Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: alfie on 31 January 2010, 13:55:21
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Hi everyone,now we all know that Britain is not the same country that we all grew up in,but do you think its better or worse.
I myself think that its all gone downhill fast since this wonderful goverment we have opened our borders to all this so called aslyum seekers,who have little to offer the UK but take everythink offered.
We are fighting a war that we will never win,and had no business to be there in the first place.
We have MPs who have their snouts in the trough,if it was anyone else they would have been charged with fraud.
We have coppers who will fine you for blowing your nose in your own car.
etc etc etc etc,
I,m sure some of you will support me,while others will shoot me down,but everyone is intitled to their own thoughts aren,t they.
Alfie
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Country has gone downhill to the point of no return i fear >:(
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I would agree with you that Britain has changed a lot since we were younger. That change has brought some good things e.g. longer life expectancy, better technology (fast Internet,100's of channels of TV). Beeter cars, better equipped houses and so on.
On the downside the petty officialdom and "get as much out of the workers" society leaves a lot to be desired. That was one reason for us moving to Spain. It takes some getting used to the siesta mentality for example. Everywhere shuts from 2 till 5.30 i'sh. The family goes home and eats together. Some of the other work practices also take some getting used to too.
Spain has its own problems and isn't a paradise by any means. I find it interesting that the Spanish still view Britain as a very, very wealthy country(which it is) and by inference so are all its subjects!
There are 702 mayors or officials in Spain waiting trial for corruption- some involving absolutely astronomical amounts of money syphoned out of the system. That makes Uk MP's misdemeanors look chicken feed.
Asylum seekers. Don't think that Britain is the only country in the EU with a problem either. There are hundreds of poor souls leaving Africa every day by whatever means and ending up in Malta, Spain and Italy. Those countries are creaking under the strain too.
I used to think that the very best day to ever have lived was the current day but like you I don't anymore. Maybe the golden age was the late 80's early 90's.
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Alfie - are you going to be responsible for starting another massive thread? ;D ;D ;D
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Hundreds of new Officials, Quangos and 'Executive Agencies'.....hundreds of new and unnecessary laws; seemingly outlawing 'everything' (except the recidivist criminal).....lazy and ineffective policing....the punitive taxation and criminalisation of the motorist.....lazy and indulgent parenting.....the view that it`s always "society`s fault" or "coz of where they wuz brought up"......"can`t take a job coz of me benefits".
The view that working with your hands is for 'mugs' and/or the stupid. >:(
Hospitals/Surgeries run for the convenience of the management.....`too many of those too! ::)
Local councils talk about 'their' money; it isn`t, it`s 'OURS'!
Why is strong profanity so acceptable to use on British Tv.....many people find it very-offensive and uncomfortable to have to endure in mixed company.....such Tv. has also helped make the use of the 'F' word almost totally normal out in public streets/shops and by children too!!!!!!.....and they have the nerve to tell us about showing them "respect"....innit! >:(
Standing up for yourself and/or protecting your privacy gets you targeted by your neighbours, their kids or the police....whom would seem to apply different (more lenient) rules to thugs, pikeys and those families "known to the police".
What happened to kindness, courtesy, politeness and graciousness?.....should we all have to live in a world run just for those 'Me-me-me`s'?
Dear-Lord, I`m ranting now :-[.......this list could be very long....`better go and have a lie down in a darkened room.
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Well up to now,100% positive backing I beleive.
Why can,t we the people have some party that stands for standards,justice,and common sense politics,that we could vote for in the upcoming general election.
Alfie
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What's it all about alfie? Is it just for the moment we live? ;) :y
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OH,and I forgot the the bloodly BANKERS, or was it W and not a B. Nevermind I think you will get the drift.
I never could spell.
Zulu,that thread was never meant to bring the goverment to its knees.
Alfie.
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Hello Philrich,It might be the moment but its man made.
Alfie.
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Hello Philrich,It might be the moment but its man made.
Alfie.
I'm in complete agreement, on all counts alfie mate :y Oh, BTW, you were right first time, it is W not B ;D ;D :y
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I am convinced that the UK is a much worse place to live than it was 20 - 30 years ago in very many ways. I shant bother trying to list them all, it would take too long, but I think the basis of it is twofold.The people who run the country dont even pretend to have any morals or principles any more, they just smile an even more smug smile when they get off with lies and corruption every time we think they might be about to get caught out. The media and TV in particular have played a large part in the dumbing down process. It is rare to find a TV programme worth watching in these days of 900 channels, whareas there used to be something worth watching almost every night when we only had 3.
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I am convinced that the UK is a much worse place to live than it was 20 - 30 years ago in very many ways. I shant bother trying to list them all, it would take too long, but I think the basis of it is twofold.The people who run the country dont even pretend to have any morals or principles any more, they just smile an even more smug smile when they get off with lies and corruption every time we think they might be about to get caught out. The media and TV in particular have played a large part in the dumbing down process. It is rare to find a TV programme worth watching in these days of 900 channels, whareas there used to be something worth watching almost every night when we only had 3.
Here Here! :y
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Hi everyone,now we all know that Britain is not the same country that we all grew up in,but do you think its better or worse.
Better, by far. But still not perfect by a long way.
Two cars, two mobiles, a million tvs, dishwasher, auto washing machine, foreign holidays ... a lot bettre than when I grew up (dob 1956).
I can go to any country in Europe at a moment's notice for 99p or whatever.
25 days paid leave a year, paternity leave ...
My children don't get mumps / measles and all the other stuff I did. Each of them weighs more than my brother and I did put together (not really) - but they're also taller & stronger to match.
Sure, police may fine you for blowing your nose but they will also stop the tw*ts using their phone while they're driving. And not having insurance, MOT etc. And drink-driving has virtually disappeared. And what about the wonderful West Midlands Serious Crime Squad?
I agree with your comment about the curent system of government - but although many MPs etc may have lost the plot & lost touch with reality, the election system itself is pretty good. As a MOP you can walk into Westminster & see democracy at work.
I spoke to a man from Nigeria - bodies stuffed in wells, police shooting you at roadblocks, "elected" leaders who expect to rule like kings. Let's not forget how lucky we are compared to most other countries & what was heer in '50s and '60s. IMHO stop moaning & do something about it!
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Hi everyone,now we all know that Britain is not the same country that we all grew up in,but do you think its better or worse.
Better, by far. But still not perfect by a long way.
Two cars, two mobiles, a million tvs, dishwasher, auto washing machine, foreign holidays ... a lot bettre than when I grew up (dob 1956).
I can go to any country in Europe at a moment's notice for 99p or whatever.
25 days paid leave a year, paternity leave ...
My children don't get mumps / measles and all the other stuff I did. Each of them weighs more than my brother and I did put together (not really) - but they're also taller & stronger to match.
Sure, police may fine you for blowing your nose but they will also stop the tw*ts using their phone while they're driving. And not having insurance, MOT etc. And drink-driving has virtually disappeared. And what about the wonderful West Midlands Serious Crime Squad?
I agree with your comment about the curent system of government - but although many MPs etc may have lost the plot & lost touch with reality, the election system itself is pretty good. As a MOP you can walk into Westminster & see democracy at work.
I spoke to a man from Nigeria - bodies stuffed in wells, police shooting you at roadblocks, "elected" leaders who expect to rule like kings. Let's not forget how lucky we are compared to most other countries & what was heer in '50s and '60s. IMHO stop moaning & do something about it!
Totally agree Kevin, and although I romance about the 1950s & 60s what we have now in terms of standard of living is FAR better. Just to add one important point to your list Kevin, I no longer see children going around with the results of polio as I used to as a kid; oh, and too many not very old men going around coughing up their lungs!!
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Kevin M,Thanks for your views. What kind of life and country do you think your children and grandchildren will inherit from this goverment in the future.
Alfie.
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There's a common thread here, and it's called nostalgia. No doubt our parents thought the 70's and 80's were horrendous compared to their teddy boy youth. The kids of today will no doubt mourn the passing of the noughties.
Remember, you were looking at the world through young, fresh eyes 30 years ago. Now we're just........old fogies. :(
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Hi everyone,now we all know that Britain is not the same country that we all grew up in,but do you think its better or worse.
I myself think that its all gone downhill fast since this wonderful goverment we have opened our borders to all this so called aslyum seekers,who have little to offer the UK but take everythink offered.
We are fighting a war that we will never win,and had no business to be there in the first place.
We have MPs who have their snouts in the trough,if it was anyone else they would have been charged with fraud.
We have coppers who will fine you for blowing your nose in your own car.
etc etc etc etc,
I,m sure some of you will support me,while others will shoot me down,but everyone is intitled to their own thoughts aren,t they.
Alfie
God, sounds like the Daily Mail has got to you :o
Living in a small town community helps as people are accountable for their actions and cannot get away with things they would in a large anonymous city.
We moved out of a city into Leominster-a place where if you swear at the dozy driver in the car in front of you, you will soon meet them again, in the pub or supermarket-so you avoid the issue and relax!
Without the high-tech available now, I may have died at age 16 and my wife/son too in childbirth, my niece at 2 and my brother in law at 30, so starting with that as a base things have improved for us.
I think the answers on this thread will be as much about optimism and pessimism as the state of the country :-/
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Hi everyone,now we all know that Britain is not the same country that we all grew up in,but do you think its better or worse.
Better, by far. But still not perfect by a long way.
Two cars, two mobiles, a million tvs, dishwasher, auto washing machine, foreign holidays ... a lot bettre than when I grew up (dob 1956).
I can go to any country in Europe at a moment's notice for 99p or whatever.
25 days paid leave a year, paternity leave ...
My children don't get mumps / measles and all the other stuff I did. Each of them weighs more than my brother and I did put together (not really) - but they're also taller & stronger to match.
Sure, police may fine you for blowing your nose but they will also stop the tw*ts using their phone while they're driving. And not having insurance, MOT etc. And drink-driving has virtually disappeared. And what about the wonderful West Midlands Serious Crime Squad?
I agree with your comment about the curent system of government - but although many MPs etc may have lost the plot & lost touch with reality, the election system itself is pretty good. As a MOP you can walk into Westminster & see democracy at work.
I spoke to a man from Nigeria - bodies stuffed in wells, police shooting you at roadblocks, "elected" leaders who expect to rule like kings. Let's not forget how lucky we are compared to most other countries & what was heer in '50s and '60s. IMHO stop moaning & do something about it!
Totally agree Kevin, and although I romance about the 1950s & 60s what we have now in terms of standard of living is FAR better. Just to add one important point to your list Kevin, I no longer see children going around with the results of polio as I used to as a kid; oh, and too many not very old men going around coughing up their lungs!!
Thanks Elizabeth for the support. You also reminded me about being able to sit on public transport and go to pubs etc without having to breathe other people's cigarette smoke. A decision by this government? (Not sure of facts here).
K
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It's better now. Not a lot, and not in all ways. All the things people are complaining about now used to happen then (whenever then may have been) only we didn't have the media to spread it around.
Do you really believe we didn't have MPs and bankers on the make 50/100/200/500 years ago? No paedophiles, bent coppers, drunkenness? No illiterates, psychopaths, racists?
If you want to know what life was like 150 years ago, and have a very enjoyable read, have a look at the Flashman novels. If you want to know what life was like 200 years ago, and have an utterly depressing read, try anything by Thomas Hardy. For 100 years ago, D.H. Lawrence (misery).
For 50 years ago, post here. You can make up your own mind whether that's gloom or hilarity. :) :) :)
As I said in an earlier post today, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
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Hi everyone,now we all know that Britain is not the same country that we all grew up in,but do you think its better or worse.
Better, by far. But still not perfect by a long way.
Two cars, two mobiles, a million tvs, dishwasher, auto washing machine, foreign holidays ... a lot bettre than when I grew up (dob 1956).
I can go to any country in Europe at a moment's notice for 99p or whatever.
25 days paid leave a year, paternity leave ...
My children don't get mumps / measles and all the other stuff I did. Each of them weighs more than my brother and I did put together (not really) - but they're also taller & stronger to match.
Sure, police may fine you for blowing your nose but they will also stop the tw*ts using their phone while they're driving. And not having insurance, MOT etc. And drink-driving has virtually disappeared. And what about the wonderful West Midlands Serious Crime Squad?
I agree with your comment about the curent system of government - but although many MPs etc may have lost the plot & lost touch with reality, the election system itself is pretty good. As a MOP you can walk into Westminster & see democracy at work.
I spoke to a man from Nigeria - bodies stuffed in wells, police shooting you at roadblocks, "elected" leaders who expect to rule like kings. Let's not forget how lucky we are compared to most other countries & what was heer in '50s and '60s. IMHO stop moaning & do something about it!
Totally agree Kevin, and although I romance about the 1950s & 60s what we have now in terms of standard of living is FAR better. Just to add one important point to your list Kevin, I no longer see children going around with the results of polio as I used to as a kid; oh, and too many not very old men going around coughing up their lungs!!
Thanks Elizabeth for the support. You also reminded me about being able to sit on public transport and go to pubs etc without having to breathe other people's cigarette smoke. A decision by this government? (Not sure of facts here).
K
Agreed, the smoking ban has improved our lives massively :y
Now an ex-smoker
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Kevin M,Thanks for your views. What kind of life and country do you think your children and grandchildren will inherit from this goverment in the future.
Alfie.
Good question. Still working on the answer ...
What I would like to see is a mature & considered development from a "rights" culture to a "rights and obligations" culture.
"Human rights" was a proper developement after the terrible things that happened before, in & around the second world war. But Britain, Europe & the world is 60 yrs on now, so "we" should move on to respect also our mutual obligations to each other. Discuss.
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A lot of posters have added well concidered and thought out replys to this thread which should be applauded, however my simple overview of the whole situation of this country is that government whoever may be in power in the near future needs to take a step back and do a full reality check of everything that effects the indiginous population of what was once this great country
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Hi everyone,The recent new law that I do agreed with is the no smoking law/ban in pubs etc.
I do like a pint or two,but before the ban besides breathing in secondhand smoke your clothes would also stink of baccy smoke (horrible).
I was also a smoker in the 70s,glad that I kicked the habit.
Alfie.
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Some very interesting replies here. Life has obviously improved in hundreds of ways with new technology and advances in medical science but yes, I still yearn for the days when as kids we could go out and play on nearby wasteland without (too much) fear of being beaten up by strangers or even abducted. I wouldn't even let my kids out on the street these days TBH, because kids on motorbikes, scooters and in cars come screaming up and down without a second thought.
Another thing I don't like about today's world is the compensation culture that goes hand-in-hand with the crazy health and safety rules that dominate the news these days.
I've got so much more than my parents ever did though
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Some very interesting replies here. Life has obviously improved in hundreds of ways with new technology and advances in medical science but yes, I still yearn for the days when as kids we could go out and play on nearby wasteland without (too much) fear of being beaten up by strangers or even abducted. I wouldn't even let my kids out on the street these days TBH, because kids on motorbikes, scooters and in cars come screaming up and down without a second thought.
Another thing I don't like about today's world is the compensation culture that goes hand-in-hand with the crazy health and safety rules that dominate the news these days.
I've got so much more than my parents ever did though
But you live in Wales. We were discussing the developed world.
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At least I spelt it all right
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At least I spelt it all right
Congratulations
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I thank you
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Interesting point, location....
If you live in a rural area but have access to great medical care, fast broadband, excellent local services etc, you are somewhat immune to the growing problems elsewhere on a day to day basis.
We do not suffer the issues of the city-we are without huge crime, hooligan culture, speed bumps, endless speed cameras, overcrowding, attrition, etc
We have access to the benefits of modern life, without many of the drawbacks :-/
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Interesting point, location....
If you live in a rural area but have access to great medical care, fast broadband, excellent local services etc, you are somewhat immune to the growing problems elsewhere on a day to day basis.
We do not suffer the issues of the city-we are without huge crime, hooligan culture, speed bumps, endless speed cameras, overcrowding, attrition, etc
We have access to the benefits of modern life, without many of the drawbacks :-/
But, living in the countryside, you have to put up with yokels and slovakian potato pickers. ;D
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Kevin M,Thanks for your views. What kind of life and country do you think your children and grandchildren will inherit from this goverment in the future.
Alfie.
Good question. Still working on the answer ...
What I would like to see is a mature & considered development from a "rights" culture to a "rights and obligations" culture.
"Human rights" was a proper developement after the terrible things that happened before, in & around the second world war. But Britain, Europe & the world is 60 yrs on now, so "we" should move on to respect also our mutual obligations to each other. Discuss.
That’s a splendid point K, this very important element in how society at large prepares itself for sustained and progressive development in a world, the commercial and cultural elements of which seem to shrink at an alarming rate thanks to technology, will be crucial in whether we succeed or fail in building a society worth living in.
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Interesting point, location....
If you live in a rural area but have access to great medical care, fast broadband, excellent local services etc, you are somewhat immune to the growing problems elsewhere on a day to day basis.
We do not suffer the issues of the city-we are without huge crime, hooligan culture, speed bumps, endless speed cameras, overcrowding, attrition, etc
We have access to the benefits of modern life, without many of the drawbacks :-/
The disadvantage of this however CTP, is the utter reliance on personal transport. Living in a rural location surrounded by farms, munching sheep and cow's arses I would be - and indeed am - at a distinct disadvange if I were to depend on the megre services offered by public transport.
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Interesting point, location....
If you live in a rural area but have access to great medical care, fast broadband, excellent local services etc, you are somewhat immune to the growing problems elsewhere on a day to day basis.
We do not suffer the issues of the city-we are without huge crime, hooligan culture, speed bumps, endless speed cameras, overcrowding, attrition, etc
We have access to the benefits of modern life, without many of the drawbacks :-/
But, living in the countryside, you have to put up with yokels and slovakian potato pickers. ;D
Yokels can be xenophobic, the potato strawberry pickers a victim of their country's economy-and by working hard, lead an example to the yokels by their actions.
A bit simplistic maybe, but each has a point of view and mostly they both can partly see each others...
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Interesting point, location....
If you live in a rural area but have access to great medical care, fast broadband, excellent local services etc, you are somewhat immune to the growing problems elsewhere on a day to day basis.
We do not suffer the issues of the city-we are without huge crime, hooligan culture, speed bumps, endless speed cameras, overcrowding, attrition, etc
We have access to the benefits of modern life, without many of the drawbacks :-/
The disadvantage of this however CTP, is the utter reliance on personal transport. Living in a rural location surrounded by farms, munching sheep and cow's arses I would be - and indeed am - at a distinct disadvange if I were to depend on the megre services offered by public transport.
A very valid point indeed. I myself live within a short walk of our market town, but you hit the nail squarely on the head for many as lack of public transport being the key drawback of living in the countryside.
The worse thing about it is having to move away from your lifelong friends and community when you can no longer drive.
I deal with this a lot.
My situation, within 7 mins walk of the market square but with rural views works well-I can walk to the train and bus links, supermarkets, library etc etc. I chose this for the reasons in previous posts-I am not from this area, but wanted a nice place to settle for life-with as many positives and few negatives as possible.
We could have retired (in early thirties) to Poland three years ago, when property here was £££ and Poland was cheap, plus exchange rate excellent; but neither of us wanted to leave England. Now we could just about buy a decent flat and still both have to work.
UK has issues, but as said we luckily avoid most of them by living where we do.
I revisit my old houses in the Midlands and can imagine how many now feel-most of them are in areas which have gone downhill :-/
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One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
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Interesting point, location....
If you live in a rural area but have access to great medical care, fast broadband, excellent local services etc, you are somewhat immune to the growing problems elsewhere on a day to day basis.
We do not suffer the issues of the city-we are without huge crime, hooligan culture, speed bumps, endless speed cameras, overcrowding, attrition, etc
We have access to the benefits of modern life, without many of the drawbacks :-/
The disadvantage of this however CTP, is the utter reliance on personal transport. Living in a rural location surrounded by farms, munching sheep and cow's arses I would be - and indeed am - at a distinct disadvange if I were to depend on the megre services offered by public transport.
A very valid point indeed. I myself live within a short walk of our market town, but you hit the nail squarely on the head for many as lack of public transport being the key drawback of living in the countryside.
The worse thing about it is having to move away from your lifelong friends and community when you can no longer drive.
I deal with this a lot.
My situation, within 7 mins walk of the market square but with rural views works well-I can walk to the train and bus links, supermarkets, library etc etc. I chose this for the reasons in previous posts-I am not from this area, but wanted a nice place to settle for life-with as many positives and few negatives as possible.
We could have retired (in early thirties) to Poland three years ago, when property here was £££ and Poland was cheap, plus exchange rate excellent; but neither of us wanted to leave England. Now we could just about buy a decent flat and still both have to work.
UK has issues, but as said we luckily avoid most of them by living where we do.
I revisit my old houses in the Midlands and can imagine how many now feel-most of them are in areas which have gone downhill :-/
I can understand that desire C, this view tends to compensate for the relative isolation.
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One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
As in Kevin's earlier post Nick, this fundamental element is one of the more important to consider when we, as a society, look to the future in anticipation of having something worthwhile to live for and contribute to.
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Interesting point, location....
If you live in a rural area but have access to great medical care, fast broadband, excellent local services etc, you are somewhat immune to the growing problems elsewhere on a day to day basis.
We do not suffer the issues of the city-we are without huge crime, hooligan culture, speed bumps, endless speed cameras, overcrowding, attrition, etc
We have access to the benefits of modern life, without many of the drawbacks :-/
The disadvantage of this however CTP, is the utter reliance on personal transport. Living in a rural location surrounded by farms, munching sheep and cow's arses I would be - and indeed am - at a distinct disadvange if I were to depend on the megre services offered by public transport.
A very valid point indeed. I myself live within a short walk of our market town, but you hit the nail squarely on the head for many as lack of public transport being the key drawback of living in the countryside.
The worse thing about it is having to move away from your lifelong friends and community when you can no longer drive.
I deal with this a lot.
My situation, within 7 mins walk of the market square but with rural views works well-I can walk to the train and bus links, supermarkets, library etc etc. I chose this for the reasons in previous posts-I am not from this area, but wanted a nice place to settle for life-with as many positives and few negatives as possible.
We could have retired (in early thirties) to Poland three years ago, when property here was £££ and Poland was cheap, plus exchange rate excellent; but neither of us wanted to leave England. Now we could just about buy a decent flat and still both have to work.
UK has issues, but as said we luckily avoid most of them by living where we do.
I revisit my old houses in the Midlands and can imagine how many now feel-most of them are in areas which have gone downhill :-/
I can understand that desire C, this view tends to compensate for the relative isolation.
(http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv345/Catdracula/DSCF1018.jpg)
Very nice indeed. I had to make the choice between a killer view and everything else; the short walk to getting fresh bread and newspapers on a Sunday Morning clinched it :y
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One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
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One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
Maybe I am in denial, but it seems like Daily Mail sensationalisation to me-most of this has some grounding in fact but highlighting the extremes does not represent normality-it just sells newspapers :-?
-
One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
On the other hand, we don't have polio, smallpox and untreatable diseases like syphilis and tuberculosis threatening us. We live 20 years longer partly because we don't die from emphysema and other environmental and occupational diseases. We have advanced surgery to put us right when the fantastic medicines we have today can't do it.
We have entertainment and communications available to everyone on a scale inconceivable 50 years ago. We may not look after the elderly as well as we should, but at least we don't lock them away in lunatic asylums any more. We go to the Algarve, not Skegness.
If you choose to live in a rural setting, fine. If you're worried about being cut off when you can no longer drive, think about this: 50 years ago country dwellers didn't have a choice. Nor did they have telephones, televisions and the internet. They may have had more busses and trains, but if they weren't dead by 70, they were probably too crippled by rheumatism to actually go anywhere.
And as for the masses beng disconnected from the lawmakers - when and where was it ever any different? The Paris communes? Israeli kibbutzim? Possibly. Whole nations? Probably not since Sparta.
We've never had it so good. :)
-
One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
Maybe I am in denial, but it seems like Daily Mail sensationalisation to me-most of this has some grounding in fact but highlighting the extremes does not represent normality-it just sells newspapers :-?
I think Nick makes some very important observations here C.
The end result of the points made - and many more - has been responsible, in large measure, for the steady erosion in how we, as individuals, perceive our quality of life to be in society.
It is important to highlight how our patterns of behaviour are being altered by government will, as the drip feed nature of these constantly up-dated and burgeoning regulations seem to pass over the heads of many.
-
One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
On the other hand, we don't have polio, smallpox and untreatable diseases like syphilis and tuberculosis threatening us. We live 20 years longer partly because we don't die from emphysema and other environmental and occupational diseases. We have advanced surgery to put us right when the fantastic medicines we have today can't do it.
We have entertainment and communications available to everyone on a scale inconceivable 50 years ago. We may not look after the elderly as well as we should, but at least we don't lock them away in lunatic asylums any more. We go to the Algarve, not Skegness.
If you choose to live in a rural setting, fine. If you're worried about being cut off when you can no longer drive, think about this: 50 years ago country dwellers didn't have a choice. Nor did they have telephones, televisions and the internet. They may have had more busses and trains, but if they weren't dead by 70, they were probably too crippled by rheumatism to actually go anywhere.
And as for the masses beng disconnected from the lawmakers - when and where was it ever any different? The Paris communes? Israeli kibbutzim? Possibly. Whole nations? Probably not since Sparta.
We've never had it so good. :)
I understand what you are saying J, but the point is that many industrialised countries share all these benefits, without the loss of individual freedom.
We ARE the most CCTV-observed nation on the planet.
We DO have some of the most draconian laws with regard to freedom of speech and personal liberty.
Finally, the UK has dropped out of the top ten economically-free countries for the first time ever.
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/politics-and-government/britain-is-no-longer-free-201001274740/
I stand by what I posted earlier. ;)
-
One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
Maybe I am in denial, but it seems like Daily Mail sensationalisation to me-most of this has some grounding in fact but highlighting the extremes does not represent normality-it just sells newspapers :-?
I think Nick makes some very important observations here C.
The end result of the points made - and many more - has been responsible, in large measure, for the steady erosion in how we, as individuals, perceive our quality of life to be in society.
It is important to highlight how our patterns of behaviour are being altered by government will, as the drip feed nature of these constantly up-dated and burgeoning regulations seem to pass over the heads of many.
People like sensational stories, so tabloids and pub-experts whip it up to get noticed-they have a ready market.
AFAIK many things have improved, some things are worse-it is as much to do with human nature as politicians but the whole whingeing and stirring it up is pointless and futile.
If you feel society needs changing, do something about it-set up a political party and see it through.
The worst thing about modern culture is pointless moaning: thinking you could do it better but not doing it is part of our "I'm an expert, but will leave someone else to sort it out, while I whinge" culture
-
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
Thank you for your gracious comments. :)
-
One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
Maybe I am in denial, but it seems like Daily Mail sensationalisation to me-most of this has some grounding in fact but highlighting the extremes does not represent normality-it just sells newspapers :-?
I think Nick makes some very important observations here C.
The end result of the points made - and many more - has been responsible, in large measure, for the steady erosion in how we, as individuals, perceive our quality of life to be in society.
It is important to highlight how our patterns of behaviour are being altered by government will, as the drip feed nature of these constantly up-dated and burgeoning regulations seem to pass over the heads of many.
People like sensational stories, so tabloids and pub-experts whip it up to get noticed-they have a ready market.
AFAIK many things have improved, some things are worse-it is as much to do with human nature as politicians but the whole whingeing and stirring it up is pointless and futile.
If you feel society needs changing, do something about it-set up a political party and see it through.
The worst thing about modern culture is pointless moaning: thinking you could do it better but not doing it is part of our "I'm an expert, but will leave someone else to sort it out, while I whinge" culture
I assume that you are not referring to me in particular C.
I think it important that we all should be able to make justifiable comments about how we view society, if we were to desist what would be the outcome? In doing so it isn’t necessary to take to the streets with a banner proclaiming our dissatisfaction or demanding the dissolution of parliament.
In exchanging views in this way (far from stirring it up) we can constructively discuss the many things that effect each and every one living here, in this country, at the moment
-
One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
Maybe I am in denial, but it seems like Daily Mail sensationalisation to me-most of this has some grounding in fact but highlighting the extremes does not represent normality-it just sells newspapers :-?
I think Nick makes some very important observations here C.
The end result of the points made - and many more - has been responsible, in large measure, for the steady erosion in how we, as individuals, perceive our quality of life to be in society.
It is important to highlight how our patterns of behaviour are being altered by government will, as the drip feed nature of these constantly up-dated and burgeoning regulations seem to pass over the heads of many.
People like sensational stories, so tabloids and pub-experts whip it up to get noticed-they have a ready market.
AFAIK many things have improved, some things are worse-it is as much to do with human nature as politicians but the whole whingeing and stirring it up is pointless and futile.
If you feel society needs changing, do something about it-set up a political party and see it through.
The worst thing about modern culture is pointless moaning: thinking you could do it better but not doing it is part of our "I'm an expert, but will leave someone else to sort it out, while I whinge" culture
I assume that you are not referring to me in particular C.
I think it important that we all should be able to make justifiable comments about how we view society, if we were to desist what would be the outcome? In doing so it isn’t necessary to take to the streets with a banner proclaiming our dissatisfaction or demanding the dissolution of parliament.
In exchanging views in this way (far from stirring it up) we can constructively discuss the many things that effect each and every one living here, in this country, at the moment
Partly, NB-many posts seem to be a stinging criticism of some policy, decision, law or other.
I've never seen a "Now this is a great idea" post :-?
I usually keep out of these threads with the thought ::) ::)
OOF wouldn't be the same without you and your followers :y ;D ;
I'll read and :-X to stay out of controversy :y
-
One of the greatest problems we face in our society is a feeling of helplessness.
We have endured so much political correctness rammed down our throats over the past decade, it is hard to know where to start.
Essentially, by government diktat, many of our freedoms have been eeked away, ostensibly to make our lives better.
So,
We can't have a smoke in a pub anymore and anyway, the pubs are closing at a frightening rate.
We can't drive in a relaxed manner for fear that we may stray over the limit and get several points on our licence. We're being watched constantly.
We can't tell a risqué joke in case we're deemed sexist, racist, homophobic.
We can't defend our properties lest we end up being charge with assault.
...and as shown recently, we can't even blow our nose when sitting in a traffic jam.
..and much else.
The problem with all this is that thing is we can't seem to do anything about it. The government has achieved total power over the smallest parts of our lives. It has politicised all our great institutions.
And, to rub salt in the wound, as it were, the Members of our esteemed Parliament have achieved all this whilst having their noses firmly in the trough.
Deep frustration is building up in society. There is a complete disconnect between the lawmakers and the masses.
>:( >:( :( :(
Precisely. This single post has the whole she bang sewn up in a reasoned & constructive manner whilst getting all relative points through succinctly. Well put Nick.
Maybe I am in denial, but it seems like Daily Mail sensationalisation to me-most of this has some grounding in fact but highlighting the extremes does not represent normality-it just sells newspapers :-?
I think Nick makes some very important observations here C.
The end result of the points made - and many more - has been responsible, in large measure, for the steady erosion in how we, as individuals, perceive our quality of life to be in society.
It is important to highlight how our patterns of behaviour are being altered by government will, as the drip feed nature of these constantly up-dated and burgeoning regulations seem to pass over the heads of many.
People like sensational stories, so tabloids and pub-experts whip it up to get noticed-they have a ready market.
AFAIK many things have improved, some things are worse-it is as much to do with human nature as politicians but the whole whingeing and stirring it up is pointless and futile.
If you feel society needs changing, do something about it-set up a political party and see it through.
The worst thing about modern culture is pointless moaning: thinking you could do it better but not doing it is part of our "I'm an expert, but will leave someone else to sort it out, while I whinge" culture
It is, of course, the very pointlessness and futility of "whinging" (may I substitute the word "disagreement"?) that is creating the situation of discontent we have. I feel you perhaps underestimate the feelings of the general public - and I see it as serious.
"If you feel society needs changing, do something about it-set up a political party and see it through."
It is impossible to set up a viable political party unless you happen to be billionaire (NuLabour is millions in debt).
-
I think the hobgoblins (as per sig) are working late shift tonight ;D
I'll dwell on it NB :y
-
Partly, NB-many posts seem to be a stinging criticism of some policy, decision, law or other.
I've never seen a "Now this is a great idea" post :-?
I usually keep out of these threads with the thought ::) ::)
OOF wouldn't be the same without you and your followers :y ;D ;
I'll read and :-X to stay out of controversy :y
I have to say that I'm not some sort of Svengali to whom many in this forum look for guidance I'm simply commenting on a thread started by a member raising a legitimate view on how he feels our society to be placed at present. I have no desire to influence others.
It is right and indeed necessary to comment on how the policies of this present government are affecting many people not only on this forum but in the country as a whole. Furthermore, far from being an armchair critic, my extensive correspondence with government officials has ensured that my light - howsoever dim – has shone in directions other than the OOF.
Finally, you should not desist from comment on threads such as this as your views and comments are as valid, considered and worthwhile as anyone’s.
-
I hate the lack of production/export, most towns are turning into clones of eachother with the same brand retail parks & f/food joints. Breweries have priced "local" pubs into collapse hence yet another "brand" of so called plastic pubs/carveries/whacky wharehouse god awful places & the smoking ban has'nt helped (pubs should be given the choice to cater for all) ie no smoking here or a smoking pub or one smoking bar & one non smoking within the same pub so everyone's happy. I like to smoke & defend my right too but i also understand non smokers don't want thier evening ruined sat in someone elses fug & having to take it home with them...fair go, but the pub landlords should be able to make thier own minds up.
Given my job i travel the country & despair at the run down boarded up sh*tholes some of our towns have become which takes us back to the first point, the loss of manufacturing & rise of cloned retail parks. :'(
That said i could never live anywhere else, i'd get homesick & despite the mess we're in we're much better off than many others. It's my home & i'm staying put. :y
-
Anyone who thinks that the erosion of freedoms and the social engineering which have taken place under the current regime is purely Daily Mail sensationalism and negativity spouted by a bunch of whingers should maybe conduct a bit of a study into just how many thousands of pieces of legislation this lot have introduced since they took office, and more importantly the acual wording and contents of many of them.
But as some of us have said many times the situation is pretty hopeless unless we can extract ourselves from the totally undemocratic institutions of Europe.
I dont feel european, I dont want to be european and I strongly believe that most of the British people feel the same way.
-
Good morning everyone,well there are lots of comments on here good and bad,but one of the points that has not been mentioned is personnel safety. Do you feel safe going out at night,walking past a group of hoodies,drunks and druggies.
Do you place yourself between them and your wife/girl friend. This kind of action wasn,t heard of before.
Alfie.
-
Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:
Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.
Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.
One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]
I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.
Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”. CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
It starts with you …
[/patronise]
-
Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:
Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.
Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.
One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]
I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.
Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”. CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
It starts with you …
[/patronise]
Good morning to you K 8-) 8-)
Some splendid points to address when I get back from a funeral I'll be attending shortly.
In the meantime, plenty to ponder. :y
-
What's it all about alfie? Is it just for the moment we live? ;) :y
;D ;D ;D
What's it all about when you sort it out, Alfie?
Are we meant to take more than we give
or are we meant to be kind?
-
Spot on Kevin.
Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.
The Europe link is very tenuous. If you visit our European neighbours you will find they are "more relaxed" about life. There was a poll on the best countries to live in the world recently. Britain was 25th from memory. France, Belgium, Switzerland and Oz were up there in the top 5 or so. It was based on a wide criteria.
As I have said before, a lot of todays problems are derived from the (parents) "Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.
-
......I get back from a funeral I'll be attending shortly........
That put`s EVERYTHING into perspective....... :'(
-
Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:
Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.
Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.
One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]
I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.
Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”. CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
It starts with you …
[/patronise]
You can trust Kevin to hit the nail on the head-I echo the sentiments, but my postings were not as cleverly put and concise as this one :y
-
Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:
Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.
Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.
One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]
I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.
Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”. CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
It starts with you …
[/patronise]
Yes Kevin, you are really singing off the same hymn sheet as me! :y :y :y :y
I am delighted that my freedom to walk into a pub, club, cinema and not be assulted by cancer giving polution from cigerattes is being protected!
I am delighted that when driving any one who is "relaxing" into a state of unconsciousness of their surroundings and 'distant' from their driving responsibilities have a chance of perhaps being stopped, and picking up a sizeable fine, before smashing into me and my passengers!
I am delighted that anyone who uses hateful, spiteful, destructive, racist language or actions in public (as they did when I was a kid) is properly brought to book and disowned by society, with my freedom to not hear such offensive expressions being upheld!
I am delighted that CCTV has spread and is indeed monitoring what is going on in the street with crime being reduced as a result, and here in Ashford the police cells being closed down due to a lack of occupants!
I am delighted to live in the Britain of today without all the issues of yesterday handicapping our lives! :y :y :y :y
-
Spot on Kevin.
Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.
The Europe link is very tenuous. If you visit our European neighbours you will find they are "more relaxed" about life. There was a poll on the best countries to live in the world recently. Britain was 25th from memory. France, Belgium, Switzerland and Oz were up there in the top 5 or so. It was based on a wide criteria.
As I have said before, a lot of todays problems are derived from the (parents) "Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.
I'm happy to call myself European; in some countries it is embarrassing admitting I am English because of our reputation for violence and drunken stupidity.
I never have accepted the "English is best" argument; we do some things very well but on balance we would do well to learn much from many other countries.
Many are moaning about England/UK being in a mess and then saying it is better than anywhere else. It does not add up :-/
-
Spot on Kevin.
Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.
The Europe link is very tenuous. If you visit our European neighbours you will find they are "more relaxed" about life. There was a poll on the best countries to live in the world recently. Britain was 25th from memory. France, Belgium, Switzerland and Oz were up there in the top 5 or so. It was based on a wide criteria.
As I have said before, a lot of todays problems are derived from the (parents) "Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.
I'm happy to call myself European; in some countries it is embarrassing admitting I am English because of our reputation for violence and drunken stupidity.
I never have accepted the "English is best" argument; we do some things very well but on balance we would do well to learn much from many other countries.
Many are moaning about England/UK being in a mess and then saying it is better than anywhere else. It does not add up :-/
Dead right on all points! :y :y :y :y
-
Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:
Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.
Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.
One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]
I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.
Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”. CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
It starts with you …
[/patronise]
Yes Kevin, you are really singing off the same hymn sheet as me! :y :y :y :y
I am delighted that my freedom to walk into a pub, club, cinema and not be assulted by cancer giving polution from cigerattes is being protected!
I am delighted that when driving any one who is "relaxing" into a state of unconsciousness of their surroundings and 'distant' from their driving responsibilities have a chance of perhaps being stopped, and picking up a sizeable fine, before smashing into me and my passengers!
I am delighted that anyone who uses hateful, spiteful, destructive, racist language or actions in public (as they did when I was a kid) is properly brought to book and disowned by society, with my freedom to not hear such offensive expressions being upheld!
I am delighted that CCTV has spread and is indeed monitoring what is going on in the street with crime being reduced as a result, and here in Ashford the police cells being closed down due to a lack of occupants!
I am delighted to live in the Britain of today without all the issues of yesterday handicapping our lives! :y :y :y :y
I am not delighted that the freedom to smoke in segregated areas is no longer available.
I suppose you ALWAYS observe the limit to the nearest 1mph, even when the road is traffic free. Such a saint. Next time you follow someone who slams on the brakes at the sight of a partially hidden Gatso, or Talevan, while travelling at 34mph in a 30 zone make sure you don't hit them. You twisted the point I was making. I am not advocating crashing into cars...as well, you know.
The point about political correctness in language is that it has been applied subjectively with excessive zeal. Your freedom not to hear things you don't want to hear impinges upon my freedom to hear them. Who's to say you're right and I'm not?
I am not keen that my every move is being watched by a camera (and my voice being recorded on some).
Soem surveillance is necessary, but in other countries where CCTV is far less widespread than here, they have lower crime rates. Thus your point about empty cells is not particularly valid.
>:(
-
Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:
Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.
Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.
One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]
I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.
Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”. CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
It starts with you …
[/patronise]
Yes Kevin, you are really singing off the same hymn sheet as me! :y :y :y :y
I am delighted that my freedom to walk into a pub, club, cinema and not be assulted by cancer giving polution from cigerattes is being protected!
I am delighted that when driving any one who is "relaxing" into a state of unconsciousness of their surroundings and 'distant' from their driving responsibilities have a chance of perhaps being stopped, and picking up a sizeable fine, before smashing into me and my passengers!
I am delighted that anyone who uses hateful, spiteful, destructive, racist language or actions in public (as they did when I was a kid) is properly brought to book and disowned by society, with my freedom to not hear such offensive expressions being upheld!
I am delighted that CCTV has spread and is indeed monitoring what is going on in the street with crime being reduced as a result, and here in Ashford the police cells being closed down due to a lack of occupants!
I am delighted to live in the Britain of today without all the issues of yesterday handicapping our lives! :y :y :y :y
1. I am not delighted that the freedom to smoke in segregated areas is no longer available.
2. I suppose you ALWAYS observe the limit to the nearest 1mph, even when the road is traffic free. Such a saint. Next time you follow someone who slams on the brakes at the sight of a partially hidden Gatso, or Talevan, while travelling at 34mph in a 30 zone make sure you don't hit them. You twisted the point I was making. I am not advocating crashing into cars...as well, you know.
3. The point about political correctness in language is that it has been applied subjectively with excessive zeal. Your freedom not to hear things you don't want to hear impinges upon my freedom to hear them. Who's to say you're right and I'm not?
4. I am not keen that my every move is being watched by a camera (and my voice being recorded on some).
Soem surveillance is necessary, but in other countries where CCTV is far less widespread than here, they have lower crime rates. Thus your point about empty cells is not particularly valid.
>:(
!. Well Nick I AM delighted you can no longer freely smoke and course you, and others around you, to suffer smoking relating illnesses that cost every taxpayer billions to treat, if they live!
2. You were talking about drivers being in a relaxed state Nick; my answer was related to that!
3. The critical issue about freedom is that you as a person can enjoy it, but in that process you should not harm others peoples freedom. Thus in a civilised, educated society, no-one should have the freedom to use offensive language that hurts emotionally other people just because they want to. The big question Nick is why should you want to?? Who says you or I or right? Well the law does say I am if you use offensive language, a "hate crime", in a public place or publish, or on the internet!
4. If you have nothing to hide Nick why does CCTV worry you? It is a method by which society can be protected, and also you as an individual. This is another example of how you think the world and his wife is out to get you and downtrodden men, how your cynasism is affecting the way you think as a whole, and you are not seeing the many positives of life in the UK. You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process. Paint it all black if you so wish, but the reality is we mostly benefit from our system of today, rather than the inequalities that were rife in the "good old days" of 200 years ago. ;) ;)
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
-
Just as an aside, I had a tour of the CCTV for a city nearby, recently.
I always knew it existed, but I was absolutely gobsmacked at how detailed it was, how close you could get, and how wide an area it covers....
I agree that most CCTV operators and the organisation they are in are genuine people, but as with any role, you will get bad apples...
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
-
Can't say much about Brittain.
But my country sure went downhill in the last 20 years.
Yeah we got the oportunity to vote, but people are living worse than 20 years ago.
In former country there was almost no unemployment, crime was low, social security was great, healthcare was good, people could leave their houses unlocked (actually almost nobody locked the doors especially in smaller towns and villages), people were frendlier, more open and more happy.
I guess all of Europe has been going downhill, some countries more some less in tha last two :'( decades
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Can't say much about Brittain.
But my country sure went downhill in the last 20 years.
Yeah we got the oportunity to vote, but people are living worse than 20 years ago.
In former country there was almost no unemployment, crime was low, social security was great, healthcare was good, people could leave their houses unlocked (actually almost nobody locked the doors especially in smaller towns and villages), people were frendlier, more open and more happy.
I guess all of Europe has been going downhill, some countries more some less in tha last two :'( decades
That is quite sad to hear. Has anything improved? (road network maybe?)
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
Some good points E
I did not want to start a battle, hence my earlier :-X comment about avoiding these threads, in the same vein as my thought "do something positive, or do nothing".
When I first found the OOF site, I thought I had uncovered a clandestine revolutionary party after reading the huge number of anti government/ political threads, but realised it was often whinge and rhetoric, so have avoided posting previously.
I enjoy a good discussion, but it does get a bit samey :-?
No offence meant at any stage NB-everyone is welcome to their views :y :y
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OK - attempt number 3.
This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger. At least, I think that's what it is about.
It's better. There can't be any argument. We are materially better off. We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services. We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them. We have better entertainment and communications. We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there.
Rights and responsibilities. Means nothing. We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out. There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge. I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been. We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded. If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it? We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done.
So we've dropped out out the economic top ten. So? 150 years ago, we were number 1. Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us. Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.
Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe. We are ethnically part of Europe. We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians. So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria. But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.
I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.
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OK - attempt number 3.
This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger. At least, I think that's what it is about.
It's better. There can't be any argument. We are materially better off. We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services. We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them. We have better entertainment and communications. We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there.
Rights and responsibilities. Means nothing. We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out. There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge. I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been. We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded. If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it? We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done.
So we've dropped out out the economic top ten. So? 150 years ago, we were number 1. Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us. Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.
Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe. We are ethnically part of Europe. We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians. So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria. But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.
I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.
Well said Jereboam, and I for one very much agree with almost everything all you state :y :y :y :y :y
The only small matter I would perhaps argue, as I have elsewhere on this extended thread, is that most of those working in the Civil Service, Health Service, Education, Police Service, Armed Services are working to the best of their ability to give us the service we require. Yes, there are some very unfortunate exceptions, bad apples, but that is life generally and probably will never be erradicated. ;) ;)
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OK - attempt number 3.
This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger. At least, I think that's what it is about.
It's better. There can't be any argument. We are materially better off. We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services. We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them. We have better entertainment and communications. We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there.
Rights and responsibilities. Means nothing. We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out. There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge. I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been. We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded. If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it? We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done.
So we've dropped out out the economic top ten. So? 150 years ago, we were number 1. Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us. Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.
Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe. We are ethnically part of Europe. We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians. So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria. But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.
I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.
Well put :y
-
!. Well Nick I AM delighted you can no longer freely smoke and course you, and others around you, to suffer smoking relating illnesses that cost every taxpayer billions to treat, if they live!
2. You were talking about drivers being in a relaxed state Nick; my answer was related to that!
3. The critical issue about freedom is that you as a person can enjoy it, but in that process you should not harm others peoples freedom. Thus in a civilised, educated society, no-one should have the freedom to use offensive language that hurts emotionally other people just because they want to. The big question Nick is why should you want to?? Who says you or I or right? Well the law does say I am if you use offensive language, a "hate crime", in a public place or publish, or on the internet!
4. have nothing to hide Nick why does CCTV If you worry you? It is a method by which society can be protected, and also you as an individual. This is another example of how you think the world and his wife is out to get you and downtrodden men, how your cynasism is affecting the way you think as a whole, and you are not seeing the many positives of life in the UK. You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process. Paint it all black if you so wish, but the reality is we mostly benefit from our system of today, rather than t
Well Nick I AM delighted you can no longer freely smoke and course you, and others around you, to suffer smoking relating illnesses that cost every taxpayer billions to treat, if they live!
I have never smoked and I detest the smell of it however there are other chronic conditions also contracted by way of excessive behaviour that will cost the taxpayer just as much or even more to treat. We tend to disinterested in health related matters until we suffer their consequences and even when many become aware of their condition, little changes in their regime to try and correct the matter – smoking is no different.
have nothing to hide Nick why does CCTV If you worry you? It is a method by which society can be protected, and also you as an individual.
If you believe that Elizabeth I'm very surprised, CCTV where it's installed and monitored by trained personnel can be of use to the police when responding to a developing situation. However how many times have we heard that the image quality isn't sufficient to positively identify those suspected of misdemeanours so it isn’t as beneficial as many suggest?
CCTV was thought to be a way to monitor the areas under surveillance that lacked a regular police presence. Its proliferation isn't welcome news as this, I believe, is a way to police on the cheap - it certainly isn't an answer to putting miscreants in court.
The fact that we have no choice in the matter when we walk the public streets but to be observed holds the potential for abuse. That unwelcome fact is quite evident in the way the RIP Act has been used to enable those deemed responsible to observe and record the movements of people not necessarily committing crimes in the generally accepted sense of the word. We used to call this mission creep and the fact is if the facility is there, it will be used for purposes other than originally intended.
that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process.
That's a bit idealistic and unrealistic there E. I have been an establishment figure most of my adult life with the ***, ** and *** and can say that I was aware that many I had dealings with in various departments had no real interest in working for the benefit of this nation or its inhabitants. They were there because it afforded employment.
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive
Is that really the case E? I thought that Nick was simply highlighting the many ways in which our establishment has been skewed by a plethora of rules and regulations - not all made by our own legisllature. Should he refrain from this?
I don't think so.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.
Irrespective on whether Nick chooses to follow your direction E, does this disqualify his commenting on these matters on this forum - it certainly doesn't make him the lesser for it?
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Is it possible to compare 'Now and 'Then' with regard to which is better.
There are direct comparables such as Life expectancy, median incomes, literacy rates ect. but very much more that is purely a subjective viewpoint.
That subjective viewpoint also changes with time, we now regard Mozart as a classical genius but in his time he was looked at as a renegade, an 18 century 'punk rocker'.
My 16y-old daughter can't believe we had only 3 t.v. channels, 1 broadcasting in black and white and all shutting down on Sundays til the evening, power cuts and using log books for maths.I found it hard to believe my parents went round to the only house on the street with a t.v. to watch the coronation.
Every society has arguments about change and how things have gotten worse since they were younger, Socrates for example said:-
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
We've all got a viewpoint on changing society, but that's all it is, a point of view that is held by each person deriving from their experiences past and present.
Each viewpoint is valid but I don't think we can say it was better then or it's better now.Probably the best we can do is say somethings are demonstrably better, by direct comparison and other things have changed, whether we like it or not.
Britain isn't the same, and it will be different tomorrow as yesterday was to today.
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
Some good points E
I did not want to start a battle, hence my earlier :-X comment about avoiding these threads, in the same vein as my thought "do something positive, or do nothing".
When I first found the OOF site, I thought I had uncovered a clandestine revolutionary party after reading the huge number of anti government/ political threads, but realised it was often whinge and rhetoric, so have avoided posting previously.
I enjoy a good discussion, but it does get a bit samey :-?
No offence meant at any stage NB-everyone is welcome to their views :y :y
but realised it was often whinge and rhetoric,
That's a very jaundiced view C, can legitimate comment not be made without breast-beating on the streets?
the huge number of anti government/ political threads
To legitimately criticise a government that has led us into two intractable wars, convened more laws in its lifetime than many know how to catalogue, made a mess of our public services and financial standing, presided over a culture where apathy and breaklessness have been rewarded and tolerated, lost control of our state security and has been guilty of social engineering to an alarming degree, is certainly justified and indeed obligatory.
To engage in this debate in no way lessens the individual’s love of nation or respect for its institutions.
but it does get a bit samey
There is plenty to discuss such has been the destructive influence of this present government.
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OK - attempt number 3.
This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger. At least, I think that's what it is about.
It's better. There can't be any argument. We are materially better off. We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services. We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them. We have better entertainment and communications. We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there.
Rights and responsibilities. Means nothing. We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out. There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge. I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been. We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded. If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it? We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done.
So we've dropped out out the economic top ten. So? 150 years ago, we were number 1. Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us. Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.
Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe. We are ethnically part of Europe. We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians. So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria. But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.
I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.
That's part of the problem J - we can't.
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive
1/ Is that really the case E? I thought that Nick was simply highlighting the many ways in which our establishment has been skewed by a plethora of rules and regulations - not all made by our own legisllature. Should he refrain from this?
I don't think so.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.
2/ Irrespective on whether Nick chooses to follow your direction E, does this disqualify his commenting on these matters on this forum - it certainly doesn't make him the lesser for it?
1/ Zulu in that statement alone of yours you are adopting the same assumption as Nick that anything to do with the establishment of our great country is "skewed" (or twisted) in some negative and highly detrimental way! This is exactly what I am against, as I know this nation is not perfect, but it is by a very long way not all bad as you and Nick paints it. This constant view point is not only negative, but destructive as well. Make political points yes, but to adopt this constant barrage against everything that is the establishment on a car forum...........??
2/ Zulu I am commenting in this way as I am answering Nick's constant barrage against the establishment within the UK, and in context of climate change / global warming, world politics. If he feels so strongly then he should take his campaign into the full political arena rather than continually go over and over the same negative view points on a car forum! This I feel is especially required as Nick does not like to be challenged and resorts to put downs, such as his "utter tosh" utterance in this thread! This is when I draw the line on debating a sensible issue and decide to use my debating time elsewhere. This is why I am not commenting now on any climate change / globe warming thread as Nick (and a few others) has his set beliefs that we are all being lied to and/ or we are all deluded when we put across contrary beliefs.
This thread is about the state of the UK, with I and others expressing the view it is a nice place to live compared to earlier years. Yes no doubt some, like Nick, will argue against this......fair enough............but my views are not "utter tosh"........ and I am not going to accept these personal attacks without protest!!
My beliefs are exactly that, what I believe and live with after 56 years of comprehensive living around the UK, Europe, and the USA, brought up in a Royal Navy family, much experience, knowledge and contact. If others do not agree with me fine..............but personal abuse is not the answer. ;) ;) ;)
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That's part of the problem J - we can't.
Er, sorry. We can't what ? :) :) :)
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That's part of the problem J - we can't.
Er, sorry. We can't what ? :) :) :)
;D ;D excuse me - vote them out
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1/ Zulu in that statement alone of yours you are adopting the same assumption as Nick that anything to do with the establishment of our great country is "skewed" (or twisted) in some negative and highly detrimental way! This is exactly what I am against, as I know this nation is not perfect, but it is by a very long way not all bad as you and Nick paints it. This constant view point is not only negative, but destructive as well. Make political points yes, but to adopt this constant barrage against everything that is the establishment on a car forum...........??
2/ Zulu I am commenting in this way as I am answering Nick's constant barrage against the establishment within the UK, and in context of climate change / global warming, world politics. If he feels so strongly then he should take his campaign into the full political arena rather than continually go over and over the same negative view points on a car forum! This I feel is especially required as Nick does not like to be challenged and resorts to put downs, such as his "utter tosh" utterance in this thread! This is when I draw the line on debating a sensible issue and decide to use my debating time elsewhere. This is why I am not commenting now on any climate change / globe warming thread as Nick (and a few others) has his set beliefs that we are all being lied to and/ or we are all deluded when we put across contrary beliefs.
This thread is about the state of the UK, with I and others expressing the view it is a nice place to live compared to earlier years. Yes no doubt some, like Nick, will argue against this......fair enough............but my views are not "utter tosh"........ and I am not going to accept these personal attacks without protest!!
My beliefs are exactly that, what I believe and live with after 56 years of comprehensive living around the UK, Europe, and the USA, brought up in a Royal Navy family, much experience, knowledge and contact. If others do not agree with me fine..............but personal abuse is not the answer. ;) ;) ;)
as I know this nation is not perfect
You can say that again E
assumption
Far from assuming anything E, I think that my comments are based on what I see to be the case - from direct observation and experience.
constant barrage against everything that is the establishment on a car forum
Is that really the only thing I post about E? and should we take the fact that this is indeed a car forum, does that mean that the only subject allowed for discussion should be related to Omega cars? This is the general Discussion Area after all.
he feels so strongly then he should take his campaign into the full political arena rather than continually go over and over the same negative view points on a car forum
Why should he E, as the facility of the GD area is open to such comment?
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::) I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that! ;D
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum
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::) I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that! ;D
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum
It may well pop up at some stage D. :( :y
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::) I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that! ;D
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum
:y :y :yThe video should be compulsory viewing for all members. Especially some of the "old hands".
Particularly liked the post count reference. :) :) :)
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::) I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that! ;D
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum
:y :y :yThe video should be compulsory viewing for all members. Especially some of the "old hands".
Particularly liked the post count reference. :) :) :)
I am in complete agreement with you J.
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::) I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that! ;D
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum
Great one Debs! :D :D :D :y :y :y :y
I have certainly stopped now on this thread; well I have stated what I wanted to about Britain today!! ::) ::) :D :D ;) ;)
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Sounds more like cloud cuckoo land than Britain imo. ;) :D ;D ;D ;D
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Spot on Kevin.
Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.
The Europe link is very tenuous. If you visit our European neighbours you will find they are "more relaxed" about life. There was a poll on the best countries to live in the world recently. Britain was 25th from memory. France, Belgium, Switzerland and Oz were up there in the top 5 or so. It was based on a wide criteria.
As I have said before, a lot of todays problems are derived from the (parents) "Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.
Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.
Many of us are waiting to do this on May 5th V ;)
Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.
I may well agree with you there V :y
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I dont want to get involved in the debate as such, although I will say both sides have raised valid points.
The one issue that drives me bonkers these days is crime and punishment. People get the most derisory sentences for what was once considered a very serious crime. The spiral appears to be downwards, with ever more outrageous 'punishments' being invented to keep the prison population at a manageable level.
I think the party that finally shoots all the liberalists and starts building prisons would do rather well at the polls. But, of course, we are more likely to privatise the whole prison service and, therefore, make things even worse.
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Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:
Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.
Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.
One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]
I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.
Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”. CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
It starts with you …
[/patronise]
Just a few points K.
I certainly don't hate Europe as I served there for some time and maintain links with colleagues who remain there.
I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.
mutual obligations
The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.
Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).
No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.
Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.
This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.
When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.
:( :(
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This has been a most interesting topic and has made me think more about the subject.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to post accordingly. As per the "how to..." video, anyone can always move on to another thread if they find posts of a particular nature not of personal interest.
Some strong ideas, some great retorts-the first political thread I have actively contributed to, so a new thing for me.
I have a wife and young family and we struggle to get by but try to make the best of it-knowing that with our busy life and hectic workload we have only the vote to change policies-we are not at the stage in life where we can do much else.
Frustration could rule-but we accept the good with the bad and look forward :y
Cheers, everyone for a lively and interesting thread :y
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Hi,just a personel view about our present lords and masters,who tend to have 2 very expensive homes.
Our local MP was ALWAYS Labour,eg the imfamous Michael Foot,then LLew Smith.
When LLew Smith decided to stand down at the next election,Labour decided to parachute their own candidate to fight the seat,thinking that the outcome was a forgone conclosuion,(a union worker from head office if I remember correctly).Blairs Babes!
Anyway the local party and residents took this as a insult,and a few lauched their own party,and He won the seat which had been one of labours safest in the whole country.
So it go,s to prove that the people have the power to make change if they get out of their armchairs and vote.
By the way the Labour Party choice also got herself a seat in the House of Lords at a later date.
Its a funny old world is politics.
Alfie
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).
No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.
Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.
This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.
When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.
:( :(
I'm sorry as well Nick! :-* :-* :-* I think both our debates have become too deep as we are both passionate about each of our view points. I was wound up as well with the heat of passion, and perhaps at times I am too loyal to Britain and its ancient establishment, but once I get going.........!! :-[ :-[ :-[
Ignore, as I am sure you will, my suggestion that you should stop raising the issues you do. You have of course every right to do so, even though I get frustrated with the issue of global warming / climate change and what I see as some dogma :P :P Perhaps even I will rejoin that debate and see your point of view ;) ;)
Anyway let's draw a line under all the bickering if you are willing too and debate as friends again seeking democratic debate without personal attack 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
All the very best Nick :-* :-* :-* :-*
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).
No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.
Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.
This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.
When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.
:( :(
I'm sorry as well Nick! :-* :-* :-* I think both our debates have become too deep as we are both passionate about each of our view points. I was wound up as well with the heat of passion, and perhaps at times I am too loyal to Britain and its ancient establishment, but once I get going.........!! :-[ :-[ :-[
Ignore, as I am sure you will, my suggestion that you should stop raising the issues you do. You have of course every right to do so, even though I get frustrated with the issue of global warming / climate change and what I see as some dogma :P :P Perhaps even I will rejoin that debate and see your point of view ;) ;)
Anyway let's draw a line under all the bickering if you are willing too and debate as friends again seeking democratic debate without personal attack 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
All the very best Nick :-* :-* :-* :-*
Yes, time for few deep breaths, methinks. No harm done. ;)
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My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").
I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....
"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."
..is utter tosh. :(
Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring.
As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression. But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"!
I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).
No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.
Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.
This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.
When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.
:( :(
I'm sorry as well Nick! :-* :-* :-* I think both our debates have become too deep as we are both passionate about each of our view points. I was wound up as well with the heat of passion, and perhaps at times I am too loyal to Britain and its ancient establishment, but once I get going.........!! :-[ :-[ :-[
Ignore, as I am sure you will, my suggestion that you should stop raising the issues you do. You have of course every right to do so, even though I get frustrated with the issue of global warming / climate change and what I see as some dogma :P :P Perhaps even I will rejoin that debate and see your point of view ;) ;)
Anyway let's draw a line under all the bickering if you are willing too and debate as friends again seeking democratic debate without personal attack 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
All the very best Nick :-* :-* :-* :-*
Yes, time for few deep breaths, methinks. No harm done. ;)
:y :y :y :y
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May I just say that I too am loyal to Britain and its ancient establishments (despite its many faults) but I firmly believe that the old establishment has been rather quietly killed off in the last decade or so and been replaced by something quite sinister and worryingly undemocratic.
The men in pinstripe suits have been replaced by closet Marxists in Armani suits.
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May I just say that I too am loyal to Britain and its ancient establishments (despite its many faults) but I firmly believe that the old establishment has been rather quietly killed off in the last decade or so and been replaced by something quite sinister and worryingly undemocratic.
The men in pinstripe suits have been replaced by closet Marxists in Armani suits.
Agreed. :y :y :y
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May I just say that I too am loyal to Britain and its ancient establishments (despite its many faults) but I firmly believe that the old establishment has been rather quietly killed off in the last decade or so and been replaced by something quite sinister and worryingly undemocratic.
The men in pinstripe suits have been replaced by closet Marxists in Armani suits.
Agreed. :y :y :y
.....and links quite neatly back to here;
Since its founding in 1945, as essentially a diplomatic talking shop headquartered in the U.S., the U.N. has ballooned into a sort of post-colonial global empire, involving scores of thousands of staff, peacekeepers, agencies and proliferating agendas worldwide. With that has come a voracious hunger for money, in which U.N. planners keep casting an acquisitive eye at global commerce, looking for ways to tap in and open the spigots straight into the U.N.‘s coffers.
Read more here;
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/19434
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I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]
mutual obligations
The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.
Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.
Good morning all
Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.
For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.
And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum" :)
K
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I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]
mutual obligations
The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.
Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.
Good morning all
Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.
For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.
And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum" :)
K
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.............I havent laughed so much since auntie Mable caught her left tit in the mangle.
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I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]
mutual obligations
The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.
Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.
Good morning all
Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.
For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.
And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum" :)
K
I'll look forward to it K - the democratic deficit debate that is - however LGBT reminds me too much of reckless youth and Madame Jo Jo's ;D ;D ;D ;D :o :o
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I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]
mutual obligations
The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.
Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.
Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.
Good morning all
Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.
For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.
And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum" :)
K
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.............I havent laughed so much since auntie Mable caught her left tit in the mangle.
Lordy, Lordy A - does that song bring back memories for me or what? ;D ;D 8-) :y
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That is quite sad to hear. Has anything improved? (road network maybe?)
Sorry Varche for a slow reply.
Yes actually the roads did improve and that is maybe the only thing better.
But in fact we now have highways which are bloody expensive and sitt empy all year except summer >:(