:44:46
Pob luc! :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: unlucky mark mv6 on 21 July 2009, 11:43:42
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Quote
Quote
Brake pipes thoroughly greased, fingers crossed! :y
Did you grease your nipples?

Thought you might come and do that for me TB???????? ;) :-*
I just hope husbands and wives dont see these threads while your on about greasing eath others nipples. ;D ;D :-*
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 21 July 2009, 12:29:30
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It will be going soon, so all will be revealed before too long!

.....and? :-/
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 21 July 2009, 12:48:50
SHE FAILED!!! :'( :'( :'(


'offside track rod end ball joint has excessive play' bugger bugger bugger!


Advisory items..
'offside rear tyre worn close to legal limit'
'nearside and offside rear subframe rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement'
'front nearside tyre worn on the outside edge'

she's not a happy bunny!
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 21 July 2009, 12:51:31
Well thats a nice quick easy and cheap fix
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 21 July 2009, 12:52:40
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Well thats a nice quick easy and cheap fix


I hope so....

Track rod ends
Outer joint RH (long) to '99                                     90510654       £51.00       £43.39       £31.21
 
Outer joint RH (long) from '00                                    9193099       £38.40       £32.67       £22.48
 
Outer joint LH (long) to '99                                     90510653       £51.00       £43.38       £31.22
 
Outer joint LH (long) from '00                                    9193098       £38.40       £32.67       £22.48
 
Outer joint RH (short)                                      90510652       £36.20       £30.81       £22.47
 
Outer joint LH (short)                                      90510651       £42.95       £36.55       £27.41
 
Centre tie rod assembly - exc. lowered sports chassis from '00                              90510648       £157.00       £134.25       £100.47
 
Outer tie rod assembly, RH to '99                                    90510649       £105.00       £89.28       £67.81


not quite sure what I want, any ideas?

much involeved to fit?

guess we are gonna need geometry after too
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 21 July 2009, 12:54:00
ahhh found the guide  :y

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1176846802
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Elite Pete on 21 July 2009, 12:55:14
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Quote
Quote
Brake pipes thoroughly greased, fingers crossed! :y
Did you grease your nipples?

Thought you might come and do that for me TB???????? ;) :-*
:o Sorry TB i'm closer than you, LJ i'm on my way ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 21 July 2009, 12:58:35
Right, after reading that guide the short and long pieces fit into place.

Judging by how wim struggled to adjust em, It's gonna be the full section I replace (the £60 odd quid one)

looks like a trip to vaux and machine mart for a splitter.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 21 July 2009, 13:08:47
Quote
SHE FAILED!!! :'( :'( :'(


'offside track rod end ball joint has excessive play' bugger bugger bugger!


Advisory items..
'offside rear tyre worn close to legal limit'
'nearside and offside rear subframe rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement'
'front nearside tyre worn on the outside edge'

she's not a happy bunny!

Oh bum! :'(

No massive probs. on the list though; if you? he wasn`t at death`s door it`d be a couple of hours work. ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 21 July 2009, 13:12:30
Quote
Quote
SHE FAILED!!! :'( :'( :'(


'offside track rod end ball joint has excessive play' bugger bugger bugger!


Advisory items..
'offside rear tyre worn close to legal limit'
'nearside and offside rear subframe rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement'
'front nearside tyre worn on the outside edge'

she's not a happy bunny!

Oh bum! :'(

No massive probs. on the list though; if you? he wasn`t at death`s door it`d be a couple of hours work. ;)


ive got a set of the rear bushes....but carlton fit instead  ::)  so will pick up a pair of those at some point too.

just concerened about getting a pass at the mo.


least last nights greasing sorted that issue  ;D 
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 21 July 2009, 13:52:26
It should be 90510654

If WIM managed to adjust them then they should be pretty free now.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: CaptainZok on 21 July 2009, 14:39:50
That should keep Ljay busy for an hour or two then.
Try not to ring your bell too much while she's doing the job mate.
Be a brave little soldier for a couple of hours.
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: STMO999 on 21 July 2009, 14:46:04
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That should keep Ljay busy for an hour or two then.
Try not to ring your bell too much while she's doing the job mate.
Be a brave little soldier for a couple of hours.
 ;D ;D


 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sure she could manage a cuppa if she was coming in for advice.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 21 July 2009, 15:00:54
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Quote
That should keep Ljay busy for an hour or two then.
Try not to ring your bell too much while she's doing the job mate.
Be a brave little soldier for a couple of hours.
 ;D ;D


 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sure she could manage a cuppa if she was coming in for advice.

Fix my car, look after 2 small boys, nurse a sick (in the head) husband and continue with my usual social activities whilst finding time for work.....if you stick a brush up my ass i'll sweep the floor too!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 21 July 2009, 15:14:02
Quote
That should keep Ljay busy for an hour or two then.
Try not to ring your bell too much while she's doing the job mate.
Be a brave little soldier for a couple of hours.
 ;D ;D

Sound won`t carry too well from where Ljay is going to shove-it! ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 21 July 2009, 15:16:18
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Fix my car, look after 2 small boys, nurse a sick (in the head) husband and continue with my usual social activities whilst finding time for work.....if you stick a brush up my ass i'll sweep the floor too!! ;D ;D ;D

So, just another normal day then! ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 21 July 2009, 16:11:57
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It should be 90510654

If WIM managed to adjust them then they should be pretty free now.


Already ordered the whole lot  :'(  ahh well hopefull be an easier job  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Elite Pete on 21 July 2009, 16:42:22
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Quote
Quote
That should keep Ljay busy for an hour or two then.
Try not to ring your bell too much while she's doing the job mate.
Be a brave little soldier for a couple of hours.
 ;D ;D


 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sure she could manage a cuppa if she was coming in for advice.

Fix my car, look after 2 small boys, nurse a sick (in the head) husband and continue with my usual social activities whilst finding time for work.....if you stick a lightly greased brush up my ass i'll sweep the floor too!! ;D ;D ;D
I think its called multi tasking, all women can do it so i'm told :D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: dippydave on 21 July 2009, 16:57:17
Quote
Quote
Well thats a nice quick easy and cheap fix


I hope so....

Track rod ends
Outer joint RH (long) to '99                                     90510654       £51.00       £43.39       £31.21
 
Outer joint RH (long) from '00                                    9193099       £38.40       £32.67       £22.48
 
Outer joint LH (long) to '99                                     90510653       £51.00       £43.38       £31.22
 
Outer joint LH (long) from '00                                    9193098       £38.40       £32.67       £22.48
 
Outer joint RH (short)                                      90510652       £36.20       £30.81       £22.47
 
Outer joint LH (short)                                      90510651       £42.95       £36.55       £27.41
 
Centre tie rod assembly - exc. lowered sports chassis from '00                              90510648       £157.00       £134.25       £100.47
 
Outer tie rod assembly, RH to '99                                    90510649       £105.00       £89.28       £67.81


not quite sure what I want, any ideas?

much involeved to fit?

guess we are gonna need geometry after too


I fitted new front tierods to both sides (so outer and inner joints) from GSF, parts cost about £40+vat total! I was gonna go with buypartsby but they only had one in stock. I don't know (yet!) about rear tierods... :-/

Guess if you're in a bigger hurry then the vx will have em straight away. And i found with a balljoint splitter the job wasn't too bad, and that maintenance guide bang on!  :y

Of all the jobs I did lately, it was the easiest  but definitely you will need geometry setting up after  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: dippydave on 21 July 2009, 16:58:24
Quote
Quote
It should be 90510654

If WIM managed to adjust them then they should be pretty free now.


Already ordered the whole lot  :'(  ahh well hopefull be an easier job  :y

Sorry, think my previous post was tardy. I got sidetracked with music videos!  :-[
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 21 July 2009, 19:42:47
Quote
Quote
It should be 90510654

If WIM managed to adjust them then they should be pretty free now.


Already ordered the whole lot  :'(  ahh well hopefull be an easier job  :y

Nope, just fit the bit needed.

You need to remove the offending item whilst counting the number of turns required to remove it and then fit the new one to the same amount.....at least that way the tracking should still be pretty much spot on.  :y

Fit a whole section and it will be a mile out!

If you fit the whole part, take it apart first and grease your rod  VERY well before inserting it back into the two orafices one after the other, it needs to go in the same amount for each (not to deep). Nip your nuts up (they dont need to be to tight) or you will damage your threaded rod.

Then its straight out to get your front end re-aligned
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: dippydave on 21 July 2009, 19:46:51
Quote
Quote
Quote
It should be 90510654

If WIM managed to adjust them then they should be pretty free now.


Already ordered the whole lot  :'(  ahh well hopefull be an easier job  :y

Nope, just fit the bit needed.

You need to remove the offending item whilst counting the number of turns required to remove it and then fit the new one to the same amount.....at least that way the tracking should still be pretty much spot on.  :y

Fit a whole section and it will be a mile out!

If you fit the whole part, take it apart first and grease your rod  VERY well before inserting it back into the two orafices one after the other, it needs to go in the same amount for each (not to deep). Nip your nuts up (they dont need to be to tight) or you will damage your threaded rod.

Then its straight out to get your front end re-aligned

how many innuendos in one post? Orifices? rods? inserting? Deep? ooer missus!  ;D;)

 ;D I'm very glad now I fully lubed up my rod before inserting it.
Only had my nuts minorly adjusted to get me back on the straight and narrow  ::) ::) :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: STMO999 on 21 July 2009, 20:00:00
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
It should be 90510654

If WIM managed to adjust them then they should be pretty free now.


Already ordered the whole lot  :'(  ahh well hopefull be an easier job  :y

Nope, just fit the bit needed.

You need to remove the offending item whilst counting the number of turns required to remove it and then fit the new one to the same amount.....at least that way the tracking should still be pretty much spot on.  :y

Fit a whole section and it will be a mile out!

If you fit the whole part, take it apart first and grease your rod  VERY well before inserting it back into the two orafices one after the other, it needs to go in the same amount for each (not to deep). Nip your nuts up (they dont need to be to tight) or you will damage your threaded rod.

Then its straight out to get your front end re-aligned

how many innuendos in one post? Orifices? rods? inserting? Deep? ooer missus!  ;D;)

 ;D I'm very glad now I fully lubed up my rod before inserting it.
Only had my nuts minorly adjusted to get me back on the straight and narrow  ::) ::) :y

Yes. And getting your front end re-aligned. Ouch!
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 21 July 2009, 20:12:43
Cheers Mark, that all makes sense, hopefully it still will when I have the bits in front of me!

would setting the whole lot to the same length not give roughly the same results?


Be straight, (well hopefully reasonably straight ;D ;D ;D) to a local alignment place with WIM's printout  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: LJay on 21 July 2009, 22:18:45
Jaime, I am holding you fully responsible for not coming to grease my nipples  ;) :-*
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 21 July 2009, 22:45:10
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Jaime, I am holding you fully responsible for not coming to grease my nipples  ;) :-*

 ::) I feel a OOF 'nipple-greasing meet' coming up! ;D


....now that one WILL be well attended! ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 22 July 2009, 07:43:11
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Quote
Jaime, I am holding you fully responsible for not coming to grease my nipples  ;) :-*

 ::) I feel a OOF 'nipple-greasing meet' coming up! ;D


....now that one WILL be well attended! ;)


just name the time and place  ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 July 2009, 12:51:35
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Cheers Mark, that all makes sense, hopefully it still will when I have the bits in front of me!

would setting the whole lot to the same length not give roughly the same results?


Be straight, (well hopefully reasonably straight ;D ;D ;D) to a local alignment place with WIM's printout  :y

Close ish.....just grease your rod well first....
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 22 July 2009, 13:30:45
Cheers, guessing copper grease is the best for this job?
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: TheBoy on 22 July 2009, 15:18:14
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Cheers, guessing copper grease is the best for this job?
Normal grease is what I used. Well, LM, as thats all I had.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Andy B on 22 July 2009, 15:49:41
Quote
Cheers, guessing copper grease is the best for this job?

Copper grease is what I'd use, but owts better than nowt!!  ;)  ;)  ;)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 July 2009, 16:12:23
Copper grease has no additional benefits over normal grease in such an application
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 23 July 2009, 12:23:11
Bugger Bugger Bugger Bugger

Its on back order  >:(  with no ETA

any one know where else I can get one fast?

or even a 2nd hand one?  are these ok to put it on?
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 23 July 2009, 12:26:53
some unipart bits on ebay....these any good?
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 23 July 2009, 12:31:04
is this the one I need?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-TRACK-ROD-END-OUTER-NEW_W0QQitemZ250214470549QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3a41f1d395&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1683|293%3A1|294%3A50
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 July 2009, 12:47:54
Just pop down the local factors.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 23 July 2009, 12:52:47
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Just pop down the local factors.


fair enough, sounds like a plan  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 23 July 2009, 13:10:56
well, that seems to have been good advice.....

£29 for the whole lot, and be here in 1 hour and 10 mins!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

backorder at VX cancelled  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 24 July 2009, 14:14:56
Well that job was a piece of piss once you have a ball joint splitter, what a great tool!

cheers for the guide, easy to follow  :y

now passed its mot and drives spot on, having the alignment checked anyway on an hour or so.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 24 July 2009, 14:20:50
Quote
Well that job was a piece of piss once you have a ball joint splitter, what a great tool!

cheers for the guide, easy to follow  :y

now passed its mot and drives spot on, having the alignment checked anyway on an hour or so.



Good result then, Jb :y :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 24 July 2009, 14:26:43
Quote
Quote
Well that job was a piece of piss once you have a ball joint splitter, what a great tool!

cheers for the guide, easy to follow  :y

now passed its mot and drives spot on, having the alignment checked anyway on an hour or so.



Good result then, Jb :y :y


aye, not as good as passing 1st time, but it will do  ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: dippydave on 24 July 2009, 14:33:21
nice work fella  :y.

indeed i bought a splitter for my mini a long time ago and it does the job now as well as back in 1993  :y

I hope my omega flies through it's retest once the engine's back together!

Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 24 July 2009, 16:41:08
Well thats the geometry done, back to Tony's figures, and driving spot on.

So MOT : £29.99

plus £30 for the rod, £10 on tools and £50 for geometry.


Not to bad all in all.
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: dippydave on 24 July 2009, 17:24:23
Quote
Well thats the geometry done, back to Tony's figures, and driving spot on.

So MOT : £29.99

plus £30 for the rod, £10 on tools and £50 for geometry.


Not to bad all in all.

bargain! as the full fee is over £50, it's hard to find anywhere round here for less than £40!

I take it you're leaving the tyres and rear bush for another day  ::)
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 24 July 2009, 17:31:55
(index fix)

yes, will do the bushes before long, and tyres towards the end of the year

£29.99 voucher in the paper for my usual test station  :y
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Debs. on 24 July 2009, 17:37:31
 :yTop marks Jimbob; quality work done whilst under the weather at death`s door.  ;D
Title: Re: Any Guesses?
Post by: Jimbob on 24 July 2009, 17:39:54
cheers, was made up to be able to fix the problem, get it rechecked, and the alignment done all on the same day without having previously made appts  :y  and a trip to machine mart part way through  :D