Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: eliteomegaman on 26 May 2010, 18:36:54
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How to Gauge a Railway
The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet 8 1/2 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads.
Why did the English build them like that? The answer is because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did 'they' use that gauge then?
Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.
So, why did the wagons have that particularly odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts. So who built those old rutted roads?
Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe for their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts in the roads? Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for (or by) Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.
So the United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8 1/2 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman war chariot. Specifications and bureaucracies live forever.
So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's arse came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses!!!! :o :o :o
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Fascinating stuff :y
Jon
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Fascinating stuff :y
Jon
Bullshit...but fascinating ;D
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In fact there is no proof that the chariots, or any carts, actually had a 'standard' gauge of any type, let alone 4' 8 1/2". Indeed historians cannot prove exactly how that gauge came about, but certainly early tramways / railways were generally built on that base. When the first locomotive powered railways were built (by the way the first known railway dates to 2,245 BC in ancient Babylon!) 4' 8 1/2" was used by Trevithick and then Stevenson to name just two.
However, Isambard Kingdom Brunel decided to construct the Great Western Railway lines, which were given Royal Assent on the last day of August 1835, using the 'Broad' gauge of 7' 0", although this was amended by him to 7' 0 1/4" to allow extra clearances on turnouts. This is considered by many, including me, to be the best gauge, and if it had been nationally adopted would have allowed for faster, heavier, greater capacity, and far more stable trains. However the Royal Gauges Commission of 1845 decided that because the majority of railways had by then been built using the "standard gauge", and not least the lobbying by a certain Mr Stevenson carried more weight, it was ruled that all new railways would be built to 4' 8 1/2".
On Sunday the 22nd May 1892, the last of the broad gauge track was converted to standard gauge, ready for exclusively standard guage trains on Monday 23rd May, 1892.
This was the dump at Swindon after the end of broad gauge, with engines either awaiting dismantling or conversion to 4' 8 1/2".
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/EndofBroadGauge.png)
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/BroadGaugeDump.png)
A modern Gauge Measuring device:
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/Gaugemeasuring.png)
;) ;)
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boring...
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boring...[/quote]
to you maybe, not me or lizzie thankyou. >:(
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boring...
It might be 'boring' to u my friend but as the subject is directed at the beautiful :-* ;) Lizzie!! who is an expert in this field may i suggest u read another topic :P :P :P!!
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boring...
It might be 'boring' to u my friend but as the subject is directed at the beautiful :-* ;) Lizzie!! who is an expert in this field may i suggest u read another topic :P :P :P!!
well said, as i am of the same ilk as lizzie i find this very interesting as both my grandfather & father worked at derby loco works & i was also involved with the midland railway trust.
some great pictures of the broad guage lizzie. :y
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Thank you all! :-* :-*
So have another picture, this time of one of the last broad gauge trains, double headed, to pass through Didcot in 1892:
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/broadgauge_01.jpg)
:y :y
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must admit lizzie, they were great looking machines & so many got scrapped. :'(
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boring...
It might be 'boring' to u my friend but as the subject is directed at the beautiful :-* ;) Lizzie!! who is an expert in this field may i suggest u read another topic :P :P :P!!
well said, as i am of the same ilk as lizzie i find this very interesting as both my grandfather & father worked at derby loco works & i was also involved with the midland railway trust.
some great pictures of the broad guage lizzie. :y
Unfortunately i've only seen the 'one' picture of that great broad Lizzie & thats her entry pic ;)
Or am i barking up the wrong tree :-/ :-? :-[!!!!
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My Goodness! wasn't Britain 'Great' with a vengeance back in those days? I could feel my chest swelling just looking at all that beautifully crafted machinery, and each piece with it's own Soul! This is one of the reasons getting old is a bonus not a curse ;D :y
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My Goodness! wasn't Britain 'Great' with a vengeance back in those days? I could feel my chest swelling just looking at all that beautifully crafted machinery, and each piece with it's own Soul! This is one of the reasons getting old is a bonus not a curse ;D :y
Yes indeed Phil, and with the likes of Brunel around there was a strong willingness to push the boundaries, take calculated risks, and generally be bold in a passionate desire to go where no one had gone before! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Pure greatness came forth from such thinking! :-* :-* 8-) 8-)
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Absolutely Lizzie! :y Don't you just wish some of those ethics and 'get up & go' were more prevalent today? :-/ ;)
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I am trying to find out about some early high power Diesels.
Found these two - not sure if they are the ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_4-8%2B8-4-750/8-DE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_DR-12-8-1500/2
But I was sure there was a 4 engine 3000bhp 1950s built loco of around 300 tons but nearest were these two.
I was going to use them to show how much better UK designs were and 10% more power and 1/3rd the weight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_DP1
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I am trying to find out about some early high power Diesels.
Found these two - not sure if they are the ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_4-8%2B8-4-750/8-DE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_DR-12-8-1500/2
But I was sure there was a 4 engine 3000bhp 1950s built loco of around 300 tons but nearest were these two.
I was going to use them to show how much better UK designs were and 10% more power and 1/3rd the weight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_DP1
wasnt the fell loco a 4 engine thing, designed by a colonel fell. bit of a disaster & scrapped at derby i think. maybe not the one your thinking of though.
total traction bhp 2060 built at derby 1950 :y
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I am trying to find out about some early high power Diesels.
Found these two - not sure if they are the ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_4-8%2B8-4-750/8-DE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_DR-12-8-1500/2
But I was sure there was a 4 engine 3000bhp 1950s built loco of around 300 tons but nearest were these two.
I was going to use them to show how much better UK designs were and 10% more power and 1/3rd the weight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_DP1
wasnt the fell loco a 4 engine thing, designed by a colonel fell. bit of a disaster & scrapped at derby i think. maybe not the one your thinking of though.
total traction bhp 2060 built at derby 1950 :y
Not that one, a US designed and South America ran jobby early 50s lots of wheels about 300 tons 4 power units (not sure how many units 1, 2 or 4), nearest I can find are the Baldwin 2DoDo2 s.
Anyway these sort were the most powerful Diesels in the world until 1955 when a British loco took the crown.
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I am trying to find out about some early high power Diesels.
Found these two - not sure if they are the ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_4-8%2B8-4-750/8-DE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_DR-12-8-1500/2
But I was sure there was a 4 engine 3000bhp 1950s built loco of around 300 tons but nearest were these two.
I was going to use them to show how much better UK designs were and 10% more power and 1/3rd the weight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_DP1
wasnt the fell loco a 4 engine thing, designed by a colonel fell. bit of a disaster & scrapped at derby i think. maybe not the one your thinking of though.
total traction bhp 2060 built at derby 1950 :y
Not that one, a US designed and South America ran jobby early 50s lots of wheels about 300 tons 4 power units (not sure how many units 1, 2 or 4), nearest I can find are the Baldwin 2DoDo2 s.
Anyway these sort were the most powerful Diesels in the world until 1955 when a British loco took the crown.
the deltics 3300. great loco`s. :y
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Kestrel - 4000 metric horse power - Single Sulzer 16 cylinder 16LVA24
(http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/images/RapD0280.jpg)
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Falcon - Twin engine 2800hp.....but thats in 1961 and only weighing a shade over 100 tons (compared to the EE and Brush units at 130+ tons)
Here she is on the Lickey incline showing how she can re-start an 18 coach train!
(http://www.traintesting.com/images/TC4%20with%20falcon%20on%20Lickey%202-62.jpg)
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Kestrel - 4000 metric horse power - Single Sulzer 16 cylinder 16LVA24
:y I`m in love: http://www.derbysulzers.com/HS4000.html
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boring...
if boring why you reading it :o
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Kestrel - 4000 metric horse power - Single Sulzer 16 cylinder 16LVA24
(http://www.derbysulzers.com/hs400016lva24.jpg)
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Kestrel - 4000 metric horse power - Single Sulzer 16 cylinder 16LVA24
(http://www.derbysulzers.com/hs400016lva24.jpg)
Wow Debs! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
What a lovely engine that is :-* :-*.
It looks by its neatness as though it was very efficient in its day. Neat, tidy, and well, eye pleasing, designed engines meant in steam super efficiency. With the internal combustion engine that rule surely still applies! The designers no doubt had to watch the axle weights as much as they did in steam days, before the civil engineers started to moan loadly!! :D :D :D
I just want to start stripping it down to see whats inside and how it all works 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-).
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Kestrel - 4000 metric horse power - Single Sulzer 16 cylinder 16LVA24
(http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/images/RapD0280.jpg)
That is Falcon, and the chap that runs the site is a school friend of mine.
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what a great link you put up debs :y :y
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I was going to use them to show how much better UK designs were and 10% more power and 1/3rd the weight
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_DP1
I've been in the cab of that Blue 'Deltic' as a young whippersnapper! :)
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Lizzie are you aware of this site?
http://www.preserved-diesels.co.uk/
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Kestrel - 4000 metric horse power - Single Sulzer 16 cylinder 16LVA24
(http://www.derbysulzers.com/hs400016lva24.jpg)
Wow Debs! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
What a lovely engine that is :-* :-*.
It looks by its neatness as though it was very efficient in its day. Neat, tidy, and well, eye pleasing, designed engines meant in steam super efficiency. With the internal combustion engine that rule surely still applies! The designers no doubt had to watch the axle weights as much as they did in steam days, before the civil engineers started to moan loadly!! :D :D :D
I just want to start stripping it down to see whats inside and how it all works 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-).
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE WANTED TO DO TO U ever since i first saw your pic hahaha!! ;)
Ok ok yes i am a perv BUT it was ME that started this topic off!! :D :D :D
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In fact there is no proof that the chariots, or any carts, actually had a 'standard' gauge of any type, let alone 4' 8 1/2". Indeed historians cannot prove exactly how that gauge came about, but certainly early tramways / railways were generally built on that base. When the first locomotive powered railways were built (by the way the first known railway dates to 2,245 BC in ancient Babylon!) 4' 8 1/2" was used by Trevithick and then Stevenson to name just two.
However, Isambard Kingdom Brunel decided to construct the Great Western Railway lines, which were given Royal Assent on the last day of August 1835, using the 'Broad' gauge of 7' 0", although this was amended by him to 7' 0 1/4" to allow extra clearances on turnouts. This is considered by many, including me, to be the best gauge, and if it had been nationally adopted would have allowed for faster, heavier, greater capacity, and far more stable trains. However the Royal Gauges Commission of 1845 decided that because the majority of railways had by then been built using the "standard gauge", and not least the lobbying by a certain Mr Stevenson carried more weight, it was ruled that all new railways would be built to 4' 8 1/2".
On Sunday the 22nd May 1892, the last of the broad gauge track was converted to standard gauge, ready for exclusively standard guage trains on Monday 23rd May, 1892.
This was the dump at Swindon after the end of broad gauge, with engines either awaiting dismantling or conversion to 4' 8 1/2".
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/EndofBroadGauge.png)
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/BroadGaugeDump.png)
A modern Gauge Measuring device:
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/Gaugemeasuring.png)
;) ;)
Lizzie, you may be interested in this (little known?) fact from a former BR Director:- Interesting the high tech gauging machine shown - the recent Western Regional Civil Engineer of BR (up to 1994) still used Brunel's actual and personal gauging stick which was, when folded , standard gauge but when extended covered the broad gauge!
:y :y :y
-
In fact there is no proof that the chariots, or any carts, actually had a 'standard' gauge of any type, let alone 4' 8 1/2". Indeed historians cannot prove exactly how that gauge came about, but certainly early tramways / railways were generally built on that base. When the first locomotive powered railways were built (by the way the first known railway dates to 2,245 BC in ancient Babylon!) 4' 8 1/2" was used by Trevithick and then Stevenson to name just two.
However, Isambard Kingdom Brunel decided to construct the Great Western Railway lines, which were given Royal Assent on the last day of August 1835, using the 'Broad' gauge of 7' 0", although this was amended by him to 7' 0 1/4" to allow extra clearances on turnouts. This is considered by many, including me, to be the best gauge, and if it had been nationally adopted would have allowed for faster, heavier, greater capacity, and far more stable trains. However the Royal Gauges Commission of 1845 decided that because the majority of railways had by then been built using the "standard gauge", and not least the lobbying by a certain Mr Stevenson carried more weight, it was ruled that all new railways would be built to 4' 8 1/2".
On Sunday the 22nd May 1892, the last of the broad gauge track was converted to standard gauge, ready for exclusively standard guage trains on Monday 23rd May, 1892.
This was the dump at Swindon after the end of broad gauge, with engines either awaiting dismantling or conversion to 4' 8 1/2".
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/EndofBroadGauge.png)
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/BroadGaugeDump.png)
A modern Gauge Measuring device:
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/Trains%20Planes%20Buses%20%20Cars/Gaugemeasuring.png)
;) ;)
Lizzie, you may be interested in this (little known?) fact from a former BR Director:- Interesting the high tech gauging machine shown - the recent Western Regional Civil Engineer of BR (up to 1994) still used Brunel's actual and personal gauging stick which was, when folded , standard gauge but when extended covered the broad gauge!
:y :y :y
Yes thanks I had seen that on a television programme, and it is a simple but very effective device 8-) 8-).
I am always pleased to think that although Brunel knew after 1845 broad guage would start to disappear, that he never lived to see it's full demise in 1892. Like a kick in the teeth, and not to the eventual good for the railways in Great Britain. :'( :'(
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Lizzie are you aware of this site?
http://www.preserved-diesels.co.uk/
Thanks for that! :y :y :y
That is a great site, but I didn't like the page on "ex-preserved" engines that have either been sold on for new commercial use or scrapped!!!! :o :o :o
Anyway some wonderful photo's and details, with even what preserved railway has what preserved diesels. Looked up the Mid-Hants of course!! :D :D ;)