Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: theolodian on 23 March 2007, 23:32:55
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Must have been Diesel in the roundabout earlier today. Got moderately sideways in heavy traffic. Thankfully no one next to me. TC was having a snooze. ::)
Was it really slippery today, or does Diesel stick to your tires all day? Was skittish all day after that. I know I have too much camber, but it wasn't that wet. Or is it b/c there was only a little water?
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Must have been Diesel in the roundabout earlier today. Got moderately sideways in heavy traffic. Thankfully no one next to me. TC was having a snooze. ::)
Was it really slippery today, or does Diesel stick to your tires all day? Was skittish all day after that. I know I have too much camber, but it wasn't that wet. Or is it b/c there was only a little water?
Mine will go slightly side ways on a greasey round-about despite TC.
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I dont have TC control :( ....but i can get the back wheels spining if i really try :y
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I dont have TC control :( ....
Lucky you! ;) You're not missing out on anything.
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I don't have to try to get the TC to come on. I just forget that it's RWD for a moment and the TC is cutting in.
This was a bit more than 1/4 lock slide.
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I don't have to try to get the TC to come on. I just forget that it's RWD for a moment and the TC is cutting in.
This was a bit more than 1/4 lock slide.
I know what you mean....my merc has TC...and thats a diesel....was always flashing the TC light when i took off too fast on wet roads...and i didnt need corners to get it to go it.....plulling away from the straight and turbo on wet roads ment flashing light!
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I don't have to try to get the TC to come on. I just forget that it's RWD for a moment and the TC is cutting in.
This was a bit more than 1/4 lock slide.
I know what you mean....my merc has TC...and thats a diesel....was always flashing the TC light when i took off too fast on wet roads...and i didnt need corners to get it to go it.....plulling away from the straight and turbo on wet roads ment flashing light!
Turning onto a busy road it's a sure thing. Especially if there are those big yellow stripes.
If you have time to load up the rear suspension it's usually allright. That's what was so unusual about that roundabout, was smooth and the suspension was loaded. Then it just snapped, not uncontrollably though.
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In fairness to the TC, your shocks are part shot, so the TC has to work harder. On later TC's, it tries to apply brake to spinning wheel before reducing engine power, so if you are still giving it a boot load, it will step out a bit.
I regularly test mine (::)) and find in normal conditions, the TC does what its supposed to do. On those roundabouts next to petrol stations - the ones which always have spilt diesel (being a biker, you get very aware of petrol stations near roundabouts!) - once the slide has started, there is little that TC can do - traction is lost, and its no longer a power/braking issue.
The Omega TC is one of the best I have driven - though most of my other TC experience is in BMWs which have awful TC - and it does exactly what it says on the tin, ie its a safety feature, like ABS, that hopefully will never come on. If it does come on, you are driving beyond the capabilities of the car in those conditions...
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The Omega TC is one of the best I have driven -
It's the only TC car I've driven (well, driven and provoked!) and I'd hate to drive a bad one in that case!
It just seems to cut the power dead regardless of the scenario, speed, heaviness of right foot, etc. Granted it'd be difficult to crash with it on, which is its' main role, I guess, but I find I can sort out wheel spin much cleaner with the TC off.
It's a shame it appears to have been seen by VX as a cheap alternative to a LSD. I guess LSDs can bite the unweary but are much better at putting the power down when traction's marginal.
How does an Omega drive with an LSD? I'm almost considering an upgrade!
Kevin
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pah the Senny does not have TC and it has an LSD :D .... that is some serious fun in the wet!
Had a very sideways moment on the roundabout on Jc10 of the m40, (2 am) was very fun... only doing 30mph around the roundabout but i was pi$$ing it down.
Tried to go sideways again at the next one, spun it though 720 degrees :o :o :o
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That's the problem with LSDs. You have less of the annoying moments when the inside wheel spins and spoils the fun, but when it does let go it's with both wheels and sideways!
Kevin
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the funny thing was i was not in a hurry, just going as normal and felt the back end go.... was a bit of fun. But I need to learn how to control it :-[
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the funny thing was i was not in a hurry, just going as normal and felt the back end go.... was a bit of fun. But I need to learn how to control it embarrassed
Yes. I put a LSD in the Westfield about a year ago. Whilst it gave a vast improvement in ability to put the power down in most cases, it needs more care at times, especially in the wet. Had a few interesting roundabout moments at first. It's a bit easier to collect up when it slides than a Senator, I'd imagine!
Kevin
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As MarkDTM would say, the Westfield does not have a boat anchor up front!! ;D
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As MarkDTM would say, the Westfield does not have a boat anchor up front!! Grin
Well, only 2/3rds of a boat anchor!
Kevin
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pah the Senny does not have TC and it has an LSD :D .... that is some serious fun in the wet!
Had a very sideways moment on the roundabout on Jc10 of the m40, (2 am) was very fun... only doing 30mph around the roundabout but i was pi$$ing it down.
Tried to go sideways again at the next one, spun it though 720 degrees :o :o :o
You span it twice? It's a good job the law didn't catch you ::)
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pah the Senny does not have TC and it has an LSD :D .... that is some serious fun in the wet!
Had a very sideways moment on the roundabout on Jc10 of the m40, (2 am) was very fun... only doing 30mph around the roundabout but i was pi$$ing it down.
Tried to go sideways again at the next one, spun it though 720 degrees :o :o :o
You span it twice? It's a good job the law didn't catch you ::)
No worries there! They don't have cameras for spinning out. :P
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pah the Senny does not have TC and it has an LSD :D .... that is some serious fun in the wet!
Had a very sideways moment on the roundabout on Jc10 of the m40, (2 am) was very fun... only doing 30mph around the roundabout but i was pi$$ing it down.
Tried to go sideways again at the next one, spun it though 720 degrees :o :o :o
You span it twice? It's a good job the law didn't catch you ::)
No worries there! They don't have cameras for spinning out. :P
;D ;D ;D
It was the day before the cambelt party, i just dropped MaxV6 back home and was on my way back, it was around 1.30 am in the morning, i had the fun sideways moment, (no one around) then at the next roundabout i thought i would try it again, as last time it happened by accident.
Good look around, not a car in sight in any direction. I would have NOT attempted this during the day, I gave it too much power and it kicked down before i wanted it to.. kicked the back end out and i spun. It was seriously wet and continued another 360 before i ended up in between the exit to go on the A43 and the joining traffic :o :o (ie me facing the sign with directions)
Luckly i stopped cm's before the bumper would hit the post.... needless to say i drove away (slowly) feeling very ashamed :-[
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pah the Senny does not have TC and it has an LSD :D .... that is some serious fun in the wet!
Had a very sideways moment on the roundabout on Jc10 of the m40, (2 am) was very fun... only doing 30mph around the roundabout but i was pi$$ing it down.
Tried to go sideways again at the next one, spun it though 720 degrees :o :o :o
You span it twice? It's a good job the law didn't catch you ::)
No worries there! They don't have cameras for spinning out. :P
Don' forget the mark 1-A eyeball with manual pen and notebook datalogger.... ;) :D
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pah the Senny does not have TC and it has an LSD :D .... that is some serious fun in the wet!
Had a very sideways moment on the roundabout on Jc10 of the m40, (2 am) was very fun... only doing 30mph around the roundabout but i was pi$$ing it down.
Tried to go sideways again at the next one, spun it though 720 degrees :o :o :o
You span it twice? It's a good job the law didn't catch you ::)
No worries there! They don't have cameras for spinning out. :P
Don' forget the mark 1-A eyeball with manual pen and notebook datalogger.... ;) :D
Those have almost all been decomissioned. ::)
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pah the Senny does not have TC and it has an LSD :D .... that is some serious fun in the wet!
Had a very sideways moment on the roundabout on Jc10 of the m40, (2 am) was very fun... only doing 30mph around the roundabout but i was pi$$ing it down.
Tried to go sideways again at the next one, spun it though 720 degrees :o :o :o
You span it twice? It's a good job the law didn't catch you ::)
No worries there! They don't have cameras for spinning out. :P
Yet!
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When the back end of the Senny breaks away it is usually pretty violent. It is not progressive, it just goes.... this can be either fun, or scary! ;)
Stick 2 large bags of sand in the boot (one each side). It does help.
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I find it's utter crap, when I had junk tyres on the rear (which were fitted when I bought the car) it was always trying to go sideways in the wet with the slightest provocation. TC didn't help much at all. It's a lot better now with Michelin Pilots on, but I find it cuts way too much power and the engine's not torquey enough to pull once the TC has done its bit. I've found myself dipping the clutch on occasion to get the revs back up and give me some grunt!
Personally I prefer having the damn thing switched off whenever I either want to do some spirited driving, or even just a fast standing start -- the power cutting absolutely kills it here, much better just modulating the wheelspin with your right foot.
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I find it's utter crap, when I had junk tyres on the rear (which were fitted when I bought the car) it was always trying to go sideways in the wet with the slightest provocation. TC didn't help much at all. It's a lot better now with Michelin Pilots on, but I find it cuts way too much power and the engine's not torquey enough to pull once the TC has done its bit. I've found myself dipping the clutch on occasion to get the revs back up and give me some grunt!
Personally I prefer having the damn thing switched off whenever I either want to do some spirited driving, or even just a fast standing start -- the power cutting absolutely kills it here, much better just modulating the wheelspin with your right foot.
Exactly what I was trying to say. It's like it's a feature designed to pacify insurance companies by shutting the engine down if it thinks you're about to do something stupid. It makes you want to avoid getting anywhere near the limit of traction because it's so unpleasant when it cuts in! Maybe that was the intended result.
At least we can be grateful there's a button to turn it off!
Kevin
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I find it's utter crap, when I had junk tyres on the rear (which were fitted when I bought the car) it was always trying to go sideways in the wet with the slightest provocation. TC didn't help much at all. It's a lot better now with Michelin Pilots on, but I find it cuts way too much power and the engine's not torquey enough to pull once the TC has done its bit. I've found myself dipping the clutch on occasion to get the revs back up and give me some grunt!
Personally I prefer having the damn thing switched off whenever I either want to do some spirited driving, or even just a fast standing start -- the power cutting absolutely kills it here, much better just modulating the wheelspin with your right foot.
Exactly what I was trying to say. It's like it's a feature designed to pacify insurance companies by shutting the engine down if it thinks you're about to do something stupid. It makes you want to avoid getting anywhere near the limit of traction because it's so unpleasant when it cuts in! Maybe that was the intended result.
At least we can be grateful there's a button to turn it off!
Kevin
DBW's are muuuuch better. Only thing these can do is cut fuel, it doesn't have any other options. Very unpleasant.
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DBW's are muuuuch better.
Mine is DBW, and I was just wondering to myself if the DBW uses a different strategy. It's still not nice. Feels like the throttle is slammed shut, then opened again until the slip starts, then slammed shut again... repeat until driver lifts off.
I must admit I've not noticed any braking of the slipping wheel - maybe it actually does this subtlely enough..?
I'd still rather have an LSD.
Kevin
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I find it's utter crap, when I had junk tyres on the rear (which were fitted when I bought the car) it was always trying to go sideways in the wet with the slightest provocation. TC didn't help much at all. It's a lot better now with Michelin Pilots on, but I find it cuts way too much power and the engine's not torquey enough to pull once the TC has done its bit. I've found myself dipping the clutch on occasion to get the revs back up and give me some grunt!
Personally I prefer having the damn thing switched off whenever I either want to do some spirited driving, or even just a fast standing start -- the power cutting absolutely kills it here, much better just modulating the wheelspin with your right foot.
As said previously, it only comes on when exceeding the abilities of the car in those conditions. Shit tyres reduce that capability. Even the Pilots aren't particularly good, way too hard.
Remember its TC, not ESP/ESC. Therefore not designed to correct a loose back end (though should reduce the chances of it happening).
Also, remember, its a safety feature, like ABS, that should never come on - doing so is driving beyond the cars capabilities in those conditions.
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I'd still rather have an LSD.
Maybe so, but no car manufacturer would now fit LSD without electronic traction or stability on standard cars, as LSD can break away very quickly.
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Come to think of it F/L TC is better behaved than PF/L TC.
Would still prefer auto braked wheel though.
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Also, remember, its a safety feature, like ABS, that should never come on - doing so is driving beyond the cars capabilities in those conditions.
Well the car's capabilities aren't very high then ;)
If you want a quick launch a little wheel slip is good, as long as you don't let the traction completely go and can modulate the throttle it's far quicker than trying to launch with the TC. Personally it's got me into more trouble than it's got me out of, it just blindly and harshly cuts power and in some scenarios that's the worst thing to do. At least DSC/ESP or whatever actually straightens the car up for you, and in my experience is far less intrusive (although that may be partly down to with only having experienced DSC with a far more torquey engine that doesn't bog down the way the V6 does when the power is momentarily cut).
I often have it switched off, IMO it's actually safer that way!
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Also, remember, its a safety feature, like ABS, that should never come on - doing so is driving beyond the cars capabilities in those conditions.
Well the car's capabilities aren't very high then ;)
If you want a quick launch a little wheel slip is good, as long as you don't let the traction completely go and can modulate the throttle it's far quicker than trying to launch with the TC. Personally it's got me into more trouble than it's got me out of, it just blindly and harshly cuts power and in some scenarios that's the worst thing to do. At least DSC/ESP or whatever actually straightens the car up for you, and in my experience is far less intrusive (although that may be partly down to with only having experienced DSC with a far more torquey engine that doesn't bog down the way the V6 does when the power is momentarily cut).
I often have it switched off, IMO it's actually safer that way!
I tried explaining that a small wheelspin was the best way to a policeman once ::)
The key to TC, is if it starts to cut in, feather the throttle at that point, not bury it harder. I find TC does allow an element of wheelspin first on my MV6 and on my project 2.5 I had last summer (that had new shit tyres on).
I have to say, either you are on too much gas, or your tyres aren't up to the job (Pilots far from the best for spirited driving imho).
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during one of my more stupid moments(trips awa from big vauxhalls)(looks lime it will have to be a late omega then a monaro next as ive run out of rwd vauxhalls now )
i had a renault(cough choke ) sefrane.
piss weak 12 v 3.0 litre front wheel drive , with serious understeer problems. lift throttle at any petrol station rounder bout and would head towards the nearest entrance fully sideways,that used to scare oncoming traffic lol
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One of my old work colleagues keeps buying Safranes. Bloody awful cars. Sorry.
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One of my old work colleagues keeps buying Safranes. Bloody awful cars. Sorry.
People COULD say that about us - but we know better
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Also, remember, its a safety feature, like ABS, that should never come on - doing so is driving beyond the cars capabilities in those conditions.
Well the car's capabilities aren't very high then ;)
If you want a quick launch a little wheel slip is good, as long as you don't let the traction completely go and can modulate the throttle it's far quicker than trying to launch with the TC. Personally it's got me into more trouble than it's got me out of, it just blindly and harshly cuts power and in some scenarios that's the worst thing to do. At least DSC/ESP or whatever actually straightens the car up for you, and in my experience is far less intrusive (although that may be partly down to with only having experienced DSC with a far more torquey engine that doesn't bog down the way the V6 does when the power is momentarily cut).
I often have it switched off, IMO it's actually safer that way!
I tried explaining that a small wheelspin was the best way to a policeman once ::)
The key to TC, is if it starts to cut in, feather the throttle at that point, not bury it harder. I find TC does allow an element of wheelspin first on my MV6 and on my project 2.5 I had last summer (that had new shit tyres on).
I have to say, either you are on too much gas, or your tyres aren't up to the job (Pilots far from the best for spirited driving imho).
You get a little bit of wheelspin at first, but after that it seems determined to kill things regardless of what you do with the throttle. Tyres aren't the issue, I can accelerate quicker with TC off than on, both with utter sh1te "Fortuna" tyres and with the Michelin Pilots. Personally I think the Pilots are a great tyre for high mileage use, they're not as good as Eagle F1s or Bridgestone S-02s (which are really hard to find now anyway) but neither do they need replaced after 5,000 miles of spirited driving. I don't mind using soft high performance tyres on my "proper" car as it won't be doing anywhere near as much mileage and is all about the fun factor, but it doesn't make sense on the Omega.
Personally I still think it's a waste of time on a reasonably well balanced, heavy RWD car that doesn't have all that much power. Unless you're deliberately provoking it or just being silly (or have sh1te tyres ::)) it's unlikely to break into power oversteer. In fact I find it's just as likely to understeer during normal driving, in which case TC isn't going to do squat anyway -- if they really cared about safety they could have fitted DSC which does help in almost all loss-of-control scenarios. It was certainly around in 1998 when other safety stuff like side airbags were introduced with the mini facelift.
IMO the only reason they fit TC is because it's almost free -- all the sensors are already there for the ABS, and the power reduction just needs some software changes in the ECU. The only extra thing is the rear wheel braking functionality which is integrated into the ABS unit AFAIK.
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Also, remember, its a safety feature, like ABS, that should never come on - doing so is driving beyond the cars capabilities in those conditions.
Well the car's capabilities aren't very high then ;)
If you want a quick launch a little wheel slip is good, as long as you don't let the traction completely go and can modulate the throttle it's far quicker than trying to launch with the TC. Personally it's got me into more trouble than it's got me out of, it just blindly and harshly cuts power and in some scenarios that's the worst thing to do. At least DSC/ESP or whatever actually straightens the car up for you, and in my experience is far less intrusive (although that may be partly down to with only having experienced DSC with a far more torquey engine that doesn't bog down the way the V6 does when the power is momentarily cut).
I often have it switched off, IMO it's actually safer that way!
I tried explaining that a small wheelspin was the best way to a policeman once ::)
The key to TC, is if it starts to cut in, feather the throttle at that point, not bury it harder. I find TC does allow an element of wheelspin first on my MV6 and on my project 2.5 I had last summer (that had new shit tyres on).
I have to say, either you are on too much gas, or your tyres aren't up to the job (Pilots far from the best for spirited driving imho).
You get a little bit of wheelspin at first, but after that it seems determined to kill things regardless of what you do with the throttle. Tyres aren't the issue, I can accelerate quicker with TC off than on, both with utter sh1te "Fortuna" tyres and with the Michelin Pilots. Personally I think the Pilots are a great tyre for high mileage use, they're not as good as Eagle F1s or Bridgestone S-02s (which are really hard to find now anyway) but neither do they need replaced after 5,000 miles of spirited driving. I don't mind using soft high performance tyres on my "proper" car as it won't be doing anywhere near as much mileage and is all about the fun factor, but it doesn't make sense on the Omega.
Personally I still think it's a waste of time on a reasonably well balanced, heavy RWD car that doesn't have all that much power. Unless you're deliberately provoking it or just being silly (or have sh1te tyres ::)) it's unlikely to break into power oversteer. In fact I find it's just as likely to understeer during normal driving, in which case TC isn't going to do squat anyway -- if they really cared about safety they could have fitted DSC which does help in almost all loss-of-control scenarios. It was certainly around in 1998 when other safety stuff like side airbags were introduced with the mini facelift.
IMO the only reason they fit TC is because it's almost free -- all the sensors are already there for the ABS, and the power reduction just needs some software changes in the ECU. The only extra thing is the rear wheel braking functionality which is integrated into the ABS unit AFAIK.
TC isn't there to get a decent launch. Its their to stop inexperienced drivers getting their RWD to do a 180 spin in bad conditions...
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TC isn't there to get a decent launch. Its their to stop inexperienced drivers getting their RWD to do a 180 spin in bad conditions...
LOL yeah I have no doubt of that! However it's not very good at that either IMO being that it will cut power when a rear wheel starts to slip under power. More "intelligent" stability control systems actually brake the best wheel(s) to get the car pointing straight again, even if that's a non-driven wheel.
I can see where TC may help out those not used to RWD and being silly with the gas, but personally I don't find much benefit in it at all.
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TC isn't there to get a decent launch. Its their to stop inexperienced drivers getting their RWD to do a 180 spin in bad conditions...
LOL yeah I have no doubt of that! However it's not very good at that either IMO being that it will cut power when a rear wheel starts to slip under power. More "intelligent" stability control systems actually brake the best wheel(s) to get the car pointing straight again, even if that's a non-driven wheel.
I can see where TC may help out those not used to RWD and being silly with the gas, but personally I don't find much benefit in it at all.
remember, it applies brake to spinning wheel first, then if you haven't stopped wheelspin, it cuts a pair of pots....
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TC isn't there to get a decent launch. Its their to stop inexperienced drivers getting their RWD to do a 180 spin in bad conditions...
LOL yeah I have no doubt of that! However it's not very good at that either IMO being that it will cut power when a rear wheel starts to slip under power. More "intelligent" stability control systems actually brake the best wheel(s) to get the car pointing straight again, even if that's a non-driven wheel.
I can see where TC may help out those not used to RWD and being silly with the gas, but personally I don't find much benefit in it at all.
remember, it applies brake to spinning wheel first, then if you haven't stopped wheelspin, it cuts a pair of pots....
and was designed on a budget more than a couple of days before yesterday...... :o