Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Mr Skrunts on 05 November 2009, 22:08:56
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Original-BT-iPlate-Increase-your-Internet-Speed_W0QQitemZ190323289228QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_Networking_SM?hash=item2c5026ec8c
Anyone got one or seen them in action.
Do they work?
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Forget the claim of "Increase your internet speed".
There are a number of factors that dictate what speed you get, but replacing the cheap ADSL filter you have for a proper NTE-5 faceplate will not necessarily improve anything for you.
Visit www.samknows.com and tell me what your distance is from your exchange, who your ISP is, what type of ADSL you have, and what the line stats are according to your router.
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1.5 miles P2P
1.7 miles by road.
Plus net premier account 20:1 contenstion
Modem specs/stats I think the modem has issues and if I log into it may screw up and reboot without resetting, but will be getting replaced shortly anyway.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/613768042.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Before I moved I was .45 miles P2P and got 7.2 with the same test
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They aren't a bad idea, IMHO. They won't necessarily increase your connection speed as KW says but, if your internal extension wiring is as bad as mine, it can only be a good thing to isolate it from the ADSL signal - then run cat5 cable from the master socket to your router.
Kevin
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They aren't a bad idea, IMHO. They won't necessarily increase your connection speed as KW says but, if your internal extension wiring is as bad as mine, it can only be a good thing to isolate it from the ADSL signal - then run cat5 cable from the master socket to your router.
Kevin
Just thinking the same thing.
I have snapped numerous, piggy back/double plug in ones, currenly using one with a short cable on.
In fact I think the BT engineer gave me a double face plate type, just not sure what happened to it.
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The i-plate can help, but is unnecessary unless you have really old phones.
Quite simply, the best way to get the best possible speed is
a) have no extension wiring (not always pratical) - this is the method I use
b) try to have each phone socket as a spur off the previous one, rather than a 'star' type wiring
c) use proper phone cabling, not the cheap Woolworths style DIY extension kits
d) Disconnect the ringer wire on all sockets << In effect what i-plate does
e) Quality filters - the standard BT NET5A ADSL faceplate does appear to be one of the best under most cercumstances. Yet to see a really good plug in microfilter. And lots of plugged in microfilters does reduce SNR
d) can have dramatic effects on lines with low SNR, as the ringer is in effect an aerial picking up noise and throwing on the already low SNR line.
Using techniques above, I'm currently sync'd at 7.1Mbps on a 3.5km line length, and about 2km from exchange.
Speedtests are too erratic (and utterly pointless anyway) to help with getting best from line - sync speed is the key here. If you must use speedtests, use the special BT login, as this will eliminate your ISP and their network from the equation (only valid on IPStream type products).
Lastly, don't keep rebooting/disconnecting router - this will artifically bugger up your BRAS profile, leading to a lower sync. And remember, neither sync nor throughput are in any way related to size of manhood, and isn't really **that** important at the end of the day (assuming its not really rubbish)
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Cheers for the advice.
I have a brand new installation from the pole outside my property.
Incoming cable has face plate added so no extra cable there.
Pair of BT Esprit phones,
So just the ADSL filer (4" cable type) No spurs/exstensions at all.
Modem/router and DECT base unit pluged dirsectly in filter, all in the bedroom to save clutter in the living room.
Will invest in the double face plate and see if it makes a difference. (dont think there wil be much of an improvement if any.)
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nte faceplate will include a much better filter than the poor ones supplied by ISPs/router providers.
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As said earlier, the speedtest is no use in this case. You need the sync speed. Without that, you cannot do **any** useful checks on the line's performance
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I use one of these:
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php
And then have Cat5E FTP to connect to the router
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ADSL-Faceplate-Filter-BT-NTE-5_W0QQitemZ310109174248QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_Networking_SM?hash=item4833f279e8
Am guessing this is the same thing without the branding.
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I use one of these:
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php
And then have Cat5E FTP to connect to the router
I binned my adslnation one when I found a supply of BT ones ::)
For me, the BT ones worked better (I had an awful line - high attn and low snr, and disconnects several times a day even on a legacy 512k line, but I knew the right people to get that fix :y. Unlike most of my neighbours, still suffering poor broadband ::))
I'm really pleased with both my lines, bother stability and performance - 7.1Mb sync on a 3.5km is a very good result
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I use one of these:
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php
And then have Cat5E FTP to connect to the router
Oh yes, and I keep my socket to router cable very short, and make myself from the recommended cable, which is like a flat, but thick phone cord. I did try cat6 when I had my problems, but made no difference for me (that said, its only about 30" long...
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My dad has one for his ADSL line and it improved the speed for him :y
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I use one of these:
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php
And then have Cat5E FTP to connect to the router
Router to PC RJ45
What about a better quality lead from the Filter to the modem? (or is that what you meant and I have got it wrong)
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I use one of these:
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php
And then have Cat5E FTP to connect to the router
Router to PC RJ45
What about a better quality lead from the Filter to the modem? (or is that what you meant and I have got it wrong)
i think thas what mark meant. routers often come with crap.
that said, until you get your sync speed, its all irrelevent - you may sync at 5/6mb, but exch congestion or shite isp holds back tests. only speedtester worth using is the special bt one
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I use one of these:
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php
And then have Cat5E FTP to connect to the router
I binned my adslnation one when I found a supply of BT ones ::)
For me, the BT ones worked better (I had an awful line - high attn and low snr, and disconnects several times a day even on a legacy 512k line, but I knew the right people to get that fix :y. Unlike most of my neighbours, still suffering poor broadband ::))
I'm really pleased with both my lines, bother stability and performance - 7.1Mb sync on a 3.5km is a very good result
Don't suppose you know any of the right people around this area do you TB?
I've changed to an NTE faceplate, disconnected all extensions and plugged the router into the master socket which has increased the sync from 4000ish to around 6/7000 but we still suffer many random drops daily along with poor s/n and high downstream attenuation.
The line seems to drop mainly during the hours of darkness, or sticks and has to be rebooted showing stats like the pic below.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m302/CaptainZok/dslstats.jpg
Any ideas?
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I use one of these:
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php
And then have Cat5E FTP to connect to the router
I binned my adslnation one when I found a supply of BT ones ::)
For me, the BT ones worked better (I had an awful line - high attn and low snr, and disconnects several times a day even on a legacy 512k line, but I knew the right people to get that fix :y. Unlike most of my neighbours, still suffering poor broadband ::))
I'm really pleased with both my lines, bother stability and performance - 7.1Mb sync on a 3.5km is a very good result
Don't suppose you know any of the right people around this area do you TB?
I've changed to an NTE faceplate, disconnected all extensions and plugged the router into the master socket which has increased the sync from 4000ish to around 6/7000 but we still suffer many random drops daily along with poor s/n and high downstream attenuation.
The line seems to drop mainly during the hours of darkness, or sticks and has to be rebooted showing stats like the pic below.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m302/CaptainZok/dslstats.jpg
Any ideas?
sadly, those routers dont show line error stats, so a bit of guesswork required. If you are getting multiple daily drops, the bras should sort it out, stepping speed down slowly, until it finds happy medium. If this isn't happening, isp is first port of call
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Problem being it will stick with a dead connection till it is rebooted which I think then restarts with the default training so it doesn't get any better.
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Problem being it will stick with a dead connection till it is rebooted which I think then restarts with the default training so it doesn't get any better.
hmmm, should autoreconnect. but then its cisco junk, what do you expect ;D
seriously, and ignoring my current gripes with cisco, useless idiots, that does sound hardware/firmware related. Any updates available?
is it silver (awful) or blue/black (better). May not be relevant, but lots of connections in nat table (eg, p2p heavily used) can panic those, due to low memory
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Problem being it will stick with a dead connection till it is rebooted which I think then restarts with the default training so it doesn't get any better.
hmmm, should autoreconnect. but then its cisco junk, what do you expect ;D
seriously, and ignoring my current gripes with cisco, useless idiots, that does sound hardware/firmware related. Any updates available?
is it silver (awful) or blue/black (better). May not be relevant, but lots of connections in nat table (eg, p2p heavily used) can panic those, due to low memory
Latest firmware, no p2p but his lordship does use xbox live regularly and it's one of the silver ones.
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Problem being it will stick with a dead connection till it is rebooted which I think then restarts with the default training so it doesn't get any better.
hmmm, should autoreconnect. but then its cisco junk, what do you expect ;D
seriously, and ignoring my current gripes with cisco, useless idiots, that does sound hardware/firmware related. Any updates available?
is it silver (awful) or blue/black (better). May not be relevant, but lots of connections in nat table (eg, p2p heavily used) can panic those, due to low memory
Latest firmware, no p2p but his lordship does use xbox live regularly and it's one of the silver ones.
dont use xbox live, so cant say.
as its silver, anything you can borrow to prove off router.
bt 5861s make great test routers, assuming they have 2mb flash, but no wifi.
I have a bucketload here with knackered psus
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I have a couple of old routers lying around somewhere,
USR 9001, 9106 and an old BT Voyager that's been reflashed to work with non BT providers (205?).
Any of those do?
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Ok, had a look through the modem, not actually found anything that says sys speed. But found this lot. Or should I keep looking. (highlighted what I think my be relevmt)
Modem Status
Connection Status Connected
Us Rate (Kbps) 448
Ds Rate (Kbps) 7424
US Margin 23
DS Margin 3
Trained Modulation GDMT
LOS Errors 0
DS Line Attenuation 39
US Line Attenuation 23
Peak Cell Rate 1056 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast 0
CRC Tx Fast 0
CRC Rx Interleaved 4303
CRC Tx Interleaved 64
Path Mode Interleaved
DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count 0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count 0
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sadly, those routers dont show line error stats,
DD-WRT....turns that £30 router in to something that will have (so called) experienced techie's crapping themselves.
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Ok, had a look through the modem, not actually found anything that says sys speed. But found this lot. Or should I keep looking. (highlighted what I think my be relevmt)
Modem Status
Connection Status Connected
Us Rate (Kbps) 448
Ds Rate (Kbps) 7424
US Margin 23
DS Margin 3
Trained Modulation GDMT
LOS Errors 0
DS Line Attenuation 39
US Line Attenuation 23
Peak Cell Rate 1056 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast 0
CRC Tx Fast 0
CRC Rx Interleaved 4303
CRC Tx Interleaved 64
Path Mode Interleaved
DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count 0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count 0
Forget what you've been told about sync speeds thus far Skruntie, that's not even the beginning of the battle.
If your "DS Margin" actually means SNR Ratio, then that is a crap figure my friend (the higher the number, the better).
You really need to get almost double that to even get close to what your ISP claims you will get.
Are you on fixed rate DSL, or Rate Adaptive?
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This is where I really dont have a clue.
When I had the line installed the "Installation" guy ( ::) got it right this time Mark :y ) had to go backwards and fords to a road box and the exchange.
He had to change the pairs over on something (Jamie had mentioned this in the thread I posted at the time) but he did say I was suffering a lot of line noise at the time.
I have tackled BT in the mean time but all they do is quote the statement of there is a £120 charge plus vat if we dont find a fault, and of course they are in a possition to tell me whatever they want asI dont have any equipment , trst gear or knowledge to say otherwise, and as the phone and the fact I am online every day will get the reply of "So whats the problem"
Is there any way I can perform tests and find out information myself.
Are you on fixed rate DSL, or Rate Adaptive?
Am clueless on that. :-/
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Looking back, it's odds on that you are on the Rate Adaptive service.
However, your (somewhat impressive when you first look) sync speed doesn't mean crap in the real world.
The figure you need to address is the SNR ratio, because until you improve that number you won't be going any faster in the real world no matter what your so called sync speed is.
Sync speed is just that mate, it's the speed you sync'd at the exchange with....other factors on your line will determine your actual upload/download speeds.
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but then its cisco junk, what do you expect ;D
Just as I start to respect what you say, you f**k it up with another load of crap :-/
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sadly, those routers dont show line error stats,
DD-WRT....turns that £30 router in to something that will have (so called) experienced techie's crapping themselves.
Haven't looked for a while, didn't think that run on the silver ones?
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Ok, had a look through the modem, not actually found anything that says sys speed. But found this lot. Or should I keep looking. (highlighted what I think my be relevmt)
Modem Status
Connection Status Connected
Us Rate (Kbps) 448
Ds Rate (Kbps) 7424
US Margin 23
DS Margin 3
Trained Modulation GDMT
LOS Errors 0
DS Line Attenuation 39
US Line Attenuation 23
Peak Cell Rate 1056 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast 0
CRC Tx Fast 0
CRC Rx Interleaved 4303
CRC Tx Interleaved 64
Path Mode Interleaved
DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count 0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count 0
Forget what you've been told about sync speeds thus far Skruntie, that's not even the beginning of the battle.
If your "DS Margin" actually means SNR Ratio, then that is a crap figure my friend (the higher the number, the better).
You really need to get almost double that to even get close to what your ISP claims you will get.
Are you on fixed rate DSL, or Rate Adaptive?
Think you've misunderstood this thread - it started about filters, thus its a fair assumption to assume OP was trying to achieve a better speed from line, not from the package. Therefore, sync speed is key for this discussion. This does not take in other factors, and is just concentrating on DSLAM onwards.
SNR is directly related to Sync speed. Low SNR will drop sync speed. High SNR, and sync will creep up :)
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This is where I really dont have a clue.
When I had the line installed the "Installation" guy ( ::) got it right this time Mark :y ) had to go backwards and fords to a road box and the exchange.
He had to change the pairs over on something (Jamie had mentioned this in the thread I posted at the time) but he did say I was suffering a lot of line noise at the time.
I have tackled BT in the mean time but all they do is quote the statement of there is a £120 charge plus vat if we dont find a fault, and of course they are in a possition to tell me whatever they want asI dont have any equipment , trst gear or knowledge to say otherwise, and as the phone and the fact I am online every day will get the reply of "So whats the problem"
Is there any way I can perform tests and find out information myself.
Are you on fixed rate DSL, or Rate Adaptive?
Am clueless on that. :-/
The sync looks good, the SNR looks very bad, so hopefully sync will drop to a speed where the SNR becomes acceptable. All routers seem to report this slightly different, but you're looking in region of 7-10db
You are on a MaxDSL product, thus RA.
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but then its cisco junk, what do you expect ;D
Just as I start to respect what you say, you f**k it up with another load of crap :-/
Cisco are on the shitlist this week, thats all, so I have a monk on with them.
The developers at Cisco have been smoking something they shouldn't during works time lately, and a load of the stuff simply doesn't do what its supposed to. Bloody things. This is made worse by their support structure - lets say a cat is not quite doing what you expect, Cisco won't even look at it until you rip all the config off and put their base config on. What bloody use is that >:(. And don't start me on terminal servers, else I'll rant for hours.
But I do mostly like Cisco kit, though we are seeing a fair few chassis failures on the bigger routers (12000s). The default of Fastport being off on cats always catches me out - really sods up Windows stuff, and caught me out a few days ago when I chucked a new Proliant in at my brother's place.
I am not a particular fan of their consumer stuff - dumbed down Linksys or Cisco branded (such as 800 series routers etc). Purposely, and senselessly knobbled.
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at the end of the day it may not be your end that is running slow IE
I can connect to a server in san jose califonia with 18.5meg down and .71 meg up
but whtehorse sever in canada i get 2.6 meg down and 0.72 meg up
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Off topic:
Have any of you ever had a problem with the IP profile being reset to a very low figure? My line usually syncs at about 4.5Mb, and I get an IP profile of about 4Mb. On occasion, without any line disruption detectable from my end, the IP profile drops to 135kb - just a bit better than dialup.
I've been told about the BT/ISP service agreement - if line is unstable for x minutes (45?, 75?, can't remember), IP profile is set low and doesn't revert to a useful figure until 72 hours of "stable conditions" have been detected by the BT exchange.
The Won'tHelpDesk at my ISP just will not do anything about it. I can be more or less "off the air" for 5 days or more when this happens.
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Off topic:
Have any of you ever had a problem with the IP profile being reset to a very low figure? My line usually syncs at about 4.5Mb, and I get an IP profile of about 4Mb. On occasion, without any line disruption detectable from my end, the IP profile drops to 135kb - just a bit better than dialup.
I've been told about the BT/ISP service agreement - if line is unstable for x minutes (45?, 75?, can't remember), IP profile is set low and doesn't revert to a useful figure until 72 hours of "stable conditions" have been detected by the BT exchange.
The Won'tHelpDesk at my ISP just will not do anything about it. I can be more or less "off the air" for 5 days or more when this happens.
if your isp is refusing to help, and not explain why (ie, "its bt's fault"), change isp
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Due to stupidity and ignorance in earlier days, I have an e-mail address linked to the ISP. Too many business contacts have the address for me to abandon it before I retire.
Anyway, my ISP doesn't rate too badly compared with anyone else offering a service round here.
The problem is their so-called "help desk". Let us just say that is not locally situated. The operatives just will not deviate from their script even when they are able to see from the notes that this is - the same complaint as last time,
- that I am not a first-time caller and
- that I am perfectly prepared to contact the head office and report them for being unhelpful
They have on occasion more or less reduced me to tears. :'(
But does anyone else have this problem?
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Does the sync drop down with the throughput?
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But does anyone else have this problem?
Nope, but then I've always run my own mail server rather than rely on a 3rd party to deliver what I want.
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But does anyone else have this problem?
Nope, but then I've always run my own mail server rather than rely on a 3rd party to deliver what I want.
Not that problem!
The IP profile problem! Concentrate!
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But does anyone else have this problem?
Nope, but then I've always run my own mail server rather than rely on a 3rd party to deliver what I want.
Not that problem!
The IP profile problem! Concentrate!
The post from yourself that I quoted from made no mention of an IP problem, maybe it's you that needs to wake up!
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Does the sync drop down with the throughput?
Not that I've noticed. We're quite some way from the exchange - it's either 5 miles or 5km - can't remember, and can't remember how to find out. As I said, it usually syncs at an acceptable rate for the distance, and the throughput seems to be consistent with the sync rate. But it's a bit difficult to tell, as I'm not using any particularly fast servers on a regular basis.
I think I'm getting a better sync rate than my neighbours, but I can't be sure. Daytime throughput can be very low, evenings better and nights generally good. This is surprising, as there's not a lot of commercial or industrial premises in the neighbourhood - commuterland. But then I dont know how BT assigns lines to exchange hardware - there could be some heavy users nearby that I don't know about.
But I really don't know where these alleged line interrupts are coming from. I just don't see them.
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But does anyone else have this problem?
Nope, but then I've always run my own mail server rather than rely on a 3rd party to deliver what I want.
Not that problem!
The IP profile problem! Concentrate!
The post from yourself that I quoted from made no mention of an IP problem, maybe it's you that needs to wake up!
Please accept my apologies for a hasty reaction. Please see the post two items before the one you quoted from.
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Please accept my apologies for a hasty reaction. Please see the post two items before the one you quoted from.
Apology accepted, and I thank you for having the decency to apologise.
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Does the sync drop down with the throughput?
Not that I've noticed. We're quite some way from the exchange - it's either 5 miles or 5km - can't remember, and can't remember how to find out. As I said, it usually syncs at an acceptable rate for the distance, and the throughput seems to be consistent with the sync rate. But it's a bit difficult to tell, as I'm not using any particularly fast servers on a regular basis.
I think I'm getting a better sync rate than my neighbours, but I can't be sure. Daytime throughput can be very low, evenings better and nights generally good. This is surprising, as there's not a lot of commercial or industrial premises in the neighbourhood - commuterland. But then I dont know how BT assigns lines to exchange hardware - there could be some heavy users nearby that I don't know about.
But I really don't know where these alleged line interrupts are coming from. I just don't see them.
Is the ISP a business orinented ISP? Could be they either have insufficent capacity, or traffic shape to hell during busy times (which may be daytime).
Also, if its an ISP that uses datastream or in-span handover, it could be ISP has poor capacity to exchange
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Does the sync drop down with the throughput?
Not that I've noticed. We're quite some way from the exchange - it's either 5 miles or 5km - can't remember, and can't remember how to find out. As I said, it usually syncs at an acceptable rate for the distance, and the throughput seems to be consistent with the sync rate. But it's a bit difficult to tell, as I'm not using any particularly fast servers on a regular basis.
I think I'm getting a better sync rate than my neighbours, but I can't be sure. Daytime throughput can be very low, evenings better and nights generally good. This is surprising, as there's not a lot of commercial or industrial premises in the neighbourhood - commuterland. But then I dont know how BT assigns lines to exchange hardware - there could be some heavy users nearby that I don't know about.
But I really don't know where these alleged line interrupts are coming from. I just don't see them.
Is the ISP a business orinented ISP? Could be they either have insufficent capacity, or traffic shape to hell during busy times (which may be daytime).
Also, if its an ISP that uses datastream or in-span handover, it could be ISP has poor capacity to exchange
Dunno. No great secret - it's Demon. They've been around for almost as long as I have. I suppose they are targetting the SOHO market these days, but I really couldn't say what sort of mix they have.
I shouldn't think they've got their own kit in our local exchange, so they're almost certainly using a BT wholesale service - don't know exactly how it works these days. They say that the problem is to do with my line to the exchange, and there's absolutely nothing I can do to prove them wrong. But it's strange that whenever they run any sort of line test, no problems show up.
My suspicion is that it's a problem with the internet kit at the exchange - wish I could remember the name of it. From the frequency at which this occurs - every 3 or 4 months - I'm suspicious about upgrade cycles, but since I don't know anyone else this is happening to, I can't prove it. >:(
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I used to be with Demon and they were great in the dial-up days but when ADSL was being rolled-out they couldn't even pre-register my interest with BT let alone provide the service so I went elsewhere. :(
Kevin
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Demon....abandoned them long ago due to appalling customer service.
once thus / scottish power got involved it all went down hill.
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Demon....abandoned them long ago due to appalling customer service.
once thus / scottish power got involved it all went down hill.
IIRC that was about the time when I left. ::)
Kevin
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(http://www.speedtest.net/result/618240259.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
;) ;) :y
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Does the sync drop down with the throughput?
Not that I've noticed. We're quite some way from the exchange - it's either 5 miles or 5km - can't remember, and can't remember how to find out. As I said, it usually syncs at an acceptable rate for the distance, and the throughput seems to be consistent with the sync rate. But it's a bit difficult to tell, as I'm not using any particularly fast servers on a regular basis.
I think I'm getting a better sync rate than my neighbours, but I can't be sure. Daytime throughput can be very low, evenings better and nights generally good. This is surprising, as there's not a lot of commercial or industrial premises in the neighbourhood - commuterland. But then I dont know how BT assigns lines to exchange hardware - there could be some heavy users nearby that I don't know about.
But I really don't know where these alleged line interrupts are coming from. I just don't see them.
Is the ISP a business orinented ISP? Could be they either have insufficent capacity, or traffic shape to hell during busy times (which may be daytime).
Also, if its an ISP that uses datastream or in-span handover, it could be ISP has poor capacity to exchange
Dunno. No great secret - it's Demon. They've been around for almost as long as I have. I suppose they are targetting the SOHO market these days, but I really couldn't say what sort of mix they have.
I shouldn't think they've got their own kit in our local exchange, so they're almost certainly using a BT wholesale service - don't know exactly how it works these days. They say that the problem is to do with my line to the exchange, and there's absolutely nothing I can do to prove them wrong. But it's strange that whenever they run any sort of line test, no problems show up.
My suspicion is that it's a problem with the internet kit at the exchange - wish I could remember the name of it. From the frequency at which this occurs - every 3 or 4 months - I'm suspicious about upgrade cycles, but since I don't know anyone else this is happening to, I can't prove it. >:(
If they say its the local loop, then the sync rate will drop (once you have a defined number of line errors, a retrain is done at a slower speed). So if sync remains high, but throughput drops dramatically, its likely to be an issue unrelated to local loop
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(http://www.speedtest.net/result/618240259.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
;) ;) :y
I reach a slightly higher upload speed (2Mbit), and pay £12 per month for the privelege as I'm an O2 customer.
Some here though wil be prepared to rubbish O2/Be without even having had first hand experience ;)