Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 27 February 2007, 00:06:21
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Our existing chimney aerial has lost a few aluminium spokes (from overweight pigeons sitting on them, I expect) and recently, whenever it rains the Freeview signal goes entirely and the analogue picture gets grainy.
I checked around aerial suppliers and found they want more than £200 to fit a new one. OK, I wouldn’t crawl onto a roof for less than two grand as I loathe heights, but I’m in a skinflint mood and Mrs Nickbat eggs me on to do a DIY job.
We live on a hill and sidewall masts are not uncommon, so that's the route I choose. Well, if I’m going to risk life and limb, I may as well splash out on te latest future-proof technology, so a quick check on the internet reveals that the dogs whatsits of TV aerials is the Televes DAT 45 (actually the 75 is the top of the range, but it’s bigger than my house). Off I trot to my nearest discount suppliers and get one of these things for £42, plus a 10ft pole and bracket. The guy there says that I really need an optional Margin Rising Device, for only an extra £9. Does it need power, I ask? No, he says, just clip it on in place of the inferior version already fitted. OK, I bought it. :-[
Get home, borrow a ladder, and fit the brackets. Drilled five 16mm holes in brickwork high up the wall (remember, I hate heights!). Aerial is big and bulky (but looks high-tech). Nearly fall off the ladder once, but succeed in getting it fixed. Rubbish reception. Try swivelling it, still no joy. In the end, I figure that maybe a nearby house is causing the poor recepton. Choose another less convenient site and go through the whole process again. Finally, I get full power on all Freeview channels…..except CBeebies and a few minor ones. This causes great consternation with my kids. Having spent hours going up and donw the ladder moving this sodding aerial about, I finally discover that the channels I can’t get (well, I get them , but they break up every couple of minutes) are all put out on Multiplex B at Crystal Palace. Apparently CP is a Group A transmitter, and the Televes is a wideband aerial.:o :o What the...? Haven’t a clue what all this means or what to do next, but then I remember that, in the loft, I have a spare cheapo high-gain aerial that I bought about 15 years ago. I take off the Televes gizmo and stick up this old thing. It's getting late in the day now, so I point it vaguely towards Crystal Palace tighten it up and go indoors and bingo! I get all Freeview channels. Job done. :y
Moral of the story? Three, actually. First, don’t buy all this high tech aerial stuff. Second, remember what you have in the loft. Finally, don’t listen to the guy behind the counter when he says that the optional Margin Rising Device does not need power (get home to find that it does!).
I now have a Televes DAT 45 plus MRD that appear to be surplus to requirements…
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you will be surprised how little some of these muppets know about their own products, i can never get the right advice nowadays. people always tend to forget about putting ariels in their loft- i did cos .....i diy and dont like hights!!
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They must charge more in your area.....but thats shocking :o £200
Im the same and dont like heights :( ....i paid areial shop £130 recently to put up new high gain areial.....worked perfectly on analogue signals.....but not on digital.....freeview with topuptv....then whinged to topuptv.....who in the end managed to update my box....and now it works fine :y
But i did have phone bill come the other day.....and it appears topuptv have a high cost number on their customer support.....it cost me over a tenner for calling them >:(
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Long, long time ago i was an apprentice T.V. engineer working in and around the Fens. A lot of my time was escorting aerials up onto the roof. i had such a job out in the loverly fen's where the wind just goes through you. Tried every thing to get a picture on a customers set with recently fitted aerial. Not a sausage. Phoned my Boss who suggested a cheap :-?er fix. So asked customer if they had any metal knitting needles. They came back with them for me. Then asked for a potato. Puzzled customer goes away and comes back with a potato. :-?
i cut the potato in half, stuck needles into potato. Bared back the some co-Ax lead. Put centre of co-Ax to one needle, outer to other needle. Connected a co-Ax plug on end of lead and put into Telly. Moved new Aeriel around and Bingo good picture. ;D
Customer delighted. Boss not, as customer told me to take top aeriel off roof.
Had to call back after a week as picture had been lost. Potato dried out. So new Mk 2 version fitted with potato in small amount of water so did not dry out!!
Who needs to climb on roofs, apart from Santa?? ;D ;D
8-)
DaveL
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Never yet seen an engineer fit a tele aerial....seen an aerial fitter do one or two (look up engineer in the dictionary!).
So the muppet who sold you the MRD did not know that it DOES need a power supply....if you cant support this (its phantom powered via the coax so it can be placed behind the tele) then fit the standard pcikup back on....
The DAT45 by the way is a VERY good aerial....
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Never yet seen an engineer fit a tele aerial....seen an aerial fitter do one or two (look up engineer in the dictionary!).
So the muppet who sold you the MRD did not know that it DOES need a power supply....if you cant support this (its phantom powered via the coax so it can be placed behind the tele) then fit the standard pcikup back on....
The DAT45 by the way is a VERY good aerial....
It does look good, but it's very directonal. And it won't pick up that Multiplex B, which is a mystery to me. Assuming all the multiplexes are sited on the same transmitter tower, why won't it get hold of that one? Mind you, with my luck, I'll probably find out that that was the one day they were working on Multiplex B and it was on reduced power. ::)
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When ITV digital was still about (pre-freeview) I bought a box and plugged it in, couldn't pick up any channels. Phoned helpline and they sent out an "engineer" to take a look (this was free at the time). The 17 year old youth went up a ladder, waved a yellow box around for 5 seconds came down and told me I needed a new high gain aerial. and it would need to be fitted on the roof (despite me telling him that local planning restrictions meant I couldn't have it on the roof).
Anyway, told him to P|ss off and decided to send the box back. As a last ditch, had a fiddle with the ancient, bent and rusty aerial in my loft (moved it about 2cm), went downstairs and got all the channels perfectly.
These companies don't employ proper professionals anymore, just a spotty youth off a training scheme (or in the case of British Gas - Ex-cons), give him a two week training course, a bit of health and safety training and stick him in a white van.
Same applies for the so called specialist shops. You get a more accurate spec and desciption in the Argos catalogue, and probably a better job fitting stuff (ie. DIY!).
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These companies don't employ proper professionals anymore, just a spotty youth
Don't get me started..
You need a "digital aerial, mate". What utter cobblers they come out with!
Bit like main dealers, really. Pay the earth to get the job done by a complete gibbon. At least the "advice" was free in this case.
Kevin
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None of where I live is allowed an external aerial but we all have them.
I have a large generic wideband which works fine, put the DAT45 for sale on here someone will buy it (think it was BoBo)
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Never yet seen an engineer fit a tele aerial....seen an aerial fitter do one or two (look up engineer in the dictionary!).
i did say in the very distant days, do not know your age but the telly's had valves, ones that glow, and colour telly was a novelty. :o
Engineer-- to wangle, contrive, get, obtain, fix, swing and finagle. Not enough telly's around at the time for specialist fitters to put aerials up. Sorry to say that you where probably not around to see them. :'(
8-)
DaveL
If you where then you have a short memory.
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You mean a TV repair man/technician......the engineer would have been the designer (although he might of got bored of his job and then set himself up as a repair man....)
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Got this response from one of the senior members on the AV forum where I posted my problem:
According to the Wolfbane predictor you'll have an analogue signal of around 64dBuV/m and a digital signal of around 47dBuV/m.
Assuming 80dB as the maximum analogue signal your Freeview tuner will tolerate, that leaves you with 80 - 64 = 16dB to play with.
Amplifying the signals by 16dB gives you 47 + 16 = 63dB of digital which is more than adequate for good reception. The minimum gain you should aim for is 53dBuV for digital, which would require an aerial with a 53 - 47 = 6dB of gain. Basically a piece of wet string!
You should use a low-gain "Group A" aerial. A normal 12dB one would be more than adequate. If you put your postcode in here: http://www.blake-uk.com/ it recommends a DMX10A. Frankly, I think the gain may be a fraction high but the only way to find out is to try it. You might need to fit an attenuator.
The aerial you have at the moment is suitable for Hemel Hempstead, having most of its gain at the higher end of the UHF band. (A wideband aerial doesn't have a flat gain curve - it's worst at the lower "Group A" end. You don't need a lot of gain but it might be pulling in unwanted signals from HH).
:o :o :o :o
I need time and a lot of brain power to digest this!
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You mean a TV repair man/technician..
At least they could fault find down to component level. Valves were expensive enough that you didn't just replace all the electronics in the box and hope for the best.
Same with cars. How many "mechanics" know how to change the seals on a brake caliper these days?
I need time and a lot of brain power to digest this!
I think he's saying that, despite what the muppet said, you've got bags of signal and don't need too high a gain antenna for want of overloading the input on your box!
I'd say still get something with plenty of gain but make it a Group A. With gain comes directivity, meaning it'll be less sensitive to reflections and signals arriving from other transmitters. As he says you can always add attenuation if you need to bring the level down.
Kevin
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Cheers, Kevin. It seems ironic that, at the moment I can't get enough signal and yet, if I get the right Group A aerial I may need an attenuator to reduce the signal. Incidentally, does an attenuator need a power source and where does it attach?
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No it doesn't need a power source....it simply fits in line of the coax and idealy as close to the receiver as possible.
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At least they could fault find down to component level. Valves were expensive enough that you didn't just replace all the electronics in the box and hope for the best.
Same with cars. How many "mechanics" know how to change the seals on a brake caliper these days?
Depends who you get.....
Titles are a very abused thing....I can do most things on a car but I do not have anything that says I am a mechanic.......I can lay bricks but have nothing to say I am a bricklayer.....and hence I dont describe myself as either...
So why do people call themselves engineers.....when they are not..........
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At least they could fault find down to component level. Valves were expensive enough that you didn't just replace all the electronics in the box and hope for the best.
Same with cars. How many "mechanics" know how to change the seals on a brake caliper these days?
Depends who you get.....
Titles are a very abused thing....I can do most things on a car but I do not have anything that says I am a mechanic.......I can lay bricks but have nothing to say I am a bricklayer.....and hence I dont describe myself as either...
So why do people call themselves engineers.....when they are not..........
I've been told I should be called a software engineer due to the type of software I write, no official qualifications but nearly 20 years experience
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I've been told I should be called a software engineer due to the type of software I write
I fail to see how anyone who programs can in any way be called an engineer. So, in my book, a 'software engineer' is one of those idiotty job descriptions given by companies that are full of pillocks playing w@nk word bingo. >:(
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I've been told I should be called a software engineer due to the type of software I write
I fail to see how anyone who programs can in any way be called an engineer. So, in my book, a 'software engineer' is one of those idiotty job descriptions given by companies that are full of pillocks playing w@nk word bingo. >:(
while i might somewhat agree that companies and industry do sometimes take diabolical liberties with titles..... I have to differ on the particular point in there.....
errr C++ embedded code, or equivalent, is a major part of any Electronics ENGINEERING degree course.
indeed the design of logic systems for digital electronics is rooted in precisely the same basic tenets of engineering principles as software only products. the same logic design , purely differing in where the code ends up being implemented, , a series of discrete devices, a more complex embedded device, or a computer... which, is really only a whole bunch of embedded and/or discrete, devices stuck together with a fancy human interfacing system . Modern Electronics engineering graduates are indeed possibly more programmer than hands on engineer in some cases... Digital systems and DSP / VLSI design being one point of skills crossover where the distinction can be very blurred indeed. The hardware guys will usually have some vague clue about analogue systems, but that's about the only way to tell....
many core code systems within a software framework are referred to as engines, as they power multiple services and procedures within that frame work.
An Engine however need not be a motive power plant, but the definition can be made to cover any device made to industrialise a process.....
as such code can indeed be engineered.
An Engineer is someone who takes the wild flights of fancy of the theoretical research scientist, and then actually makes it work, and , with any luck, do something useful.
the appliance of science, to rip off a phrase.
it matters not whether it's mechanical, optical, sonic, electronic, or logic...
(well, I'd be a little worried about crossing a bridge built entirely by some software engineers i know, but you take my point I hope.... ;) )
Max
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An Engineer is someone who takes the wild flights of fancy of the theoretical research scientist, and then actually makes it work, and , with any luck, do something useful.
Couldn't agree more. More and more stuff that was done by electron herding is going into software now too, and the principles are largely the same. Subsitiute breadboard for keyboard.
It does get on my goat when people phone "engineers" to fix their washing machine though.
Kevin
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I've been told I should be called a software engineer due to the type of software I write
I fail to see how anyone who programs can in any way be called an engineer. So, in my book, a 'software engineer' is one of those idiotty job descriptions given by companies that are full of pillocks playing w@nk word bingo. >:(
while i might somewhat agree that companies and industry do sometimes take diabolical liberties with titles..... I have to differ on the particular point in there.....
errr C++ embedded code, or equivalent, is a major part of any Electronics ENGINEERING degree course.
indeed the design of logic systems for digital electronics is rooted in precisely the same basic tenets of engineering principles as software only products. the same logic design , purely differing in where the code ends up being implemented, , a series of discrete devices, a more complex embedded device, or a computer... which, is really only a whole bunch of embedded and/or discrete, devices stuck together with a fancy human interfacing system . Modern Electronics engineering graduates are indeed possibly more programmer than hands on engineer in some cases... Digital systems and DSP / VLSI design being one point of skills crossover where the distinction can be very blurred indeed. The hardware guys will usually have some vague clue about analogue systems, but that's about the only way to tell....
many core code systems within a software framework are referred to as engines, as they power multiple services and procedures within that frame work.
An Engine however need not be a motive power plant, but the definition can be made to cover any device made to industrialise a process.....
as such code can indeed be engineered.
An Engineer is someone who takes the wild flights of fancy of the theoretical research scientist, and then actually makes it work, and , with any luck, do something useful.
the appliance of science, to rip off a phrase.
it matters not whether it's mechanical, optical, sonic, electronic, or logic...
(well, I'd be a little worried about crossing a bridge built entirely by some software engineers i know, but you take my point I hope.... ;) )
Max
Sorry, yes I was generalising to desktop and midrange software apps.
Embedded (C++? Surely assembler should be the langauge of choice ;)) and PIC type apps I would class as coming into software engineering.
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We live about 2 miles from Emley moor transmitter. I get perfect reception on the portables upstairs (digital and analogue) with a.........pound shop serial :o
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We live about 2 miles from Emley moor transmitter. I get perfect reception on the portables upstairs (digital and analogue) with a.........pound shop serial :o
Just 2 miles? I reckon you could a signal using an old KitKat wrapper! ;D ;D ;)
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An ex-colleague of mine used to live directly under the Hannington TV transmitter. About 6 months after he moved in he decided to find out why his video hadn't worked since. He found neither the TV nor the video had been connected to an aerial or each other. The tv was working quite happily with no aerial whatsoever.
I'm not sure if he successfully procreated after living in that sort of field strength but it puts the hysteria about mobile phone masts into perspective!
Kevin
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Its all a lod of 'dangle berries'. What you need is a digital chimney fitted by a kwik fit engineer who can also sort out Max's leaky engine and my gearbox.
There. problem solved. NURSE!!!!! quick.........
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Well my official job is senior programmer analyst, I have two junior programmers, and sideways from me a technical director I think - well he is not in charge of me but in charge of the team, he just says what needs doing.
We have it quite well sorted, I do all the database design and almost most of the non GUI VO2.7 code - also all of the legacy Clipper code, some MS C, and quite a bit of other stuff. The boss does the optimiser C code, the TD does the C to VC++ conversion, interactive shape design and the builds. The two juniors do most of the GUI and report writing.
I may be reording header files for both DOS and Windows environments and adjusting the source arrays from the Xbase languages to match, then next adding in a new pricing system, or adding afew new files to the database.
We do a full blown order entry and production system including machine control
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Its all a lod of 'dangle berries'. What you need is a digital chimney fitted by a kwik fit engineer who can also sort out Max's leaky engine and my gearbox.
There. problem solved. NURSE!!!!! quick.........
Hmmm, not sure about that as I have an analogue fireplace.
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that's alright, decent high sample rate A/D converters run pretty hot anyway...
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There is aof course no such thing as digital.....this is merely an assumption to simplify things....which can all to often backfire on the designer if he forgets this.
As for Electronics degrees and programming....yes ther is some and it includes assembler and machine code in an attempt to get the under-grad to understand micro architectures.....but, it only accounts for 4 or so modules out of....around 36+!
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Apparently there are 4 levels/categories of job position:
Scientist - He/she who invents a new technology/method of doing something.
Engineer - He/she who designs an application for that technology/method.
Technician - He/she who keeps that application running, installs it, builds it etc.
Operative - He/she who uses the application.
These descriptions should apply to almost every job you can do, which is why I think a lot of jobs get titled "Engineer".
Someone who installs a TV aerial is clearly a Technician. The guy who designed the aerial is the Engineer. Although, someone who has been taught the "science" behind Rf to the point where they could design a system, but happens to fit aerials could well be an engineer.
Surely though this means that the description "Domestic Engineer", should actually read "Domestic Technician", while most blokes would class as "Operative" in this case. [smiley=grin.gif]
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Apparently there are 4 levels/categories of job position:
Scientist - He/she who invents a new technology/method of doing something.
Engineer - He/she who designs an application for that technology/method.
Technician - He/she who keeps that application running, installs it, builds it etc.
Operative - He/she who uses the application.
These descriptions should apply to almost every job you can do, which is why I think a lot of jobs get titled "Engineer".
Someone who installs a TV aerial is clearly a Technician. The guy who designed the aerial is the Engineer. Although, someone who has been taught the "science" behind Rf to the point where they could design a system, but happens to fit aerials could well be an engineer.
Surely though this means that the description "Domestic Engineer", should actually read "Domestic Technician", while most blokes would class as "Operative" in this case.
i then now qualify for all the above having spent time in R/D rockets, 38 years on state of the art Flight Simulators all from learning to stick two knitting needles into a potato. And dyslexic as well!!
The best programmers that i have employed have been those with an engineering back ground and common sense. :y
8-)
DaveL
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break me, I'm a scientist then.... .... and an engr, tech, and op.
Where's me boss, I need a payrise for doing 4 jobs, and only getting paid for 1....
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Which means that the title 'washing machine engineer' and 'plumbing and heating engineer' is absolute 'dangle berries'!
There is currently a pertition with 10 downing street about the title 'engineer'.....because if you go to a bank or similar, engineers are now considered semi-skilled.....because the title has been diluted by miss use...
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In France, when you graduate from uni with an engineering degree, for the first 2 or 3 years after, you have to call yourself a Technician and only with relevent experience can you then become an engineer.
Although it pains me to suggest that the French have had a good idea, this one is good. I work in the rail industry, and you get a lot of graduate "engineers" who haven't got a clue about rail vehicle engineering. Sure, they can do a Finite Element Analysis on a crane hook, or know how to build a device to stop an egg breaking after a 10m fall, but when it comes to industry specifics . . . no chance. It probably takes 3 or 4 years of learning to understand the systems and terminology (or maybe that was just me!). I'm sure this is the same for most engineering industries and disciplines.
My old man is a qualified Heating Engineer though, in his case, he had to be properly qualified and learn the theorectical and science side of the discipline. He designs complex heating systems so should count as an Engineer. The blokes that actually put in the pipes etc. used to be called Pipe fitters (not even plumbers) but are now all . . . . you guessed it "Engineers"!
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I work in the rail industry, and you get a lot of graduate "engineers" who haven't got a clue about rail vehicle engineering.
What do you do then?
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I've gone one better than just "engineer" and am a "Engineering Consultant". You get to talk the same crap, but people listen to you!
Nowt like a grand job title!
It's not the job title that counts (unless you're talking to the bank apparently), its the money you take home that counts (and that does count with the bank!).
I have come across people who chase the status of a certain job title to make themselves feel important and don't get paid any more for the priviledge. Doh!
and to link it back to aerials. Who cares what the bloke who bolts it to the wall calls himself as long as he does a good job.