Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: ScottieMV6 on 20 August 2009, 15:57:35
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/8197370.stm
Why should anyone show this man any compassion? Why should he be allowed to spend his dying days with his family? His victims weren't allowed the same privilege!
I know one of the first people on the scene that night in Lockerbie and he will never forget it.
Just another example of how feeble, weak and terrified our government is. :-/ :-/
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Normally I'd agree 100% Scottie! :y :y
But in this case I'm not so sure. There are still doubts about whether this man (and there had to be many more involved) or the Country of Libya was either, was involved.
There were and still are legal doubts, and doubts coming from political observers, that this man had anything to do with it and could well have been a scapegoat involving the Iranians and Colonel Gaddafi of Libya.
It must never be forgotten that an Iranian airliner was shot down by a United States of America warship with the loss of around 290 lives just a few months before the Lockibie incident. It has always struck me as just too much of a coincidence that an American airliner was blown up so shortly afterwards.
There is a lot more to this story, as I am sure the security services of both the USA and Britain know, but which cannot be revealed as the evidence is not there.
So in the circumstances let this man go to his death within the next 3 months ;)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/8197370.stm
Why should anyone show this man any compassion? Why should he be allowed to spend his dying days with his family? His victims weren't allowed the same privilege!
I know one of the first people on the scene that night in Lockerbie and he will never forget it.
Just another example of how feeble, weak and terrified our government is. :-/ :-/
i remember it well - my girlfriend at the time was from a village nearby, her dad was one of te first on the scene and its not something you want to deal with - or talk about BUT this is Scotland - a hopefully tolerant, mature and compassionate country - i was proud of the decision my nation made today - we said basically to all those who want to rule by fear or terror, to all those who want an eye for an eye - we stood up and said no - we're bigger than that :y
it wasn't a UK government decision by the way, they abdicated any responsibility (in all likelihood they didnt want to get into an awkward position with the US) legally it was crystal clear and the correct decision - he's going to die in the next few months, which is why its the right decision - i'm glad i live in a country where sense and reason rule over bloodthirst and revenge
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Normally I'd agree 100% Scottie! :y :y
But in this case I'm not so sure. There are still doubts about whether this man (and there had to be many more involved) or the Country of Libya was either. There were and still are legal doubts, and doubts coming from political observers, that this man had anything to do with it and could well have been a scapegoat involving the Iranians and Colonel Cadafy of Libya.
whether he's guilty or not, the right decision was to release him, but i agree Lizzie, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding his guilt - BBC scotland had a documentary on it a while back that was quite eye-opening
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Normally I'd agree 100% Scottie! :y :y
But in this case I'm not so sure. There are still doubts about whether this man (and there had to be many more involved) or the Country of Libya was either. There were and still are legal doubts, and doubts coming from political observers, that this man had anything to do with it and could well have been a scapegoat involving the Iranians and Colonel Cadafy of Libya.
whether he's guilty or not, the right decision was to release him, but i agree Lizzie, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding his guilt - BBC scotland had a documentary on it a while back that was quite eye-opening
Yep! :y
And who in the United States has been imprisoned for this murder as I touched on in my previous post?:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight801/stories/july88crash.htm
Note the dates involved - 3rd July - 1988 ::) ::) ::) >:( >:(
The airliner was downed a day before Independence Day, and just 5 months before Lockerbie. :'( :'( :'( :-X
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Normally I'd agree 100% Scottie! :y :y
But in this case I'm not so sure. There are still doubts about whether this man (and there had to be many more involved) or the Country of Libya was either, was involved.
There were and still are legal doubts, and doubts coming from political observers, that this man had anything to do with it and could well have been a scapegoat involving the Iranians and Colonel Gaddafi of Libya.
It must never be forgotten that an Iranian airliner was shot down by a United States of America warship with the loss of around 290 lives just a few months before the Lockibie incident. It has always struck me as just too much of a coincidence that an American airliner was blown up so shortly afterwards.
There is a lot more to this story, as I am sure the security services of both the USA and Britain know, but which cannot be revealed as the evidence is not there.
So in the circumstances let this man go to his death within the next 3 months ;)
I agree with your analysis Ms. Z - and would add that there is a lot more to this matter than apparent.
Details of much of the intelligence pertinent to the origin and subsequent execution of this cowardly operation will never be released such is the labyrinthine nature of international intelligence gathering operations.
Some alternative comments;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8211596.stm
Scottie - When it mattered, I always lobbied for stricter custodial sentences as I believed - and still do - that the term handed down in case tried by a duly constituted court should be served in its entirety.
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I think there is alot more to this than meets the eye, but right or wrong its good to see someone in the Scottish legal system who has the balls to stand up to the Americans & not role over like the English legal system would have done.
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I think there is alot more to this than meets the eye, but right or wrong its good to see someone in the Scottish legal system who has the balls to stand up to the Americans & not role over like the English legal system would have done.
Indeed, and especially as I am sure the Scottish powers to be can see that the original conviction against this man can now be deemed 'unsafe' ::) ::) ;)
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I suspect that compassion is not the motive force behind this release; a back-door political deal must surely be on the cards.....`such is international Politics.::)
Back in 1910 the (then) Home Secretary, Winston Churchill memorably said that the civilisation of a society can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners.
Mr. Megrahi has been treated well during his imprisonment; I don`t see that continued humane detention (with excellent British palliative care) would be unacceptable in Winston`s eyes in this case of a convicted mass-murderer; especially so, as this is 'recent history' and there are so many relatives of the victims.
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Normally I'd agree 100% Scottie! :y :y
But in this case I'm not so sure. There are still doubts about whether this man (and there had to be many more involved) or the Country of Libya was either. There were and still are legal doubts, and doubts coming from political observers, that this man had anything to do with it and could well have been a scapegoat involving the Iranians and Colonel Cadafy of Libya.
whether he's guilty or not, the right decision was to release him, but i agree Lizzie, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding his guilt - BBC scotland had a documentary on it a while back that was quite eye-opening
Despite my being a whore of the state bj we are closer in view-point than many would think. :y
On this matter however I would, with the greatest respect, fundamentally disagree with you. If the declared tariff is not applied to its fullest extent it makes a mockery of that very judicial process.
As a result of the sloppy and politically-correct way in which criminal justice is applied in this Nation by gutless, ass-covering weasels, the said system of justice is meaningless in real terms. :y
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I suspect that compassion is not the motive force behind this release; a back-door political deal must surely be on the cards.....`such is international Politics.::)
Back in 1910 the (then) Home Secretary, Winston Churchill memorably said that the civilisation of a society can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners.
Mr. Megrahi has been treated well during his imprisonment; I don`t see that continued humane detention (with excellent British palliative care) would be unacceptable in Winston`s eyes in this case of a convicted mass-murderer; especially so, as this is 'recent history' and there are so many relatives of the victims.
In one, :y Kenny MacAskill would not have had the necessary grasp of the international ramifications of this decision.
I would have thought that clear direction was given by Whitehall on the back of finely choreographed - but affirmative - objections by the US State Department. ;) ;)
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Normally I'd agree 100% Scottie! :y :y
But in this case I'm not so sure. There are still doubts about whether this man (and there had to be many more involved) or the Country of Libya was either. There were and still are legal doubts, and doubts coming from political observers, that this man had anything to do with it and could well have been a scapegoat involving the Iranians and Colonel Cadafy of Libya.
whether he's guilty or not, the right decision was to release him, but i agree Lizzie, there is a great deal of controversy surrounding his guilt - BBC scotland had a documentary on it a while back that was quite eye-opening
Despite my being a whore of the state bj we are closer in view-point than many would think. :y
On this matter however I would, with the greatest respect, fundamentally disagree with you. If the declared tariff is not applied to its fullest extent it makes a mockery of that very judicial process.
As a result of the sloppy and politically-correct way in which criminal justice is applied in this Nation by gutless, ass-covering weasels, the said system of justice is meaningless in real terms. :y
The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction. There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.
When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.
Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months". If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity. :y :y :y :y :y
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The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction. There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.
When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.
Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months". If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity. :y :y :y :y :y
A man offered up by his own people Ms Z. The nature of the convoluted deal done to placate the US in the first instance is largely irrelevant to the central thrust of my comments regarding the effective weight of duly applied judicial decisions.
Why go through such a process, knowing that the facts of the matter were tenuous, to say the least, and pervert the decision of the extraordinary court hearing by rendering its finding in this way.
I suspect that Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was aware of the depth of this matter and co-operated in the execution of the judicial process.
The Lord might well act in mysterious ways Ms Z, but those on this earthly plane may need a more tangible form of justice.
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The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction. There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.
When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.
Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months". If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity. :y :y :y :y :y
A man offered up by his own people Ms Z. The relevance of the convoluted deal done to placate the US in the first instance is largely irrelevant to the central thrust of my comments regarding the effective weight of duly applied judicial decisions.
Why go through such a process, knowing that the facts of the matter were tenuous, to say the least, and pervert the decision of the extraordinary court hearing by rendering its finding in this way.
I suspect that Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was aware of the depth of this matter and co-operated in the execution of the judicial process.
The Lord might well act in mysterious ways Ms Z, but those on this plane may need a more tangible form of justice.
I think those on both planes have had their justice when entering God's Kingdom ;) No, it is the relatives that have the understandable problem in finding blood for blood justice. Unfortunately that will not happen now, and they should look towards their governments to find the political reasons as to why not and what happened in the first instance.
As I think we have agreed the empire of the USA is on one side, and Iran on the other, with Libya involved, probably very willingly, as they wanted revenge for the attacks on their country by USAF F111's from British bases in 1986. Libya was no friend of the west / USA / Britain, and would have no doubt had strong connections then with other anti western countries like Iran / Syria / and of course the USSR.
Why this one man was allowed to take the rap when so much of the evidence available was tenuous, probably in any other court not permissible and speculative has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start. This was not a simple act of terrorism that killed the 270+ at Lockerbie, but state acts of war that reaped this revenge attack by alien nations. It was not an act of one man, but 'soldiers' of an enemy nation, as any bombing act is during a war between states.
I just wish I could say that there will never be another Lockerbie, Strait of Hormuz, or 9/11 airplane 'bombing', but due to the current political situation, how can this be guaranteed? :'( :'( :'( More innocent lives will be lost in acts of war, as in the case of Lockerbie :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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If you read this brillliant article by Richard Littlejohn about Mandelson,you may well be left with the suspicion that he went on holiday with Gaddafis son and when he got back he rang up Scotland and told them to let the lockerbie bomber out.
He was convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity the UK has ever seen and should have spent the rest of his life in prison.If his conviction was unsafe,it should have been proven so at appeal,that is due process.What happened today makes a mockery of justice,agin. >:(
EDIT.It was not an act of war between two warring countries,it was purely an act of terrorism ,they are far from the same thing.Apart from anything else,rules of engagement in war forbid the deliberate targetting of innocent civilians.The only targets in this act were innocent civilians.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1207265/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Screaming-Lord-Mandys-nauseating-flying-circus.html
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The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction. There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.
When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.
Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months". If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity. :y :y :y :y :y
A man offered up by his own people Ms Z. The relevance of the convoluted deal done to placate the US in the first instance is largely irrelevant to the central thrust of my comments regarding the effective weight of duly applied judicial decisions.
Why go through such a process, knowing that the facts of the matter were tenuous, to say the least, and pervert the decision of the extraordinary court hearing by rendering its finding in this way.
I suspect that Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was aware of the depth of this matter and co-operated in the execution of the judicial process.
The Lord might well act in mysterious ways Ms Z, but those on this plane may need a more tangible form of justice.
I think those on both planes have had their justice when entering God's Kingdom ;) No, it is the relatives that have the understandable problem in finding blood for blood justice. Unfortunately that will not happen now, and they should look towards their governments to find the political reasons as to why not and what happened in the first instance.
As I think we have agreed the empire of the USA is on one side, and Iran on the other, with Libya involved, probably very willingly, as they wanted revenge for the attacks on their country by USAF F111's from British bases in 1986. Libya was no friend of the west / USA / Britain, and would have no doubt had strong connections then with other anti western countries like Iran / Syria / and of course the USSR.
Why this one man was allowed to take the rap when so much of the evidence available was tenuous, probably in any other court not permissible and speculative has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start. This was not a simple act of terrorism that killed the 270+ at Lockerbie, but state acts of war that reaped this revenge attack by alien nations. It was not an act of one man, but 'soldiers' of an enemy nation, as any bombing act is during a war between states.
I just wish I could say that there will never be another Lockerbie, Strait of Hormuz, or 9/11 airplane 'bombing', but due to the current political situation, how can this be guaranteed? :'( :'( :'( More innocent lives will be lost in acts of war, as in the case of Lockerbie :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
both planes
Forgive me Ms Z, I edited my original remarks from 'this plane' to 'this earthly plane' as I was speaking in the religious sense - sorry for the confusion :-[
has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start.
...both in the conviction and subsequent release of this man - in my view ;)
Kenny MacAskill as the Scottish Cabinet Secretary responsible for Justice was merely the facilitator for these clandestine groups through discrete, but never the less very clear, direction from Whitehall.
The integrity if the Scottish system of government came second to the national interest of the UK in this matter I would suggest. ;) ;)
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If you read this brillliant article by Richard Littlejohn about Mandelson,you may well be left with the suspicion that he went on holiday with Gaddafis son and when he got back he rang up Scotland and told them to let the lockerbie bomber out.
He was convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity the UK has ever seen and should have spent the rest of his life in prison.If his conviction was unsafe,it should have been proven so at appeal,that is due process.What happened today makes a mockery of justice,agin. >:(
EDIT.It was not an act of war between two warring countries,it was purely an act of terrorism ,they are far from the same thing.Apart from anything else,rules of engagement in war forbid the deliberate targetting of innocent civilians.The only targets in this act were innocent civilians.
How about Albs the innocent civilians on the Iranian airliner, or the innocent civilians killed during the F111 Libyan bombing raid, all enacted by the USA?
I will not defend terrorism, but are our own states innocent of such acts? NO is the answer, and Lockerbie, no matter how unpalatable it was and still is (yes for me as well!) was an act of retailation by countries attacked by the US. We in the west may see it as terrorism, but 'on the other side' it is seen as fighting for their freedom. If you sow the wind.................. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Let all our nations now go for jaw, jaw, jaw and not war, war, war as Churchill recommended. ;) ;)
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If you read this brillliant article by Richard Littlejohn about Mandelson,you may well be left with the suspicion that he went on holiday with Gaddafis son and when he got back he rang up Scotland and told them to let the lockerbie bomber out.
He was convicted of the worst terrorist atrocity the UK has ever seen and should have spent the rest of his life in prison.If his conviction was unsafe,it should have been proven so at appeal,that is due process.What happened today makes a mockery of justice,agin. >:(
EDIT.It was not an act of war between two warring countries,it was purely an act of terrorism ,they are far from the same thing.Apart from anything else,rules of engagement in war forbid the deliberate targetting of innocent civilians.The only targets in this act were innocent civilians.
Hey boy!!!!! - you talkin' 'bout my mate there???? ;D ;D ;D
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The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction. There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.
When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.
Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months". If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity. :y :y :y :y :y
A man offered up by his own people Ms Z. The relevance of the convoluted deal done to placate the US in the first instance is largely irrelevant to the central thrust of my comments regarding the effective weight of duly applied judicial decisions.
Why go through such a process, knowing that the facts of the matter were tenuous, to say the least, and pervert the decision of the extraordinary court hearing by rendering its finding in this way.
I suspect that Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was aware of the depth of this matter and co-operated in the execution of the judicial process.
The Lord might well act in mysterious ways Ms Z, but those on this plane may need a more tangible form of justice.
I think those on both planes have had their justice when entering God's Kingdom ;) No, it is the relatives that have the understandable problem in finding blood for blood justice. Unfortunately that will not happen now, and they should look towards their governments to find the political reasons as to why not and what happened in the first instance.
As I think we have agreed the empire of the USA is on one side, and Iran on the other, with Libya involved, probably very willingly, as they wanted revenge for the attacks on their country by USAF F111's from British bases in 1986. Libya was no friend of the west / USA / Britain, and would have no doubt had strong connections then with other anti western countries like Iran / Syria / and of course the USSR.
Why this one man was allowed to take the rap when so much of the evidence available was tenuous, probably in any other court not permissible and speculative has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start. This was not a simple act of terrorism that killed the 270+ at Lockerbie, but state acts of war that reaped this revenge attack by alien nations. It was not an act of one man, but 'soldiers' of an enemy nation, as any bombing act is during a war between states.
I just wish I could say that there will never be another Lockerbie, Strait of Hormuz, or 9/11 airplane 'bombing', but due to the current political situation, how can this be guaranteed? :'( :'( :'( More innocent lives will be lost in acts of war, as in the case of Lockerbie :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
both planes
Forgive me Ms Z, I edited my original remarks from 'this plane' to 'this earthly plane' as I was speaking in the religious sense - sorry for the confusion :-[
has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start.
...both in the conviction and subsequent release of this man - in my view ;)
Kenny MacAskill as the Scottish Cabinet Secretary responsible for Justice was merely the facilitator for these clandestine groups through discrete, but never the less very clear, direction from Whitehall.
The integrity if the Scottish system of government came second to the national interest of the UK in this matter I would suggest. ;) ;)
I would not argue with any suggestion of political involvement and the seeking of 'advantage'; it has always happened throughout modern history, will continue to take place, and certainly did transpire in this case.
This, I suggest, proves my case. This one man was never the subject of the real situation; it was states jockeying for advantage and political satisfaction, with the feelings of the deceased's relatives a last consideration. The point I am making throughout my posts is this situation in 2009 must be viewed in the context of the mid to late 1980s, and the politics, accompanied by grave hostility, between the west and the east. Only then can the circumstances of Lockerbie be understood, along with the politics since. ;) ;)
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Link to Mandleson article now added to original post,I forgot the first time. :-[ ::)
Its well worth reading. :y
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I would not argue with any suggestion of political involvement and the seeking of 'advantage'; it has always happened throughout modern history, will continue to take place, and certainly did transpire in this case.
This, I suggest, proves my case. This one man was never the subject of the real situation; it was states jockeying for advantage and political satisfaction, with the feelings of the deceased's relatives a last consideration. The point I am making throughout my posts is this situation in 2009 must be viewed in the context of the mid to late 1980s, and the politics, accompanied by grave hostility, between the west and the east. Only then can the circumstances of Lockerbie be understood, along with the politics since. ;) ;)
I would not argue with any suggestion of political involvement and the seeking of 'advantage'
Thank you Ms Z :y
The point I am making throughout my posts is this situation in 2009 must be viewed in the context of the mid to late 1980s, and the politics, accompanied by grave hostility, between the west and the east.
Within the intelligence community the time moves very slowly and matters of interest from long in the past can have a clear and present bearing on those currently being considered.
The context of any operational matter will however ultimately reflect the level of importance placed upon it by the Security establishment, and not necessarily by the Sovereign Government, :y
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megrahi's conviction was always a bit suspect and clearly he never acted alone.Scapegoat or not he was found guilty of killing 270 people,and should have spent the rest of his days behind bars under scottish jurisdiction.
He may well have prostate cancer,no one can say how much longer he has to live.
My father in law was diagnosed with prostate cancer 10 years ago and it had spread to the bones,yet he is still alive today (though not at all well now) 10 years later.
Where is the compassion for the victims and their families,as usual there is none.
Our pathetic prime minister once again has nothing to say,he cannot incriminate himself.Brown had it in his control to veto this miscarriage of justice.
Lets wait and see if the 'trade deals' that have been done behind the scenes have feathered the nest of the 'Scottish mafia' leader and his mates.
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From the horses mouth...............
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1209651/Gordon-Brown-pressure-Lockerbie-bomber-Gaddafi-son-reveals-prisoner-swap-deal-WAS-linked-oil.html
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Once again our politicians hold us, and in particular the grieving relatives, in complete contempt as they bargain for their own futures.
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From the horses mouth...............
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1209651/Gordon-Brown-pressure-Lockerbie-bomber-Gaddafi-son-reveals-prisoner-swap-deal-WAS-linked-oil.html
Would you trust Saif Gaddafi as much or more than you would trust any politician, especially one linked to a dictator? :-/ :-/
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wouldnt trust any of them in the slightest but,all the British politicians have probably got good reason to lie about it,and I dont imagine many of them can remember how to tell the truth.
Gadaffi junior on the other hand probably hasnt got reason to lie about it,shouldnt think it makes much difference to him,he has got what he wanted now.
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wouldnt trust any of them in the slightest but,all the British politicians have probably got good reason to lie about it,and I dont imagine many of them can remember how to tell the truth.
Gadaffi junior on the other hand probably hasnt got reason to lie about it,shouldnt think it makes much difference to him,he has got what he wanted now.
Fair enough Albs! :y :y
However he may want to make Britain look stupid and a double crossing entity. He may very well be seeking political power for when his father goes ;) ;)
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They seem keen to have good relations with the UK these days,since Bliar talked them into letting BP go in and drill all their oil.
I would have thought they would want to see Gormless stay in his job as long as possible,as he is so obviously corrupt and swayable,the kind of politician who ,I would imagine suits them just fine. ;)
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wouldnt trust any of them in the slightest but,all the British politicians have probably got good reason to lie about it,and I dont imagine many of them can remember how to tell the truth.
Gadaffi junior on the other hand probably hasnt got reason to lie about it,shouldnt think it makes much difference to him,he has got what he wanted now.
..as Ms Z says Albs it's a fair enough point you make, however Junior has quite a lot to gain by muddying the waters in this matter.
Much diplomatic leverage can be gained by his taking this position, in many cases valuable bargaining points can be accrued through controversy caused by malevolent allegation.
The Libyan leadership is quite adept at this kind of stunt and it generally results in weak and unconvincing governments - such as the one we have here - trying to accommodate the troublesome party by giving more than they should, simply to mute the party and any headline making material they may put out.
I state this while satisfied that it's more than likely that the Foreign Office had cocked the process up due to the usual unwelcome and incompetent interference from Downing Street.
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I think the whole episode (from when B.liar went and met Gaddafi,to Browns disappearing act last week)stinks to high heaven of a typical new Lie bore dirty and corrupt deal.I would need very convincing evidence to change my mind.The fact that Mandy met this bloke while he was on holiday makes it an almost certainty in my book. ;)
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I think the whole episode (from when B.liar went and met Gaddafi,to Browns disappearing act last week)stinks to high heaven of a typical new Lie bore dirty and corrupt deal.I would need very convincing evidence to change my mind.The fact that Mandy met this bloke while he was on holiday makes it an almost certainty in my book. ;)
even though I posted in the previous terms I'm inclined to agree with you, it's par for the course for these incompetents.
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I think they use an instructon manual confiscated from some tin pot African dictatorship. :y :y
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I think they use an instructon manual confiscated from some tin pot African dictatorship. :y :y
They probably had a hand in writing it :y
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The mockery started when this man was tried, leading to an unsafe conviction. There was no justice here, but a distortion of it to suit political requirements at the time.
When US personnel are convicted for the murder of 290 Iranians, and the true perpetrators of Lockerbie are convicted then we will have true justice that is honourable.
Now we all know that is never going to happen, so let this (scapegoat) go back to his family for the last time to die "within 3 months". If you are a Christain you will recognise that the highest power of all, God, will act out true justice to all found guilty of all crimes against humanity. :y :y :y :y :y
A man offered up by his own people Ms Z. The relevance of the convoluted deal done to placate the US in the first instance is largely irrelevant to the central thrust of my comments regarding the effective weight of duly applied judicial decisions.
Why go through such a process, knowing that the facts of the matter were tenuous, to say the least, and pervert the decision of the extraordinary court hearing by rendering its finding in this way.
I suspect that Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi was aware of the depth of this matter and co-operated in the execution of the judicial process.
The Lord might well act in mysterious ways Ms Z, but those on this plane may need a more tangible form of justice.
I think those on both planes have had their justice when entering God's Kingdom ;) No, it is the relatives that have the understandable problem in finding blood for blood justice. Unfortunately that will not happen now, and they should look towards their governments to find the political reasons as to why not and what happened in the first instance.
As I think we have agreed the empire of the USA is on one side, and Iran on the other, with Libya involved, probably very willingly, as they wanted revenge for the attacks on their country by USAF F111's from British bases in 1986. Libya was no friend of the west / USA / Britain, and would have no doubt had strong connections then with other anti western countries like Iran / Syria / and of course the USSR.
Why this one man was allowed to take the rap when so much of the evidence available was tenuous, probably in any other court not permissible and speculative has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start. This was not a simple act of terrorism that killed the 270+ at Lockerbie, but state acts of war that reaped this revenge attack by alien nations. It was not an act of one man, but 'soldiers' of an enemy nation, as any bombing act is during a war between states.
I just wish I could say that there will never be another Lockerbie, Strait of Hormuz, or 9/11 airplane 'bombing', but due to the current political situation, how can this be guaranteed? :'( :'( :'( More innocent lives will be lost in acts of war, as in the case of Lockerbie :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
both planes
Forgive me Ms Z, I edited my original remarks from 'this plane' to 'this earthly plane' as I was speaking in the religious sense - sorry for the confusion :-[
has always confirmed for me high state involvement, with no doubt MI6 and especially CIA involvement from the start.
...both in the conviction and subsequent release of this man - in my view ;)
Kenny MacAskill as the Scottish Cabinet Secretary responsible for Justice was merely the facilitator for these clandestine groups through discrete, but never the less very clear, direction from Whitehall.
The integrity if the Scottish system of government came second to the national interest of the UK in this matter I would suggest. ;) ;)
Just out of curiosity, how can belief in a 'higher plane' have any significance in either incident!
In my mind people are in charge of their own actions and should be accountable in this life and to those they have wronged, not to some unknown entity?
There is no way this man should have been released at this point, whether or not he was correctly convicted is not part of this particular debate.
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I completely agree. :y
I firmly believe it was all about oil/money/corrupt politicians.
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Whatever happened - and I am sure the bomber was either set up as a fall guy or a small part of the operation, but keep away from that for now, none of us know either way.
It definately looks like backroom meetings with Meddlesom >:(
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As I said inanother thread about this,I believe it likely that he rang up Scotland and told them to let him out. ;)
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As I said inanother thread about this,I believe it likely that he rang up Scotland and told them to let him out. ;)
It makes a mockery of our legal system. If there were sufficient grounds to believe he was innocent (or, at least not as culpable) then there should have been an appeal to get at the truth. If he was guilty, as the court originally found, he should have served the whole sentence, medical condition notwithstanding. (BTW, has Ronnie Biggs been freed yet? ::) )
Either way, a court should decide his fate.
Once a politician overrides the legal system, it sets a very dangerous precedent. >:(
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I believe that the reason Jack Straw did a very quick U turn over Biggs was because he was given the nod that the lockerbie bomber was going to be let out and he would look foolish if he kept Biggs in.
As for politicians overiding the judiciary to release convicted terrorists/murderers,just have a look how many (from both persuasions) they let out in Norn Irn. ;)
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Just out of curiosity, how can belief in a 'higher plane' have any significance in either incident!In my mind people are in charge of their own actions and should be accountable in this life and to those they have wronged, not to some unknown entity?
There is no way this man should have been released at this point, whether or not he was correctly convicted is not part of this particular debate.
...it doesnt Lj. I made reference in those terms in response to Ms. Z's comment on Christianity. I agree completely with the remainder of your comments although the safety of his conviction does bear consideration.
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I believe that the reason Jack Straw did a very quick U turn over Biggs was because he was given the nod that the lockerbie bomber was going to be let out and he would look foolish if he kept Biggs in.
As for politicians overiding the judiciary to release convicted terrorists/murderers,just have a look how many (from both persuasions) they let out in Norn Irn. ;)
Quite so, Albs. :y
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I believe that the reason Jack Straw did a very quick U turn over Biggs was because he was given the nod that the lockerbie bomber was going to be let out and he would look foolish if he kept Biggs in.
As for politicians overiding the judiciary to release convicted terrorists/murderers,just have a look how many (from both persuasions) they let out in Norn Irn. ;)
....that 'hand of history' has a lot to answer for ::) ::) :y
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I completely agree. :y
I firmly believe it was all about oil/money/corrupt politicians.
Funny you should say that, Albs. Read this: :o
http://planetgore.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODQ3MDFkODIyYzI2YTk0MTRhZDIyYjI2NjZjNWFkM2U=
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Makes very interesting reading Nick. :y
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/8197370.stm
Why should anyone show this man any compassion? Why should he be allowed to spend his dying days with his family? His victims weren't allowed the same privilege!
I know one of the first people on the scene that night in Lockerbie and he will never forget it.
Just another example of how feeble, weak and terrified our government is. :-/ :-/
i remember it well - my girlfriend at the time was from a village nearby, her dad was one of te first on the scene and its not something you want to deal with - or talk about BUT this is Scotland - a hopefully tolerant, mature and compassionate country - i was proud of the decision my nation made today - we said basically to all those who want to rule by fear or terror, to all those who want an eye for an eye - we stood up and said no - we're bigger than that :y
it wasn't a UK government decision by the way, they abdicated any responsibility (in all likelihood they didnt want to get into an awkward position with the US) legally it was crystal clear and the correct decision - he's going to die in the next few months, which is why its the right decision - i'm glad i live in a country where sense and reason rule over bloodthirst and revenge
In light of all the things which have come to light since,I was wondering if you are still convinced of this viewpoint Bannjaxx ? :-/