Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 31 May 2010, 08:32:17
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The politics of the Middle East are, as most know, very complicated with no simple answers apparently available to resolve to the satisfaction to all. The Gaza and Israeli situation is just one part of this complex issue.
But how is it that Israel can be so unconcerned with world opinion; so dismissive of human rights issues; can act like Nazis, and generally can be so stupid as to ignore the possible affects of actions that they take which give Israel instant bad PR????
During the night Israeli commandos stormed a "convey" of ships, in International waters, that was bringing in quote "15,000 tons of aid" to Israeli blockaded Gaza. They managed to kill "at least 10 activists", injuring many others, whilst 4 soldiers were also hurt, one seriously when his own gun was turned on himself!!
In pictures shown on Turkish TV (well done to Cem's nation :y :y :y :y) we see commandos storming one particular ship, that consisted of unarmed oldish men and woman "activists". Israeli claimed these activists attacked their troops with sticks, axes and "firearms"!! Oh yeah!! ::) ::) ::)
So Israel (highly trained) commandos attack an aid ship in International waters, that is on its way to assist an already controversial area of the world, and kill apparently non-armed activists carrying out an act to uphold human rights (Gaza is being starved of necessary goods on a daily basis, with the UN even claiming it needs 60,000 tons a day!), and they expect the world to say "well that's ok"????? >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
This would seem to be then another example of 'gung ho' Israel. When is this to stop?? When the USA stops its support? When pigs fly!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
So arms may be imported into Gaza without the blockade, but that gives Israel no justification in storming ships in International waters, using guns and killing unarmed civilians, to force them into an Israeli port, without the approval of the UN. >:(
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>:( >:( >:( >:(
shooting at unarmed civils >:( >:(
israel deserves to get a nuke in the head..
I'm not anti semitic, but attacking ships which bring food cant be explained in any manner.. >:(
and for israel.. tell to my hat!
attacking a civil ship with our flag no doubt is a reason for war! we will see..
ps: thanks Lizzie, for your care :y :y
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>:( >:( >:( >:(
shooting at unarmed civils >:( >:(
israel deserves to get a nuke in the head..
I'm not anti semitic, but attacking ships which bring food cant be explained in any manner.. >:(
and for israel.. tell to my hat!
attacking a civil ship with our flag no doubt is a reason for war! we will see..
ps: thanks Lizzie, for your care :y :y
:y :y :y
Yes Cem my family background is Jewish but there is no way that Israel now represents the Jewish nation. It acts like the very people it hates most; Nazis!! >:( >:( >:(
Israel has forgotten how to act properly as a civilised democracy, and committing an act of piracy at the very least, if not an act of war, yes maybe against Turkey a Muslim state let alone Palistians, killing innocent people in the process (forget their meaningless apologies now made!) is something they MUST be punished for.
Israel are apparently bracing themselves for reprisals from Palestine, which they deserve. But they should be fearing far more than that, but no doubt the United States will still act as their minder!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
Barack Obama bring about change PLEASE!!
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>:( >:( >:( >:(
shooting at unarmed civils >:( >:(
israel deserves to get a nuke in the head..
I'm not anti semitic, but attacking ships which bring food cant be explained in any manner.. >:(
and for israel.. tell to my hat!
attacking a civil ship with our flag no doubt is a reason for war! we will see..
ps: thanks Lizzie, for your care :y :y
:y :y :y
Yes Cem my family background is Jewish but there is no way that Israel now represents the Jewish nation. It acts like the very people it hates most; Nazis!! >:( >:( >:(
Israel has forgotten how to act properly as a civilised democracy, and committing an act of piracy at the very least, if not an act of war, yes maybe against Turkey a Muslim state let alone Palistians, killing innocent people in the process (forget their meaningless apologies now made!) is something they MUST be punished for.
Israel are apparently bracing themselves for reprisals from Palestine, which they deserve. But they should be fearing far more than that, but no doubt the United States will still act as their minder!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
Barack Obama bring about change PLEASE!!
Lizzie, I think Israel forgot how much we helped their citizens who escaped from Hitler!
But now time for precautions .. :(
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I'd like to comment on this post & say that i neither condemn nor condone what happened as i wasn't there & havn't seen the footage on tv!
But what i can do is post a clip from a recognised Israeli newspaper ..............
Israel: Activists on Gaza sail had weapons
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon holds press briefing several hours after IDF takes over flotilla headed to Strip, accuses fleet's organizers of having ties to Hamas, al-Qaeda
(Ronen Medzini Published: 05.31.10, 11:24 / Israel News)
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon said Monday morning that the pro-Palestinian activists on the flotilla sailing to the Gaza Strip had weapons on board. At least 15 people were killed in the raid and some 50 were injured. Six IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) soldiers were also hurt.
In a first official Israeli response to the deadly Israel Defense Forces takeover of the ships, Ayalon accused the sail's organizers of having ties to the Hamas and al-Qaeda terror organizations.
"It was a provocation," Ayalon said during a press briefing. "On the deck we found weapons which were used against the forces. The organizers' intent was violent and the results were unfortunate.
"Israel regrets the loss of life. We called the organizers once and again the stop the provocations. We asked to transfer the aid in legitimate means. We promise that the aid will be transferred through the Red Cross and through our people."
The deputy foreign minister added, "After the repeated calls, which were unanswered by the people on the boats, they were told that they would not be able to break the blockade. The organizers failed to obey the army's non-violent calls.
"No sovereign state would tolerate such violence against a law-abiding state and its people. We call on all relevant elements to work together to solve the situation."
As for the Israeli activities after the raid, Ayalon said, "We are managing the crisis. At the moment the instruction is to cooperate and create the bridges and platforms in order to bring the affair to an end.
"The operational needs dictate a certain operation from a certain distance, and these are the considerations overcoming any other consideration. There was a very close cooperation between Hamas and an external organization. There was economic and operative cooperation."
Ayalon added that at least two guns were found on board the ships and were used by the activists to fire at the soldiers.
Addressing the relations between Israel and Turkey, Ayalon said, "I don't view this as a matter between us and Turkey. The organizers are a private body affiliated with the terror organizations and Hamas. Israel has no interest in a conflict with any country, and we will never initiate a conflict with any country. We call on everyone to come to their senses in order to calm the situation down."
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I'd like to comment on this post & say that i neither condemn nor condone what happened as i wasn't there & havn't seen the footage on tv!
But what i can do is post a clip from a recognised Israeli newspaper ..............
Israel: Activists on Gaza sail had weapons
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon holds press briefing several hours after IDF takes over flotilla headed to Strip, accuses fleet's organizers of having ties to Hamas, al-Qaeda
(Ronen Medzini Published: 05.31.10, 11:24 / Israel News)
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon said Monday morning that the pro-Palestinian activists on the flotilla sailing to the Gaza Strip had weapons on board. At least 15 people were killed in the raid and some 50 were injured. Six IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) soldiers were also hurt.
In a first official Israeli response to the deadly Israel Defense Forces takeover of the ships, Ayalon accused the sail's organizers of having ties to the Hamas and al-Qaeda terror organizations.
"It was a provocation," Ayalon said during a press briefing. "On the deck we found weapons which were used against the forces. The organizers' intent was violent and the results were unfortunate.
"Israel regrets the loss of life. We called the organizers once and again the stop the provocations. We asked to transfer the aid in legitimate means. We promise that the aid will be transferred through the Red Cross and through our people."
The deputy foreign minister added, "After the repeated calls, which were unanswered by the people on the boats, they were told that they would not be able to break the blockade. The organizers failed to obey the army's non-violent calls.
"No sovereign state would tolerate such violence against a law-abiding state and its people. We call on all relevant elements to work together to solve the situation."
As for the Israeli activities after the raid, Ayalon said, "We are managing the crisis. At the moment the instruction is to cooperate and create the bridges and platforms in order to bring the affair to an end.
"The operational needs dictate a certain operation from a certain distance, and these are the considerations overcoming any other consideration. There was a very close cooperation between Hamas and an external organization. There was economic and operative cooperation."
Ayalon added that at least two guns were found on board the ships and were used by the activists to fire at the soldiers.
Addressing the relations between Israel and Turkey, Ayalon said, "I don't view this as a matter between us and Turkey. The organizers are a private body affiliated with the terror organizations and Hamas. Israel has no interest in a conflict with any country, and we will never initiate a conflict with any country. We call on everyone to come to their senses in order to calm the situation down."
Wow!! Two guns!! ::) ::) ::)
The rest is what you would expect Israel to say! ::) ::) ::)
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I'd like to comment on this post & say that i neither condemn nor condone what happened as i wasn't there & havn't seen the footage on tv!
But what i can do is post a clip from a recognised Israeli newspaper ..............
Israel: Activists on Gaza sail had weapons
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon holds press briefing several hours after IDF takes over flotilla headed to Strip, accuses fleet's organizers of having ties to Hamas, al-Qaeda
(Ronen Medzini Published: 05.31.10, 11:24 / Israel News)
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon said Monday morning that the pro-Palestinian activists on the flotilla sailing to the Gaza Strip had weapons on board. At least 15 people were killed in the raid and some 50 were injured. Six IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) soldiers were also hurt.
In a first official Israeli response to the deadly Israel Defense Forces takeover of the ships, Ayalon accused the sail's organizers of having ties to the Hamas and al-Qaeda terror organizations.
"It was a provocation," Ayalon said during a press briefing. "On the deck we found weapons which were used against the forces. The organizers' intent was violent and the results were unfortunate.
"Israel regrets the loss of life. We called the organizers once and again the stop the provocations. We asked to transfer the aid in legitimate means. We promise that the aid will be transferred through the Red Cross and through our people."
The deputy foreign minister added, "After the repeated calls, which were unanswered by the people on the boats, they were told that they would not be able to break the blockade. The organizers failed to obey the army's non-violent calls.
"No sovereign state would tolerate such violence against a law-abiding state and its people. We call on all relevant elements to work together to solve the situation."
As for the Israeli activities after the raid, Ayalon said, "We are managing the crisis. At the moment the instruction is to cooperate and create the bridges and platforms in order to bring the affair to an end.
"The operational needs dictate a certain operation from a certain distance, and these are the considerations overcoming any other consideration. There was a very close cooperation between Hamas and an external organization. There was economic and operative cooperation."
Ayalon added that at least two guns were found on board the ships and were used by the activists to fire at the soldiers.
Addressing the relations between Israel and Turkey, Ayalon said, "I don't view this as a matter between us and Turkey. The organizers are a private body affiliated with the terror organizations and Hamas. Israel has no interest in a conflict with any country, and we will never initiate a conflict with any country. We call on everyone to come to their senses in order to calm the situation down."
Lizzie exactly what would u like Israel to say that hasn't already been said?? :-?
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I will comment on this later but for the moment I will say that I have been and will remain a firm supporter of Israel.
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I'd like to comment on this post & say that i neither condemn nor condone what happened as i wasn't there & havn't seen the footage on tv!
But what i can do is post a clip from a recognised Israeli newspaper ..............
Israel: Activists on Gaza sail had weapons
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon holds press briefing several hours after IDF takes over flotilla headed to Strip, accuses fleet's organizers of having ties to Hamas, al-Qaeda
(Ronen Medzini Published: 05.31.10, 11:24 / Israel News)
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon said Monday morning that the pro-Palestinian activists on the flotilla sailing to the Gaza Strip had weapons on board. At least 15 people were killed in the raid and some 50 were injured. Six IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) soldiers were also hurt.
In a first official Israeli response to the deadly Israel Defense Forces takeover of the ships, Ayalon accused the sail's organizers of having ties to the Hamas and al-Qaeda terror organizations.
"It was a provocation," Ayalon said during a press briefing. "On the deck we found weapons which were used against the forces. The organizers' intent was violent and the results were unfortunate.
"Israel regrets the loss of life. We called the organizers once and again the stop the provocations. We asked to transfer the aid in legitimate means. We promise that the aid will be transferred through the Red Cross and through our people."
The deputy foreign minister added, "After the repeated calls, which were unanswered by the people on the boats, they were told that they would not be able to break the blockade. The organizers failed to obey the army's non-violent calls.
"No sovereign state would tolerate such violence against a law-abiding state and its people. We call on all relevant elements to work together to solve the situation."
As for the Israeli activities after the raid, Ayalon said, "We are managing the crisis. At the moment the instruction is to cooperate and create the bridges and platforms in order to bring the affair to an end.
"The operational needs dictate a certain operation from a certain distance, and these are the considerations overcoming any other consideration. There was a very close cooperation between Hamas and an external organization. There was economic and operative cooperation."
Ayalon added that at least two guns were found on board the ships and were used by the activists to fire at the soldiers.
Addressing the relations between Israel and Turkey, Ayalon said, "I don't view this as a matter between us and Turkey. The organizers are a private body affiliated with the terror organizations and Hamas. Israel has no interest in a conflict with any country, and we will never initiate a conflict with any country. We call on everyone to come to their senses in order to calm the situation down."
Lizzie exactly what would u like Israel to say that hasn't already been said?? :-?
It's too late to say anything! ::) ::)
Israel have acted with military force in International water without the approval of the UN and killed people trying to help the Palestinian cause against the aggressive stance of a power who wants to determine the future of the whole of that region.
As I stated from the start it IS a complex political situation, but Israel continues to act with the bullet and the bomb killing yet more people without using all diplomatic channels. It is wrong, plain wrong. The Palestinians have a right to their own state as much as Israel does, and Israel is an occupying power of 'the Strip' against the wishes of the UN . ;) ;)
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some facts;
Israel is at least pushing Turkey on the iran side..
is forgetting the big fight in Turkey and pushing the votes in the arms of religious parties..
relations with Hamas and El-queda ;D ;D
they must not forget, who crop wind will harvest storm.. soon they will have bombs exploding in their cities.. and I hope they dont ask why :D
Israel stayed too long with arabs :D :D :D
and apparently they become a terorist country ;D
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some facts;
Israel is at least pushing Turkey on the iran side..
is forgetting the big fight in Turkey and pushing the votes in the arms of religious parties..
relations with Hamas and El-queda ;D ;D
they must not forget, who crop wind will harvest storm.. soon they will have bombs exploding in their cities.. and I hope they dont ask why :D
Israel stayed too long with arabs :D :D :D
and apparently they become a terorist country ;D
Exactly Cem. :y :y
Israel's little excursion will have widescale implications for the region yet again! >:( >:(
The West already faces the North and Sorth Korean situation, the Iranian nuclear stance, and the last thing the region needs is Israel rocking the boat with its miltary might. ::) ::) ::)
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some facts;
Israel is at least pushing Turkey on the iran side..
is forgetting the big fight in Turkey and pushing the votes in the arms of religious parties..
relations with Hamas and El-queda ;D ;D
they must not forget, who crop wind will harvest storm.. soon they will have bombs exploding in their cities.. and I hope they dont ask why :D
Israel stayed too long with arabs :D :D :D
and apparently they become a terorist country ;D
Exactly Cem. :y :y
Israel's little excursion will have widescale implications for the region yet again! >:( >:(
The West already faces the North and Sorth Korean situation, the Iranian nuclear stance, and the last thing the region needs is Israel rocking the boat with its miltary might. ::) ::) ::)
headings from haaretz :
we will be recorded as fools in the history..
yep.. you will :D
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some facts;
Israel is at least pushing Turkey on the iran side..
is forgetting the big fight in Turkey and pushing the votes in the arms of religious parties..
relations with Hamas and El-queda ;D ;D
they must not forget, who crop wind will harvest storm.. soon they will have bombs exploding in their cities.. and I hope they dont ask why :D
Israel stayed too long with arabs :D :D :D
and apparently they become a terorist country ;D
Exactly Cem. :y :y
Israel's little excursion will have widescale implications for the region yet again! >:( >:(
The West already faces the North and Sorth Korean situation, the Iranian nuclear stance, and the last thing the region needs is Israel rocking the boat with its miltary might. ::) ::) ::)
headings from haaretz :
we will be recorded as fools in the history..
yep.. you will :D
That led me to a great link Cem, thanks! :y :y :y :y
http://www.haaretz.com/
The comments are particularly illuminating with a feeling coming through of "here we go again!" ::) ::) ::)
I am also please with the obvious questioning going on of Israeli tactics in the various reports. 8-) 8-)
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it's difficult to judge Israel by our own standards as the constant fear created by being surrounded by hostile countries informs every military decision, that said for Israel to attack an aid ship in international waters is an act of piracy, and i think they're regretting it as I don't get the feeling Obama will turn as blind an eye as previous US presidents......it'll be interesting to see how US media handle the story :o
i think a lot of western governments are getting a bit tired of Israels constant aggression, and in this case the boat was inspected by Turkish officials before departing - Israel will try and spin this as an bunch of mercs armed to the teeth, instead of an international humanitarian effort :(
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The politics of the Middle East are, as most know, very complicated with no simple answers apparently available to resolve to the satisfaction to all. The Gaza and Israeli situation is just one part of this complex issue.
But how is it that Israel can be so unconcerned with world opinion; so dismissive of human rights issues; can act like Nazis, and generally can be so stupid as to ignore the possible affects of actions that they take which give Israel instant bad PR????
During the night Israeli commandos stormed a "convey" of ships, in International waters, that was bringing in quote "15,000 tons of aid" to Israeli blockaded Gaza. They managed to kill "at least 10 activists", injuring many others, whilst 4 soldiers were also hurt, one seriously when his own gun was turned on himself!!
In pictures shown on Turkish TV (well done to Cem's nation :y :y :y :y) we see commandos storming one particular ship, that consisted of unarmed oldish men and woman "activists". Israeli claimed these activists attacked their troops with sticks, axes and "firearms"!! Oh yeah!! ::) ::) ::)
So Israel (highly trained) commandos attack an aid ship in International waters, that is on its way to assist an already controversial area of the world, and kill apparently non-armed activists carrying out an act to uphold human rights (Gaza is being starved of necessary goods on a daily basis, with the UN even claiming it needs 60,000 tons a day!), and they expect the world to say "well that's ok"????? >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
This would seem to be then another example of 'gung ho' Israel. When is this to stop?? When the USA stops its support? When pigs fly!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
So arms may be imported into Gaza without the blockade, but that gives Israel no justification in storming ships in International waters, using guns and killing unarmed civilians, to force them into an Israeli port, without the approval of the UN. >:(
Absolutely spot on Lizzie. Just for once I would love the Americans to stand up to Israel.....and tell them that their behaviour is unacceptable.
It seems that Israel answers to no one ......and is completely dismissive of the U.N. and the rest of the world. Obama needs to speak out.
Israel ......the most "out of control" country in the world in my view.....and yes I include North Korea. A preemptive strike on Iran is not out of the question...sadly. :-/ :-/
The destruction and the loss of life (many of whom) were women and children as they invaded both Palestine and Lebanon was a disgrace. :-/ :-/
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The politics of the Middle East are, as most know, very complicated with no simple answers apparently available to resolve to the satisfaction to all. The Gaza and Israeli situation is just one part of this complex issue.
But how is it that Israel can be so unconcerned with world opinion; so dismissive of human rights issues; can act like Nazis, and generally can be so stupid as to ignore the possible affects of actions that they take which give Israel instant bad PR????
During the night Israeli commandos stormed a "convey" of ships, in International waters, that was bringing in quote "15,000 tons of aid" to Israeli blockaded Gaza. They managed to kill "at least 10 activists", injuring many others, whilst 4 soldiers were also hurt, one seriously when his own gun was turned on himself!!
In pictures shown on Turkish TV (well done to Cem's nation :y :y :y :y) we see commandos storming one particular ship, that consisted of unarmed oldish men and woman "activists". Israeli claimed these activists attacked their troops with sticks, axes and "firearms"!! Oh yeah!! ::) ::) ::)
So Israel (highly trained) commandos attack an aid ship in International waters, that is on its way to assist an already controversial area of the world, and kill apparently non-armed activists carrying out an act to uphold human rights (Gaza is being starved of necessary goods on a daily basis, with the UN even claiming it needs 60,000 tons a day!), and they expect the world to say "well that's ok"????? >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
This would seem to be then another example of 'gung ho' Israel. When is this to stop?? When the USA stops its support? When pigs fly!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
So arms may be imported into Gaza without the blockade, but that gives Israel no justification in storming ships in International waters, using guns and killing unarmed civilians, to force them into an Israeli port, without the approval of the UN. >:(
Absolutely spot on Lizzie. Just for once I would love the Americans to stand up to Israel.....and tell them that their behaviour is unacceptable.
It seems that Israel answers to no one ......and is completely dismissive of the U.N. and the rest of the world. Obama needs to speak out.
Israel ......the most "out of control" country in the world in my view.....and yes I include North Korea. A preemptive strike on Iran is not out of the question...sadly. :-/ :-/
The destruction and the loss of life (many of whom) were women and children as they invaded both Palestine and Lebanon was a disgrace. :-/ :-/
I am not holding my breath for that Optimist, but just maybe "Change" Obama will do something different at a time when American/Israeli relations are at a low ebb! ::) ::) ;) ;)
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A disgrace once again. Israel acts like a loose cannon because it knows it won't get censured and even if it does it won't care.
Where the hell is the UN? This is the body that should have real teeth and real backing. Till then tin pot dictators, the Israelis and even the USA will do just what they like, when and where. It is time the world grew up. It is 2010 not 1010 for goodness sake.
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It is now being reported that "up to 19 people" were killed by the Israeli's, with 27 admitted to two hospitals. :'( :'( :'( :'(
Many of those were apparently Turkish* (can you confirm that from your end Cem??) along with some from other countries. :'( :'( :'(
International condemnation is being heaped on the Israeli action, which is still operating an illegal, non UN approved, blockade of Gaza. The UN is holding an emergency Security Council meeting, with the EU also condemning the affair.
If anyone is wondering why the Palestinians should be so angry with Israel then read this UN site article on the situation:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34781&Cr=Palestin&Cr1=
:'( :'( :'(
PS * 2/3rds on board the six ships were Turkish nationals. :'( :'(
This action by Israel is becoming even more outrageous by the minute!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( Condolences to your nation Cem! :'( :'( :'( :'( I stand with you! 8-) 8-)
FREE PALESTINE
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/All%20Things%20Interesting/PalistineFlag.gif)
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
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It is now being reported that "up to 19 people" were killed by the Israeli's, with 27 admitted to two hospitals. :'( :'( :'( :'(
Many of those were apparently Turkish* (can you confirm that from your end Cem??) along with some from other countries. :'( :'( :'(
International condemnation is being heaped on the Israeli action, which is still operating an illegal, non UN approved, blockade of Gaza. The UN is holding an emergency Security Council meeting, with the EU also condemning the affair.
If anyone is wondering why the Palestinians should be so angry with Israel then read this UN site article on the situation:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34781&Cr=Palestin&Cr1=
:'( :'( :'(
PS * 2/3rds on board the six ships were Turkish nationals. :'( :'(
This action by Israel is becoming even more outrageous by the minute!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( Condolences to your nation Cem! :'( :'( :'( :'( I stand with you! 8-) 8-)
FREE PALESTINE
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/All%20Things%20Interesting/PalistineFlag.gif)
no actual communication with ships now.. :-/
the numbers are from israel , they say 9 Turkish dead, number of injured not known.. :(
will see within half hour in the news..
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the actual trouble started when the ottoman empire decided to sell those lands >:(
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
Spot on PF! :y
This time though may, yes just may be different, with iinternational pressure now building fast to sort Israel out. Will the USA respond? Time will tell. I personally hope so a.s.a.p. as this situation is intolerable >:( >:( >:(
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I'm afraid usa will do nothing..
they need to rescue their federal reserve bank first :D :D ;D
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
.......ain't that the truth PF.... :y
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
:y :y :y :y
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It is now being reported that "up to 19 people" were killed by the Israeli's, with 27 admitted to two hospitals. :'( :'( :'( :'(
Many of those were apparently Turkish* (can you confirm that from your end Cem??) along with some from other countries. :'( :'( :'(
International condemnation is being heaped on the Israeli action, which is still operating an illegal, non UN approved, blockade of Gaza. The UN is holding an emergency Security Council meeting, with the EU also condemning the affair.
If anyone is wondering why the Palestinians should be so angry with Israel then read this UN site article on the situation:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34781&Cr=Palestin&Cr1=
:'( :'( :'(
PS * 2/3rds on board the six ships were Turkish nationals. :'( :'(
This action by Israel is becoming even more outrageous by the minute!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( Condolences to your nation Cem! :'( :'( :'( :'( I stand with you! 8-) 8-)
FREE PALESTINE
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk247/lizziefreeman/All%20Things%20Interesting/PalistineFlag.gif)
no actual communication with ships now.. :-/
the numbers are from israel , they say 9 Turkish dead, number of injured not known.. :(
will see within half hour in the news..
Thanks Cem! :y :y
I would like to hear independent (away from the western media ::) ::)) Turkish views on this atrocity ;) ;)
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as far as I can see,
Israil soldiers came with boats like somali pirates..
they were unsuccessful ..
then they came with helicopters..
and start the fight.. my citizens try to defend them with some sticks abd bars..no gun..
and the soldiers go out of control and shoot everyone..and use bombs.. :o
their hurry was to cut the communication .. :(
now question is which idiot give permission for them to shoot..
its obvious that these people will resist.. :-/
now still no further info :(
and I must confess that this country is no more safe for israel citizens.. :(
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I'd like to comment on this post & say that i neither condemn nor condone what happened as i wasn't there & havn't seen the footage on tv!
But what i can do is post a clip from a recognised Israeli newspaper ..............
Israel: Activists on Gaza sail had weapons
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon holds press briefing several hours after IDF takes over flotilla headed to Strip, accuses fleet's organizers of having ties to Hamas, al-Qaeda
(Ronen Medzini Published: 05.31.10, 11:24 / Israel News)
Deputy Foreign Minister Daniel Ayalon said Monday morning that the pro-Palestinian activists on the flotilla sailing to the Gaza Strip had weapons on board. At least 15 people were killed in the raid and some 50 were injured. Six IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) soldiers were also hurt.
In a first official Israeli response to the deadly Israel Defense Forces takeover of the ships, Ayalon accused the sail's organizers of having ties to the Hamas and al-Qaeda terror organizations.
"It was a provocation," Ayalon said during a press briefing. "On the deck we found weapons which were used against the forces. The organizers' intent was violent and the results were unfortunate.
"Israel regrets the loss of life. We called the organizers once and again the stop the provocations. We asked to transfer the aid in legitimate means. We promise that the aid will be transferred through the Red Cross and through our people."
The deputy foreign minister added, "After the repeated calls, which were unanswered by the people on the boats, they were told that they would not be able to break the blockade. The organizers failed to obey the army's non-violent calls.
"No sovereign state would tolerate such violence against a law-abiding state and its people. We call on all relevant elements to work together to solve the situation."
As for the Israeli activities after the raid, Ayalon said, "We are managing the crisis. At the moment the instruction is to cooperate and create the bridges and platforms in order to bring the affair to an end.
"The operational needs dictate a certain operation from a certain distance, and these are the considerations overcoming any other consideration. There was a very close cooperation between Hamas and an external organization. There was economic and operative cooperation."
Ayalon added that at least two guns were found on board the ships and were used by the activists to fire at the soldiers.
Addressing the relations between Israel and Turkey, Ayalon said, "I don't view this as a matter between us and Turkey. The organizers are a private body affiliated with the terror organizations and Hamas. Israel has no interest in a conflict with any country, and we will never initiate a conflict with any country. We call on everyone to come to their senses in order to calm the situation down."
Absolute hypocracy - how long ago was it that Mosad carried out an assasination using counterfeit British passports? >:(
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I hav just read through this thread and am lost for words. I cant remember the last time I read such a load of misinfomed twaddle. Try living in a country which suffers constantly, year after year from terrorism and see if you still hold such views. Its easy to be an armchair pacifist. ::)
Isreal survives by takng no crap from anyone, I dont blame them. ;)
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I hav just read through this thread and am lost for words. I cant remember the last time I read such a load of misinfomed twaddle. Try living in a country which suffers constantly, year after year from terrorism and see if you still hold such views. Its easy to be an armchair pacifist. ::)
Isreal survives by takng no crap from anyone, I dont blame them. ;)
at least you can try respecting the dead >:(
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I hav just read through this thread and am lost for words. I cant remember the last time I read such a load of misinfomed twaddle. Try living in a country which suffers constantly, year after year from terrorism and see if you still hold such views. Its easy to be an armchair pacifist. ::)
Isreal survives by takng no crap from anyone, I dont blame them. ;)
I am so glad Albs that the majority of the international community does not agree with your point of view ;) ;)
Please read this further piece from the United Nations today:
[size=24]"[/size]
Also speaking out against today's raid was UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, who emphasized that “nothing can justify the appalling outcome of this operation.”
Calling for a probe into the incident, she underscored the need for accountability.
“I unequivocally condemn what appears to be disproportionate use of force, resulting in the killing and wounding of so many people attempting to bring much-needed aid to the people of Gaza, who have now been enduring a blockade for more than three years,” Ms. Pillay said.
She called on the Israeli Government to heed the “almost unanimous international view that the continued blockade of Gaza is both inhumane and illegal.”
The blockade, the High Commissioner pointed out, “lies at the heart of so many of the problems plaguing the Israel-Palestine situation, as does the impression that the Israeli Government treats international law with perpetual disdain.[size=24]"[/size]
For the full article on the UN web site go to:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34863&Cr=gaza&Cr1=
:y :y
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The UN is a completely discredited laughing stock, it has been or a long time. Few peope (and certainly not the Isrealis) take any notice of them. ;)
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as said: truth cant be painted with lies..
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
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I started this tread stressing it is a complex situation, but this latest incident is another example of Israeli 'action'
You want facts? Read the information contained with the previously quoted UN web pages, and this one from an American site:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Why raise such a complex issue on the OOF?
Well why not in an adult environment. It is different that continually talking about the more minor things in life! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
It is important we try and understand what is happening in the whole of the Middle East and surrounding regions. It could well be truley affecting us soon :'(.
But of course those who want to ignore the thread can; that is absolutely ok! 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
We certainly do & I'm one of them who has strong & informed opinions on Israels' obnoxious behaviour & continous disregard for the rights of the Palestinians
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imo, until this conflict is resolved , dont expect there will be any chance of peace in middle east..
and will effect all western world in every possible way, even your wallet when you fill your tank at the nearest station..
food and water are the basic needs for any human
that the israel dont permit for palestinians ..
that much simple !
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
We certainly do & I'm one of them who has strong & informed opinions on Israels' obnoxious behaviour & continous disregard for the rights of the Palestinians
Indeed yet again PF, as I previously mentioned in this thread I am of a Jewish family background, although admittedly not a practising one now, and I feel the same way.
Alexi Sayer, a Jew, also protested today in Whithall and on ITV stated clearly the action taken by Israel has nothing to do with being Jewish in the outside world, and I rteckon thousands/millions of Jews feel as he does and you PF :y :y
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
We certainly do & I'm one of them who has strong & informed opinions on Israels' obnoxious behaviour & continous disregard for the rights of the Palestinians
Indeed yet again PF, as I previously mentioned in this thread I am of a Jewish family background, although admittedly not a practising one now, and I feel the same way.
Alexi Sayer, a Jew, also protested today in Whithall and on ITV stated clearly the action taken by Israel has nothing to do with being Jewish in the outside world, and I rteckon thousands/millions of Jews feel as he does and you PF :y :y
I sincerely hope that they do
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imo, until this conflict is resolved , dont expect there will be any chance of peace in middle east..
and will effect all western world in every possible way, even your wallet when you fill your tank at the nearest station..
food and water are the basic needs for any human
that the israel dont permit for palestinians ..
that much simple !
So spot on Cem again! :y :y :y
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I hav just read through this thread and am lost for words. I cant remember the last time I read such a load of misinfomed twaddle. Try living in a country which suffers constantly, year after year from terrorism and see if you still hold such views. Its easy to be an armchair pacifist. ::)
Isreal survives by takng no crap from anyone, I dont blame them. ;)
We did for a long time with the troubles in the North of Ireland and more recently with the nutters and there strap on bombs and there petrol filled airport ramming cars.
We know what Terrorisim is.
I have to admit i have until recently been pro Israel but the constant "sledgehammer to crack nuts " approach has become difficult to justify.
Doug
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
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Doug - I lived in Northern Ireland (Belfast)from when I was born (1959) until 1979. Which was what I meant about living with terrorism day in day out. ;)
The more recent events from Muslim extremists in mainland Britain, while terrible and tragic, dont imo come close to living with terrorism every day for decades ike the Israelis or the people of N.I.
I dont think that people who have never lived wih that can fully understand what it is like, and therefore probably arent fully qualified to pass judgement on the situation.
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
Have you not watched and listened to the reports, the comments from many sources, from all different backgrounds and countries, let alone read the quotes in this thread and comments from others like me who have watched the Palestinian question develop over years Nick? :-/ :-/ :-/
So you can post threads on limited, argued 'facts' on Eco issues, but no one can express their opinions based on facts on a very, very serious issue? ::) ::)
Oh well that is your opinion, but I am so glad you are not at the head of a democracy! ;) ;) ;) :y :y
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
......seems quite well mannered and restrained to me.....so far at least.... ::) ::) ;). Was it not Israel involved in the passport fiasco recently?.::) ;)
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
......seems quite well mannered and restrained to me.....so far at least.... ::) ::) ;). Was it not Israel involved in the passport fiasco recently?.::) ;)
Yes Optimist, another prooved illegal act by the poor 'victim' Israel!! ::) ::) ::)
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
......seems quite well mannered and restrained to me.....so far at least.... ::) ::) ;). Was it not Israel involved in the passport fiasco recently?.::) ;)
Yes Optimist, another prooved illegal act by the poor 'victim' Israel!! ::) ::) ::)
......international law ......does not apply to Israel.. Lizzie ::) ::)
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
Have you not watched and listened to the reports, the comments from many sources, from all different backgrounds and countries, let alone read the quotes in this thread and comments from others like me who have watched the Palestinian question develop over years Nick? :-/ :-/ :-/
So you can post threads on limited, argued 'facts' on Eco issues, but no one can express their opinions based on facts on a very, very serious issue? ::) ::)
Oh well that is your opinion, but I am so glad you are not at the head of a democracy! ;) ;) ;) :y :y
I am not talking about the Palestinian question, per se, merely the knee-jerk comments surrounding this morning's incident.
Perhaps this report provides some welcome balance:
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/05/31/bloody-clash-off-gaza-coast-leaves-10-dead/
Had the initial thread concerned the more general question of the Middle East (which it didn't) I would have happily contributed with my view that the only way forward lies in a two-state solution. I would further add that the greater obstacle to that lies with Hamas.
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
Have you not watched and listened to the reports, the comments from many sources, from all different backgrounds and countries, let alone read the quotes in this thread and comments from others like me who have watched the Palestinian question develop over years Nick? :-/ :-/ :-/
So you can post threads on limited, argued 'facts' on Eco issues, but no one can express their opinions based on facts on a very, very serious issue? ::) ::)
Oh well that is your opinion, but I am so glad you are not at the head of a democracy! ;) ;) ;) :y :y
I am not talking about the Palestinian question, per se, merely the knee-jerk comments surrounding this morning's incident.
Perhaps this report provides some welcome balance:
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/05/31/bloody-clash-off-gaza-coast-leaves-10-dead/
Had the initial thread concerned the more general question of the Middle East (which it didn't) I would have happily contributed with my view that the only way forward lies in a two-state solution. I would further add that the greater obstacle to that lies with Hamas.
there was a live evidence by our tv channels..
and the truth is very different than the article..
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
Have you not watched and listened to the reports, the comments from many sources, from all different backgrounds and countries, let alone read the quotes in this thread and comments from others like me who have watched the Palestinian question develop over years Nick? :-/ :-/ :-/
So you can post threads on limited, argued 'facts' on Eco issues, but no one can express their opinions based on facts on a very, very serious issue? ::) ::)
Oh well that is your opinion, but I am so glad you are not at the head of a democracy! ;) ;) ;) :y :y
I am not talking about the Palestinian question, per se, merely the knee-jerk comments surrounding this morning's incident.
Perhaps this report provides some welcome balance:
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/05/31/bloody-clash-off-gaza-coast-leaves-10-dead/
Had the initial thread concerned the more general question of the Middle East (which it didn't) I would have happily contributed with my view that the only way forward lies in a two-state solution. I would further add that the greater obstacle to that lies with Hamas.
Sorry Nick but that link gives no more facts than the initial ones reported by the international news channels and political observers:
The Israeli's stormed the six Turkish flagged and internationally crewed vessels with fully armed commandos and killed between 10 - 19, in International waters, in support of their illegal embargo of Gaza in defiance of UN wishes, and as a continual programme of aggression against the people of Palestine.
Those facts have been apparent all day Nick, and have been widely internationally condemed. No one, least of all me 'jumped in' with this post without knowing the widespread reported 'facts', and the history of this appalling continuing act against the human rights of the Palestinians. Israel as a 'victim' just does not wash. ;) ;)
Ok Nick you do not agree with my thread, so that is fine. You do not need to make excusses for not entering into the debate earlier. As I previously stated at the very beginning of my thread, this IS a very complex issue, as your Eco threads often are, but I suggest of a far more serious nature ;) ;)
:y :y :y
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there was a live evidence by our tv channels..
and the truth is very different than the article..
I have yet to come across ANY TV channel that has a monopoly on the truth, Cem. ;)
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"However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons"
yes.. they shoot with paintball rifles and killed people ;D
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
I agree that this thread should not have been started, or if it had to be started, some people should have refrained from wading in so deeply until more facts become known. >:(
Have you not watched and listened to the reports, the comments from many sources, from all different backgrounds and countries, let alone read the quotes in this thread and comments from others like me who have watched the Palestinian question develop over years Nick? :-/ :-/ :-/
So you can post threads on limited, argued 'facts' on Eco issues, but no one can express their opinions based on facts on a very, very serious issue? ::) ::)
Oh well that is your opinion, but I am so glad you are not at the head of a democracy! ;) ;) ;) :y :y
I am not talking about the Palestinian question, per se, merely the knee-jerk comments surrounding this morning's incident.
Perhaps this report provides some welcome balance:
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/05/31/bloody-clash-off-gaza-coast-leaves-10-dead/
Had the initial thread concerned the more general question of the Middle East (which it didn't) I would have happily contributed with my view that the only way forward lies in a two-state solution. I would further add that the greater obstacle to that lies with Hamas.
Sorry Nick but that link gives no more facts than the initial ones reported by the international news channels and political observers:
The Israeli's stormed the six Turkish flagged and internationally crewed vessels with fully armed commandos and killed between 10 - 19, in International waters, in support of their illegal embargo of Gaza in defiance of UN wishes, and as a continual programme of aggression against the people of Palestine.
Those facts have been apparent all day Nick, and have been widely internationally condemed. No one, least of all me 'jumped in' with this post without knowing the widespread reported 'facts', and the history of this appalling continuing act against the human rights of the Palestinians. Israel as a 'victim' just does not wash. ;) ;)
Ok Nick you do not agree with my thread, so that is fine. You do not need to make excusses for not entering into the debate earlier. As I previously stated at the very beginning of my thread, this IS a very complex issue, as your Eco threads often are, but I suggest of a far more serious nature ;) ;)
:y :y :y
Yep....that's about the bones of it...Lizzie.
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Those "poor Palestinan people" elected a terrorist govt. (Hamas) - they are now sowing what they have reaped imo.
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"However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons"
yes.. they shoot with paintball rifles and killed people ;D
Ah Cem, but some people will believe the paintball gun suggestion as Israel is the poor victim, and then state the activists shot themselves!! ::) ::) ::) I can see it coming!! ;) ;)
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Those "poor Palestinan people" elected a terrorist govt. (Hamas) - they are now sowing what they have reaped imo.
before Hamas who were there and what happened..
years of violence and hunger of course leads to that..
did you watch the boy that israel soldiers break the arm by stone..
always israel is #1 to shed blood..
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Those "poor Palestinan people" elected a terrorist govt. (Hamas) - they are now sowing what they have reaped imo.
Because they were desperate to find a way of defending themselves against an aggressive neighbour. They were not prepared to stand there and just take it; just like the French resistance, or Norwegians against the German's.
Hamas is what the Palestinian people wanted in control, rightly or wrongly, but it is now time for the outside world to call a halt to ALL aggressive actions surrounding Gaza :D ;)
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They have attacked and terrorised Israel for years, and the Israelis wont lie down and give in. They are surrounded by enemies, but will do whatever it takes to stop themselves being overrun by these Arab terrorists. RESPECT. :y
They wont take any notice of the outside world and nor should they. It was spineless politiicans in Westminster worrying about the outside world that allowed the murder and mayhem to continue in Northern Ireland for 30 years, when they should have allowed British security forces to put a stop to it much earlier and prevent so much slaughter of many innocent peple.
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Those "poor Palestinan people" elected a terrorist govt. (Hamas) - they are now sowing what they have reaped imo.
I would largely agree, Albs, although it is probably more a case of Hamas electing themselves through various means. ;)
There is little point, though, in contributing to this one-sided thread as the Gang of Three have already made up their minds and are closed to all other possibilities, IMHO. :( :(
I'm out.
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They have attacked and terroised Israel for years, and the Israelis wont lie down and give in. They are surrounded by enemies, but will do whatever it takes to stop themselves being overrun by these Arab terrorists. RESPECT. :y
here is the question :
why before israel, those arabs live many years under ottoman empire without any terrorism ?
who pushed them.. do they like to dress bombs and explode as a daily habit ?
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That isnt really the quesion at all Cem.Isreal is an established country which is receognised in interntional law etc. but their neighbours wont accept this and wish to wipe then off the map. That is what they are defending themselves against.
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That isnt really the quesion at all Cem.Isreal is an established country which is receognised in interntional law etc. but their neighbours wont accept this and wish to wipe then off the map. That is what they are defending themselves against.
:)
they are defending.. :-?
who got the nukes, warplanes,tanks,artillery, technology, big brother behind..none of those are existent in Arab countries..
who surrounded palestine with Berlin walls so no one can get out..
problem is: I'm powerful so I'll do what I want..
come on Albs..
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They have attacked and terrorised Israel for years, and the Israelis wont lie down and give in. They are surrounded by enemies, but will do whatever it takes to stop themselves being overrun by these Arab terrorists. RESPECT. :y
They wont take any notice of the outside world and nor should they. It was spineless politiicans in Westminster worrying about the outside world that allowed the murder and mayhem to continue in Northern Ireland for 30 years, when they should have allowed British security forces to put a stop to it much earlier and prevent so much slaughter of many innocent peple.
......Israel is a superpower.....Palestine is a stoneage country......a few kids with stones and a handful of antiquated pre WW2 rockets which can barely leave the ground. Hardly equal odds.... :-/ :-/
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I'm not going to get involved in this discussion per se, as it is futile. What I will say, though, is that the Israeli government is not the Israeli people, just as the British government does not represent the views of a significant portion of the population. This goes for Turkey, Palestine and almost any other country you care to mention.
There are anti-goverment protests in Israel at the moment and, if change is to come about, it will come from where it always comes from....within.
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If the palestinians and their backers stop attacking Israel, Im sure Israel will leave them alone.
But they should have learned by now that if they give Israel grief they will get it back tenfold. ;)
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If the palestinians and their backers stop attacking Isreal, Im sure Isreal will leave them alone.
But they should have learned by now that if they give Isreal grief they will get it back tenfold. ;)
dont be sure, you will loose ;D
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Ok i've sat here on & off for the last 12hrs & seen ''discussions??!!'' between the Lizzie & Cem show ::)
We are all entitled to our opinion & views be them right or wrong - that is our entitlement :y
As i have already pointed out I AM JEWISH & proud of it!!
What has happened to-day with relation to the deaths IS unacceptable but it could have been avoided had the warnings by Israel for the past 'couple of days' been heeded ..... but alas it wasn't & i'm sure no-one could envisage the outcome :(
Some-one mentioned that Israel should have waited for the intervention of the UN but by the time the UN had sat down & discussed what actions should be taken w.w.3 could have broken out! When anyone mentions the UN i keep on thinking of what they achieved in the Iraq war - they're as much use as a chocolate fire-guard!!
For those of you that have sympathy with the Palestinians with regard to the Gaza Strip and why Israel is standing its ground may i please offer u the following ..........
Extract from 'Wikipedia' -
Mutual recognition -
The Oslo peace process was based upon Israel ceding authority to the Palestinians to run their own political and economic affairs. In return, it was agreed that Palestinians would promote peaceful co-existence, renounce violence and promote recognition of Israel among their own people.[106] Despite Yasser Arafat's official renunciation of terrorism and recognition of Israel, some Palestinian groups continue to practice and advocate violence against civilians and do not recognize Israel as a legitimate political entity.[107]
Palestinians state that their ability to spread acceptance of Israel was greatly hampered by Israeli restrictions on Palestinian political freedoms, economic freedoms, civil liberties, and quality of life. Many feel that their own opposition to Israel was justified by Israel's apparent stifling of any genuine Palestinian political and economic development.[108]
It is widely felt among Israelis that Palestinians did not in fact promote acceptance of Israel's right to exist.[109][110] One of Israel's major reservations in regards to granting Palestinian sovereignty is its concern that there is not genuine public support by Palestinians for co-existence and elimination of terrorism and incitement.[109][110][111] Some Palestinian groups, notably Fatah, the political party founded by PLO leaders, claim they are willing to foster co-existence if Palestinians are steadily given more political rights and autonomy. In 2006, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council, where it remains the majority party. While Hamas has openly stated in the past that it completely opposed Israel's right to exist, and its charter states this,[107][112] there is evidence that its position may have softened by 2006.[113][114] However, Israel contended in 2007 that Hamas has refused to recognize Israel in any valid way, and that it supported recent rocket attacks on Israel.[115][116] In June 2009, Hamas leaders met with former US President Jimmy Carter, and said that Hamas does not in any way recognize Israel.[117]
Israel cites past concessions—such as Israel’s disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, which did not lead to a reduction of attacks and rocket fire against Israel—as an example of the Palestinian people not accepting Israel as a state. Palestinian groups and Israeli Human Rights organizations (namely B'Tselem) have pointed out that while the military occupation in Gaza was ended, the Israeli government still retained control of Gaza's airspace, territorial water, and borders, legally making it still under Israeli control. They also say that mainly thanks to these restrictions, the Palestinian quality of life in the Gaza Strip has not improved since the Israeli withdrawal. Furthermore, given that the Israeli army has run incursions into the Gaza Strip on various occasions, closed off its borders, and placed an embargo on the region, the Gazan economy has since gone into free fall. This has led and continues to result in warnings of the Palestinian population becoming more radicalized unless conditions improve.
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Please feel free to comment on this
By the way, its nice to see other fellow wej on this forum :y
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Ok i've sat here on & off for the last 12hrs & seen ''discussions??!!'' between the Lizzie & Cem show ::)
We are all entitled to our opinion & views be them right or wrong - that is our entitlement :y
As i have already pointed out I AM JEWISH & proud of it!!
What has happened to-day with relation to the deaths IS unacceptable but it could have been avoided had the warnings by Israel for the past 'couple of days' been heeded ..... but alas it wasn't & i'm sure no-one could envisage the outcome :(
Some-one mentioned that Israel should have waited for the intervention of the UN but by the time the UN had sat down & discussed what actions should be taken w.w.3 could have broken out! When anyone mentions the UN i keep on thinking of what they achieved in the Iraq war - they're as much use as a chocolate fire-guard!!
For those of you that have sympathy with the Palestinians with regard to the Gaza Strip and why Israel is standing its ground may i please offer u the following ..........
Extract from 'Wikipedia' -
Mutual recognition -
The Oslo peace process was based upon Israel ceding authority to the Palestinians to run their own political and economic affairs. In return, it was agreed that Palestinians would promote peaceful co-existence, renounce violence and promote recognition of Israel among their own people.[106] Despite Yasser Arafat's official renunciation of terrorism and recognition of Israel, some Palestinian groups continue to practice and advocate violence against civilians and do not recognize Israel as a legitimate political entity.[107]
Palestinians state that their ability to spread acceptance of Israel was greatly hampered by Israeli restrictions on Palestinian political freedoms, economic freedoms, civil liberties, and quality of life. Many feel that their own opposition to Israel was justified by Israel's apparent stifling of any genuine Palestinian political and economic development.[108]
It is widely felt among Israelis that Palestinians did not in fact promote acceptance of Israel's right to exist.[109][110] One of Israel's major reservations in regards to granting Palestinian sovereignty is its concern that there is not genuine public support by Palestinians for co-existence and elimination of terrorism and incitement.[109][110][111] Some Palestinian groups, notably Fatah, the political party founded by PLO leaders, claim they are willing to foster co-existence if Palestinians are steadily given more political rights and autonomy. In 2006, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council, where it remains the majority party. While Hamas has openly stated in the past that it completely opposed Israel's right to exist, and its charter states this,[107][112] there is evidence that its position may have softened by 2006.[113][114] However, Israel contended in 2007 that Hamas has refused to recognize Israel in any valid way, and that it supported recent rocket attacks on Israel.[115][116] In June 2009, Hamas leaders met with former US President Jimmy Carter, and said that Hamas does not in any way recognize Israel.[117]
Israel cites past concessions—such as Israel’s disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, which did not lead to a reduction of attacks and rocket fire against Israel—as an example of the Palestinian people not accepting Israel as a state. Palestinian groups and Israeli Human Rights organizations (namely B'Tselem) have pointed out that while the military occupation in Gaza was ended, the Israeli government still retained control of Gaza's airspace, territorial water, and borders, legally making it still under Israeli control. They also say that mainly thanks to these restrictions, the Palestinian quality of life in the Gaza Strip has not improved since the Israeli withdrawal. Furthermore, given that the Israeli army has run incursions into the Gaza Strip on various occasions, closed off its borders, and placed an embargo on the region, the Gazan economy has since gone into free fall. This has led and continues to result in warnings of the Palestinian population becoming more radicalized unless conditions improve.
__________________________________________________
Please feel free to comment on this
By the way, its nice to see other fellow wej on this forum :y
Very true, and I hope I haven't suggested otherwise! 8-) 8-)
The rest is very fair comment, and maybe this 'action' by Israel will wake the USA up to end the illegal embargo of Gaza and give the Palestinians their rights.. That way they will then have no excuse to be aggressive towards Israel, and likewise Israel can leave the situation alone with no more strong arm military tactics ;) ;)
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Just been watching footage of this on the news.The Israelis were out numbered, one of them was thrown overboard from the top deck. You could see the people on the boat had soldiers on the ground beating hell out of them with bars. If I was in their position and had a gun I would have opened fire the same as they did.
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I don't think this thread should have been started. None of us can possibly know the truth behind any of this, it is mired in propoganda and secrecy. There are people on here who spot a news story and wade straight in, without thinking of the consequences. We have Jewish people on the forum, Arabs and, obviously, Cem, who's country is directly involved. Take a deep breathe or this will get nasty when you all start on your wine :-* later.
We certainly do & I'm one of them who has strong & informed opinions on Israels' obnoxious behaviour & continous disregard for the rights of the Palestinians
Indeed yet again PF, as I previously mentioned in this thread I am of a Jewish family background, although admittedly not a practising one now, and I feel the same way.
Alexi Sayer, a Jew, also protested today in Whithall and on ITV stated clearly the action taken by Israel has nothing to do with being Jewish in the outside world, and I rteckon thousands/millions of Jews feel as he does and you PF :y :y
So Lizzie babe ;) tell me more as i'm curious about u!! :P (not bi-curious i hasten to add!!) :-* :-* :-*
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Just been watching footage of this on the news.The Israelis were out numbered, one of them was thrown overboard from the top deck. You could see the people on the boat had soldiers on the ground beating hell out of them with bars. If I was in their position and had a gun I would have opened fire the same as they did.
Have been looking at various international papers & saw this in 'Reuters' ...........
"We were prepared to face human rights activists and we found people who came for war," the marine told reporters.
Yes i agree that the marines were too trigger happy but as Albs has just said - being outnumbered & having the crap beaten out of u then as a soldier instinct kicks in & u do what you are trained to do ....... what a pity it wasn't plastic bullets or tear gas or anything that wouldn't have ended up with the death of these pro-Palestinians :( :( :(
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Thre have been over 8000 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza over the years. Little wonder that the Israelis want to see what is on board boats headed for Gaza. ;)
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I know I said I was "out"of this thread, but needs must and I feel the need to post this, from Conservative Home blogs:
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2010/05/william-hague-needs-to-issue-a-new-statement-on-the-flotilla-incident.html
Summary:
1. The activists on the boat were preparing for violence and described martyrdom as a "happy ending"
2. The soldiers were seriously assaulted
3. This was not "piracy" or anything of the sort
4. The Israelis main mistake may have been to use insufficient force initially
I post this as a subject for discussion. It could be, in my mind, that this whole thing was deliberately planned for a specific aim: not humanitarian relief for the Palestinians, but a successful attempt to whip up anti-Israeli feeling. The cynic in me would say that the planners would have figured that a few deaths were worth the PR (indeed, they have enhanced the PR).
Interesting indeed.
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Interesting reply Nickbat :y
This 'peace loving' flotilla of pro-Palestinians had been warned last week NOT to sail into Gaza as it was ILLEGAL but decided in their wisdom to make a stance -
This was taken from The New York Times May 27th 2010.....
Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, the Israeli military’s chief liaison with the Palestinian-controlled territories, said Israel’s policy was very clear. Briefing a group of foreign reporters in Tel Aviv this week, he said that Israel had offered the activists the chance to unload their cargo at Ashdod. Israel, he said, would be willing to transfer it, after inspection, to Gaza. But he added, “We will not allow ships to come to Gaza while Hamas is in control there.”
In a news statement issued by Israel’s Foreign Ministry this week, Sarah Weiss Maudi, the ministry’s expert on maritime and humanitarian law, said the maritime blockade was in force “because Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime” in Gaza. Hamas, she continued, “has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel proper with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza by various routes, including the sea.”
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Interesting reply Nickbat :y
This 'peace loving' flotilla of pro-Palestinians had been warned last week NOT to sail into Gaza as it was ILLEGAL but decided in their wisdom to make a stance -
This was taken from The New York Times May 27th 2010.....
Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, the Israeli military’s chief liaison with the Palestinian-controlled territories, said Israel’s policy was very clear. Briefing a group of foreign reporters in Tel Aviv this week, he said that Israel had offered the activists the chance to unload their cargo at Ashdod. Israel, he said, would be willing to transfer it, after inspection, to Gaza. But he added, “We will not allow ships to come to Gaza while Hamas is in control there.”
In a news statement issued by Israel’s Foreign Ministry this week, Sarah Weiss Maudi, the ministry’s expert on maritime and humanitarian law, said the maritime blockade was in force “because Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime” in Gaza. Hamas, she continued, “has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel proper with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza by various routes, including the sea.”
Precisely, Eliteomegaman. :y
Unfortunately, Israel is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand it has a legitimate right to defend itself against known smuggling of weapons that are used against it; on the other, it has to battle with a verbose anti-Israeli lobby that will seize on anything to slag it off as a bully. Of course the militants know this dilemma and will play it for all its worth. I'm tempted to add: hence today's events.
Of course, it is worth remembering that, in the defence against militant islamism, Israel is in the frontline. Worth bearing in mind, IMHO.
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Interesting reply Nickbat :y
This 'peace loving' flotilla of pro-Palestinians had been warned last week NOT to sail into Gaza as it was ILLEGAL but decided in their wisdom to make a stance -
This was taken from The New York Times May 27th 2010.....
Maj. Gen. Eitan Dangot, the Israeli military’s chief liaison with the Palestinian-controlled territories, said Israel’s policy was very clear. Briefing a group of foreign reporters in Tel Aviv this week, he said that Israel had offered the activists the chance to unload their cargo at Ashdod. Israel, he said, would be willing to transfer it, after inspection, to Gaza. But he added, “We will not allow ships to come to Gaza while Hamas is in control there.”
In a news statement issued by Israel’s Foreign Ministry this week, Sarah Weiss Maudi, the ministry’s expert on maritime and humanitarian law, said the maritime blockade was in force “because Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime” in Gaza. Hamas, she continued, “has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel proper with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza by various routes, including the sea.”
Precisely, Eliteomegaman. :y
Unfortunately, Israel is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand it has a legitimate right to defend itself against known smuggling of weapons that are used against it; on the other, it has to battle with a verbose anti-Israeli lobby that will seize on anything to slag it off as a bully. Of course the militants know this dilemma and will play it for all its worth. I'm tempted to add: hence today's events.
Of course, it is worth remembering that, in the defence against militant islamism, Israel is in the frontline. Worth bearing in mind, IMHO.
Very true indeed & cudn't have put it better myself :y
ps. As a slightly thick Northerner i keep seeing 'IMHO' on this site & would ask embarrasingly what does it stand for? :-[ :-[
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In My Honest Opinion :y
sometimes just IMO - In My Opinion
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Thank you for that :y :y :y
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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100531/video/vhd-israeli-commandos-attacked-on-aid-sh-686f718.html
:-X :-X :-X
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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100531/video/vhd-israeli-commandos-attacked-on-aid-sh-686f718.html
:-X :-X :-X
I'd like to ask the originators of this topic what THEY would do is this situation as trained marines, who are second only to the SAS? :-?
Maybe - sticks & stones could break our bones but you will never hurt us?? :o
Cud this 'flotilla' have had only one thing in mind - get as much publicity as possible knowing what the consequences will be?? :-? :-? :-?
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In My Honest Opinion :y
sometimes just IMO - In My Opinion
Or, even, In My Humble Opinion, 'cos you know how 'umble I am don't you BJ? ;) ;D ;D
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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100531/video/vhd-israeli-commandos-attacked-on-aid-sh-686f718.html
:-X :-X :-X
I'd like to ask the originators of this topic what THEY would do is this situation as trained marines, who are second only to the SAS? :-?
Maybe - sticks & stones could break our bones but you will never hurt us?? :o
Cud this 'flotilla' have had only one thing in mind - get as much publicity as possible knowing what the consequences will be?? :-? :-? :-?
Yes, indeed. To quote the originator of this post:
"...we see commandos storming one particular ship, that consisted of unarmed oldish men and woman "activists". Israeli claimed these activists attacked their troops with sticks, axes and "firearms"!! Oh yeah!! ::) ::) "
Oh dear. What's that line about rushing in and fearing to tread? ;) ;D ;D
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In My Honest Opinion :y
sometimes just IMO - In My Opinion
Or, even, In My Humble Opinion, 'cos you know how 'umble I am don't you BJ? ;) ;D ;D
Hmmmmm the word 'humble' is used by my wife towards me on numerous occasions so i looked it up in the dictionary ....
humble (adjective)
1. A humble person thinks he has VERY LITTLE VALUE!
2. Something that is humble is SMALL or NOT very IMPORTANT!
3. To humble someone means to make them feel HUMILIATED!
TIME ME THINKS TO TRADE HER IN FOR A NEWER & YOUNGER MODEL!!!! :D ;D :D ;D
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In My Honest Opinion :y
sometimes just IMO - In My Opinion
Or, even, In My Humble Opinion, 'cos you know how 'umble I am don't you BJ? ;) ;D ;D
Hmmmmm the word 'humble' is used by my wife towards me on numerous occasions so i looked it up in the dictionary ....
humble (adjective)
1. A humble person thinks he has VERY LITTLE VALUE!
2. Something that is humble is SMALL or NOT very IMPORTANT!
3. To humble someone means to make them feel HUMILIATED!
TIME ME THINKS TO TRADE HER IN FOR A NEWER & YOUNGER MODEL!!!! :D ;D :D ;D
Go for it! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Only jesting, Mrs eliteomegaman! ;)
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In My Honest Opinion :y
sometimes just IMO - In My Opinion
Or, even, In My Humble Opinion, 'cos you know how 'umble I am don't you BJ? ;) ;D ;D
who are you and what have you done with Nickbat? ;D ;D
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In My Honest Opinion :y
sometimes just IMO - In My Opinion
Or, even, In My Humble Opinion, 'cos you know how 'umble I am don't you BJ? ;) ;D ;D
Hmmmmm the word 'humble' is used by my wife towards me on numerous occasions so i looked it up in the dictionary ....
humble (adjective)
1. A humble person thinks he has VERY LITTLE VALUE!
2. Something that is humble is SMALL or NOT very IMPORTANT!
3. To humble someone means to make them feel HUMILIATED!
TIME ME THINKS TO TRADE HER IN FOR A NEWER & YOUNGER MODEL!!!! :D ;D :D ;D
Go for it! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Only jesting, Mrs eliteomegaman! ;)
Only joking about the wife, i aint got one ..... threw in the towel 11yrs ago & never looked back ;D ;D
Besides i've got me beedy little eyes on that hot chick 'LizzieZoom' :-* :-* :-* :D :D :D
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I'm meant to be DJing in Israel in a month or so...might have to keep my eye on this situ! :-/
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I'm meant to be DJing in Israel in a month or so...might have to keep my eye on this situ! :-/
Hey Bud how u doing?? :y
Wow a man of many talents, i'm impressed ;)
There's absolutely no probs with u DeeJaying just don't tell 'em about the joke involving the bacon sandwich at the Jewish wedding .............. !! ;D ;D ;D
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All good thankya matey!
I have a buddy out in Tel Aviv that has a Pork restaurant, I s**t you not! And he does a good trade too ;D
Yeah I am a busy man mate, I'm a DJ, record label owner, radio station owner, recording artist/producer, graphic/web designer, occasional OOF frequenter too - I don't get much sleep I tell thee!
:D
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F*ck me - u are a busy B!!
Tell me summat? How can u have the balls to come onto this topic about Israel with a pic of Adolph H. playing with himself - ur barking mad!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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I'm sorry to come to this thread so late in the day, but I've been otherwise engaged, and I've only just seen the pictures.
First off, I'm Jewish but I'm not a supporter of the state of Israel - never have been.
The pictures I've just watched on the BBC News channel show quite clearly that the Israeli soldiers were outnumbered and attacked by a group of well-prepared thugs as they were lowered to the ship's deck from helicopters. They did not storm in firing in all directions. The BBC pictures don't show when and how the gunfire began.
Once again, the word "disproportionate" is being hurled around. Please tell me what is a "proportionate" reponse to being attacked and beaten with an iron bar?
And please tell me what motivates anyone to attack an armed soldier, especially an Israeli armed soldier, with an iron bar?
As for the blockade, I feell that the Israelis are perfectly justified in attempting to prevent uninspected cargos from reaching the ports of Gaza. Gaza is a community run by a group who want the state of Israel wiped off the map. As far as I know, there doesn't seem to be any humanitarian crisis whereby people are dying of starvation in Gaza, and the population there are not under attack from Israel.
It is regrettable that 9 or more of the contingent on the ship have been killed, but I can't see how Israel can be made out to be the aggressors given what we have been shown so far.
It's always the same - these people continually take pot-shots at a more powerful state, and then cry foul when there is retaliation. Do you carefully remove the mosquito biting your arm to avoid hurting it? And does the world condemn you when you do the sensible thing and squish the mosquito? There always seems to be a long, long queue of people lining up to have a go at Israel every time they step out of line.
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It is great to see how this subject has continued to be debated, even though some feel the thread should never have been started!!
In the previous postings I and others have made the position clear regarding:
a) Israeli commandos illegally storming Turkish flagged vessels in International waters
b) Fully suited, booted and armed professional commandos launching a raid on ships crewed by an international mix of politicians, a TurkishTV crew, journalists, and assorted male and female civilians from all walks of life who feel strongly about ensuring aid reaches beleagured Gaza (if you missed it read the UN report on the current situation there in my link) and at least basic human rights are upheld.
c) The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel in contrevention of the UN
d) The vast imbalance of armed power between Israel and the Palestinians (read the casualty and other facts listed in my link)
e) International opinion that has considered the facts, as we have, surrounding Israel and Gaza over decades and roundly condemed Israel.
f) Israel consider that they disenenged from occupying Gaza in 2005, but the UN consider they still do occupy this Palensitian terrority with the enforcement of a land, sea and air blockade. Israel have publicly stated they will also build homes for Israeli's in Gaza.
g) Israel is the world's 11th most powerful military force, and by far the regions greatest miltary power, with possibly a nuclear capability, although Israel refuses to disclose whether or not that capabilty exists.
All the time Israel tries to control Gaza and the Palestinians with an aggressive stance, and yes the Palestinians fighting against this, the situation will remain unresolved. Right at the start of this thread I mentioned how Israel is stupid (or arrogant) enough to commit blunders on the international stage that give it instant bad PR. Well, regardless of the pro's and cons that all of us could argue about until pigs start flying, this they do repeatedly. The last episode was about the illegal use of British passports.
:D :D :D :y :y
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It is great to see how this subject has continued to be debated, even though some feel the thread should never have been started!!
In the previous postings I and others have made the position clear regarding:
a) Israeli commandos illegally storming Turkish flagged vessels in International waters
b) Fully suited, booted and armed professional commandos launching a raid on ships crewed by an international mix of politicians, a TurkishTV crew, journalists, and assorted male and female civilians from all walks of life who feel strongly about ensuring aid reaches beleagured Gaza (if you missed it read the UN report on the current situation there in my link) and at least basic human rights are upheld.
c) The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel in contrevention of the UN
d) The vast imbalance of armed power between Israel and the Palestinians (read the casualty and other facts listed in my link)
e) International opinion that has considered the facts, as we have, surrounding Israel and Gaza over decades and roundly condemed Israel.
f) Israel consider that they disenenged from occupying Gaza in 2005, but the UN consider they still do occupy this Palensitian terrority with the enforcement of a land, sea and air blockade. Israel have publicly stated they will also build homes for Israeli's in Gaza.
g) Israel is the world's 11th most powerful military force, and by far the regions greatest miltary power, with possibly a nuclear capability, although Israel refuses to disclose whether or not that capabilty exists.
All the time Israel tries to control Gaza and the Palestinians with an aggressive stance, and yes the Palestinians fighting against this, the situation will remain unresolved. Right at the start of this thread I mentioned how Israel is stupid (or arrogant) enough to commit blunders on the international stage that give it instant bad PR. Well, regardless of the pro's and cons that all of us could argue about until pigs start flying, this they do repeatedly. The last episode was about the illegal use of British passports.
:D :D :D :y :y
Well said Lizzie :y :y
a) even thats a reason to declare war for any country..if that was a UK ship what would you do ?
b) there were children and women..you may ask why but they come with their families and think israel is a civilised country :D
and a note, would you stay calm waiting the armed commandos to do what they want..what the hell they were doing on our ships .. pirates >:(
and yeah I feel now sad for the commandos not for the civils dead.. :D
I advise them next time try our commandos..not civils..
and sadly I see many people neglect what has happened in the past.. if you choose to close your eyes then do it..
and I must add, there will be many consequences that sum of them I know and some of them cant be estimated..but in either case israel wont be happy..
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
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Nice to see things being evened out this morning. China refused to censure N. Korea and the US is refusing to censure Israel.
World order has been restored. ::)
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This extract from The Times this morning says it all ::)........
Before the Gaza Freedom Flotilla steamed out of Cyprus laden with thousands of tons of aid for the blockaded Gaza Strip, some of the passengers on a Turkish-flagged cruise ship spoke to news crews filming their departure.
“We are now waiting for one of two good things — either to reach Gaza or achieve martyrdom,” :o :o :o said one woman in a headscarf. After a night of bloodshed on the high seas on Monday, at least nine of her fellow passengers, most of them believed to be Turks, had achieved the latter.
How interesting :-? ::)
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
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This extract from The Times this morning says it all ::)........
Before the Gaza Freedom Flotilla steamed out of Cyprus laden with thousands of tons of aid for the blockaded Gaza Strip, some of the passengers on a Turkish-flagged cruise ship spoke to news crews filming their departure.
“We are now waiting for one of two good things — either to reach Gaza or achieve martyrdom,” :o :o :o said one woman in a headscarf. After a night of bloodshed on the high seas on Monday, at least nine of her fellow passengers, most of them believed to be Turks, had achieved the latter.
How interesting :-? ::)
Yes, because they knew how predictable Israel is in carrying out illegal acts of war, and how as much as they wished the humanitarian cargo would reach Gaza for the beleagured Palensitines, they understood the Israeli's would take the type of action they did.
Rather like those who manned the shipping conveys to the people of the UK fighting against tyranny in WW2 expected to be attacked by German forces although they sincerely hoped they were not!! ::) ::) ::)
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Nice to see things being evened out this morning. China refused to censure N. Korea and the US is refusing to censure Israel.
World order has been restored. ::)
I see you in a new light after your contributions to this thread Steve!
Hot, but not too hot eh? :D :D
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Do me a bloody favour & read my posts ::)
They KNEW the marines were coming as they had prior warnings for OVER A WEEK AGO :o
Also ships nowadays have radar! The IDF boarded the ships to take them to the port NOT to kill them ::)
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Nice to see things being evened out this morning. China refused to censure N. Korea and the US is refusing to censure Israel.
World order has been restored. ::)
I see you in a new light after your contributions to this thread Steve!
Hot, but not too hot eh? :D :D
Yep and Steve has hit it on the head with that wonderfully cynical observation, which means the Gaza and Israeli situation is destined to continue to roll on..and on......and on....................!! ::) ::) ::)
Whichever side you 'bat for', this is not good for anyone! :( :(
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
It is hoped that enough of the international community will put pressure on that to stop this from happening, but the signs are not good with the USA already seemingly taking a pro-Israel stance ::) ::) ::)
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
It is hoped that enough of the international community will put pressure on that to stop this from happening, but the signs are not good with the USA already seemingly taking a pro-Israel stance ::) ::) ::)
Well, at least it's a balance to your anti-Israel stance. ::)
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I think the ONLY questions that have not really been asked/answered are:
1) were they really only delivering food/aid, if so, an independant observer from the UN can verify all this, if this is genuinely the case, then Israel KNEW any attempt at boarding may be met with limited resistance, and surely boarding with commandoes armed to the teeth was a bad idea, just sending an independant observer FIRST was the way to go??
2) This was heavily publicised, witha lot of Turkish nationals on board. Any sane person from Israel would see that the action taken would bring almost complete condemnation from the outside world, but they went ahead anyway.
3) If, as reported, the flotilla of ships had been notified earlier on, and seen it all coming via radar, and they had nothing to hide, they would have heaved to, and allowed themselves to be boarded easily, after all, they were in INTERNATIONAL waters, and doing nothing wrong.....
4) No-body had to be killed, just "arrested", WHY??
5) Afterwards, why did Israel just take all the ships to its own port and intern all crew and passengers? surely they cannot do that if the ships are in INTERNATIONAL waters, otherwise it is counted as PIRACY???
6) What gives Israel the right to stop any person giving humanitarian aid to a "supposed" blockaded part of the country anyway? are there not laws preventing this signed by all in a treaty? (Human rights act 1974)
No sides taken here, as a bit confused, but cannot see the events are justified in any way, and if they have legally done this, surely they should have informed the UN or somebody in the world similar of their intentions, and "legalized" themselves somewhat? :-/
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I think the ONLY questions that have not really been asked/answered are:
1) were they really only delivering food/aid, if so, an independant observer from the UN can verify all this, if this is genuinely the case, then Israel KNEW any attempt at boarding may be met with limited resistance, and surely boarding with commandoes armed to the teeth was a bad idea, just sending an independant observer FIRST was the way to go??
2) This was heavily publicised, witha lot of Turkish nationals on board. Any sane person from Israel would see that the action taken would bring almost complete condemnation from the outside world, but they went ahead anyway.
3) If, as reported, the flotilla of ships had been notified earlier on, and seen it all coming via radar, and they had nothing to hide, they would have heaved to, and allowed themselves to be boarded easily, after all, they were in INTERNATIONAL waters, and doing nothing wrong.....
4) No-body had to be killed, just "arrested", WHY??
5) Afterwards, why did Israel just take all the ships to its own port and intern all crew and passengers? surely they cannot do that if the ships are in INTERNATIONAL waters, otherwise it is counted as PIRACY???
6) What gives Israel the right to stop any person giving humanitarian aid to a "supposed" blockaded part of the country anyway? are there not laws preventing this signed by all in a treaty? (Human rights act 1974)
No sides taken here, as a bit confused, but cannot see the events are justified in any way, and if they have legally done this, surely they should have informed the UN or somebody in the world similar of their intentions, and "legalized" themselves somewhat? :-/
It was clearly stated yesterday SS that the cargo's were fully checked by independant inspectors whilst in a Turkish port. However of course none of us can really confirm that, but it was stated that even concrete to be used for the rebuilding of Gaza would be objected to by Israel! ::) ::)
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Mmm. appears this will be a big arguing point in the UN, unless documentation can be produced verifying this, everybody (including me) must come to the conclution Israel is just trying to "starve out" palestinians by denying them food, and everyday items so they will leave the Gaza strip..........However, SANE and INTELLIGENT people must look into this closely, because America will be very careful to make sure its supply chains of arms to Israel are not compromised too, and will not want to" rock the boat" very hard and upset anybody.
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Could the following shed any light on this topic? -
Hamas control (2007–present) -
Hamas take-over of the Strip
In June 2007, the Palestinian Civil War between Hamas (Islamic Resistance Movement) and Fatah (Palestine Liberation Movement) intensified. Hamas routed Fatah after winning the democratic election, and by the 14th of June, controlled the Gaza Strip. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas responded by declaring a state of emergency, dissolving the unity government and forming a new government without Hamas participation. PNA security forces in the West Bank arrested a number of Hamas members.
Abbas's government received widespread international support. In late June 2008 Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia said that the West Bank-based Cabinet formed by Abbas was the sole legitimate Palestinian government, and Egypt moved its embassy from Gaza to the West Bank.[46] The Hamas government in the Gaza Strip faces international, diplomatic, and economic isolation.However, both Saudi Arabia and Egypt supported reconciliation and the forming of a new unity government, and pressed Abbas to start serious talks with Hamas. Abbas had always conditioned this on Hamas returning control of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority. Hamas has been invited to and has visited a number of countries, including Russia, and in the EU countries, opposition parties and politicians called for a dialogue with Hamas and an end to the economic sanctions.
After the takeover, Israel and Egypt closed its border crossings with Gaza. Palestinian sources reported that European Union monitors fled the Rafah Border Crossing, on the Gaza-Israel border for fear of being kidnapped or harmed.[47] Arab foreign ministers and Palestinian officials presented a united front against control of the border by Hamas.[48]
Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[49]
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Do me a bloody favour & read my posts ::)
They KNEW the marines were coming as they had prior warnings for OVER A WEEK AGO :o
Also ships nowadays have radar! The IDF boarded the ships to take them to the port NOT to kill them ::)
Don't worry always do!! :-* :-* :-*
So warnings, and it follows as every humantarian aid ship to Gaza has been illegally intercepted by Israel to date, make the action in international water ok then?
On that basis the Somali pirates are in the right when they attack international ships as the Captains have fair warning it is going to happen??! ::) ::) ::)
Don't think so! ;) ;)
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
It is hoped that enough of the international community will put pressure on that to stop this from happening, but the signs are not good with the USA already seemingly taking a pro-Israel stance ::) ::) ::)
Well, at least it's a balance to your anti-Israel stance. ::)
funnily enough, Turkey officially were pro-Israel....well until around 4am yesterday morning anyway :o
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
It is hoped that enough of the international community will put pressure on that to stop this from happening, but the signs are not good with the USA already seemingly taking a pro-Israel stance ::) ::) ::)
Well, at least it's a balance to your anti-Israel stance. ::)
funnily enough, Turkey officially were pro-Israel....well until around 4am yesterday morning anyway :o
Well said BJ as Israel are even losing the friends they had ::) ::) ::)
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Do me a bloody favour & read my posts ::)
They KNEW the marines were coming as they had prior warnings for OVER A WEEK AGO :o
Also ships nowadays have radar! The IDF boarded the ships to take them to the port NOT to kill them ::)
Don't worry always do!! :-* :-* :-*
So warnings, and it follows as every humantarian aid ship to Gaza has been illegally intercepted by Israel to date, make the action in international water ok then?
On that basis the Somali pirates are in the right when they attack international ships as the Captains have fair warning it is going to happen??! ::) ::) ::)
Don't think so! ;) ;)
So why don't u & me go over to Tel Aviv stay in one of their fabulous hotels, maybe the honeymoon suite ;) & discuss this further :P :o :-* :-*
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Good discussion on Radio 2 at the mo, lot of sense said too......
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
My understandng is that the ship came from occupied Northern Cyprus, which is not a sovereign state - european or otherwise. ::)
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Do me a bloody favour & read my posts ::)
They KNEW the marines were coming as they had prior warnings for OVER A WEEK AGO :o
Also ships nowadays have radar! The IDF boarded the ships to take them to the port NOT to kill them ::)
Don't worry always do!! :-* :-* :-*
So warnings, and it follows as every humantarian aid ship to Gaza has been illegally intercepted by Israel to date, make the action in international water ok then?
On that basis the Somali pirates are in the right when they attack international ships as the Captains have fair warning it is going to happen??! ::) ::) ::)
Don't think so! ;) ;)
So why don't u & me go over to Tel Aviv stay in one of their fabulous hotels, maybe the honeymoon suite ;) & discuss this further :P :o :-* :-*
mmmmmmmmm What a tempting offer!! 8-) 8-) :D :D ;)
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providing you don't go by boat.................???
Wouldn't Lizzie be taking her two big bazookas???
(sorry.....could'nt resist it.....) :D :D :D
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providing you don't go by boat.................???
Wouldn't Lizzie be taking her two big bazookas???
(sorry.....could'nt resist it.....) :D :D :D
Trouble is SS they would never admit me to their country after all that I have written about them! ::) ::) :D :D :D :D :D ;)
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
It is hoped that enough of the international community will put pressure on that to stop this from happening, but the signs are not good with the USA already seemingly taking a pro-Israel stance ::) ::) ::)
Well, at least it's a balance to your anti-Israel stance. ::)
funnily enough, Turkey officially were pro-Israel....well until around 4am yesterday morning anyway :o
yep.. now Israel must be proud of the international fiasco because after yesterday they can write whole 75 million nation to the hamas side.. well done.. ;D
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
My understandng is that the ship came from occupied Northern Cyprus, which is not a sovereign state - european or otherwise. ::)
I feel a bit provocation here ;D
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CREEEEAK!!
(sound of can of worms being opened......)
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nah.. result .. egypt is now opening the border for those aids.. ;D
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Does that now mean the border from Egypt is open to allow aid into Gaza by land??
Oh dear, methinks the old egypt/israel argument is going to escalate again..........
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Does that now mean the border from Egypt is open to allow aid into Gaza by land??
Oh dear, methinks the old egypt/israel argument is going to escalate again..........
yep..
this time there will be a difference.. we are definitely a side ..
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nah.. result .. egypt is now opening the border for those aids.. ;D
That is good news Cem! 8-) 8-) ;)
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Unfortunately, this was never really "settled" by either party.........I can see this ending up with fighting and further bloodshed. I hope not, but there is a history of this, and history does tend to repeat itself...........
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Unfortunately, this was never really "settled" by either party.........I can see this ending up with fighting and further bloodshed. I hope not, but there is a history of this, and history does tend to repeat itself...........
I'm afraid so..
but israel must understand that this nation now is keeping an angry eye on them..
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Would you think that the Turkish government would ever take "decisive action" against Israel? after all, some of their nationals died in this latest incident.......?
To be honest, I would'nt blame them for being pro-active!
(but it would escalate then, and worse would happen, so maybe not)
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Would you think that the Turkish government would ever take "decisive action" against Israel? after all, some of their nationals died in this latest incident.......?
To be honest, I would'nt blame them for being pro-active!
(but it would escalate then, and worse would happen, so maybe not)
The latest Israeli action has now put tremendous additional diplomatic strain on a violatile situation in a region of the world that is a tinder box. The world powers, the UN, USA and the rest of the Security Council need to take firm action over this to stop it escalating beyond control.
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Would you think that the Turkish government would ever take "decisive action" against Israel? after all, some of their nationals died in this latest incident.......?
To be honest, I would'nt blame them for being pro-active!
(but it would escalate then, and worse would happen, so maybe not)
I dont expect in the short period.. but in case, a problem arises again, wont hesitate ..
because in international language, attacking a ship when there were many alternatives means humiliation.. that we cant permit..
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For those interested, this is a long summary of the legal situation in respect of international law surrounding the Palestinians and Gaza written by an international lawyer mentioning Israeli ex-PM Sharon :
[size=24]"[/size]At the Brussels' Palace of Justice on March 6, 2002, Souad Srour El Meri, one of 28 Palestinians filing war crimes charges against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the 1982 massacre of Sabra-Shatila, shows a photo of Arab children killed by Sharon's proxies. A Brussels appeals' court is considering putting Sharon on trial for war crimes he perpetrated in Lebanon.
The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation
Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: "Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;..." Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.
The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are "protected persons" within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.
There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.
So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian people are defending themselves and their land and their homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian.
The U.N. Human Rights Commission
Indeed, it is far more serious than that. On 19 October 2000 a Special Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a Resolution set forth in U.N. Document E/CN.4/S-5/L.2/Rev. 1, "Condemning the provocative visit to Al-Haram Al-Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians." The U.N. Human Rights Commission then said it was "[g]ravely concerned" about several different types of atrocities inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinian People, which it denominated "war crimes, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law and crimes against humanity."
In operative paragraph 1 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: "Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity..." And in paragraph 5 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission:"Also affirms that the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians and children by the Israeli occupying authorities constitutes a flagrant and grave violation of the right to life and also constitutes a crime against humanity;..." Article 68 of the United Nations Charter had expressly required the U.N.'s Economic and Social Council to "set up" this Commission "for the promotion of human rights."
Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians
We all have a general idea of what a war crime is, so I am not going to elaborate upon that term here. But there are different degrees of heinousness for war crimes. In particular are the more serious war crimes denominated "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Since the start of the Al Aqsa Intifada, the world has seen those inflicted every day by Israel against the Palestinian People living in occupied Palestine: e.g., willful killing of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army and Israel's illegal paramilitary settlers. These Israeli "grave breaches" of the Fourth Geneva Convention mandate universal prosecution for their perpetrators, whether military or civilian, as well as prosecution for their commanders, whether military or civilian, including Israel's political leaders.
Israel's Crimes Against Humanity
I want to focus for a moment on Israel's "crime against humanity" against the Palestinian People -- as determined by the U.N. Human Rights Commission itself, set up pursuant to the requirements of the United Nations Charter. What is a "crime against humanity"? This concept goes all the way back to the Nuremberg Charter of 1945 for the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. And in the Nuremberg Charter of 1945, drafted by the United States Government, there was created and inserted a new type of international crime specifically intended to deal with the Nazi persecution of the Jewish People.
The paradigmatic example of a "crime against humanity" is what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People. This is where the concept of crime against humanity came from. And this is what the U.N. Human Rights Commission determined that Israel is currently doing to the Palestinian People: Crimes against humanity. Legally, just like what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews".
..c/
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continued from previous post:
[size=24]"[/size]The Precursor to Genocide
Moreover, a crime against humanity is the direct historical and legal precursor to the international crime of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The theory here was that what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People required a special international treaty that would codify and universalize the Nuremberg concept of "crime against humanity." And that treaty ultimately became the 1948 Genocide Convention.
In fairness, you will note that the U.N. Human Rights Commission did not go so far as to condemn Israel for committing genocide against the Palestinian People. But it has condemned Israel for committing crimes against humanity, which is the direct precursor to genocide. And I submit that if something is not done quite soon by the American people and the International Community to stop Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity (and) against the Palestinian people, it could very well degenerate into genocide, if Israel is not there already. And in this regard, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is what international lawyers call a genocidaire--one who has already committed genocide in the past.[size=24]"[/size]
Francis A. Boyle / Law Building / 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave. / Champaign, IL 61820 USA
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If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? :o
Why does everyone not see that?? ::) ::) ::) ;) ;)
Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? :o
My understandng is that the ship came from occupied Northern Cyprus, which is not a sovereign state - european or otherwise. ::)
I feel a bit provocation here ;D
Not provocation at all Cem, just simple fact. ;)
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:-?
Lizzie you are amazing :y :y :y :y :y
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Why didn't the UN board the ship when it got to port and have inspectors look for weapons and bombs...?
Too busy debating the wording of resolutions once again. ;D ;D ;D
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What the idiotic anti jewish lawyer fails to recognise (or mention) in his long winded nonsensical rant is the fact that in a war against terrorists you are fighting cowards who wont put on a uniform and fight like a proper army. They mix and mingle among the general population in the knowledge that this will almost certainly result in some degree of damage to the innocents. They do this deliberately because they know that they can use it as an effective tool in the PR war which will be waged on their behalf by friendly media types and gullible people with no proper understanding of the issues involved. The problems experienced by the people of Gaza are the responsibilty of the terrorists in their midst, not the fault of he Israelis. ;)
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providing you don't go by boat.................???
Wouldn't Lizzie be taking her two big bazookas???
(sorry.....could'nt resist it.....) :D :D :D
Hmmmmmm!! Looks like i won't be off to Israel with Elizabeth :'( :'(
cos seems like LizziaZoom will be anchoring her 2 big bazookas :P :P in Ankara/Turkey with Cem ::) ::) ::)
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providing you don't go by boat.................???
Wouldn't Lizzie be taking her two big bazookas???
(sorry.....could'nt resist it.....) :D :D :D
Hmmmmmm!! Looks like i won't be off to Israel with Elizabeth :'( :'(
cos seems like LizziaZoom will be anchoring her 2 big bazookas :P :P in Ankara/Turkey with Cem ::) ::) ::)
:) ;D ::)
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y :y
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Taken from to-days Guardian newspaper -
Headline : Israel's Media Assumes A Critical Stance On The Military's Handling Of The Situation.....
Israel's media is more critical today than it was in the immediate aftermath of the raid on the Gaza aid flotilla, raising the question that, while justified, the Israeli military response may have been badly handled. There were also complaints that Israel bungled its international PR.
Yesterday's coverage mostly surmised that the Israeli army had to respond as it did, in the face of a violent, premeditated and provocative assault. "They chose this way," said Alon Ben David, defence correspondent of Israel's Channel 10, of the activists aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of the Gaza flotilla ships on which at least nine people were killed and dozens injured. "Israeli forces had no choice but to open fire and the result was much worse than we'd wanted."
Israeli journalists corroborated the army accounts of an attack by violent protesters bearing knives and metal bars. Ron Ben-Yishai, a veteran war correspondent aboard the Victory, an Israeli missile ship, wrote a piece headlined 'A Brutal Ambush at Sea', in which he suggested that those being violently ambushed were the Israeli army. He wrote that the naval forces that stormed the flotilla were unprepared for the "severe assault" that awaited them and only fired when under attack.
The incident was routinely depicted as a "lynching" of Israeli forces during the dawn raid on the aid flotilla, and reporters referred to "peace-lovers bearing sticks and knives," as one journalist for Israel's Channel 1 put it.
Today, many media commentators are angered that Israel did not release its version of events sooner. Writing in Yediot Aharonot, Roni Sofer holds that Israeli officials failed on PR, allowing "harsh accusations against the violent Israel" to go unchallenged for hours.
Writing in Haaretz, military correspondent Amos Harel berated the Israeli army for falling into a trap set by the aid flotilla, landing the nation in a "diplomatic mess". He insisted, though, that the military did nothing wrong and should not have been put in that position.
This argument is repeated across the comment pages of the mass circulation dailies Ma'ariv and Yediot Aharonot today. Soldiers are praised for their actions, politicians chastised for putting the nation's forces in a compromising situation. Yediot Aharonot's front page splash, headlined 'The Trap', reports that nine civilians aboard the aid boats died because the army didn't have enough information about the strength of resistance it would face on the flotilla. The paper's finance editor, Sever Plocker, referred to a "provocative trap set by Hamas" and called for the defence minister, Ehud Barak, to resign.
Another of the paper's columnists, appearing in the English edition, said that Israel should not be apologising for its actions. "It doesn't look good and the images it produces aren't pretty, yet the lives of Israeli citizens are more important than any scathing diplomatic protest," wrote Yoaz Hendel.
Ma'ariv's front page accused the government of "stuttering and shifting blame" over what happened, and criticised Israel's "informational failure".
Yesterday, a leftwing former minister, Yossi Beilin, noted that Israel had the worst hasbara – or spin – team possible in the current government, which includes the foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, and his deputy, Danny Ayalon. "Change the team," he advised on Israeli TV. "First of all we should apologise over the death of civilians and then open an inquiry."
Broadcast media focused this morning on global demonstrations in protest at Israel's raid. Israeli army radio had a London-based reporter effectively describing yesterday's demonstrations in the capital as an anti-Israel hate-fest.
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Interesting!! ::) ::) ::)
Maybe the blinkers will eventually fall off! ::) ::) ::)
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some pictures from different countries showing what people feel..
http://fotograf.gazetevatan.com/fotogaleri/resim.asp?kat=14602&page_number=1
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some pictures from different countries showing what people feel..
http://fotograf.gazetevatan.com/fotogaleri/resim.asp?kat=14602&page_number=1
Great pictures there Cem! :y :y :y :y :y
The affair has certainly ignited peoples opinion across the democratic world 8-) 8-) 8-)
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What the idiotic anti jewish lawyer fails to recognise (or mention) in his long winded nonsensical rant is the fact that in a war against terrorists you are fighting cowards who wont put on a uniform and fight like a proper army. They mix and mingle among the general population in the knowledge that this will almost certainly result in some degree of damage to the innocents. They do this deliberately because they know that they can use it as an effective tool in the PR war which will be waged on their behalf by friendly media types and gullible people with no proper understanding of the issues involved. The problems experienced by the people of Gaza are the responsibilty of the terrorists in their midst, not the fault of he Israelis. ;)
Thank you very much for that statement with which I agree completely.
It's a pity that no-one will take any notice. Somebody mentioned the Israeli propaganda machine. Compared to the Palestinian media circus, you hardly notice it.
Regrettably, it isn't possible to enter into a meaningful discussion with the anti-Israel factions either here or anywhere else. What I can't understand is why they can't see that (in modern times) it's not the Israelis who are conducting a terrorist campaign.
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What the idiotic anti jewish lawyer fails to recognise (or mention) in his long winded nonsensical rant is the fact that in a war against terrorists you are fighting cowards who wont put on a uniform and fight like a proper army. They mix and mingle among the general population in the knowledge that this will almost certainly result in some degree of damage to the innocents. They do this deliberately because they know that they can use it as an effective tool in the PR war which will be waged on their behalf by friendly media types and gullible people with no proper understanding of the issues involved. The problems experienced by the people of Gaza are the responsibilty of the terrorists in their midst, not the fault of he Israelis. ;)
Thank you very much for that statement with which I agree completely.
It's a pity that no-one will take any notice. Somebody mentioned the Israeli propaganda machine. Compared to the Palestinian media circus, you hardly notice it.
Regrettably, it isn't possible to enter into a meaningful discussion with the anti-Israel factions either here or anywhere else. What I can't understand is why they can't see that (in modern times) it's not the Israelis who are conducting a terrorist campaign.
Israel itself is a terrorist state in our view.. and yes no reason to discuss the obvious..
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What the idiotic anti jewish lawyer fails to recognise (or mention) in his long winded nonsensical rant is the fact that in a war against terrorists you are fighting cowards who wont put on a uniform and fight like a proper army. They mix and mingle among the general population in the knowledge that this will almost certainly result in some degree of damage to the innocents. They do this deliberately because they know that they can use it as an effective tool in the PR war which will be waged on their behalf by friendly media types and gullible people with no proper understanding of the issues involved. The problems experienced by the people of Gaza are the responsibilty of the terrorists in their midst, not the fault of he Israelis. ;)
Thank you very much for that statement with which I agree completely.
It's a pity that no-one will take any notice. Somebody mentioned the Israeli propaganda machine. Compared to the Palestinian media circus, you hardly notice it.
Regrettably, it isn't possible to enter into a meaningful discussion with the anti-Israel factions either here or anywhere else. What I can't understand is why they can't see that (in modern times) it's not the Israelis who are conducting a terrorist campaign.
Israel itself is a terrorist state in our view.. and yes no reason to discuss the obvious..
....Agreed Cem......and a lot of people are coming around to this point of view... The Palestinian people and Hamas are freedom fighters......and in my opinion have every right to be more than a little pissed at Israel.
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What the idiotic anti jewish lawyer fails to recognise (or mention) in his long winded nonsensical rant is the fact that in a war against terrorists you are fighting cowards who wont put on a uniform and fight like a proper army. They mix and mingle among the general population in the knowledge that this will almost certainly result in some degree of damage to the innocents. They do this deliberately because they know that they can use it as an effective tool in the PR war which will be waged on their behalf by friendly media types and gullible people with no proper understanding of the issues involved. The problems experienced by the people of Gaza are the responsibilty of the terrorists in their midst, not the fault of he Israelis. ;)
Thank you very much for that statement with which I agree completely.
It's a pity that no-one will take any notice. Somebody mentioned the Israeli propaganda machine. Compared to the Palestinian media circus, you hardly notice it.
Regrettably, it isn't possible to enter into a meaningful discussion with the anti-Israel factions either here or anywhere else. What I can't understand is why they can't see that (in modern times) it's not the Israelis who are conducting a terrorist campaign.
Israel itself is a terrorist state in our view.. and yes no reason to discuss the obvious..
....Agreed Cem......and a lot of people are coming around to this point of view... The Palestinian people and Hamas are freedom fighters......and in my opinion have every right to be more than a little pissed at Israel.
:y :y :y
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What the idiotic anti jewish lawyer fails to recognise (or mention) in his long winded nonsensical rant is the fact that in a war against terrorists you are fighting cowards who wont put on a uniform and fight like a proper army. They mix and mingle among the general population in the knowledge that this will almost certainly result in some degree of damage to the innocents. They do this deliberately because they know that they can use it as an effective tool in the PR war which will be waged on their behalf by friendly media types and gullible people with no proper understanding of the issues involved. The problems experienced by the people of Gaza are the responsibilty of the terrorists in their midst, not the fault of he Israelis. ;)
Thank you very much for that statement with which I agree completely.
It's a pity that no-one will take any notice. Somebody mentioned the Israeli propaganda machine. Compared to the Palestinian media circus, you hardly notice it.
Regrettably, it isn't possible to enter into a meaningful discussion with the anti-Israel factions either here or anywhere else. What I can't understand is why they can't see that (in modern times) it's not the Israelis who are conducting a terrorist campaign.
Israel itself is a terrorist state in our view.. and yes no reason to discuss the obvious..
....Agreed Cem......and a lot of people are coming around to this point of view... The Palestinian people and Hamas are freedom fighters......and in my opinion have every right to be more than a little pissed at Israel.
Terrorism Terrorist principles and practices; the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the fact of terrorizing or being terrorized. Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Sixth Edition Oxford University Press (2007)
Considering Israel's continued breach of various UN laws, including human rights, International Laws of Belligerent Occupation, with Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians, Israel's Crimes Against Humanity (see my International Lawyers extract on page 9), the act of piracy against a Turkish flagged vessel in International Waters, all of their past illegal acts on the soil of Gaza, along with the illegal use of British passports to further their aims, yes Israel are a terrorist state, who without USA protection would have been declared "an axis of evil" many moons ago >:( >:(
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What the idiotic anti jewish lawyer fails to recognise (or mention) in his long winded nonsensical rant is the fact that in a war against terrorists you are fighting cowards who wont put on a uniform and fight like a proper army. They mix and mingle among the general population in the knowledge that this will almost certainly result in some degree of damage to the innocents. They do this deliberately because they know that they can use it as an effective tool in the PR war which will be waged on their behalf by friendly media types and gullible people with no proper understanding of the issues involved. The problems experienced by the people of Gaza are the responsibilty of the terrorists in their midst, not the fault of he Israelis. ;)
Thank you very much for that statement with which I agree completely.
It's a pity that no-one will take any notice. Somebody mentioned the Israeli propaganda machine. Compared to the Palestinian media circus, you hardly notice it.
Regrettably, it isn't possible to enter into a meaningful discussion with the anti-Israel factions either here or anywhere else. What I can't understand is why they can't see that (in modern times) it's not the Israelis who are conducting a terrorist campaign.
Israel itself is a terrorist state in our view.. and yes no reason to discuss the obvious..
....Agreed Cem......and a lot of people are coming around to this point of view... The Palestinian people and Hamas are freedom fighters......and in my opinion have every right to be more than a little pissed at Israel.
Terrorism Terrorist principles and practices; the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the fact of terrorizing or being terrorized. Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Sixth Edition Oxford University Press (2007)
Considering Israel's continued breach of various UN laws, including human rights, International Laws of Belligerent Occupation, with Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians, Israel's Crimes Against Humanity (see my International Lawyers extract on page 9), the act of piracy against a Turkish flagged vessel in International Waters, all of their past illegal acts on the soil of Gaza, along with the illegal use of British passports to further their aims, yes Israel are a terrorist state, who without USA protection would have been declared "an axis of evil" many moons ago >:( >:(
spot on Lizzie .. as usual.. :y :y :y
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This thread is becoming positively anti-semitic. No doubt that will be denied, but have a good look at your comments. Shame if the whole discussion was binned after all the trouble you've gone to.
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This thread is becoming positively anti-semitic. No doubt that will be denied, but have a good look at your comments. Shame if the whole discussion was binned after all the trouble you've gone to.
STMO, we have too many jewish citizens and the first paragraph of our prime minister ( I hate to say this cause I dont like him) includes a sentence like that "seperate israel govt from the israel citizens.. (as you did say- and very correct) seperate the problem from a muslim-jewish conflict and behave our jewish citizens as usual.. and I advise israel citizens to change that govt as soon as possible.. because their doing much harm to their country then anything else."
(and I advice my people to change the govt asap ;D)
and must admit the first writer I read daily is a jewish origin Turkish writer.. so no problems here..
you know me, you know my opinions about religion..
so I dont see further necessity to explain..
so I dont see necessity for further explanation..
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This thread is becoming positively anti-semitic. No doubt that will be denied, but have a good look at your comments. Shame if the whole discussion was binned after all the trouble you've gone to.
Thanks for your concern :y :y
However what is being debated is fact, but in all debates there can be a polarisation on how those facts are interrupted.
If there was a fear on the OOF of expressing one's political feelings about all the subjects we discuss then it will be a very sad day, with democracy, freedom and liberty departing the scene. We know how many on here rightly argue that they should be able to access free speech ;) ;)
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This thread is becoming positively anti-semitic. No doubt that will be denied, but have a good look at your comments. Shame if the whole discussion was binned after all the trouble you've gone to.
STMO, we have too many jewish citizens and the first paragraph of our prime minister ( I hate to say this cause I dont like him) includes a sentence like that "seperate israel govt from the israel citizens.. (as you did say- and very correct) seperate the problem from a muslim-jewish conflict and behave our jewish citizens as usual.. and I advise israel citizens to change that govt as soon as possible.. because their doing much harm to their country then anything else."
and must admit the first writer I read daily is a jewish origin Turkish writer.. so problems here..
you know me, you know my opinions about religion..
so I dont see further necessity to explain..
That's fair enough Cem, but I don't see that there's really much point in continuing in the same vein. It's all been said.
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This thread is becoming positively anti-semitic. No doubt that will be denied, but have a good look at your comments. Shame if the whole discussion was binned after all the trouble you've gone to.
Thanks for your concern :y :y
However what is being debated is fact, but in all debates there can be a polarisation on how those facts are interrupted.
If there was a fear on the OOF of expressing one's political feelings about all the subjects we discuss then it will be a very sad day, with democracy, freedom and liberty departing the scene. We know how many on here rightly argue that they should be able to access free speech ;) ;)
I doubt that very much, and it wasn't concern, it was disgust.
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This thread is becoming positively anti-semitic. No doubt that will be denied, but have a good look at your comments. Shame if the whole discussion was binned after all the trouble you've gone to.
STMO, we have too many jewish citizens and the first paragraph of our prime minister ( I hate to say this cause I dont like him) includes a sentence like that "seperate israel govt from the israel citizens.. (as you did say- and very correct) seperate the problem from a muslim-jewish conflict and behave our jewish citizens as usual.. and I advise israel citizens to change that govt as soon as possible.. because their doing much harm to their country then anything else."
and must admit the first writer I read daily is a jewish origin Turkish writer.. so problems here..
you know me, you know my opinions about religion..
so I dont see further necessity to explain..
That's fair enough Cem, but I don't see that there's really much point in continuing in the same vein. It's all been said.
yes.. all been said.. but some idiots bring two nation in the doors of war.. we cant calm down easly.. :-/ :-X
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I was listening to a woman who was one of the leaders of the organisation in charge of the flotilla being interviewed on Radio 4 earlier. The interviewer put it to her the Israel had informed them that they intended to have the cargo unloaded and inspected at an Israeli port, but if that was unacceptable they would agree to this happening at an Egyptian port.
She didnt deny this but stated that this would have defeated the purpose of them being there. The whole reason for the voyage was to break the blockade, and to have the ship unloaded in Egypt would have meant the mission had failed
Israel lifted the blockade and had a ceasefire a couple of years ago, but within days Hamas had started firing rockets into Israel again, so the ceasefire was cancelled and the blockade reinstated.
To call Hamas freedom fighters is beyond stupid - words fail me. They are terrorists who strongly support other terrorist groups across the globe. They are part of the network of terrorists who need to be eliminated wherever they are found.
As Jereboam said, the Palestinian terrorists have a huge network of PR representatives around the world who brainwash the gullible lefties in every country.
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I was listening to a woman who was one of the leaders of the organisation in charge of the flotilla being interviewed on Radio 4 earlier. The interviewer put it to her the Israel had informed them that they intended to have the cargo unloaded and inspected at an Israeli port, but if that was unacceptable they would agree to this happening at an Egyptian port.
She didnt deny this but stated that this would have defeated the purpose of them being there. The whole reason for the voyage was to break the blockade, and to have the ship unloaded in Egypt would have meant the mission had failed
Israel lifted the blockade and had a ceasefire a couple of years ago, but within days Hamas had started firing rockets into Israel again, so the ceasefire was cancelled and the blockade reinstated.
To call Hamas freedom fighters is beyond stupid - words fail me. They are terrorists who strongly support other terrorist groups across the globe. They are part of the network of terrorists who need to be eliminated wherever they are found.
As Jereboam said, the Palestinian terrorists have a huge network of PR representatives around the world who brainwash the gullible lefties in every country.
here we go again ;D
STMOOO..
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I was listening to a woman who was one of the leaders of the organisation in charge of the flotilla being interviewed on Radio 4 earlier. The interviewer put it to her the Israel had informed them that they intended to have the cargo unloaded and inspected at an Israeli port, but if that was unacceptable they would agree to this happening at an Egyptian port.
She didnt deny this but stated that this would have defeated the purpose of them being there. The whole reason for the voyage was to break the blockade, and to have the ship unloaded in Egypt would have meant the mission had failed
Israel lifted the blockade and had a ceasefire a couple of years ago, but within days Hamas had started firing rockets into Israel again, so the ceasefire was cancelled and the blockade reinstated.
To call Hamas freedom fighters is beyond stupid - words fail me. They are terrorists who strongly support other terrorist groups across the globe. They are part of the network of terrorists who need to be eliminated wherever they are found.
As Jereboam said, the Palestinian terrorists have a huge network of PR representatives around the world who brainwash the gullible lefties in every country.
i agree fully
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Cem - do you know much about an organisation called IHH ?
http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2010/05/31/flotilla-sponsored-by-violent-extremist-group-that-supports-terrorist-organizations-ihh/
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/CIA_Report_on_NGOs_With_Terror_Links
http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010053110393/global-terrorism/portrait-of-ihh-international-humanitaire-hilfsorganization.html
The other 5 ships boarded by the Israelis presented no problems. The sixth ship however embarked on stabbing and serious beating s soon as Israelis started boarding. It was a set up, to produce yet more propoganda for the Hamas cause. ;)
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I was listening to a woman who was one of the leaders of the organisation in charge of the flotilla being interviewed on Radio 4 earlier. The interviewer put it to her the Israel had informed them that they intended to have the cargo unloaded and inspected at an Israeli port, but if that was unacceptable they would agree to this happening at an Egyptian port.
She didnt deny this but stated that this would have defeated the purpose of them being there. The whole reason for the voyage was to break the blockade, and to have the ship unloaded in Egypt would have meant the mission had failed
Israel lifted the blockade and had a ceasefire a couple of years ago, but within days Hamas had started firing rockets into Israel again, so the ceasefire was cancelled and the blockade reinstated.
To call Hamas freedom fighters is beyond stupid - words fail me. They are terrorists who strongly support other terrorist groups across the globe. They are part of the network of terrorists who need to be eliminated wherever they are found.
As Jereboam said, the Palestinian terrorists have a huge network of PR representatives around the world who brainwash the gullible lefties in every country.
Democratically elected ....I think you'll find. Perhaps you do not believe in democracy... ::) ::) ;)
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Cem - do you know much about an organisation called IHH ?
http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2010/05/31/flotilla-sponsored-by-violent-extremist-group-that-supports-terrorist-organizations-ihh/
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/CIA_Report_on_NGOs_With_Terror_Links
http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010053110393/global-terrorism/portrait-of-ihh-international-humanitaire-hilfsorganization.html
The other 5 ships boarded by the Israelis presented no problems. The sixth ship however embarked on stabbing and serious beating s soon as Israelis started boarding. It was a set up, to produce yet more propoganda for the Hamas cause. ;)
of course I know about those..
and dont think our govt is not been criticised here..
but this doesnt justify killing civils on another nations ship on international waters or using phosphor bombs on palestinians or wiping them from their homes with tanks..
if you are a normal state and you are sure of your power you could solve -at least- this problem simply without shaming your nation..
what would happen if we also send the naval army and commandos to the region over the ships..
Israel as usual makes its decision and choose to solve the problems in blood not in peace..
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I was listening to a woman who was one of the leaders of the organisation in charge of the flotilla being interviewed on Radio 4 earlier. The interviewer put it to her the Israel had informed them that they intended to have the cargo unloaded and inspected at an Israeli port, but if that was unacceptable they would agree to this happening at an Egyptian port.
She didnt deny this but stated that this would have defeated the purpose of them being there. The whole reason for the voyage was to break the blockade, and to have the ship unloaded in Egypt would have meant the mission had failed
Israel lifted the blockade and had a ceasefire a couple of years ago, but within days Hamas had started firing rockets into Israel again, so the ceasefire was cancelled and the blockade reinstated.
To call Hamas freedom fighters is beyond stupid - words fail me. They are terrorists who strongly support other terrorist groups across the globe. They are part of the network of terrorists who need to be eliminated wherever they are found.
As Jereboam said, the Palestinian terrorists have a huge network of PR representatives around the world who brainwash the gullible lefties in every country.
Democratically elected ....I think you'll find. Perhaps you do not believe in democracy... ::) ::) ;)
I think you will find the election was fiddled.
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and for the hamas,
dialectic says that a power creates its contrary..
they are the result of all those years that palestinians suffer ..
yes, they are poor people and the only thing they have is their religion.. so its normal for them to use it as a flag..but who created them..
and a final note for that us service, they are more harmful than anything else on the world..
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
Please don't feel sorry for me PF I'm quite clear headed on this matter - although I have no inclination to get into the matter at the moment as I've been ill since yesterday.
Forgive me therefore for not jumping onto to the bandwagen of this outpouring of sympathy for those involved - yet another incident, used as always, by the faceless people whose declared aim is to 'wipe Israel from the face of the map' >:( >:(
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
Please don't feel sorry for me PF I'm quite clear headed on this matter - although I have no inclination to get into the matter at the moment as I've been ill since yesterday.
Forgive me therefore for not jumping onto to the bandwagen of this outpouring of sympathy for those involved - yet another incident, used as always, by the faceless people whose declared aim is to 'wipe Israel from the face of the map' >:( >:(
wish you a quick recovery Zulu :y
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
Please don't feel sorry for me PF I'm quite clear headed on this matter - although I have no inclination to get into the matter at the moment as I've been ill since yesterday.
Forgive me therefore for not jumping onto to the bandwagen of this outpouring of sympathy for those involved - yet another incident, used as always, by the faceless people whose declared aim is to 'wipe Israel from the face of the map' >:( >:(
wish you a quick recovery Zulu :y
Thank you cem, as I type this I'm quite uncomfortable - physically speaking.
I hope this clears up soon :( :(
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The Jewish vote & funds are too important to politicians in the US as is the amount of money that they spend on US built armaments which is why America has never really condemned Israel for their continued acts of terrorism. Unless the US get really tough with Israel & impose heavy sanctions, they will continue to revel in victim status & act as if they have a divine right to do as they please while revelling in victim status as a result of events that took place in the 1930s & 40s.
Britain & the US created the problems of the middle east when they stole Palestine & gave it away to create the state of Israel, so this country is in part to blame.
I feel very sad for those who say that they support Israel & I speak as a Red-Sea pedestrian >:(
Please don't feel sorry for me PF I'm quite clear headed on this matter - although I have no inclination to get into the matter at the moment as I've been ill since yesterday.
Forgive me therefore for not jumping onto to the bandwagen of this outpouring of sympathy for those involved - yet another incident, used as always, by the faceless people whose declared aim is to 'wipe Israel from the face of the map' >:( >:(
wish you a quick recovery Zulu :y
Thank you cem, as I type this I'm quite uncomfortable - physically speaking.
I hope this clears up soon :( :(
Take some rest.. :y
we can discuss later..
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Mrs Clinton, the American Vice President has announced that the blockade of Gaza is "unsustainable and unacceptable".
Let us all hope that the United States will be able to bring long term change between the Palestinians and Israeli's, with peace and security for all. 8-) 8-) 8-)
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The Daily Mash sums it up nicely for me. :D ;D ;D
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/israel-just-making-it-easier-for-guardian-readers-to-look-good-201006012778/
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The Daily Mash sums it up nicely for me. :D ;D ;D
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/israel-just-making-it-easier-for-guardian-readers-to-look-good-201006012778/
.....I've been called cretinous......on more than one occasion.... ;D ;D ;)
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The Daily Mash sums it up nicely for me. :D ;D ;D
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/israel-just-making-it-easier-for-guardian-readers-to-look-good-201006012778/
[size=20]LOL!![/size] ;D ;D
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The Daily Mash sums it up nicely for me. :D ;D ;D
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/israel-just-making-it-easier-for-guardian-readers-to-look-good-201006012778/
;D ;D ;D
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I am writing the following in capitals cos i want to make a point -:
A FEW DAYS AGO A POST WAS WITHDRAWN BECAUSE 'ONE' OR 'TWO' PEOPLE HAD COMPLAINED IT HAD 'RACIST' REMARKS - IT CONCERNED THE BUYING OF A DOG! :-?
AS STATED I AM 'JEWISH' - BEING JEWISH IS NOT JUST A RELIGION BUT A 'RACE'
THE 'VAST' MAJORITY OF POSTS ON THIS TOPIC ARE AGAINST ISRAEL (A STATE FROM 1948 FOR 'JEWISH' PEOPLE WHO FOR CENTURIES HAVE BEEN MOVED FROM PILLAR TO POST FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES UNTIL SETTLING IN THE 'PROMISED LAND') :o
ISRAEL IS SURROUNDED ON ALL SIDES BY MUSLIM COUNTRIES - A FACT!
AS I HAVE BEEN READING POST AFTER POST AFTER POST etc CONCERNING ANTI-ISRAEL (WHICH IMPLIES ALL THE JEWISH PEOPLE) & I NOW FIND MYSELF BELIEVING, AS A JEW, THAT I'M BEING VICTIMISED :o
I SEE THIS AS 'ANTI-SEMITISM' (HATRED OF JEWISH PEOPLE) & 'RACISM' !! :o
IF, GOD FORBID, I WAS TO SAY THAT 'ALL' MUSLIMS (LAST COUNT 1.5 ''BILLION''!!) IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES WERE ''TERRORISTS'' BECAUSE OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS BEING MURDERED WITH REGARD TO ''9-11'' & ''LONDON'', WOULD MY TOPIC STILL BE POSTED??
I AM ASKING, THEREFORE, THAT AFTER TO-DAY , THAT THE ADMINISTATORS TAKE THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC OFF THE FORUM SITE.
I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THIS ONE SIDED DEBATE/DISCUSSION HAS GONE ON FOR SO LONG >:( >:( >:(
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I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion.
>:(
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I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion. >:(
Thank you :y :y :y
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I, among others, have not gone in on either side. But, as I mentioned yesterday, it is getting a bit unpleasant.
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wow, breathtaking - so no ones allowed to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic? who's accusing who of racism now exactly?
the fact is that the state of Israel (not the jewish people as a whole) are responsible for these constant over reactions. I live in a supposedly free country, and I will criticise any country (including my own) if I believe criticism is justified >:(
oh, as i've stated many times before - i don't give two hoots if you're jewish, muslim, christian or whatever the hell fairytale you're into :y
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I too, have not professed an opinion on either party, but merely asked questions to satisfy my own mind and curiosity.
as a comitted Christian, I cannot see how violence can solve any countries problems successfully, and apologize if any post I have made has caused offence.
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wow, breathtaking - so no ones allowed to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic? who's accusing who of racism now exactly?
the fact is that the state of Israel (not the jewish people as a whole) are responsible for these constant over reactions. I live in a supposedly free country, and I will criticise any country (including my own) if I believe criticism is justified >:(
Yes. But you're Scottish and it's common knowledge the all Jocks are alcoholic fat b@st@ds with the IQ of a rocking horse. ;D
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wow, breathtaking - so no ones allowed to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic? who's accusing who of racism now exactly?
the fact is that the state of Israel (not the jewish people as a whole) are responsible for these constant over reactions. I live in a supposedly free country, and I will criticise any country (including my own) if I believe criticism is justified >:(
Yes. But you're Scottish and it's common knowledge the all Jocks are alcoholic fat b@st@ds with the IQ of a rocking horse. ;D
that is knowledge...if you're common ;D
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I fully agree with your sentiments.It seems that it is ok to say things about certain people and countries but taboo to say them about other peoples and countries, in the UK these days.Israel has been referred to as a terrorist state in this thread and it would probably cause uproar to say this about certain other countries.
I would however ask you to think again about asking for the thread to be binned.There has been plenty of debate on both sides of the argument and imo if it was read by an impartial observer the pro Israeli argument would hold more water, being based more on logic/fact and less on emotion/ knee jerk reaction.
I suspect that like me you hold freedom - including freedom of speech, dearly. We may strongly disagree with what people say, but if we remove their right to say it we are in danger of sinking to the level of modern day left wing thinkng, which ime always uses any means possible to stop opinion which disagrees with it being heard. ;)
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I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion. >:(
Many people.... the world over......myself included ....believe that Israel is the cause of many of the problems we have all been discusssing..(I think in quite a reserved and objective manner actually) We should all be allowed our opinions in much the same way as the people who are supporters of Israel are.
P.S. Nickbat....you seem to believe in "free speech"so long as people agree with you.....which in my case is almost never...... :) :) ;)
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I fully agree with your sentiments.It seems that it is ok to say things about certain people and countries but taboo to say them about other peoples and countries, in the UK these days.Israel has been referred to as a terrorist state in this thread and it would probably cause uproar to say this about certain other countries.
I would however ask you to think again about asking for the thread to be binned.There has been plenty of debate on both sides of the argument and imo if it was read by an impartial observer the pro Israeli argument would hold more water, being based more on logic/fact and less on emotion/ knee jerk reaction.
I suspect that like me you hold freedom - including freedom of speech, dearly. We may strongly disagree with what people say, but if we remove their right to say it we are in danger of sinking to the level of modern day left wing thinkng, which ime always uses any means possible to stop opinion which disagrees with it being heard. ;)
I agree with albs on his main point - we shouldn't bin a discussion because people disagree - thats exactly what a discussion and debate is? :-?
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I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion. >:(
Many people.... the world over......myself included ....believe that Israel is the cause of many of the problems we have all been discusssing..(I think in quite a reserved and objective manner actually) We should all be allowed our opinions in much the same way as the people who are supporters of Israel are.
P.S. Nickbat....you seem to believe in "free speech"so long as people agree with you.....which in my case is almost never...... :) :) ;)
I'm not against free speech, as well you know. I have often had tussles with people over the UK election, global warming and so on., but this thread is clearly causing offence for some, which is to the detriment of the forum. I have never, nor would I ever, suggest anything against free speech, but this is a forum which is voluntarily run for the prime purpose of discussing cars. The fact is that we have the bonus of an open chat area, something I appreciate greatly. However, those taking part in the general chat area must accept that some members may take offence when political or religious issues are discussed and they should not try to hide behind the free speech defence.
If free speech is such a right, try posting a sexually explicit story on here. It would rightly be removed as it may cause offence. So there are limits, free speech aside.
And that's my point.
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This thread has mainly been going against Israel ......because of Israeli attrocities ....both recently and in the past......It's not rocket science guys.....Just my opinion (If I'm allowed one :-/ :-/)
Please feel free to disagree.... ;) ;)
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I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion. >:(
Many people.... the world over......myself included ....believe that Israel is the cause of many of the problems we have all been discusssing..(I think in quite a reserved and objective manner actually) We should all be allowed our opinions in much the same way as the people who are supporters of Israel are.
P.S. Nickbat....you seem to believe in "free speech"so long as people agree with you.....which in my case is almost never...... :) :) ;)
I'm not against free speech, as well you know. I have often had tussles with people over the UK election, global warming and so on., but this thread is clearly causing offence for some, which is to the detriment of the forum. I have never, nor would I ever, suggest anything against free speech, but this is a forum which is voluntarily run for the prime purpose of discussing cars. The fact is that we have the bonus of an open chat area, something I appreciate greatly. However, those taking part in the general chat area must accept that some members may take offence when political or religious issues are discussed and they should not try to hide behind the free speech defence.
If free speech is such a right, try posting a sexually explicit story on here. It would rightly be removed as it may cause offence. So there are limits, free speech aside.
And that's my point.
Yeah .....I accept by and large that you do believe in free speech Nick....but....in my opinion... you do tend to think that anyone who disagrees with you ( that's me ::)) is simply "too thick to understand " what you are saying...... ::) ::) :-*
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This thread has mainly been going against Israel ......because of Israeli attrocities ....both recently and in the past......It's not rocket science guys.....Just my opinion (If I'm allowed one :-/ :-/)
Please feel free to disagree.... ;) ;)
I wonder why the term "atrocities" is only ever used pejoratively in the same sentence as Israel? There has been precious little mention of the atrocities committed by others against Israel: Munich Olympics massacre (1972, 12 dead), the Haifa bus bombing (2003, 37 dead), the Tel Aviv disco bombing (2009, 21 dead), etc., etc., ::)
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The palestinian PR machine easily imbeds its language into the minds of the gullible. ;)
-
Netanyahu has lost his big brother in Entebbe..
his big brother was the captain of the commando team..
so this explains why he is full of hate..
and this picture nicely sums it up for me.. :)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x80/mecdv6/protestors.jpg)
and from unofficial info , our dear mr prime minister has ordered naval forces and airplanes to go with the last ship :o >:( but as I understand senates and soldiers convince him to give up.. what a mess..
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The palestinian PR machine easily imbeds its language into the minds of the gullible. ;)
i'm gullible for not swallowing the line from Israel? or are you gullible for swallowing it?
Always Albs, always question those in power - always :y
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I always have and always will. I also question the motives of people who purport to be helping a just cause,supposedly well meaning "campaigners for justice etc, and come to my own conclusions. ;)
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I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion. >:(
Many people.... the world over......myself included ....believe that Israel is the cause of many of the problems we have all been discusssing..(I think in quite a reserved and objective manner actually) We should all be allowed our opinions in much the same way as the people who are supporters of Israel are.
P.S. Nickbat....you seem to believe in "free speech"so long as people agree with you.....which in my case is almost never...... :) :) ;)
I couldn't agree with you more Optimist. This thread was designed to bring out debate about the latest actions of Israel which even senior Israeli's believe has been terrible PR for a regime that believes in physical force instead of good, sound, democracy. A senior Israeli politician (sorry didn't catch the name) yesterday stated this situation has "got to stop" with Israel taking a different approach over Gaza ;) ;)
As for the suggestion my protests, and any others made on here are anti-semetic amazes me. My family has Jewish roots, and there are many Jews now around the world expressing disgust over what Israel has done for the last few years; Israel does NOT represent the Jewish nation - it is a state like any other.
If this thread is removed then it will be the kind of anti democratic stance taken by the Nazis - yes I use that term deliberately. It means that only 'English' / 'Western' views can be expressed on this worldwide site. I am sure that individuals like Cem, whose nation has lost people in this latest Israeli fiasco, do not appreciate such a one sided view and control on debate.
However, if this thread is removed, I expect no further jokes or threads involving racial minorities, medically disadvantaged individuals, sexual orientation, gender, or any other subjects that could incite hatred, ridicule, or embarrassment. In addition no further discussions on Politics, Justice, The Police, the Environment, Green issues, etcv as it is bound to cause a debate with factions being identified and personal views being expressed, which may well cause offence to someone.
Those who preach the importance of "free speech", cannot at the same time object to the development of a polite thread when it goes against their particular view points.
So the price of that must be the application of very strong limits on what is allowed under "General Chat", or even the abolishion of that section if the admins so wish.
This is meant to be an adult community site which has a cosmopolitian membership and should be able to discuss "what is out there" politely without resorting to insults and accusations being made to each other.
If I have offended anyone then I apologise. ;) ;) ;) ;)
But let us resolve these matters please, on another thread perhaps!
Peace to all! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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blank me - u are a busy B!!
Tell me summat? How can u have the balls to come onto this topic about Israel with a pic of Adolph H. playing with himself - you are barking mad!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Haha never thought of that!! Purely for humour purposes only matey, not political ;D
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blank me - u are a busy B!!
Tell me summat? How can u have the balls to come onto this topic about Israel with a pic of Adolph H. playing with himself - you are barking mad!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Haha never thought of that!! Purely for humour purposes only matey, not political ;D
John, matey, ur timing is 'impeccable' - Luv it!! ;D ;D ;D
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I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion. >:(
Many people.... the world over......myself included ....believe that Israel is the cause of many of the problems we have all been discusssing..(I think in quite a reserved and objective manner actually) We should all be allowed our opinions in much the same way as the people who are supporters of Israel are.
P.S. Nickbat....you seem to believe in "free speech"so long as people agree with you.....which in my case is almost never...... :) :) ;)
I couldn't agree with you more Optimist. This thread was designed to bring out debate about the latest actions of Israel which even senior Israeli's believe has been terrible PR for a regime that believes in physical force instead of good, sound, democracy. A senior Israeli politician (sorry didn't catch the name) yesterday stated this situation has "got to stop" with Israel taking a different approach over Gaza ;) ;)
As for the suggestion my protests, and any others made on here are anti-semetic amazes me. My family has Jewish roots, and there are many Jews now around the world expressing disgust over what Israel has done for the last few years; Israel does NOT represent the Jewish nation - it is a state like any other.
If this thread is removed then it will be the kind of anti democratic stance taken by the Nazis - yes I use that term deliberately. It means that only 'English' / 'Western' views can be expressed on this worldwide site. I am sure that individuals like Cem, whose nation has lost people in this latest Israeli fiasco, do not appreciate such a one sided view and control on debate.
However, if this thread is removed, I expect no further jokes or threads involving racial minorities, medically disadvantaged individuals, sexual orientation, gender, or any other subjects that could incite hatred, ridicule, or embarrassment. In addition no further discussions on Politics, Justice, The Police, the Environment, Green issues, etcv as it is bound to cause a debate with factions being identified and personal views being expressed, which may well cause offence to someone.
Those who preach the importance of "free speech", cannot at the same time object to the development of a polite thread when it goes against their particular view points.
So the price of that must be the application of very strong limits on what is allowed under "General Chat", or even the abolishion of that section if the admins so wish.
This is meant to be an adult community site which has a cosmopolitian membership and should be able to discuss "what is out there" politely without resorting to insults and accusations being made to each other.
If I have offended anyone then I apologise. ;) ;) ;) ;)
But let us resolve these matters please, on another thread perhaps!
Peace to all! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
completely agreed Lizzie..
and if you want PR dont kill people .. simples..
-
I agree. This thread has become a depository for anti-Israeli bile, not informed discussion. >:(
Many people.... the world over......myself included ....believe that Israel is the cause of many of the problems we have all been discusssing..(I think in quite a reserved and objective manner actually) We should all be allowed our opinions in much the same way as the people who are supporters of Israel are.
P.S. Nickbat....you seem to believe in "free speech"so long as people agree with you.....which in my case is almost never...... :) :) ;)
I couldn't agree with you more Optimist. This thread was designed to bring out debate about the latest actions of Israel which even senior Israeli's believe has been terrible PR for a regime that believes in physical force instead of good, sound, democracy. A senior Israeli politician (sorry didn't catch the name) yesterday stated this situation has "got to stop" with Israel taking a different approach over Gaza ;) ;)
As for the suggestion my protests, and any others made on here are anti-semetic amazes me. My family has Jewish roots, and there are many Jews now around the world expressing disgust over what Israel has done for the last few years; Israel does NOT represent the Jewish nation - it is a state like any other.
If this thread is removed then it will be the kind of anti democratic stance taken by the Nazis - yes I use that term deliberately. It means that only 'English' / 'Western' views can be expressed on this worldwide site. I am sure that individuals like Cem, whose nation has lost people in this latest Israeli fiasco, do not appreciate such a one sided view and control on debate.
However, if this thread is removed, I expect no further jokes or threads involving racial minorities, medically disadvantaged individuals, sexual orientation, gender, or any other subjects that could incite hatred, ridicule, or embarrassment. In addition no further discussions on Politics, Justice, The Police, the Environment, Green issues, etcv as it is bound to cause a debate with factions being identified and personal views being expressed, which may well cause offence to someone.
Those who preach the importance of "free speech", cannot at the same time object to the development of a polite thread when it goes against their particular view points.
So the price of that must be the application of very strong limits on what is allowed under "General Chat", or even the abolishion of that section if the admins so wish.
This is meant to be an adult community site which has a cosmopolitian membership and should be able to discuss "what is out there" politely without resorting to insults and accusations being made to each other.
If I have offended anyone then I apologise. ;) ;) ;) ;)
But let us resolve these matters please, on another thread perhaps!
Peace to all! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
completely agreed Lizzie..
and if you want PR dont kill people .. simples..
Too true Cem! :y :y :y :y
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To be perfectly honest I DON'T WANT THIS TOPIC BINNED!!
I just wanted to make a point that maybe, just maybe the whole thing was getting way out of hand & wanted to see what reaction i would get!! :)
I've been waiting for Lizzie (who after all started this topic) to post her comments & i'm the first to say ''u havn't offended me with what u've written in the slightest'' :y
Freedom of speech is exactly that but it seemed to me that from certain quarters is was becoming more like 'propaganda!!'
Lizzie :-* i've thoroughly enjoyed threads posted by yourself on different topics in my very short time on this forum & hold you in very high esteem!! :y
All i will say is sometimes your views arn't shared by all & some of the posts on THIS topic have been rather one sided! (my opinion ::) - IMHO)
What made me post my reply 'originally' was -
What is the difference between making a 'joke' which was construded by 1 or 2 people as being racist & binned
and
Anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian jibes that could easily upset Jewish people - provocation! :-?
I THEREFORE 'RETRACT' MY REQUEST FROM HAVING THIS TOPIC BINNED :y
-
if you think this was heated, stick around a while longer :y ;D
-
Question to LizzieZoom & CEB ................
Are u two having an OOF affair cos u both seem so far up each others bottoms its making my eyes water!! :o ;D ;D ;D
To be honest i'm jealous that its not ''ME'' & Lizzie hahaha ;) :D :D :D
-
Question to LizzieZoom & CEB ................
Are u two having an OOF affair cos u both seem so far up each others bottoms its making my eyes water!! :o ;D ;D ;D
To be honest i'm jealous that its not ''ME'' & Lizzie hahaha ;) :D :D :D
no - its me and Nickbat having an illicit affair - all our arguing is just a ruse :y
-
To be perfectly honest I DON'T WANT THIS TOPIC BINNED!!
I just wanted to make a point that maybe, just maybe the whole thing was getting way out of hand & wanted to see what reaction i would get!! :)
I've been waiting for Lizzie (who after all started this topic) to post her comments & i'm the first to say ''u havn't offended me with what u've written in the slightest'' :y
Freedom of speech is exactly that but it seemed to me that from certain quarters is was becoming more like 'propaganda!!'
Lizzie :-* i've thoroughly enjoyed threads posted by yourself on different topics in my very short time on this forum & hold you in very high esteem!! :y
All i will say is sometimes your views arn't shared by all & some of the posts on THIS topic have been rather one sided! (my opinion ::) - IMHO)
What made me post my reply 'originally' was -
What is the difference between making a 'joke' which was construded by 1 or 2 people as being racist & binned
and
Anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian jibes that could easily upset Jewish people - provocation! :-?
I THEREFORE 'RETRACT' MY REQUEST FROM HAVING THIS TOPIC BINNED :y
Thanks for that Eliteomegaman and I accept your very fair comments completely :y :y :y With the private discussions we have had I rather thought you would not accuse me of being anti-semitic. ;) ;)
However I understand not everyone will agree with my comments and beliefs, as no one ever agrees with everyone all the time. That should never be a problem as long as everyone stays polite and handles it all in an adult manner. I sincerely hope that I can do on here the same as what I do in family or university debates; argue like heck, advancing usually educated, informed, and polite views, then retire afterwards to the wine and be friends, by then not adversaries, with all :D :D :D :D
I may argue and make strong points when debating with another strong minded and detirmined person on here, Nickbat, but at the same time I respect his right to express his views which often either come close or even agree with mine. 8-) 8-)
One things for sure we can never agree on all things together, but hopefully we can continue to have many more debates, which I for one will try and keep pleasant :y :y
Peace to all :-* :-* :-*
-
OOOOOOOOOO........
If I were a rich man,
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Yidle-diddle-didle-didle man.
That's how they speak in Israel you know ;D
-
To be perfectly honest I DON'T WANT THIS TOPIC BINNED!!
I just wanted to make a point that maybe, just maybe the whole thing was getting way out of hand & wanted to see what reaction i would get!! :)
I've been waiting for Lizzie (who after all started this topic) to post her comments & i'm the first to say ''u havn't offended me with what u've written in the slightest'' :y
Freedom of speech is exactly that but it seemed to me that from certain quarters is was becoming more like 'propaganda!!'
Lizzie :-* i've thoroughly enjoyed threads posted by yourself on different topics in my very short time on this forum & hold you in very high esteem!! :y
All i will say is sometimes your views arn't shared by all & some of the posts on THIS topic have been rather one sided! (my opinion ::) - IMHO)
What made me post my reply 'originally' was -
What is the difference between making a 'joke' which was construded by 1 or 2 people as being racist & binned
and
Anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian jibes that could easily upset Jewish people - provocation! :-?
I THEREFORE 'RETRACT' MY REQUEST FROM HAVING THIS TOPIC BINNED :y
Thanks for that Eliteomegaman and I accept your very fair comments completely :y :y :y With the private discussions we have had I rather thought you would not accuse me of being anti-semitic. ;) ;)
However I understand not everyone will agree with my comments and beliefs, as no one ever agrees with everyone all the time. That should never be a problem as long as everyone stays polite and handles it all in an adult manner. I sincerely hope that I can do on here the same as what I do in family or university debates; argue like heck, advancing usually educated, informed, and polite views, then retire afterwards to the wine and be friends, by then not adversaries, with all :D :D :D :D
I may argue and make strong points when debating with another strong minded and detirmined person on here, Nickbat, but at the same time I respect his right to express his views which often either come close or even agree with mine. 8-) 8-)
One things for sure we can never agree on all things together, but hopefully we can continue to have many more debates, which I for one will try and keep pleasant :y :y
Peace to all :-* :-* :-*
Lizzie, I HAVE NEVER & WILL NEVER ACCUSE ''YOU'' OF BEING ANTI-SEMITIC AFTER WHAT U TOLD ME OF YOUR FAMILIES/FATHERS PLIGHT!! SO IF I APPEARED TO POINT THE FINGER AT ''YOU'' IT WASN'T MENT TO BE & I APOLOGISE UNRESERVABLY TO ''YOU'' :-[ :-[ :-[
Shalom to one & all :) :) :)
-
Question to LizzieZoom & CEB ................
Are u two having an OOF affair cos u both seem so far up each others bottoms its making my eyes water!! :o ;D ;D ;D
To be honest i'm jealous that its not ''ME'' & Lizzie hahaha ;) :D :D :D
I always thought that Skruntie and Lizzie were an item........engaged to be married in fact....That's what Skrunts told me anyway..... ::) ::) :)
-
Question to LizzieZoom & CEB ................
Are u two having an OOF affair cos u both seem so far up each others bottoms its making my eyes water!! :o ;D ;D ;D
To be honest i'm jealous that its not ''ME'' & Lizzie hahaha ;) :D :D :D
;D ;D ;D
who knows what the future will bring ::) ::)
-
Question to LizzieZoom & CEB ................
Are u two having an OOF affair cos u both seem so far up each others bottoms its making my eyes water!! :o ;D ;D ;D
To be honest i'm jealous that its not ''ME'' & Lizzie hahaha ;) :D :D :D
I always thought that Skruntie and Lizzie were an item........engaged to be married in fact....That's what Skrunts told me anyway..... ::) ::) :)
Skruntie has a new love. He bought her a pair of glove to wear. ::)
-
To be perfectly honest I DON'T WANT THIS TOPIC BINNED!!
I just wanted to make a point that maybe, just maybe the whole thing was getting way out of hand & wanted to see what reaction i would get!! :)
I've been waiting for Lizzie (who after all started this topic) to post her comments & i'm the first to say ''u havn't offended me with what u've written in the slightest'' :y
Freedom of speech is exactly that but it seemed to me that from certain quarters is was becoming more like 'propaganda!!'
Lizzie :-* i've thoroughly enjoyed threads posted by yourself on different topics in my very short time on this forum & hold you in very high esteem!! :y
All i will say is sometimes your views arn't shared by all & some of the posts on THIS topic have been rather one sided! (my opinion ::) - IMHO)
What made me post my reply 'originally' was -
What is the difference between making a 'joke' which was construded by 1 or 2 people as being racist & binned
and
Anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian jibes that could easily upset Jewish people - provocation! :-?
I THEREFORE 'RETRACT' MY REQUEST FROM HAVING THIS TOPIC BINNED :y
Thanks for that Eliteomegaman and I accept your very fair comments completely :y :y :y With the private discussions we have had I rather thought you would not accuse me of being anti-semitic. ;) ;)
However I understand not everyone will agree with my comments and beliefs, as no one ever agrees with everyone all the time. That should never be a problem as long as everyone stays polite and handles it all in an adult manner. I sincerely hope that I can do on here the same as what I do in family or university debates; argue like heck, advancing usually educated, informed, and polite views, then retire afterwards to the wine and be friends, by then not adversaries, with all :D :D :D :D
I may argue and make strong points when debating with another strong minded and detirmined person on here, Nickbat, but at the same time I respect his right to express his views which often either come close or even agree with mine. 8-) 8-)
One things for sure we can never agree on all things together, but hopefully we can continue to have many more debates, which I for one will try and keep pleasant :y :y
Peace to all :-* :-* :-*
Lizzie, I HAVE NEVER & WILL NEVER ACCUSE ''YOU'' OF BEING ANTI-SEMITIC AFTER WHAT U TOLD ME OF YOUR FAMILIES/FATHERS PLIGHT!! SO IF I APPEARED TO POINT THE FINGER AT ''YOU'' IT WASN'T MENT TO BE & I APOLOGISE UNRESERVABLY TO ''YOU'' :-[ :-[ :-[
Shalom to one & all :) :) :)
Thanks! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
-
OOOOOOOOOO........
If I were a rich man,
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Yidle-diddle-didle-didle man.
That's how they speak in Israel you know ;D
''Oy Vey!!'' ::) (oh woe ;D) as they say in Yiddish :y
''Mazel Tov'' for knowing all the words & singing it so well ;D ;D ;D
Your defo a ''meshuggener'' (a crazy person but in a nice way!) ;)
I think in future i'll use Yiddish swear words so i won't be censored on this site (for a small back hander i'll give lessons ;D ;D ;D!!!!)
-
OOOOOOOOOO........
If I were a rich man,
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Yidle-diddle-didle-didle man.
That's how they speak in Israel you know ;D
''Oy Vey!!'' ::) (oh woe ;D) as they say in Yiddish :y
''Mazel Tov'' for knowing all the words & singing it so well ;D ;D ;D
Your defo a ''meshuggener'' (a crazy person but in a nice way!) ;)
I think in future i'll use Yiddish swear words so i won't be censored on this site (for a small back hander i'll give lessons ;D ;D ;D!!!!)
.....about 50% correct.... ;)
-
Question to LizzieZoom & CEB ................
Are u two having an OOF affair cos u both seem so far up each others bottoms its making my eyes water!! :o ;D ;D ;D
To be honest i'm jealous that its not ''ME'' & Lizzie hahaha ;) :D :D :D
;D ;D ;D
who knows what the future will bring ::) ::)
Maybe me & Lizzie could elope to Ankara which wud be a Turkish delight!! ;)
BUT if you touch my 'yenta' (a talkative woman) i'll stick cem(tec) - only joking - up your 'tukhus' (bottom) :D ;D :D ;D
-
autopsy report:
all dead shot from head -very close distance
one of them had 4 bullets on the head 1 on the chest..
this is named "self defence" :D ;D :D ;D
lies..lies..lies..
-
If this is true..........sounds more like EXECUTION to me!
-
If this is true..........sounds more like EXECUTION to me!
yep.. there are some other bad details but not necessary at the moment..
and must not forget the British woman..
she wrote a paper and walk to soldiers with the risk of being shot and tell them there are 38 wounded which they want to give to soldiers..
your place is in our hearts.. :y
-
Well our beloved Tony Blair, the MIddle East Envoy, has now come out (where has he been??????) and stated that the Gaza embargo MUST end.
With the USA and 'Tony' stating this, then just perhaps all sides can be brought together in a big peace push and end this affair for once and for all :-* :-*
Perhaps some good can come out of this terrible affair :D :D ;)
But I am not naive, so I am not holding my breath!! ::) ::)
-
Well our beloved Tony Blair, the MIddle East Envoy, has now come out (where has he been??????) and stated that the Gaza embargo MUST end.
With the USA and 'Tony' stating this, then just perhaps all sides can be brought together in a big peace push and end this affair for once and for all :-* :-*
Perhaps some good can come out of this terrible affair :D :D ;)
But I am not naive, so I am not holding my breath!! ::) ::)
Things will change and already started changing Lizzie, either this way or that way
for both sides..looking in Israel newspapers they are mostly defending themselves
and to our surprise some of them really query the mistakes ..
also its very obvious that internationaly most Jews living in other countries are not happy with the situation..
which will also effect the israel govt on the short or long term..
looking from our side , I'm afraid after the funeral today - although the problem seeming to be solved temporarily from outside world - in reality the problem is geared up to a higher level between us..and now its independant of triggering palestine problem (and of course it can trigger again).. I think both countries must be saved from their extremist govts.. with that mistake israel govt create a high vote potential here ready to be abused with the raising anger of crowds that can be hardly avoided..
and its not wrong to say; unexpectedly both countries central intelligencies had failed in the exam ..
On the background Usa, also was not ready for a situation like that.. which was also a surprise..
despite their "interesting" explanations that they give right to israel for security reasons as usual on the scene, now they began to see that this problem will also bring an extra cost and delay to their iran and middle east plans..
-
I don't want to be pedantic BUT its defo becoming the LizzieZoom/cem private discussion area
I'm worried that what-ever i post will either be ignored or shot down in flames (no pun intended).
I know my views on this as i've stated them on numerous occasions but i don't want to keep posting them in case people on here get bored!
I appreciate how important this topic is to both of you, honest, BUT would it not be better to pm each other? Just a thought :y
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I don't want to be pedantic BUT its defo becoming the LizzieZoom/cem private discussion area
I'm worried that what-ever i post will either be ignored or shot down in flames (no pun intended).
I know my views on this as i've stated them on numerous occasions but i don't want to keep posting them in case people on here get bored!
I appreciate how important this topic is to both of you, honest, BUT would it not be better to pm each other? Just a thought :y
You don't wish to perhaps look at a given situation from someone else's viewpoint? Or are you so sure of your convictions you don't need any more information?
Stop moaning - I get shot down in flames/ignored on a daily basis :y
Didn't realise you were so thin-skinned and precious :o
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I don't want to be pedantic BUT its defo becoming the LizzieZoom/cem private discussion area
I'm worried that what-ever i post will either be ignored or shot down in flames (no pun intended).
I know my views on this as i've stated them on numerous occasions but i don't want to keep posting them in case people on here get bored!
I appreciate how important this topic is to both of you, honest, BUT would it not be better to pm each other? Just a thought :y
You don't wish to perhaps look at a given situation from someone else's viewpoint? Or are you so sure of your convictions you don't need any more information?
Stop moaning - I get shot down in flames/ignored on a daily basis :y
Didn't realise you were so thin-skinned and precious :o
I get my daily information from the news channels & the press & like to make MY OWN mind up!
As for the other comment u so elequently wrote all i can say is - u don't know me :P and i'm certainly not forcing you too!! ;)
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I don't want to be pedantic BUT its defo becoming the LizzieZoom/cem private discussion area
I'm worried that what-ever i post will either be ignored or shot down in flames (no pun intended).
I know my views on this as i've stated them on numerous occasions but i don't want to keep posting them in case people on here get bored!
I appreciate how important this topic is to both of you, honest, BUT would it not be better to pm each other? Just a thought :y
You don't wish to perhaps look at a given situation from someone else's viewpoint? Or are you so sure of your convictions you don't need any more information?
Stop moaning - I get shot down in flames/ignored on a daily basis :y
Didn't realise you were so thin-skinned and precious :o
I get my daily information from the news channels & the press & like to make MY OWN mind up!
As for the other comment u so elequently wrote all i can say is - u don't know me :P and i'm certainly not forcing you too!! ;)
Sorry you feel like that Eliteomegaman!
I for one has decided from my point of view that no more can really be added to the debate on specifically 'the ship' incident. I am now just restricting making posts to emphasis the need for a settlement from both sides, with hopefully international pressure now to do so. But my comments are now from a neutral prospective, as it is in all sides interest to resolve not criticise, with hopefully really clever people helping the resolution process. :-* :-* :-*
Cem's situation is far closer to the issue, and it is his right as an international member to state his views as he so wishes. That is correctly, in an environment of free speech, his right. 8-) 8-) 8-)
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I don't want to be pedantic BUT its defo becoming the LizzieZoom/cem private discussion area
I'm worried that what-ever i post will either be ignored or shot down in flames (no pun intended).
I know my views on this as i've stated them on numerous occasions but i don't want to keep posting them in case people on here get bored!
I appreciate how important this topic is to both of you, honest, BUT would it not be better to pm each other? Just a thought :y
be sure your posts are not ignored..but there are deads and we are taken so close to the war..if you are disturbed by those posts simply dont read..
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I don't want to be pedantic BUT its defo becoming the LizzieZoom/cem private discussion area
I'm worried that what-ever i post will either be ignored or shot down in flames (no pun intended).
I know my views on this as i've stated them on numerous occasions but i don't want to keep posting them in case people on here get bored!
I appreciate how important this topic is to both of you, honest, BUT would it not be better to pm each other? Just a thought :y
You don't wish to perhaps look at a given situation from someone else's viewpoint? Or are you so sure of your convictions you don't need any more information?
Stop moaning - I get shot down in flames/ignored on a daily basis :y
Didn't realise you were so thin-skinned and precious :o
I get my daily information from the news channels & the press & like to make MY OWN mind up!
As for the other comment u so elequently wrote all i can say is - u don't know me :P and i'm certainly not forcing you too!! ;)
Sorry you feel like that Eliteomegaman!
I for one has decided from my point of view that no more can really be added to the debate on specifically 'the ship' incident. I am now just restricting making posts to emphasis the need for a settlement from both sides, with hopefully international pressure now to do so. But my comments are now from a neutral prospective, as it is in all sides interest to resolve not criticise, with hopefully really clever people helping the resolution process. :-* :-* :-*
Cem's situation is far closer to the issue, and it is his right as an international member to state his views as he so wishes. That is correctly, in an environment of free speech, his right. 8-) 8-) 8-)
Thanks Lizzie.. from now on I decided not to post any more ..as its really debated enough..
lastly
one point I wanted people to understand which is an answer to accusations of Netanyahu..
if the people on ships wanted to kill those soldiers
none of them would be alive now..
thanks Lizzie and all who spend time to read and answer my posts :y :y :y
rant over..
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There is a lot more I could (and would like to )add to this thread but I am going to bite my tongue because I think a lot of other members are probably fed up with it (and other threads similar).
time to let it lie imo. ;)