Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: STMO999 on 01 January 2010, 21:04:56
-
In the light of Richie's thread and the recent execution of a British passport carrying person in China, I would be interested to know your views on capital punishment.
Our government, red or blue, always claim to represent the voting public. With regards to labour, this claim was obviously rubbished by the recent EU treaty. Almost everyone I speak to would support the death penalty if there was irrefutable evidence of child killing or murder with a sexual motive.
Since I started the thread, I feel I must tell you that I would fully support the death penalty for most murders, whether premeditated, or done in a drunken rage as in Richie's thread.
Perhaps it might not be so bad if murderers were encarcerated for their natural lives, or even if prison was a really harsh place to be. But I am truly worried that we are allowing people to literally get away with murder, and it can only get worse.
-
There are alot of punishments that SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK, the death penalty & hard labour to mention a few. Public stocks should be another :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
-
In the light of Richie's thread and the recent execution of a British passport carrying person in China, I would be interested to know your views on capital punishment.
Our government, red or blue, always claim to represent the voting public. With regards to labour, this claim was obviously rubbished by the recent EU treaty. Almost everyone I speak to would support the death penalty if there was irrefutable evidence of child killing or murder with a sexual motive.
Since I started the thread, I feel I must tell you that I would fully support the death penalty for most murders, whether premeditated, or done in a drunken rage as in Richie's thread.
Perhaps it might not be so bad if murderers were encarcerated for their natural lives, or even if prison was a really harsh place to be. But I am truly worried that we are allowing people to literally get away with murder, and it can only get worse.
Murder is murder. You cannot differentiate
-
In the light of Richie's thread and the recent execution of a British passport carrying person in China, I would be interested to know your views on capital punishment.
Our government, red or blue, always claim to represent the voting public. With regards to labour, this claim was obviously rubbished by the recent EU treaty. Almost everyone I speak to would support the death penalty if there was irrefutable evidence of child killing or murder with a sexual motive.
Since I started the thread, I feel I must tell you that I would fully support the death penalty for most murders, whether premeditated, or done in a drunken rage as in Richie's thread.
Perhaps it might not be so bad if murderers were encarcerated for their natural lives, or even if prison was a really harsh place to be. But I am truly worried that we are allowing people to literally get away with murder, and it can only get worse.
Murder is murder. You cannot differentiate
You are, of course, correct.
-
Bring Back Hanging. The testing etc is far better now than in the times of Pierpoint
-
Totally agree with the death penalty for murder,and for theft they should cut a finger off,like i beleive they do in some arab countries,that should make them think twice,unless you are totally brainless. ::)
-
Bring Back Hanging. The testing etc is far better now than in the times of the French Revolution
Dont know if I'd go for hanging, I wouldn't want a public spectacle, revenge kind of thing. Just matter-of-fact, cold-blooded injection.
-
Bring Back Hanging. The testing etc is far better now than in the times of the French Revolution
Dont know if I'd go for hanging, I wouldn't want a public spectacle, revenge kind of thing. Just matter-of-fact, cold-blooded injection.
Don't know being honest, think the Public Spectacle as you say, would make the Murderer feel frightened, embarrassed etc...
I got mixed up with the Guiltotine in my first reply :-[ but still that would be a good tool :y
-
I have studied the Death Penalty since I was in school, and I can tell you a lot, and I mean a lot. It does not solve anything and it is just THE STATES REVENGE.
Ask yourselves this question, how many people do you think America executed l;ast year?
Also,. the papers say that guy in China was executed by lethal injection, I can guarantee that he was actually executed by a 9mm pistol, hence the reason they would not let his body be repatriated
Any questions you want on this subject them forward them to me,
-
Ministers are ment to represent the public opinion BUT the death penalty is a vote of consionce???
If you asked a plumber to put a radiator under a window and he said I can't do that as its against my opinion, you would sack him!!! They/he are there to represent you, not have their OWN opinion. They are just scared of the minority, the magority don't speak up. The minority always do, minority rules I'm afraid!!! :'(
-
I say the electric chair,and they ought to let the families of those murdered switch it on. ;)
-
In the light of Richie's thread and the recent execution of a British passport carrying person in China, I would be interested to know your views on capital punishment.
Our government, red or blue, always claim to represent the voting public. With regards to labour, this claim was obviously rubbished by the recent EU treaty. Almost everyone I speak to would support the death penalty if there was irrefutable evidence of child killing or murder with a sexual motive.
Since I started the thread, I feel I must tell you that I would fully support the death penalty for most murders, whether premeditated, or done in a drunken rage as in Richie's thread.
Perhaps it might not be so bad if murderers were encarcerated for their natural lives, or even if prison was a really harsh place to be. But I am truly worried that we are allowing people to literally get away with murder, and it can only get worse.
Murder is murder. You cannot differentiate
I concur that the taking of another Human life is not the usual 'done thing'.....
I also concur that the British Justice System leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to some decisions that are made, however....
What about (and probably another debate altogether) Euthanasia? Ending someones life when they want it ended and are unable to continue in a happy and natural way.
If Elizabeth Fritzle was able to kill Josef.
Just two examples.
Murder is not simply Murder.
-
There are alot of punishments that SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK, the death penalty & hard labour to mention a few. Public stocks should be another :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
:y :y :y :y :y :y
-
I have studied the Death Penalty since I was in school, and I can tell you a lot, and I mean a lot. It does not solve anything and it is just THE STATES REVENGE.
Ask yourselves this question, how many people do you think America executed l;ast year?
Also,. the papers say that guy in China was executed by lethal injection, I can guarantee that he was actually executed by a 9mm pistol, hence the reason they would not let his body be repatriated
Any questions you want on this subject them forward them to me,
But would not the actual fear of the Death Penalty whichever form put the Criminal off committing the offense in the first place?
If so surely that would be worth it?
-
I have studied the Death Penalty since I was in school, and I can tell you a lot, and I mean a lot. It does not solve anything and it is just THE STATES REVENGE.
Ask yourselves this question, how many people do you think America executed l;ast year?
Also,. the papers say that guy in China was executed by lethal injection, I can guarantee that he was actually executed by a 9mm pistol, hence the reason they would not let his body be repatriated
Any questions you want on this subject them forward them to me,
But would not the actual fear of the Death Penalty whichever form put the Criminal off committing the offense in the first place?
If so surely that would be worth it?
Do you think that someone actually stops to think, wait, I may get hanged for this, I think not,
-
I have studied the Death Penalty since I was in school, and I can tell you a lot, and I mean a lot. It does not solve anything and it is just THE STATES REVENGE.
Ask yourselves this question, how many people do you think America executed l;ast year?
Also,. the papers say that guy in China was executed by lethal injection, I can guarantee that he was actually executed by a 9mm pistol, hence the reason they would not let his body be repatriated
Any questions you want on this subject them forward them to me,
I dont see 9mm pistol as cruel or barbaric. It's quick.
-
I have studied the Death Penalty since I was in school, and I can tell you a lot, and I mean a lot. It does not solve anything and it is just THE STATES REVENGE.
Ask yourselves this question, how many people do you think America executed l;ast year?
Also,. the papers say that guy in China was executed by lethal injection, I can guarantee that he was actually executed by a 9mm pistol, hence the reason they would not let his body be repatriated
Any questions you want on this subject them forward them to me,
I dont see 9mm pistol as cruel or barbaric. It's quick.
What thought did the murderer give to his victim????
-
I have studied the Death Penalty since I was in school, and I can tell you a lot, and I mean a lot. It does not solve anything and it is just THE STATES REVENGE.
Ask yourselves this question, how many people do you think America executed l;ast year?
Also,. the papers say that guy in China was executed by lethal injection, I can guarantee that he was actually executed by a 9mm pistol, hence the reason they would not let his body be repatriated
Any questions you want on this subject them forward them to me,
That is a "lethal injection", a lead bullet injection :y And, yes, the death penalty should be back in :y as with corporal punishment, most of the idiots around are cowardly imbeciles anyway, they would think twice then :y
-
well 2 mates have been inside in the last couple of years.
1. when i went to see him after his 2nd week inside he was depressed, 2 weeks later he had cheered up, playing badmington, pool, nice meals 6 months later he was full of beans, loved it in there said how healthy he felt, had lost weight and has since been in 3 times since. and has no worries of going in again.
2. other mate did 2 years, said it was ok apart from the odd nutter in there, he also lost weight and had a healthy lifestyle in there. hes been out about 2 years,still doing the crime he did when he went in but he alos got a trade in there. hes now a corgi registered gas fitter for the gas board and is now a supervisor earning good money and has his own flat.
prison should be punishment, rehabilitaion does not work, prison is not a deterent but nothing more than a holiday for those who get caught. there should not be parole,a sentance should be what it states. life should mean life. anyone can behave inside just for remission, places like china send out a very strong message to people and i beleive that it is the right way to go, you commit a crime you lose your rights to freedom or possibly your life dependant on the crime you have commited and i would support it under certain circumstances.
-
well 2 mates have been inside in the last couple of years.
1. when i went to see him after his 2nd week inside he was depressed, 2 weeks later he had cheered up, playing badmington, pool, nice meals 6 months later he was full of beans, loved it in there said how healthy he felt, had lost weight and has since been in 3 times since. and has no worries of going in again.
2. other mate did 2 years, said it was ok apart from the odd nutter in there, he also lost weight and had a healthy lifestyle in there. hes been out about 2 years,still doing the crime he did when he went in but he alos got a trade in there. hes now a corgi registered gas fitter for the gas board and is now a supervisor earning good money and has his own flat.
prison should be punishment, rehabilitaion does not work, prison is not a deterent but nothing more than a holiday for those who get caught. there should not be parole,a sentance should be what it states. life should mean life. anyone can behave inside just for remission, places like china send out a very strong message to people and i beleive that it is the right way to go, you commit a crime you lose your rights to freedom or possibly your life dependant on the crime you have commited and i would support it under certain circumstances.
Your 100 percent right!!!! :y
-
I have studied the Death Penalty since I was in school, and I can tell you a lot, and I mean a lot. It does not solve anything and it is just THE STATES REVENGE.
Ask yourselves this question, how many people do you think America executed l;ast year?
Also,. the papers say that guy in China was executed by lethal injection, I can guarantee that he was actually executed by a 9mm pistol, hence the reason they would not let his body be repatriated
Any questions you want on this subject them forward them to me,
That is a "lethal injection", a lead bullet injection :y And, yes, the death penalty should be back in :y as with corporal punishment, most of the idiots around are cowardly imbeciles anyway, they would think twice then :y
Stupid as this country is, H&S would outlaw that due to the fact it's lead. :-X
-
I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much
There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.
Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.
The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims. To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.
The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
-
My thinking was/is: If we push really hard to have capital punishment reinstated, then it may have the desirable effect of making the powers that be realise just how apalled we are at the punishment being meted out at present. They might, by way of a compromise, toughen up on sentencing and change the 'holiday camp' atmosphere in most prisons.
The prison service always gets the thin end of the wedge when it comes to budgetting. Privatisation is a joke, there is no sense of duty when you are not qualified and are on the miniimum wage.
-
I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much
There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.
Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.
The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims. To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.
The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’
The eye for an eye I agree with and closure for the family I agree with. So in that case justice is, get these scum bags of this planet, put them down like you would a rabid dog!!
-
I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much
There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.
Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.
The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims. To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.
The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’
The eye for an eye I agree with and closure for the family I agree with. So in that case justice is, get these scum bags of this planet, put them down like you would a rabid dog!!
The irrefutable evidence alluded to by the OP (ST) will always provide the stumbling block for those charged with applying capital punishment as not all persons accused and subsequently convicted of capital crimes are indeed guilty. Miscarriages of justice have been made and will continue to be made.
Whether or not convicted persons are lawfully killed by the state judicial process is moot as that process will, by in large, fail to provide a deterrent to the crime thus allowing such crimes to be committed on a continuing basis.
-
my mate said drugs are so easy to get inside because the guards want an easy life,they turn a blind eye to most things, while there out of there heads there not fighting or giving the gaurds any grief.
-
We need to be careful what punishments are there for what laws.
We can end up with draconian for not hurting anyone and leniant for massive damage.
As to killing - too grey, too difficult for me to judge. But some killers should be killed and others I don't know.
-
[quote
author=73706C6F7474000 link=1262379896/24#24
date=1262385473]I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much
There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.
Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.
The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims. To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.
The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’
The eye for an eye I agree with and closure for the family I agree with. So in that case justice is, get these scum bags of this planet, put them down like you would a rabid dog!!
The irrefutable evidence alluded to by the OP (ST) will always provide the stumbling block for those charged with applying capital punishment as not all persons accused and subsequently convicted of capital crimes are indeed guilty. Miscarriages of justice have been made and will continue to be made.
Whether or not convicted persons are lawfully killed by the state judicial process is moot as that process will, by in large, fail to provide a deterrent to the crime thus allowing such crimes to be committed on a continuing basis.
[/quote]
Sorry but that is the usual minorty tosh that is banded about, the majoriy want capital punishment brought back. But minority rules!!!Sad that the majority don't speak up!! Its not PC is it??????
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
-
Capital punishment is always going to be frought with difficulty and danger as regards its legal descisions and, ultimately, its mistakes.
Despite the evidential advances with the likes of DNA profiling and similar, the whole system remains, potentially, flawed by its over reliance on civil libertarians and an over abundance of persons in positions of critical descision making who are still intent on a life peerage or similar, rather than grab a bull by the horns.
Personally, I have no problems with the eye for an eye analogy but it remains a one shot deal. If its wrong, its too late to get the pads out and have everyone close by 'to stand clear - charging' as per Casualty each week....
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).
-
Capital punishment is always going to be frought with difficulty and danger as regards its legal descisions and, ultimately, its mistakes.
Despite the evidential advances with the likes of DNA profiling and similar, the whole system remains, potentially, flawed by its over reliance on civil libertarians and an over abundance of persons in positions of critical descision making who are still intent on a life peerage or similar, rather than grab a bull by the horns.
Personally, I have no problems with the eye for an eye analogy but it remains a one shot deal. If its wrong, its too late to get the pads out and have everyone close by 'to stand clear - charging' as per Casualty each week....
Let them rot for a few years as they do in the states, that is the the time to prove their innocence. If they can't prove and witness support dosen't happen then put them down!
-
Perhaps murderers could be sent out to test Taliban resistance on the front line in Afghanistan.
Just a thought. ;)
-
[quote
author=73706C6F7474000 link=1262379896/24#24
date=1262385473]I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much
There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.
Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.
The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims. To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.
The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’
The eye for an eye I agree with and closure for the family I agree with. So in that case justice is, get these scum bags of this planet, put them down like you would a rabid dog!!
The irrefutable evidence alluded to by the OP (ST) will always provide the stumbling block for those charged with applying capital punishment as not all persons accused and subsequently convicted of capital crimes are indeed guilty. Miscarriages of justice have been made and will continue to be made.
Whether or not convicted persons are lawfully killed by the state judicial process is moot as that process will, by in large, fail to provide a deterrent to the crime thus allowing such crimes to be committed on a continuing basis.
Sorry but that is the usual minorty tosh that is banded about, the majoriy want capital punishment brought back. But minority rules!!!Sad that the majority don't speak up!! Its not PC is it??????
[/quote]
minorty tosh
Forgive me Splott, but having dealt with countless matters during my long service where people were the victims of murder, premeditated or not, I feel that my argument merits slightly more than to be considered tosh
the majority want capital punishment brought back
Is that the majority here on the OOF or a majority in the country as a whole and should it be, can you provide a basis for that assertion. If it were to be reinstated at the behest of the 'majority' would it be any the more a deterrent to such capital crimes?
Furthermore I can assure you that I'm far from 'PC'
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
I can agree with that K - well reasoned :y :y
-
Capital punishment is always going to be frought with difficulty and danger as regards its legal descisions and, ultimately, its mistakes.
Despite the evidential advances with the likes of DNA profiling and similar, the whole system remains, potentially, flawed by its over reliance on civil libertarians and an over abundance of persons in positions of critical descision making who are still intent on a life peerage or similar, rather than grab a bull by the horns.
Personally, I have no problems with the eye for an eye analogy but it remains a one shot deal. If its wrong, its too late to get the pads out and have everyone close by 'to stand clear - charging' as per Casualty each week....
...and many of us found that to be the deal breaker H :( :(
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).
What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).
What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.
What about the multiple murderes? That are only now being found out?
If they were dead and buried after the first one then the numerous other unfortunate cases now surfacing would, sadly, be swept into oblivion as there was no 'trial' to apportion blame....
Think Peter Tobin and Robert Black.....
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).
What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.
-
The laws are made and administered by people who are not ever likely to encounter the crimes that they make and administer these laws for so why should they care!!!
Maybe if a few Peers, Judges, MPs, Royalty or their family members and the like were to be killed in a drive by shooting, raped and murdered, mugged/beaten for their pension monies etc. etc., then maybe they would begin to think like the average man/women in the street does, but what is the likelihood of that ever happening???
I myself believe that what we have now obviously doesn't work so.........................?
-
Whilst I am convinced that it is wrong for individuals to kill each other, I'm not sure the same applies to the State. However, our current inability to determine right from wrong and convict people reliably leads me to oppose re-introduction of capital punishment.
-
The laws are made and administered by people who are not ever likely to encounter the crimes that they make and administer these laws for so why should they care!!!
Maybe if a few Peers, Judges, MPs, Royalty or their family members and the like were to be killed in a drive by shooting, raped and murdered, mugged/beaten for their pension monies etc. etc., then maybe they would begin to think like the average man/women in the street does, but what is the likelihood of that ever happening???
I myself believe that what we have now obviously doesn't work so.........................?
People who have experienced crime first-hand are often the worst ones to decide on just punishments. Penalties need to be arrived at by level-headed groups of people who are un-tainted by personal emotions like that.
-
The laws are made and administered by people who are not ever likely to encounter the crimes that they make and administer these laws for so why should they care!!!
Maybe if a few Peers, Judges, MPs, Royalty or their family members and the like were to be killed in a drive by shooting, raped and murdered, mugged/beaten for their pension monies etc. etc., then maybe they would begin to think like the average man/women in the street does, but what is the likelihood of that ever happening???
I myself believe that what we have now obviously doesn't work so.........................?
People who have experienced crime first-hand are often the worst ones to decide on just punishments. Penalties need to be arrived at by level-headed groups of people who are un-tainted by personal emotions like that.
You mean completely remote from and unfamiliar with reality?
Like 99.9% of the general public?
:-X
-
[quote
author=73706C6F7474000 link=1262379896/24#24
date=1262385473]I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much
There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.
Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.
The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims. To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.
The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’
The eye for an eye I agree with and closure for the family I agree with. So in that case justice is, get these scum bags of this planet, put them down like you would a rabid dog!!
The irrefutable evidence alluded to by the OP (ST) will always provide the stumbling block for those charged with applying capital punishment as not all persons accused and subsequently convicted of capital crimes are indeed guilty. Miscarriages of justice have been made and will continue to be made.
Whether or not convicted persons are lawfully killed by the state judicial process is moot as that process will, by in large, fail to provide a deterrent to the crime thus allowing such crimes to be committed on a continuing basis.
Sorry but that is the usual minorty tosh that is banded about, the majoriy want capital punishment brought back. But minority rules!!!Sad that the majority don't speak up!! Its not PC is it??????
minorty tosh
Forgive me Splott, but having dealt with countless matters during my long service where people were the victims of murder, premeditated or not, I feel that my argument merits slightly more consideration than to be considered tosh
the majority want capital punishment brought back
Is that the majority here on the OOF or a majority in the country as a whole and should it be, can you provide a basis for that assertion. If it were to be reinstated at the behest of the 'majority' would it be any the more a deterrent to such capital crimes?
Furthermore I can assure you that I'm far from 'PC'[/quote]
Sorry that your involved with this sort of thing but it does not change my opinion. Remember the the majority don't speak up, they just moan. The minority get up and support their caurse. A sad fact of life and going by what you say you have to abide by these rules. If the law changes then may be you would have a different opinion.
-
The laws are made and administered by people who are not ever likely to encounter the crimes that they make and administer these laws for so why should they care!!!
Maybe if a few Peers, Judges, MPs, Royalty or their family members and the like were to be killed in a drive by shooting, raped and murdered, mugged/beaten for their pension monies etc. etc., then maybe they would begin to think like the average man/women in the street does, but what is the likelihood of that ever happening???
I myself believe that what we have now obviously doesn't work so.........................?
People who have experienced crime first-hand are often the worst ones to decide on just punishments. Penalties need to be arrived at by level-headed groups of people who are un-tainted by personal emotions like that.
So your saying that the sort of people that are best equipped to dish out laws and punishments are those that have no everyday understanding or encounters with them!!! If so then God help us all :(.
-
Just suppose we reinstate capital punishment for "murder". Is that the only offence that should be punished that way?
Treason used to be a capital offence. So for that matter, was "arson in Her Majesty's shipyards".
Someone mentioned "peodos" - should offences committed by paedophiles, regardless of whether they actually resulted in the death of the victim, be punishable by death? And what about rape? It's nasty crime, inadequately dealt with by our 21st century society, but the false accusation rate, the prosecution rate and, ultimately, the 5% conviction rate do not give one confidence that justice is being done.
So what about causing death by driving while drunk? Yeah, hang 'em. Causing death by driving dangerously?
Kidnapping? There's a nasty one - used to be a federal capital offence in the USA - take your victim over the state line, and its the chair/rope/gas chamber/firing sqad for you, Bud. And of course there's drug dealing. As we all know, many countries in the far east, including China, execute criminals for this heinous deed, even when they are clearly mentally unbalanced.
Armed robbery? Just think of the trauma the victims suffer. Common assault? Drunk and disorderly?
And then we come to sheep stealing. Not so much of it about these days (at, least we don't hear much about it), but definitely a capital offence.
And while we're at it, why not bring back public executions - go down well in Saudi Arabia, I understand. Along with the occasional stoning, for light relief. Got a great idea - demolish Marble Atrch and re-erect the Tyburn Tree. Restore the Old Bailey to what used to be there - Newgate Prison. And while we're at it, bring back the Marshalsea for those who can't pay their gas bills.
Where can we go next - trial by combat? I know - the ducking stool for parking offences - what larks!
Include me out.
-
Can we just bring back deportation to Austrailia for stealing an Hovis loaf please??? I could with a free holiday with an ocean voyage and beach sports... ;D ;D ;)
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).
What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.
What about the multiple murderes? That are only now being found out?
If they were dead and buried after the first one then the numerous other unfortunate cases now surfacing would, sadly, be swept into oblivion as there was no 'trial' to apportion blame....
Think Peter Tobin and Robert Black.....
Another way of looking at that is they may not have had a chance to murder again.
-
I have always been against Capital punishment ,but I must admit that I have been wavering in recent times.I have always thought it to be a sign of an uncivilised society, but we have to a degree allowed things to slide so far in the other direction that the criminal element is growing bigger and serious crime recieving more lenient punishment and this is making us a less civilised society.The thin blue line became stretched to way past breaking point a long time ago.
I think Kevin Wood has suggested the correct answer to the question.Life should mean life,unless you are proven to have been wrongly convicted.
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).
What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.
What about the multiple murderes? That are only now being found out?
If they were dead and buried after the first one then the numerous other unfortunate cases now surfacing would, sadly, be swept into oblivion as there was no 'trial' to apportion blame....
Think Peter Tobin and Robert Black.....
Another way of looking at that is they may not have had a chance to murder again.
Another way of looking at that is they may not have had a chance to murder again.
That's a fair enough point S but it doesn't necessarily mean that others who either commit or are thinking about committing such acts will be deterred from doing so by the threat of capital punishment.
In many countries where capital punishment is applied in response to the commission of qualifying offences, there seems to be a distinct lack of deterrent in such a threat as people continue to commit these offences. This fact is worth exploring as those countries - certain states within the USA, China, and various in the Middle East - seem to apply the penalty with rigor and determination.
No, capital punishment is an ineffective deterrent in that respect, I'm more inclined to agree however with your initial comments regarding a stricter prison regime with full tariff sentences being served with less opportunity for early release based on the severity of the offence.
What an interesting thread S, thank you 8-) :y :y
-
It's funny you should raise these points Zulu. As I was posting last night the missus had a 'Worst criminals' or some such tosh on the telly. These guys were absolute madmen, running amok full of drugs. No deterrent would have made them think twice.
-
I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much
There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.
Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.
The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims. To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.
The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’
definitely.. :y crime and punishment is really a science and easy conclusions are proven to bring nothing..
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
well said :y
-
my mate said drugs are so easy to get inside because the guards want an easy life,they turn a blind eye to most things, while there out of there heads there not fighting or giving the gaurds any grief.
yep.. the weakest point of system .. human factor..
-
Capital punishment is always going to be frought with difficulty and danger as regards its legal descisions and, ultimately, its mistakes.
Despite the evidential advances with the likes of DNA profiling and similar, the whole system remains, potentially, flawed by its over reliance on civil libertarians and an over abundance of persons in positions of critical descision making who are still intent on a life peerage or similar, rather than grab a bull by the horns.
Personally, I have no problems with the eye for an eye analogy but it remains a one shot deal. If its wrong, its too late to get the pads out and have everyone close by 'to stand clear - charging' as per Casualty each week....
:y
-
Perhaps murderers could be sent out to test Taliban resistance on the front line in Afghanistan.
Just a thought. ;)
;D ;D
thats really a brilliant idea.. we have a saying "one stone , two birds" ;D ;D :y :y :y
-
I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.
I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.
We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.
Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to. >:(
Kevin
Hey the victtims don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).
What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.
What about the multiple murderes? That are only now being found out?
If they were dead and buried after the first one then the numerous other unfortunate cases now surfacing would, sadly, be swept into oblivion as there was no 'trial' to apportion blame....
Think Peter Tobin and Robert Black.....
if proven Russians way of solving is very practical : one shot in head .. not necessary to loose time..
-
It's funny you should raise these points Zulu. As I was posting last night the missus had a 'Worst criminals' or some such tosh on the telly. These guys were absolute madmen, running amok full of drugs. No deterrent would have made them think twice.
A case in point S :y
-
STMO, it was really an interesting thread.. :y :y
-
It's funny you should raise these points Zulu. As I was posting last night the missus had a 'Worst criminals' or some such tosh on the telly. These guys were absolute madmen, running amok full of drugs. No deterrent would have made them think twice.
A case in point S :y
Although it can of course be argued that regardless of the deterrent factor the world would be a better place without them. ;)
-
Until such time that it can be proved that there are no bent coppers who can make up confessions, bent judges and jurors who can be bought etc. then there is no way capital punishment is acceptable in this country IMHO.
There have been too many cases of people being convicted of murder and then found innocent years later and released with a "sorry" from the govt. How would the govt. have said sorry to these people had they been executed? Stefan Kliszko springs to mind.
Just my tuppence worth on this subject. :y
-
It's funny you should raise these points Zulu. As I was posting last night the missus had a 'Worst criminals' or some such tosh on the telly. These guys were absolute madmen, running amok full of drugs. No deterrent would have made them think twice.
A case in point S :y
Although it can of course be argued that regardless of the deterrent factor the world would be a better place without them. ;)
Ahh we knudge another aspect of this vexed question and one with which - unfortunately - I'm very familiar :( :(
-
Until such time that it can be proved that there are no bent coppers who can make up confessions, bent judges and jurors who can be bought etc. then there is no way capital punishment is acceptable in this country IMHO.
There have been too many cases of people being convicted of murder and then found innocent years later and released with a "sorry" from the govt. How would the govt. have said sorry to these people had they been executed? Stefan Kliszko springs to mind.
Just my tuppence worth on this subject. :y
Don't know about the bent coppers and biassed/bribed judges, but the reliance of modern courts on expert witnesses doesn't exactly inspure confidence that justice will be done. Some of these experts offer a valuable insight into technical aspect of a case, but some are just career-building academics or are just in it for the money. :( :( :(
-
Why the death penalty cannot EVER be restored (Reason 1)
JANUARY 1, 2010:
PENNSYLVANIA:
Death-row inmate accepts plea deal, could be free soon
After spending 17 1/2 years in prison, Ernest Simmons, a death-row inmate who steadily maintained his innocence and was granted a new trial after revelations of prosecutorial misconduct, is expected to walk free this year.
Mr. Simmons, 52, was convicted of the 1992 murder of Anna Knaze, an 80-year-old woman who was found strangled and beaten in her Johnstown home. He once came within four days of his scheduled execution.
His retrial was scheduled to begin Jan. 25, but yesterday he pleaded no contest to 3rd-degree murder. Cambria County Judge Timothy Creany resentenced him to 5 to 10 years in prison and a 10-year probationary term.
Because he has already served a longer sentence, Mr. Simmons will be credited with time served. The Pennsylvania Board of Probation and Parole will determine his release date.
"Depending on how fast the board operates, we're hopeful that he'll be out by the holidays next year," said Kenneth Sottile, one of Mr. Simmons' lawyers. "He's probably looking at 6 months."
Mr. Simmons was awarded a new trial in 2005, after substantial misconduct on the part of prosecutors and police was uncovered.
When police searched for a suspect in Ms. Knaze's murder, they had quickly honed in on Mr. Simmons, a Philadelphia native who in 1984 had admitted to attacking and robbing 2 elderly men.
But an investigation by student reporters at the Innocence Institute of Point Park University revealed that police and prosecutors had hidden evidence favorable to Mr. Simmons, such as hair tests that did not link him to the crime and tapes of secretly recorded phone conversations during which Mr. Simmons repeatedly declared his innocence to his girlfriend. During an interview with student reporters, the prosecution's key witness recanted her witness identification.
"It would have been an entirely different proceeding had we had all the information that was withheld," said Mr. Sottile, who was also Mr. Simmons' lawyer during his original trial.
When he was offered the plea bargain, Mr. Simmons believed the most practical thing to do was to end the protracted judicial process, said Mr. Sottile.
"Ernie's maintained his innocence adamantly since day one," he said. "Had they not permitted him to enter a plea of no contest, he wouldn't have pled."
Cambria County District Attorney Patrick Kiniry said the commonwealth agreed to the plea partly because of the difficulty of reassembling witnesses after a 17-year lapse.
"When this opportunity arose, we decided to put closure to the case, to end all the appeals," he said. "Hopefully this provides closure for the family [of Ms. Knaze] as well."